Cincinnati Gets Broadband Over Power Lines 609
kotj.mf writes "According to the Cincinnati Enquirer, Cincinnati-area electric utility Cinergy has become the first electric utility in the country to offer broadband over power lines. There's also a press release. At $29.95/month for 1 Mb/s both upstream and down, it's only a few bucks more than the local dialup providers. Can we expect the power companies to start giving Cable and DSL providers a run for their money? Finally, my town gets AHEAD of the times, for once."
And in other news... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:And in other news... (Score:2)
Re:And in other news... (Score:5, Insightful)
Uh, putting chili on spaghetti?
Having a city park graced by golden statues of winged pigs?
Having each of the following: a first rate art museum, a first rate botanical garden, and a first rate zoo?
I've only been there a few times, but seemed like a pretty cool place to me, even from my jaded coastal geek perspective.
Re:And in other news... (Score:5, Funny)
If they could deliver spaghetti chili via power lines, then I'd be impressed! Broadband is so passe.
Re:And in other news... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:And in other news... (Score:4, Interesting)
OH and that when people there dont understand you they say "Please ?" instead of "Excuse Me ?" or "Im sorry what was that ?" This always leads too all kinds of fun conversations the first time you visit.
Re:And in other news... (Score:5, Informative)
And yeah, the "please" thing confused me for the first few weeks of college (at UC). The other things were, they say "sweep" rather than "vacuum", and they leave out "to be", for instance, "the carpet needs swept".
Re:And in other news... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:And in other news... (Score:5, Funny)
Micropayments for hookers?
Dude, speak for yourself...
Re:And in other news... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:And in other news... (Score:5, Insightful)
WKRP on the Web [tvtome.com]
Tap in... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Tap in... (Score:5, Interesting)
Considering that the power line is (drum roll please) a giant freaking antenna, all you really need to tap into someone's traffic is a radio receiver.
Yay! Now we get to have the detriments of wireless systems (interference, monitoring by third parties, etc.) without any of the benefits of, well, being wireless.
Dumbest idea ever.
Re:Tap in... (Score:5, Insightful)
Because cable line was designed for wide-band signals: it's coaxial!
A power line, OTOH, is just a very long piece of wire.
Cable lines are shielded. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Tap in... (Score:3, Informative)
I can't wait! (Score:5, Funny)
signed, Les Nessman.
Re:I can't wait! (Score:4, Funny)
You can try it today : just solder a RJ-11 on your lamp cord and plug it to the modem. You'll get a really hot internet connection in no time flat!
Pretty soon I'll be surfing the way Al Gore meant us to!
Yes, the above method will allow you to do exactly that.
Re:I can't wait! (Score:3)
You may think you're joking, but you obviously haven't seen this [fiftythree.org].
"Only a few buck more"??? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:"Only a few buck more"??? (Score:3, Insightful)
Uhh... when it was only a few bucks to begin with?
1 mb/s upstream for $30? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:1 mb/s upstream for $30? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:1 mb/s upstream for $30? (Score:5, Insightful)
My god, it would be sublime! Comcast, AT&T, Charter, Cox (and any other big cable companies) charge $$$$ for upload speeds over 128kbps. And that's assuming that your in an area where they can offer those higher speeds to a residence, or bother to offer "commercial" service.
Comcast wants over $200 a month for a commercial service that offers 256kbps up. Cox, who I will be using after I move in 2 weeks, offers 3mb down / 256kbps up for $79. That's their commercial service. But..wait for it...for 3mb down / 384 up they want $325.00. I can't speak for AT&T or Charter specifically, as I have not recently lived in areas where either service is available.
If this type of broadband proves reliable, affordable to deploy, and sells for under $50.00 a month, cable companies are going to be in very big trouble...assuming they ignore the obvious.
Re:1 mb/s upstream for $30? (Score:5, Informative)
For 3mb down/384 up Cox charges only 199/mo, business account. At least here in phoenix.
Re:1 mb/s upstream for $30? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:1 mb/s upstream for $30? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:1 mb/s upstream for $30? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: can we expect... (Score:5, Interesting)
Ham Radio will interfere with it severely, and there won't be a damn thing the provider can do because it's under FCC part 15, which must accept any harmful interference, especially from PROPERLY LICENSED services. Of course, the same rules will also hold the power company for any interference caused to the amateur radio service. Don't expect this to be available for long. Maybe now everybody will see that it doesn't work and let the abomination die like it should.
Re: can we expect... (Score:2, Funny)
If you live in the Cincinatti area and have a HAM license, it's time to find some major power lines and start transmitting like your life depended on it!
HAM vs. BPL (Score:4, Interesting)
I think it is fair to say that the vast majority of computer/internet users would side with $30/month symmetrical 1Mbps.
Nothing personal and I'm not trying to offend anyone.
Re: can we expect... (Score:4, Insightful)
I still think that interference with government services on the HF bands will be the death, if not at least the curtailment, this technology. At the very least it cant be deployed near any government installation.
Re: can we expect... (Score:5, Informative)
Re: can we expect... (Score:3, Informative)
http://www.computerweekly.com/Article127428.htm
http://www.arrl.org/news/features/2003/07/08/
As well as the report recently on
Of course those that're looking to get your $29/mo are going to say it works!!
Re: can we expect... (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, but over here in our little corner of the universe we like to call "Rational Land," scientific "studies" conducted by for-profit organizations, especially when such studies appear to benefit said organizations, are considered highly suspect until corroborated by external researchers.
But thanks for playing.
Re: can we expect... (Score:4, Informative)
UNCORROBORATED? This is like asking for a study to see if people die when you shoot them! Wideband signals, when pushed through a long, unshielded wire, radiate. This is fact. Several very famous people in the 19th century figured this out.
Next stupid question? Perhaps you'd like an experiment to see if water freezes when you cool it?
Re: can we expect... (Score:5, Insightful)
The BPL trials have winked on and off so fast that no interference complaints could be logged. It takes a *lot* of time to document an interference complaint so that it is sufficient for an FCC filing.
The Part 15 industry is notorious for submitting "lab queens" to the FCC for certification. Especially the Part 15 devices that run on house wiring and over power lines... they only *model* the power lines, and the models are pathetically simple-minded -- the better to pass Part 15.
Part 15 is a cesspool of spectrum mismanagement and BPL is the biggest turd ever. What galls me is that the FCC should be playing honest broker here, but instead they are cheerleading a questionable technology.
Re: can we expect... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: can we expect... (Score:5, Informative)
Re: can we expect... (Score:4, Insightful)
BPL is RF pollution of the worst kind. It does NOT stop at your borders, quite on the contrary. It makes it impossible for millions of people all over the world to listen to a shortwave transistor radio, to get information, to be entertained and to connect with others.
BPL uses the entire shortwave spectrum and creates a noise floor that can be heard all over the world (Ever heard of shortwave propagation? Ever heard what BPL sound like? I guess not.). With your snotty narrowminded attitude you are in fact denying people their right to free access of information.
Cincinatti goes broadband with hundreds of watts of RF energy dissipated into the atmosphere and South America won't be able to listen to their AM radio stations anymore.
BTW, this is not about ham radio, even though I have had my ham radio license since 1979. No, this is about the millions of villages all over the planet, tuning into shortwave radio broadcasts as their only source of timely information. Hundreds of Millons of individuals will love Americans for denying them that.
Tyrrany of the minority, indeed. Since Americans barely represent 5% of this planet's population that statement fits the shoe perfectly, though I suspect it was made with a slightly different angle in mind in your case.
BTW, "I hope the hams can be given some other chunk of spectrum to operate with" is about as perfect a display of ignorance as I have seen, even here on
Re: can we expect... (Score:4, Insightful)
I thought the exact same thing as you. The issue is not interference with HAM operators -- that's just a side effect of the bigger issue.
The problem is that most people don't understand what RF even is. We need a good analogy that regular people can understand so they can appreciate the scope of the problem.
For instance, there are rules that state how bright and wide the beams can be on our vehicles headlamps. These guys are metaphorically attaching aerial flood lamps to a school bus so everyone in their vehicle can see for miles. The side effect is everyone else on the road is now blind. In this case the light is the transmitter and your eyes are the receiver.
How bout this one, your in a gym having a conversation with some friends -- then a marching band comes rolling in screamming the schools fight song. Guess who the band represents. Try carrying on your conversation now.
The FCC part 15 rules exist for a reason. We just need to make sure they are enforced.
I say let these guys launch the service then we can document the scope of the problems this technology creates before we crush them.
I like the idea of BPL. The power companys just need to run RF grade sheilded power lines first.
Oh, oops thats right. It would cost money -- alot more than just bribing the right senators.
Re: can we expect... (Score:3, Informative)
Re: can we expect... (Score:3, Insightful)
Changing radio frequencies is not all that easy. These are internationally chosen frequencies, because the HF
Re: can we expect... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: can we expect... (Score:5, Informative)
Broadband is good.
Broadband over powerlines - not so good.
Re: can we expect... (Score:3)
In other news, bread manufacturers are providing lots of evidence that the Atkins diet is crap.
ARRL says it interferes. The power company says it doesn't. Duh. I'd like to see some objective studies on this. Amateur radio has just as much right to exist as anything else in the spectrum. And it's true that power lines in general are quite good at causing RF interference. But I have not yet se
Re: can we expect... (Score:3, Informative)
Re: can we expect... (Score:3)
Of course, amatuer radio is present even in undeveloped countries and in some cases is the only way to communicate with someone other than the locals.
Don't assume that simply because the Internet has changed how communication is done that it is the end-all solution. What happens when an attack brings down the core routers? The Internet isn't quite as capable of routing around failures a
Re: can we expect... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:And you have no brain to think with... (Score:4, Funny)
Re: can we expect... (Score:4, Insightful)
-B
Re: can we expect... (Score:3, Funny)
Well, that's true, but for a reason... (Score:5, Insightful)
There's lots of ways to get good Internet feeds to folks; just look at what Robert X. Cringely has done with 802.11b. Look in the archives of his columns at www.pbs.org and see there are untapped alternatives.
To understand why we're concerned, go switch your hi-fi to AM, tune to a vacant spot between stations, and turn up the volume about half way. Then, try to have a phone conversation over a bad cellular connection with your ear six inches from the speakers, and you will still have an easier time communicating than hams will when we experience the 16 db over S9 interference already demonstrated by BPL.
I will make a small wager with you, shaka999. If you live within North America, I'll wager your state's or province's emergency plan counts on hams. So does your county's emergency plan, and your city's.
You see, hams _practice_ at getting data through emergency conditions. We do it at our expense, with equipment we buy, build and maintain ourselves, without government funds.
There's even a subsection of every national ham organization dedicated to emergency services. Yeah, I belong to one, and was out in the last ice storm, two months ago, delivering nurses to the local hospital because the roads were otherwise impassible, and the locals had already overloaded the cellular network to the point where a fast busy tone or "All Circuits Busy" signal was as likely as dial tone.
BPL threatens the entire ability to function on the frequencies needed the most for long-range communications, the HF bands. If this interfered with TV (VHF and UHF), well, everyone would kvetch, but instead the power companies have designed these systems to use HF (aka shortwave) frequencies.
Long range radio relies on HF, because it takes those lower frequencies to effectively bounce off the inner layer(s) of the ionosphere. Higher frequencies (VHF, UHF, SHF, microwave) just zip right through the F, F1 & F2 layers, so we can't do bank shots to get a signal from Earthquakestan to Resourceland to let them know how many units of Type A to send.
Satellite? Well, gee, that presumes the ground stations survived that quake/tornado/hurricane/typhoon, that the power didn't fail, and the phone lines to the earth station still work. Oh, yeah, and IF there's a free satellite channel for us, which NASA's problems have not made any easier.
Now, America's three-quarters of a million hams are not alone here, as you make it seem. The NTIA (National Telecommunications and Information Administration), who you'd expect to be gung-ho over more bandwidth to previously underserved areas, and also FEMA (Federal Emergency Management Agency), have gone on record to object. They document that BPL was a complete disaster, interference-wise, when tried in Japan. The Austrian trials are on hold because the power companies there were not able to rein in the interference.
But, it's Politics with a Capital P; who is beholden to whom, and who bought whom.
Now, you might say, 'well, if there's a disater, the power's down, right'? Not necessarily. BPL can cause interference for miles and miles, but if a hospital needs to call for blood, what's the power company supposed to do, shut down the entire grid?
Besides, remember that hams buy their own gear to practice and learn with. If we can't use HF, well, no one will buy new HF gear, no one will learn the tricks of HF (which is _very_ different than the skills needed for the garden-variety, talk-around-town two meter and 70 cm band users), and no one will bother to keep the automated packet netowrks in service, the digital backbones of the ham world which move the vast majority of message traffic.
Sometimes, _nothing_ but Morse ("the original digital") will get through, but with BPL jamming the HF spectrum, morse will become a dead letter.
I mean, man, you can put a bra on Michael Powell, and yuk it up all you want (see URL) but, damnit, these changes will *kill* people.
http://www.wweek.com/story.php?story=485
Symmetric speeds!? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Symmetric speeds!? (Score:5, Interesting)
Also, some might say this helps the whole "two-tier internet" with privileged hosts being the ones who serve, and regulars like us only being able to receive.
interference issues (Score:5, Interesting)
So? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:So? (Score:5, Insightful)
A better comparison, I would think, would be that this is 2/3rds of a T1, at a FRACTION of the cost!
I'm also wondering if b-over-p suffers from the same amount of network congestion problems as cable (and even DSL) are prone too....
Sounds ok on the surface...but (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Sounds ok on the surface...but (Score:5, Funny)
Doesn't bother me, I have a UPS, so my computer stays on during brief power outages. And now that the Internet comes over power lines, I'll have connectivity from my UPS too! I'm still jealous of my friend who's got a generator, though. He can generate his own power, and now he can generate his own Internet! Wish I could do that...
Will this work in apartment buildings? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Will this work in apartment buildings? (Score:3, Funny)
Well, pending that she's not as old as her hairdryer...
And power over ethernet. (Score:2, Insightful)
bad URL (Score:5, Informative)
Re:bad URL (Score:5, Funny)
That was a joke, son.
Gamers are going to LOVE this! (Score:3, Interesting)
I hope its a success (Score:2, Insightful)
Whats the data quota?
Would be nice to be able to have broadband without having to rely on a phone service being active.
I don't trust companies (Score:3, Funny)
That's why I use Not@Home cable service. [lostbrain.com]
tcd004
The effects of this on telcos and cable companies (Score:5, Insightful)
Once you have a megabit-per-second+ line, you can start talking about all sorts of things, including VoIP and video on delivery piggy-backing on national grid.
Re:The effects of this on telcos and cable compani (Score:3, Interesting)
On the impact to Telcos, Qwest has announced "naked" DSL where you don't need to purchase dial-tone to get DSL and one of the reasons they cited for packaging it that way was to compete with BPL.
uncap your connection! (Score:5, Funny)
A report from Cincinatti (Score:5, Funny)
Bigger band on the market (Score:5, Interesting)
Holey Shiiiet... (Score:5, Interesting)
1: Could someone with a properly configured radio reciever monitor traffic over this system wirelessly?
2: If it's possible to monitor signals with radio equipment, could you transit? Is it unreasonable to call this analagous to the power co. deciding they're going to switch all their equipment over a wireless network?
UPS boxes! (Score:5, Funny)
In the scottish trial (Score:3, Interesting)
Not the first time Cincinnati is ahead (Score:5, Informative)
Note that over the weekend Cincinnati Bell jumped residential broadband from 768kbs downstream to 3Mbit, without a rate increase! This is the second time they've significantly increased the bandwidth with no change in rates - the first time was just before the RoadRunner rollout. Long live competition!
You insensitive clods (Score:5, Funny)
Oh well, I guess I will be selling excess bandwidth back to the power company along with any extra power.
When do these winter clouds move out?
I'm from California (Score:5, Funny)
Speaking of which, wasn't Cincinnati one of the cities that got hit by the east coast blackout?
Re:I'm from California (Score:4, Informative)
I don't have much love for monopolies but Cinergy does seem to do a pretty good job of keeping the lights on.
Ham radio == Dinosaur (Score:4, Interesting)
1) if there's an emergency, the power's probably out, and ham will work anyway. If you want to practice, do what amateur astronomers do and go out in the country where I can guarantee they won't have this. It's nice to get out of the city anyway.
2) If ham radio dies, there will be something to replace it in your life. Most of the longtime computer users I knew where I grew up got into it in the Altair days as an extension of ham radio. If you don't want something different, well, I knew a lot of people that loved to ride 3-wheeled ATVs, and hated quads, but they got used to them. the times they are a-changin' and all that shit.
Don't drag down progress by clinging to an anachronism. Please.
Re:Ham radio == Dinosaur (Score:5, Insightful)
As to your first point, yes ham radio would work once the power was out (and BPL was off as it would be), but if you force people to go out to the middle of nowhere to practice, THEY WON'T. Besides which, one of the great points of BPL is that it runs over powerlines so it can be run sold to houses out in the middle of no where, because they're on the power grid. So you couldn't go out into the country unless you decide to trek a few miles into the middle of farmers fields where you won't be near a power line.
Yes, something will replace ham radio if it dies, but that doesn't make it OK to kill ham radio. If humans die, a new dominate speciese will probably appear after a few million years, does that mean we should kill all humans? After all, only a few species want/depend on humans. For many others, humans are "in the way" of their "progress". Same logic, just a rediculous example.
Also, how are riding 3-wheeled ATVs and riding 4-wheeled ATVs mutually exclusive? Nationwide deployment of BPL threatens to kill ham radio, but your friends can still ride a 3-wheeled ATV.
Ham radio does more than just FEMA stuff. Hams help with parades, marathons, races, triathalons, storm chasing, teaching electronic and radio theory to new people, providing a new and interesting way to communicate, all sorts of research, etc. Ham radio fosters good will with other countries. You can talk to other countries, meet interesting people, etc. In some remote areas (like in some island chains) ham radio can be a major source of interisland communication.
How would you like it if ATVs were banned from being used and sold because of their environmental impact? Why make the environment suffer for your little hobby. You could still ride bikes, you could switch to that. Quit holding back environmental progress by clining to some pointless hobby that doesn't even serve the community (like ham radio does)?
Don't drag down my hobby just because you don't care, please.
PS: All of this is ignoring that fact that my ham radio frequencies are protected BY LAW and that the power companys CAN NOT interfer with them. We're not just some group saying "don't kill our hobby", our hobby is legally protected.
If nothing... (Score:3, Interesting)
Internet monopolies (Score:3, Interesting)
You don't have to go back very far in slashdot to find articles about DSL, or wireless, either. What this tells me is that there is no need to use government monoploy power over any high-speed Internet ventures. Power companies are offering high-speed Internet access because they believe they can make a profit at it. Other companies (cable, DSL, satellite) think they have the best way.
The good news for us: We get to sit back and enjoy high-speed Internet at better availability and prices, and with no government interference. All thanks to the folks that brought you the free market!
In my neck of the woods (Score:3, Funny)
I keep suggesting that we do a wireless sewer, but no one ever listens.
Then again, I wonder if sewer gas conducts electricity? Could be onto something... But seriously, we may very well be laying down fiber optic cable alongside the sewer as it's installed. Just as long as both pipes end up with enough bandwidth...
This sounds cool! (Score:3, Insightful)
Usher in one tech, usher out another (Score:3, Interesting)
Is this really a good idea? (Score:4, Informative)
This isn't just a local problem either. Have a look at this report [www.ero.dk] from the ECC (they are a European agency) [NOTE: Sorry, it is in MS Word format]. They clearly believe that interference potential in the frequency range up to 30 MHz "are such that the risk of interference to radio services cannot be limited to a national or regional scale" (see the section entitled "General Conclusions of the report). This is a 112 page report, and while I freely admit I have not read all of it, they clearly say that this won't be a local problem, so just leaving the city isn't going to help. They go on to say that complete interference level restrictions won't work since so many devices currently give off interference in these ranges, but that the BPL (Called PLT in this report) will give "much higher" level of interference.
Several people in this tread have argued that amateur radio is a "dinosaur" or lived passed its usefulness. Many have already pointed out the problems with this. In many parts of the country, HF radio is the only reliable form of communication. In emergency situations HAM radio has proved itself many times over. Have a look here [aol.com] for instance. FEMA have defended the need for amateur radio on numerous occasions.
There is more at stake here than HAM. Have a look at this chart [doc.gov]. Of particular interest are the chunks that are noted as "Radio Astronomy". Have a look at this report [doc.gov]. Of note here is that the radio astronomy bands have issues with interference already. Solar and molecular cloud observations fall in these wavelengths. Do we really want to add to the pollution of the electromagnetic spectrum? The BPL system will also be subject to interference. This seems like a lose-lose situation to me.
What ports are open? Static or dynamic (Score:3, Interesting)
Wake me when they offer... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:What's so special about this? (Score:5, Interesting)
Indeed, a fairly high bandwidth pipe utilizing existing infrastructure. What's not "special"? The only line going into someones house that's more pervasive than the phone line are power lines. And no mention of dsl's distance woes. Big news indeed. If it comes here, I'm all over this.
Re:What's so special about this? (Score:5, Insightful)
I think it'll be good just for the extra competition to drive down the prices.
Re:What's so special about this? (Score:3, Funny)
Not true: Telephone service goes to 92.1% of U.S. households. [census.gov] Plumbing goes to [census.gov]
>99% of U.S. households.
Not that I'm proposing IP-over-water-pipes or anything...
Re:What's so special about this? (Score:4, Insightful)
Think of a giant unshielded antenna that spans hundreds or thousands of miles. yee-haw
Dumb-ass power companies trying to make a buck.
Re:What's so special about this? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:What's so special about this? (Score:4, Interesting)
ARES, Amature Radio Emergency Services, steps up with the communications infrastructure is gone, due a disaster, natural or man-made.
Basically, a bunch of well-trained hams setup radio stations and manage the creation of an ad-hoc radio communications infrastructure when the main one goes down.
The World Trade Center had communcations by end of day, or end of the next day due to ARES going into motion and getting base-stations setup, probably all running on generators, so that those on-site trying to find survivors could communicate with each other and the outside world.
Now, with BPL, while you're trying to get this setup (becase the land-lines are gone, and the cell system is a laughingstock that's overran by people trying to call home), you've got the powerlines all radiating a ton of crap out in the airwaves. This is probably people trying to use their internet connection, even though the power's out, and they've got their generator running (those of us in certain more rural areas pretty much are required to own one to stay funcitonal).
All that background noise just makes it that much harder to communciate.
Re:What's so special about this? (Score:5, Insightful)
How about less than either cable or DSL pricing?
How about available anywhere you have power (which computers usually need to operate)?
As soon as it's available in my AO, I'll be jumping ship from my current provider.
How about RTFA?
Re:Yay? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Yay? (Score:4, Informative)
This has already been discussed ad-infinitem, but apparently all the moderators haven't been listening, so here it goes again.
There are several major problems with that.
1) It may be likely that transmitter does not have power, but it is equally likely that he will need to contact people who do.
2) The major reason that ham radio is usefull in emergencies is because there is an active community of people that find ham radio a enjoyable recreation. Get rid of that and you will have less ham operators.
3) There are all sorts of emergencies where people still have power, but HAM is needed. Doesn't anyone remember 9/11? The powerlines were fine, but the phone, cell, and internet were all completly saturated.
Re:Just Cincinatti? Vendors in three states... (Score:3, Informative)