Fixing Security Through Obscurity? 66
LineNoiz asks: "I work as a junior developer at a small company that sells check printing software. One of my company's favorite things to tell customers is how secure our product is and how it will reduce check fraud (we even sell check fraud insurance). I cringe everytime I hear them say it, because I know that it is 'secure' only because of it's relative obscurity. I personally know very little about security, and really have no idea what it would take to make our product secure. All I really know is that this is a problem waiting to happen. How can I convince my managers that our security is nothing to brag about? How can I convince them to spend the time and money to make it secure? Where can I myself go to learn more about security and what it would take to make/keep it secure?"
convincing the managers (Score:3, Insightful)
The risky way would be to create and demonstrate an exploit. Et voila, they're convinced.
Of course, you run the risk of being replaced by a security-knowledgable programmer once you do so.
To help you convince them, learn about security, and present a fix for the problem. Then tell them they can REALLY go crazy on the security promotion aspect once they do so. Help them sell the product, and you may be sitting in the cat-bird seat, whatever that is.
Re:convincing the managers (Score:5, Informative)
"Security" features on checks usually are only to prevent someone from photocopying the check, and do nothing to stop someone with a box of checks and a laser printer. No matter what you do while printing the check, Checks are not secure. Most businesses print their checks, and print them in the same manner as I just described, and there is nothing that can be done about it, because banks will cash any valid check, which means only that the account number and signature must match their records (you could write the information on a napkin and the bank would take it, it is a valid check), and banks will rarely flag a check for a bad signature.
If someone gets one of your "secure" checks from a client of this guy's company, orders a box of checks from them, and prints checks, then even the client may not realize that they didn't write the check. That's how checks are, deal with it. If you don't trust the person you're writing a check to, don't use a check, it's just that simple. By the way, it is amazing to me how the banks always say "don't give out your account information to anyone" (and no, I'm not talking about PINs) when it's printed on every check. The only thing worth making "secure" (as in unable to be scanned/photocopied) about a check is the signature line, and very few companies do this, since the only effective means I know of to do this requires a color laser printer and an electronic signature image. (red/black printing scheme, etc).
Missing the point (Score:1)
I guess they have some sort of software which allows people to order cheques remotely (either dial up or internet) and have them sent to their business or house etc. This poses the security risk.
Re:Missing the point (Score:2)
Re:Missing the point (Score:1)
As for your good and perfectly valid questions, you are right: checks are inherently insecure. It's not the checks that we secure (although storing bunches of
Re:Missing the point (Score:1)
Re:Missing the point (Score:3, Insightful)
That's not the impression I got.
This guy was really vague about the security concerns he had -- I guess he must believe in the "security through obscurity" method.
Frankly I think this was way too generic of an Ask Slashdot. If he'd said whether his security concerns were regarding the products that we sold (and again, since they're pieces of paper I'm not sure how you can "secure" them), the software used to print t
Re:convincing the managers (Score:1)
Umm, commercial-class check software produces a list of checks that were printed, and cleared by an authorized human being at the company. Each of these files is sent to the bank who holds the account the check was written against. The banks check against these records when the check is processed, then it comes back to the company in a file of cleared checks. Many banks are using thumbprint ID on checks, and photocopy your ID if you aren't an accountholder.
Also, all of our checks have the signature pr
Re:convincing the managers (Score:2)
Re:convincing the managers (Score:2)
Is this really true? I'm not familiar with the laws regarding negotiable instruments, they are weird. Is it the case that if I owed someone money and didn't have a checkbook, I could make a check from scratch with a pen and scrap paper and the bank would honor it so long as it included the right information?
Re:convincing the managers (Score:1)
Re:convincing the managers (Score:1, Funny)
That's like saying that the way to demonstrate that guns are deadly is to kill someone. Et voila, tres stupid.
Re:convincing the managers (Score:2)
Dont knock it (Score:1)
Another point- he says his company sells insurance. I would at this point bet this insurance comes from an outside underwriter, and thus their company has their liability covered.
Give it up, you will never get the company to spend money on security. There is no reason to: they are insured! The mess-up wont cost them anything, but being proactive will. Lets say something gets messed up; I bet they get enough money fro
Re:Dont knock it (Score:2)
You don't seem to know what "security through obscurity" _means_, if you think that's what Linux & the *BSDs rely on.
re: insurance
If the security problem (whatever it is) becomes publicly known, that could damage business, insurance or no, and could cause insurance premiums to go up, conceivably, so it's in their best interests to fix this ASAP, whether they go public with that knowledge or not.
Re:Dont knock it (Score:1)
They are focused on making their service instrumental to their client's checking process; why else would they LIE about the capabilities of their service, and use insurance as some kind of quality assurance? Its perfectly obvious what they are doing.
My prediction: "Office Guy" goes into bosses office, tells them their product isnt as secure as they say it is. Presents ideas for improving product. Ne
Good troll! (Score:3, Informative)
You even admit to not knowing where it is insecure, or what needs to be addressed in order to secure it. This is a beautiful troll.
Re:Good troll! (Score:2)
Moderators, please mod parent up, mod grandparent way down.
Hmmmm.... (Score:5, Funny)
Your company makes check writing software.....
You want to show them that their software is insecure....
Your Poor. They have checks. Things are insecure.....
Hmm....
Re:Hmmmm.... (Score:1, Funny)
1. You're an underpaid jr. developer....
2. Your company makes check writing software.....
3. You want to show them that their software is insecure....
4. Your Poor. They have checks. Things are insecure.....
5. ???
6. Profit!
Sounds like a very secure system to me (Score:5, Insightful)
Go and write a million lines of security software and don't provide the guarantee - it isn't worth as much to the customer.
What you have to realize is that it is an easy equation for your company
How many reimbursements do they have to pay out on an annual basis. vs. How much will it cost to lower that number.
I am betting they are paying out pretty close to 0 in reimbursements (which is why they are advertising this)- how much of your salary will it take to make the product even slightly more secure ?
Re:Sounds like a very secure system to me (Score:3, Interesting)
How long will the company stay in existence to pay this poor guy's salary if someone discovers and exploits the vulnerability? Do they have the cash reserves to pay off these reimbursements if they start coming in, or will they just fold into bankruptcy?
Re:Sounds like a very secure system to me (Score:2)
Just like those companies that make el cheapo hardware with a lifetime warranty. Warranty's useless if the company goes away!
Then reincorporate under a slightly different name (maybe in a different state), tell all the customers that haven't had problems that you had a corporate restructuring and please update the name in their records.
Et voila'! Yer back in business for the cost of a couple hundred dollars in filing fees...
Re:Sounds like a very secure system to me (Score:1)
Just forget it (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Just forget it (Score:3, Insightful)
Wow, are you available to work? I'd LOVE to hire you!
Looking out for the company's best interests, outside of your own small role, shows that you are interested in the company doing well and, even if nothing comes of it, will help when promotion time comes around.
Re:Just forget it (Score:2)
Sadly, this isn't the reality in many companies. In my experience, initiative may be encouraged on paper, but it's frequently discouraged by culture.
Many security problems are known, but are ignored for political reasons. The person ignoring the problem may very well be your supervisor, or an entr
Re:Just forget it (Score:5, Informative)
One thing to remember, you are a junior developer and you will rock the boat if you are not walking-on-eggshells-careful. This is true even in a good economy.
Trust me, I used to rant about things broken in IT. I was respected for having a lot of knowledge and insight in IT. However much I still believe I was right, I learned, years later that attitude and patience will pay off more than brilliant ideas.
An old saying has to do with attracting flies with honey. Learn that and learn all you can about security on your spare time, to buttress your claims. Show them how good and knowledgable a worker you are, to convince them your opinion is valid.
Don't tell them they are wrong. Just factually show them how they could improve.
(I wrote this in about 3 minutes, so if it doesn't appear coherent, read it again, without mentally spell checking and grammar checking. Sorry about the clutter.)
Re:Just forget it (Score:1)
Re:Just forget it (Score:1, Insightful)
I outlined the faults in a less than subtle way to the GM with general solutions on how to solve this (pick what you lock, update and subtract, etc). I was fired within the week.
6 months later I read of a milli
learn how to hack (Score:3, Interesting)
Java Cryptography [amazon.com] was another informative read.
On the Internet (Score:1)
-- J. Michael Straczynski
Art of the Steal (Score:3, Interesting)
"Art of the Steal" aims to teach how to avoid getting scammed, in business and at home. It is definitely lacking in some areas, such as computer security, but does offer some useful advice and it might be handy in opening management's eyes to some of the threats to security.
Re:Art of the Steal (Score:1, Funny)
Why do you care? (Score:1)
Why do you care? Shut up! Take your wages. If that bothers you, find a new job.
PS - if you do talk to your boss and you do get fired, how many years will you be out of work while he's still being paid his salary. think about it - who hires a sysadmin fired for security concerns.
Re:Why do you care? (Score:1)
1) Your company's software is insecure (neglegence)
2) They tell their clients it *is* secure (fraudulent advertising)
3) You know about it (blackmail)
get hacked! (Score:2)
``secure'' (Score:2)
Reading list (Score:2)
Applied Cryptography [amazon.com] will take you trhough the technical aspects of it, as well as presenting some of the attacks you can/might expect.
Secrets and Lies is a more business focused book, and while it won't give you technical tools, the discussion on attack trees is a great intro to building a coherent security policy.
The thing to remember about security is that it is an active process. In simplest terms: Put up an obstacle, identify w
Re:Reading list (Score:2)
Specifics (Score:5, Interesting)
By "obscurity", do you mean it's not a well known product?
I'm going to jump out on a limb here and guess that if you're going around making check software, then someone in the company actually spent a number of minutes x (with x >> 5) thinking about security in the product.
Here's an idea. You're a junior developer, right? Why not sidle up to a senior developer and say, "Hey, can we talk for a moment?" Tell them you've recently become interested in security and learning more about it. Ask them what the current security for your products is. If there isn't really any, ask them if they know if competitors use any kind of security features, saying something like, "I'll bet it would make our product look better if we could tell potential customers that we use x, y, and z to make our products secure." If he or she doesn't sound interested, evaluate how this makes you feel about working there. It probably isn't a good idea to make this a crusade; it'll just make you look mean spirited if you push through your senior developers. You can choose to stay in the company, knowing the product isn't fully secure, or if security is your thing, you can move to a company that's more secure.
Think about a worst case scenario: someone writes a series of checks that are bad. That's not impossible to happen with normal non-computer generated checks anyways. It could potentially be a lot of money -- perhaps -- but credit card fraud is generally a lot easier to perpetuate. Most check fraud that does occur is people writing big checks on their own accounts that bounce, or it's people just forging checks, neither which you or your company have any part in.
If you were in a company storing electronic medical records or bank accounts, then security through obscurity would be pretty catastrophic. But I'm guessing that you're blowing this out of proportion.
Re:Specifics (Score:1)
I investigate fraud for a major bank. The vast majority ( > 75%) of cases we get are counterfeit check cases. It is extremely easy to create checks that almost any retail store will accept.
Use a friend (Score:2)
Talk with him about what sort of questions to ask the salesman, and possible resposnses to weasel replies. Do NOT divulge any trade secrets.
Then have him call up to get a sales pitch.
A salesman bitching to management about a lost sale because of lousy security may be listened to more than a tech.
Do your homework (Score:5, Informative)
Developers, especially young ones, often see things that they think need to be changed, and get frustrated when management seems to ignore their concerns. In many cases, the techies are actually right, but they don't understand that (a) there are many, many issues to be considered that they don't know about and (b) simply claiming that a problem exists isn't enough. You also have to communicate the problem and its solution clearly and effectively, without rocking the boat.
The solution in all cases, not just in issues of security, is to do your homework. When presented with a thoughtful, detailed, documented analysis of a problem, its potential *business* impacts, and a recommended solution, managers generally do take note.
In this case, if you really care about the issue, there are some things you can do that will almost guarantee that you'll be listened to:
First, you need to both educate yourself and construct and analyze a threat model. The "education" in question is more about business and risk analysis than, say buffer overflows and leaky protocols, and the process of building and analyzing the threat model will give you a lot of it.
A threat model generally consists of the following major areas:
After you've created the threat model, you need to analyze it. To do that, you need to try to quantify all of the elements of the model. In the business world that ultimately comes down to assigning dollar values to everything. For each attacker, try to figure out how much they could steal by attacking the system. Even harder, try to quantify the value of attacks for ideological reasons (if any). For each risk, quanitfy how much the company stands to lose if the risky situation happens. For each avenue of attack, try to quantify the cost of performing the attack.
Once you have dollar values for everything (many will have to be expressed as ranges, and all will be built on guesswork), look to see if there is any combination of motivated attacker, risk and avenue that looks like a "good attack". That's an attack in which it's in the attacker's best interest to perform the attack, taking into consideration the possible negative effects as well as the benefits, the attacker's motivates, access, resources, etc.
Think long and hard about all of the good attacks, try to assign probabilities to them based on everything you've learned (plus another crapload of guesses, of course) and you should able to come up with an expected cost for each of them.
The last stage of the analysis is to try to guess at the cost of fixing them. Don't even bother trying to think about financial "benefits" of fixing them... "You can tell all the customers that its *really* secure!" doesn't mean much because they can *already* tell the customers that. It may not be true, but you're wandering into marketing, where truth is... flexible.
You're not
Re:Do your homework (Score:1)
Which is it? (Score:2)
Re:Which is it? (Score:1)
I played around with a cracking tutorial a while back. I applied the concepts in the tutorial to our product. It took me all of five minutes to crack the activation scheme.
Out of boredom, one day I decided to try and break through our encryption (this was before I became a developer). Turns out its a simple byte-shifting algorythm.
So, I know very little. That's enough to recognize weaknesses, but not exactly enough to come up with a
Re:Which is it? (Score:2)
Re:Which is it? (Score:1)
You should have explained that earlier. This makes a big difference. You're now faced with a dilemna. Make stink and risk your job, or keep your head low and don't make waves. The middle road of bringing the issue up in a job-safe manner is tricky. You know more about your company's internal politics than I do.
At my company I replaced the security on an embedded system. The old method
We'll Figure it Out (Score:1)
Umm what company do you work at? (Score:2)
Good thing your email address is from a yahoo domain.
It still might just be possible that the cost of hiring security specialists/developers in the long term is more costly than paying through insurance the very occasional mishap.
And as you mentioned it is a check printing app. The one we use just runs in a windows2000 server and prints to a network d
You can't convince them. (Score:2)
Insurance may be your answer (Score:2)
Now, the way insurance works is that someone computes the risk, defined by the equation
where R is the risk, P is the probability of the undesirable event, and H is t
Make money fast! (Score:1)
2) Get hired
3) Print checks bypassing the poor security
4) Profit!
Re: (Score:1)