Top University Rankings for 2004 Released

jemecki writes "US News and World Report has posted their annual rankings for the top colleges and universities in America. Of particular interest to Slashdotters are the top Computer Engineering and Electrical Engineering universities and the top overall engineering schools. For those that don't want to RTFA, Harvard and Princeton are the best in the country, and MIT, Stanford and Berkeley are the best in Engineering."

What???

[SoCalChris]

No Hollywood Upstairs Medical School??? That's unpossible!

Re:What???

[tigertigr]

How about Springfield Heights Institute of Technology!?!

Engineers Drinking Song came from MIT

[BigBlockMopar]

Of course MIT is the best engineering school - they have the best understanding of engineers!

MIT Traditonal, The Engineer's Drinking Song [mit.edu], as sung by engineers worldwide.

Search for it on Kazaa, you'll find the Chorallaries excellent version.

"Premium login"??

[connsmythe96]

I can only see 3 schools listed. Why post the article if we have to pay to see more than 3 schools in the list?

Am I missing something?

Re:"Premium login"??

[brakk]

Obviously you didn't go to one of those schools if you can't figure it out.

Re:"Premium login"??

[Spamhead]

Here is the rest of the list:

4 - A way overpriced institution of higher learning.
5 - A way overpriced institution of higher learning.
6 - A way overpriced institution of higher learning.
7 - A way overpriced institution of higher learning.
.
.
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Re:"Premium login"??

[yintercept]

Over priced education is great when you get the government or your parents to pay for it. BTW, I keep hearing students' at the local state run schools complaining about tuition now that the government can no longer pay for it. Tuition has been increasing by 10% a year.

But, in the hey day...man, Universities could really rack up the bills as they lavished the perks on the insiders and administrators.

"Overpriced?"

[Anonymous Coward]

As someone who works in higher ed, I get a bit tired of this.

Guess what: higher ed is expensive. I work at a very expensive private college. Assuming that you were to pay full freight for everything (few do), you would pay $11k/year less than it actually cost us to provide you the classes, services, room+board, etc.

So how do we do it? Volume! No, really we make it up by grants, donations and endowment income. The latter has been in the tank over the past few years, the former has been a lot tighter as well as all those insta-zillionaires watched their stock profits vaporize.

Cuts? Sure. My department's budget is down 25%, we're running 20% low on staff. We're under hiring freeze, we're putting off needed renovations (Library+leaky roof = bad news) we've stopped replacing computers in labs, we have cut adjunct profs and reduced the courses taught, etc, etc. And guess what: the budget still doesn't balance. We're eating our endowment to stay alive until the good times return. (And that's with the amazingly lower salaries in higher ed: you think you can get a PhD with 20 years of experience for $80k/year in industry? Our president makes a whopping $165k: a CEO of a similar sized corporation would clear a million easy.)

We're one of the lucky ones. We've got enough endowment to survive for quite a bit longer without layoffs. We even got a small raise this year.

But overpriced? No way: it just costs a hell of a lot to run a college.

Re:"Overpriced?"

[Jeff DeMaagd]

The problem is that in my experience, colleges have typically been increasing their per student spending by _twice_ that of inflation for maybe thirty years. Caltech spent nearly $200,000 per student per year? What the HELL are they spending it on?! That has to be enough for nearly three personal tutors from your high-earn industries.

I know that a lot of stuff is expensive but then I've seen a lot of money thrown around to suit the whims of administrators and to keep the "image" up rather than focusing

Value in education

[siskbc]

Guess what: higher ed is expensive

Yes, it's expensive for some, but it doesn't have to be expensive for the student as much as for the state. My education, had I not been on scholarship, would have been $3000 for year. From this, I am now in a top 5 graduate school. I graduated from undergrad in the black.

So what I learned is this: the best value is either one of the best schools in the country, or a good public school in your state. On the other hand, $25,000 for a fourth-tier private school isn't a

Not exactly true

[FallLine]

While I come from a family that was able to easily afford this kind of tuition 4 kids at top flight universities, I must say that this system is not even remotely fair and it is a real burden on more middle class families (including some of my friends and peers). Sure, if your parents are working near minimum wage jobs AND you meet their academic criteria (a rare group), then the system will normally cover all your expenses. However, if you are unfortunate enough to have more successful parents who spent and saved wisely, then you WILL be penalized. It is a perverse system because it penalizes thrift and rewards spending. For instance, one of my friend's parent bought a house about 30 years ago now in Seattle, while they otherwise lived very modestly, their relatively modest house appreciated in value to roughly 700K (from the 100K or so it cost before). The schools only needed to see the house to decline any substantial financial aid. The parents couldn't realistically sell short of moving to a very different part of town (not to mention leaving their friends, house, job, etc). My friend couldn't ask her parents to sell. The end result was that she was forced to attend a state school. This is perverse because her parents worked harder than most people, were more educated, etc. Meanwhile other (less capable) peers of mine, whose parents certainly earned more money than the friend I just described, but saved little, were able to enjoy substantial financial aid without their parents having to alter their lifestyle substantially.

I am sorry, but I tend to believe that we should reward hard work in this country. The system really damages that. The truth is these schools are WASTING a lot of money, some of the top schools are even charging more than they need to (but keep it high to keep their prestige and admissions in check), and then justifying it by saying that the financial aid system makes all right. Well, it doesn't. The system sucks for a lot of people. If you're rich, it's not too bad. If you're poor and you're fortunate enough to be admitted, then you're set (but also quite rare). I don't even consider myself much of a social crusader, but I truly consider it regressive, even if the pretense is "progressive". Those 2nd and 3rd generation families, whose families otherwise moved quickly up the social ranks hit an unnecessarily steep wall when it comes to entering the elite schools.

Take a look at a school like Princeton some time (if that's where you're going). Almost all the students are white and upper middle class or higher and most frankly aren't that impressive academically or otherwise. Sure, most students will have a modicum of intelligence, but more importantly they know how to work the system. If you truly leveled the playing fields economically, you'd still see a large percentage coming from more affluent families (because they are most likely to have benefited from superior educations and may even be a little smarter on average), but I assure you that you'd see a lot more kids from blue collar and clerical backgrounds. This is really not a system the delivers "fairness" OR the most capable students (because it cuts out a large percentage of students, those somewhere between rich and poor).

Real socio-economic advancement is happening, by and large, by bypassing these elite institutions entirely, by attending lesser schools (or at least less recognized ones), but nonetheless succeeding in fields that reward true hard work, skill, intelligence, and risk taking behavior (e.g., business, engineering, etc). It doesn't have to be that way and it has gotten dramatically worse over the past decade or two as tuition has climbed...

Signed,

A person who has little direct cause for complaint.

Re:Not exactly true

[humblecoder]

I feel compelled to respond to your post, mainly because you mentioned my alma mater (Princeton) in a disparaging way.

On the topic of financial aid, what you say was largely true at one time. However, the situation has gotten A LOT better. The financial aid rules have been reformed over the past 10 or so years so the inequities that you mention have been reduced.

When I was going through college (class of 93), the financial aid formula assumed that something like 80% of assets in a student's name would be used towards tuition, while only something like 20% of assets in the parent's name would be used (I don't remember the exact figured, but you get the idea). If the family had saved money in the names of somebody else, like a sibling or a grandparent, those assets wouldn't be used in the financial aid calculation AT ALL. This ended up penalizing students like myself whose parents had saved money in my name. On the plus side, after the first year when all the assets in my name had been exhausted, my financial aid got A LOT better. Anyway, this rule has been reformed so that assets in the student's name aren't penalized as much.

There have been other reforms to the financial aid system. For instance, home equity isn't included as heavily in your parent's assets. Your friend whose parent's house appreciated in value wouldn't have hurt them as much today. Also, I know that Princeton recently announced that they would eliminate loans from their financial aid packages and replace them with grants.

All these things taken together show me that college administrators are listening to people's complaints about aid.

One area in which Princeton falls short is in their switch from Early Action to Early Decision. Under Early Decision, if you apply early and are offered admission, you are obligated to go. This does hurt students because if you are concerned about financial aid, you are discouraged from applying early because you don't know what your bill is going to look like. It's sort of like agreeing to buy a car without knowing what the sticker price is. If a car dealer did it, Ralph Nader would be all over this issue. However, since Nader is Princeton Alum, I guess he thinks it's okay!

Also, you mention how Princeton is not very diverse. If anything the elite school bend over backwards to show how diverse they are, even if they have to lower their standards. Of course, that is a debate for another day....

Re:Not exactly true

[FallLine]

All these things taken together show me that college administrators are listening to people's complaints about aid.

I disagree. If they really were concerned, then they'd lower tuitions dramatically (I know at least one of these top schools can by roughly 10K this year as I have some inside information (which I'll not name)--without having to change a thing really--others can by trimming the fat). Paying less attention to net worth in housing may have helped my friend, but it still leaves millions of students out in the cold. What about parents who own small businesses (e.g., sole proprietorships, partnerships, etc)? What about parents who simply save more? Why should they be penalized heavily for saving, investing, etc? Why should we penalize people who work harder? Part of what drives MANY parents to succeed is to ensure that their children have the best opportunities possible. This system creates a lumpy and messy system where you can work harder and succeed more and ultimately be left worse off as far as sending your kids to a top school goes. Many assets simply can't by transfered or shifted around that easily. I realize that a good number of parents simply can't make it without financial aid, no matter how hard they try, but please realize that the financial aid system is an aweful compromise.

Also, you mention how Princeton is not very diverse. If anything the elite school bend over backwards to show how diverse they are, even if they have to lower their standards. Of course, that is a debate for another day....

Well Princeton is one of the worst in that respect. Part of my problem is that they go about seeking diversity in the wrong way. They all too often seek out students that they can describe as African American whose experiences are often either that of an upper middle class person OR lower class (and ilprepared to compete in serious programs), but then effectively reject the many many more students, such as those of recent immigrants (many of whom have real stories to tell), between lack of consideration and lack of financial aid, even though they are very very capable of competing with those students. All too often they admit people that just can't cut it in a serious fields of study.

Also, I know that Princeton recently announced that they would eliminate loans from their financial aid packages and replace them with grants.

I've heard and I think it's a real mistake. Either the parents OR the students should at least pay something. Moderate student loans and work study programs are not overly onerous and they can go a long way to keep people honest, to make sure they really want to go there, etc. It shouldn't be viewed as an entitlement.

Re:Not exactly true

[edwdig]

You said that after your first year, your financial aid went up because your assests had been exhausted. That's definately not the norm. I just graduated from Stevens Institute of Technology in May. Every year tuition went up and my aid went down. Everyone else I talked to had the same thing happen to them.

Towards the end of the .com boom, I got a part time coding job making decent pay. That resulted in a huge drop in my financial aid, despite the fact that almost all the money went towards covering the dr

Surely you jest!

[jhylkema]

Real socio-economic advancement is happening, by . . . nonetheless succeeding in fields that reward true hard work, skill, intelligence, and risk taking behavior (e.g., business . . .

The business world rewards intelligence and risk-taking behavior? My Introduction to Management textbook said, "the people who get promoted often are not the best workers, but the best politicians." In my experience, it's quite often the people who exhibit "intelligence and risk taking behaviors" are the ones who are labeled "management issues" or "not a team player" or "not a Company man" and are let go. Why? They represent a threat. No, there is tremendous pressure to get along by going along at the expense of these very attributes. All too often, this meets with disastarous [nasa.gov] results.

No, I don't.

[FallLine]

The business world rewards intelligence and risk-taking behavior? My Introduction to Management textbook said, "the people who get promoted often are not the best workers, but the best politicians." In my experience, it's quite often the people who exhibit "intelligence and risk taking behaviors" are the ones who are labeled "management issues" or "not a team player" or "not a Company man" and are let go. Why? They represent a threat. No, there is tremendous pressure to get along by going along at the expe

Re:Not exactly true

[sasami]

Your complaints are understandable but there is a lot of misinformation on this point.

Sure, if your parents are working near minimum wage jobs AND you meet their academic criteria (a rare group), then the system will normally cover all your expenses

The financial aid calculation, although far from ideal, is meant to scale with need. That means even those who have quite modest incomes will have some part to pay. You need to go very low before you get a free ride.

The median household income of financia

Re:Not exactly true

[FallLine]

I hate to be blunt, but this poster makes no sense. On one hand, he blasts the system of expensive, top-flight schools, and yet says his friend was "forced" into a state school. That's like people complaining about how hot people are so shallow. And his friend, unfortunately, is rich. With over a half-million dollar in home equity, she is a firmly entrenched member of the elite he hates so much.

No, to be blunt, I am rich. I do not hate the rich. My friend is NOT rich. Her father earned maybe 60K dolla

Re:"Premium login"??

[timeOday]

This may surprise you, but the median household income [census.gov] for the US in 2001 was $42,228, and most families have more than one child. The 80th percentile begins at $83,500.

Re:"Premium login"??

[SeanAhern]

Uh...I can see all of them, and I'm not a "subscriber". When I click on "Top Schools", I get 123 different rank groups. I only get statistics for Harvard and Princeton. Accessing the rest of the statistics requires that I buy something.

For those who don't care to link, here's [usnews.com] the ranking:

1. Harvard University

Princeton University (NJ)
3. Yale University (CT)
4. Massachusetts Inst. of Technology
5. California Institute of Technology
Duke University (NC)
Stanford University (CA)
University of Pennsylvania
9. Dartmouth College (NH)
Washington University in St. Louis
11. Columbia University (NY)
Northwestern University (IL)
13. University of Chicago
14. Cornell University (NY)
Johns Hopkins University (MD)
16. Rice University (TX)
17. Brown University (RI)
18. Emory University (GA)
19. University of Notre Dame (IN)
Vanderbilt University (TN)
21. University of California - Berkeley *
University of Virginia *
23. Carnegie Mellon University (PA)
Georgetown University (DC)
25. University of Michigan - Ann Arbor *
26. Univ. of California - Los Angeles *
27. Tufts University (MA)
28. Wake Forest University (NC)
29. U. of North Carolina - Chapel Hill *
30. Univ. of Southern California
31. College of William and Mary (VA)*
32. Brandeis University (MA)
Univ. of California - San Diego *
Univ. of Wisconsin - Madison *
35. New York University
University of Rochester (NY)
37. Case Western Reserve Univ. (OH)
Georgia Institute of Technology *
Lehigh University (PA)
40. Boston College
U. of Illinois - Urbana - Champaign *
Yeshiva University (NY)
43. University of California - Davis *
44. Tulane University (LA)
45. University of California - Irvine *
Univ. of California - Santa Barbara *
University of Washington *
48. Pennsylvania State U. - University Park *
Rensselaer Polytechnic Inst. (NY)
University of Florida *
51. George Washington University (DC)
Pepperdine University (CA)
53. Univ. of Maryland - College Park *
University of Texas - Austin *
55. Syracuse University (NY)
Worcester Polytechnic Inst. (MA)
57. University of Iowa *
58. Purdue Univ. - West Lafayette (IN)*
University of Georgia *
60. Ohio State University - Columbus *
Rutgers - New Brunswick (NJ)*
University of Miami (FL)
Univ. of Minnesota - Twin Cities *
64. Boston University
Miami University - Oxford (OH)*
University of Connecticut *
67. Brigham Young Univ. - Provo (UT)
Indiana University - Bloomington *
Texas A&M Univ. - College Station *
Univ. of California - Santa Cruz *
University of Delaware *
University of Pittsburgh *
73. Clark University (MA)
Michigan State University *
Southern Methodist University (TX)
Univ. of Missouri - Columbia *
Virginia Tech *
78. Baylor University (TX)
Clemson University (SC)*
St. Louis University
SUNY - Binghamton *
SUNY Coll. Environ. Sci. and Forestry *
University of Colorado - Boulder *
84. Fordham University (NY)
North Carolina State U. - Raleigh *
Univ. of California - Riverside *
87. Illinois Institute of Technology
Iowa State University *
Stevens Institute of Technology (NJ)
University of Denver
91. Marquette University (WI)
Univ. of Massachusetts - Amherst *
University of Tulsa (OK)
Univers

fancy book learning

[pauly_thumbs]

according to the ads that I watch while collecting unemploymet and eating cheezits -- Devry Institue is the place to become an elite member of the exciting IT industry!!!111!!!

MIS vs CS

[big-giant-head]

In CS we started as Freshmen writing code and more code and even more code as you got higher up in the classes ie, 1000 level vs 2000 vs 3000. The mis folks in the college of business did't write hardly ANY code till they were Jr or Sr's. I always thought this was a bad idea since half of them ended up working as programers.

I actually knew a manager that claimed he perferred MIS grads over CS grads because they produced better 'documentation'. Which is probably true, but he got his butt canned because evey project he managed went over on time and budget by a significant margin and were usually buggy as hell, but his projects were all well documented and thats what counts right????

Take it with a grain of...

[DeathPenguin]

Just want to remind everyone that a lot of the rankings are quite subjective: "The rankings are based solely on the judgments of deans and senior faculty who rated each program they are familiar with on a scale from 1 (marginal) to 5 (distinguished)."

Personally, I'm more interested in which universities have good industry and job opportunities surrounding them, since my first job after getting a degree will likely be close to wherever I graduate from.

Re:Take it with a grain of...

[(54)T-Dub]

The Debt Rankings [usnews.com] are interesting though. I also thought that cal tech's #1 [usnews.com] on the Best value [usnews.com] ranking was interesting. Totally subjective, but interesting.

hmm that sounds more

[waspleg]

a popularity contest than anything useful

Re:Take it with a grain of...

[supz]

Not to mention that smaller schools don't get a fair mention in any of these round ups. If the school doesn't have tens of thousands of students, they rarely show up...

Of course I can't verify this, due to the fact that US News practically makes you pay to see how much it costs to pay to see anything more than their logo.

Re: Take it with a grain of...

[Black Parrot]

> Just want to remind everyone that a lot of the rankings are quite subjective

My alma tends to crow when ranked high and dismiss the system entirely when ranked low.

The human mind is a wonderfully flexible thing.

Re:Take it with a grain of...

[sasami]

The rankings are based on a number of objective measures also, such as yield (number attending versus number admitted), faculty salaries, etc. But it makes no difference, because they fudge [msn.com] the rankings [msn.com] every year to sell more magazines.

Colleges don't change fast enough for USNews to sell a new issue every year unless they shake up the list themselves.

None of the factors they include have much to do with a quality undergraduate education anyway. There is an insipid tendency to judge colleges by who th

applicability to the real world

[ih8apple]

The longer I've been the workforce, the more I realize that these rankings are irrelevant except for bragging rights and being able to charge higher tuition for "prestige." I know many people who went to these great instituitions (I went to one myself) and many of them are sitting around in a dead end job boring themselves to death. Other people who went to community colleges or lower ranked schools are many of the movers and shakers of the world. There's no hard and fast rule either way regarding success and these schools. The only benefit I can see to the higher ranked schools is the networking with the elite of America who will get cushy jobs due to nepotism and that networking may pay off for you later.

Re:applicability to the real world

[mandalayx]

I agree. However remember that in-state undergrads at Berkeley pay only about $6k/year for tuition as opposed to $30k...

but it's not for everyone :)

Re:applicability to the real world

[Timmmm]

How can you all afford to go to university?!?

In the UK, tuition is ~ 1k/year, wherever you go.

$30 / year ?!?!?!?!?!

Re:applicability to the real world

[QuackQuack]

Either you pay for it in high tuition or you pay for it in high taxes. ;-)

If you can't afford $30K/year (and that is for the most prestigious of schools, most schools are much less than that), there are scholarships, grants, and loan programs to pay part or all of your tuition.

Re:applicability to the real world

[Skater]

Loans.

Lots of loans.

I went to a relatively inexpensive school [clarion.edu], and I still have a ton of debt from it. I'm glad I didn't go anywhere more expensive. I'm quite happy with the education I received at Clarion, too.

--RJ

Re:applicability to the real world

[panaceaa]

How can you all afford to go to university?!?

My father's side of the family has a sort-of honor system where the dad pays always pays for the tuition of the kids. It's happened from at least the time of my great-grandfather, who paid for my grandfather and great-uncle to go to college at Tufts University. Then my grandfather paid for my dad's education, and my dad paid for mine. I've never talked to my dad about the tradition, but when I have kids I definitely want to keep the tradition going.

Some would look at it like my family's well off, though we're not rich. I instead like to think of it as a loan across generations. I don't have to pay for my education until later in life, when I can afford it, and then I repay it through my kids.

Re:applicability to the real world

[rleibman]

Of all the things that cost money, there is only one thing that you can give to your children that will last them a lifetime: Education. Everything else can be lost, stolen, taken by the government, etc.

My parents had a simple rule, they would keep on paying for our education for as long as we continued to go. I plan to do the same for my children. I'd rather go hungry than prevent my kids for going to the schools they want.

Re:applicability to the real world

[blowhole]

I think just about every Asian-American family I know of does this. I find it extremely odd when I hear of people who aren't having daddy pay for their education.

Hear hear!

[The Tyro]

I don't know how it is in EE, but in medicine, NOBODY CARES where you went to medical school.

Unless you are in academics (I was for a time), where you received your medical degree is almost meaningless. Residency location matters a little more, since that's where you actually learn your trade. However, I've met people trained at Ivy-League med schools and residencies who were absolute fools; no exaggeration.

I was state-school all the way, and my USMLE and board scores were top 15% across the board... you get out of your education EXACTLY what you put into it. If you slack at an Ivy-League school, no amount of flashing around that fancy sheepskin is going to cover up the fact that you're a dolt. Also, you can be a brilliant doctor, and be as terrible as you are brilliant if you don't learn to deal with people. Nobody likes an asshole, no matter how good a doctor he's supposed to be, since medicine is far more than the mechanics (this may not be true for some surgeons. Given the choice between a prick/skilled surgeon and a nice/mediocre one, I'll take the first guy, since most of my interaction with him is while I'm unconscious. I want him for his hands, not his personality, and if he were enough of an ass, I'd tell him exactly that!)

We had guys in my medical school class who were bottom 20% in the class, and they ended up becoming GREAT doctors... the ones I would personally go to if I had a problem. One guy who went into psychiatry was dead last in the class, and went on to become an academic superstar, and professor at a large medical school.

Where you get your degree is far less important than who you are, including your personal work ethic, experience, and general motivation.

Re:Fat-Ass Loans

[Fred Ferrigno]

All of the sweeping generalizations you make about state universities are exactly untrue at mine*. Nearly all of my professors at least know me by name and if they don't, it's because I haven't approached them. Even a little too often for my liking, they know who I am despite my best efforts. Among my worst professors are the incredibly bright and incredibly nice type who simply can't get thoughts out of their head fast enough. All of my professors though, are very much willing to go beyond the minimum requ

Re:applicability to the real world

[(54)T-Dub]

It really depends on your industry as well. As an engineer the school I graduated from means less than the job experience i have. Go to a highly competive field like law and I would imagine that the rules change completely.

Re:applicability to the real world

[s20451]

The longer I've been the workforce, the more I realize that these rankings are irrelevant except for bragging rights and being able to charge higher tuition for "prestige."

The longer you are in the workforce, the less your formal education is relevant, anyway. Besides, it's better to think of it in terms of the intrinsic benefits rather than the extrinsic benefits. I have attended both small, unknown and big, prestigious universities, and the quality and quantity of teaching is certainly better at the bigger schools. Having said that, the difference between 1 and 2 is pretty much irrelevant compared to the difference between 1 and 500.

The only benefit I can see to the higher ranked schools is the networking with the elite of America who will get cushy jobs due to nepotism and that networking may pay off for you later.

Well, that's certainly relevant! I'm about to finish a graduate degree, and the job I'm about to start is basically thanks to my supervisor's networking skills. It certainly helps that my supervisor is world-renowned in his field, so an introduction from him carries a lot of weight, which you probably wouldn't find at a low-ranked university.

cripes....

[Cali Thalen]

MIT, Stanford, Berkeley...
MIT, Stanford, Berkeley...
MIT, Stanford, Berkeley...

What exactly is this an ad for anyway? Oh yeah, US News' 'Premium Online Edition'

Nothing to see here....

Ranking don't mean much in the top

[Brahmastra]

My comment is from the prespective of a graduate student. Almost all the top schools are as good as each other. Or you could end up with a shitty advisor in which case, any school would be bad. It might be counterproductive to choose a college based only overall rankings. Your field of reasearch, advisor, how much money they pay you as assistantship, they all play a role. As long as a school is in the top 10-20, they're probably about as good as each other.. Some better than others depending on your specialization

Good

[cubicledrone]

No "Best Party School" crap. It's a crying shame that the title exists at all.

It says a great deal about a society that values irrational consumption of alcoholic beverages as a virtue to be sought after.

And for those of you thinking that this isn't important: how many hiring managers and HR blimps do you suppose see "Bachelor of Arts" and think "drunk every weekend?" How many of those people think a college degree matters?

So yeah, it's important.

Best Party Schools

[(54)T-Dub]

#1 Cal State San Diego #2 Cal State Chico #3 ....... Buy me a drink to find out ;-)

These rankings are ridiculous

[pudge]

They have absolutely no validity [archive.org]. Ignore them. Please. [archive.org]

Re:These rankings are ridiculous

[Anonymous Coward]

Amen. This top 20 crap has got to stop. There is a huge inefficiency in the market for talent because so many employers keep trying to recruit from the same small number of institutions -- usually the ones of this list. And parents make their kids miserable trying to compete to get into that short list of schools.

I've been in the NYC job market for nine years and all the academic elitists (e.g., those who will "only hire from the Ivy League") continue to distort what one would hope would be a meritocrac

Re:These rankings are ridiculous

[the gnat]

Yes, speaking as a Yale alumnus: US News can blow me. The top three are basically a perpetual toss-up between Harvard, Yale, and Princeton, with a different college (or pair) holding the top spot each year, depending on how they've decided to tweak their ranking formula. Occasionally there's an upset - Caltech got #1 a few years ago. (Which is a good indication of how fucked up US News' system is: Caltech is a fantastic school, but it's an engineering school, not at all like HYP.)

A couple of years ago,

Re:These rankings are ridiculous

[stanwirth]

The top three are basically a perpetual toss-up between Harvard, Yale, and Princeton, with a different college (or pair) holding the top spot each year

Tee hee. At Cornell, there's a running joke: "Harvard, Princeton, Yale...and perhaps Cornell." So in the school paper, you often see the word "perhaps" placed before Cornell, even when not in the context of the rankings. "A University Spokesperson Announced today that perhaps Cornell would consider the measure to..." etc.

BTW I feel these rankings should be ignored by both prospective undergraduates and graduate students. The formula for undergrad should be first and foremost "Where can you get the best education for what your money?" -- and this means evaluating geography, what your parents are willing to help you out with, where you're going to fit in culturally, as well as whether you can afford it, and whether the faculty are there primarily to teach you.

Sure you can go for broke at "the best" school, but if you have to work 30 hours a week to afford it, your grades are going to suffer, and if you're stuck with a bunch of snobby prep-school kids who *can* afford it, you can get blindsided by class and social issues that you simply shouldn't have to deal with. When a graduate teaching assistant at another "top" school, we were told on no uncertain terms that the University had just changed its acceptance policy from needs-blind to needs-based. In other words, if your daddy's rich, you could get in more easily with poorer grades, SATs and so forth. Specific students were pointed out to us as being ones we might need to "go easy" on, and we were instructed to, when catching students cheating on exams, to bring the case before the professor rather than busting them on the spot--it could humiliate a big donor's sweet little angel, you see. As a working-class kid who'd made good by working and paying my own way through another "top" (read: expensive) school and had suspected crap like that was going on -- I was outraged to find that it was true. But kept my mouth shut--when the going gets tough, the tough take notes. And used this anecdote as ammunition when Cornell started considering the same admissions policy.

If you already live in a state with an excellent university system, take advantage of the fact. Your parents have been paying for it your whole life, through their taxes, so, in effect, the state university system owes you an education. If you don't, pick a state university you'd really like to go to -- UT Austin, UC Berkeley, UCLA...apply, and then defer your matriculation until after you've established residency. It might take a year or two of working and paying taxes and registering your car in that state, but it could well be an excellent investment of your time. You can get to know students, find out what programs are the most interesting to you, suss out which teachers do a good job and which ones are simply full of shit, and hopefully save up a bit of money for your studies -- and save a bundle on tuition. Hey, for a year or two of working before going to college, you can save a hundred grand in tuition over the following four years, and have more contacts in the community as well as some real-world work experience when you get out. Bonus!

Academics will try to hit you with their snobby attitude like you've "wasted time" and come up with all sorts of lame patronising damning-with-faint praise excuses on your behalf why you "had to take some time off." The sooner you learn to ignore the bullshit attitudes of academics, and only accept from them what's useful to you the easier it will be for you to just get on with your education anyway. And remember. They Work For You not the other way around. They owe you competent instruction and fair grading, not a steaming pile of bullshit patronising attitudes . If they try their attitudes out on you, just classify them as insecure and not worth your time -- and mo

Suggestions welcome, really, please

[AEton]

I am applying to college this fall, looking for a degree in computer engineering (or software, maybe. heh) so I can go join the rest of the madding crowd in the unemployment lines.

The portions of this report available free didn't really surprise me -- MIT and Berkeley were already on my "apply here!" list, and maybe Stanford just for fun. But I have a bunch of others in mind -- Carnegie-Mellon, Harvard, CWRU, maybe Ohio State (tuition would be cheap or free as I live in state).

This story should generate some more interesting suggestions as to what I should look into--particuarly because we have to pay money to see more than the top 3--and I'm very interested in input from the techie crowd, particularly those who have already gone through the college circus.

Re:Suggestions welcome, really, please

[Brahmastra]

How about University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign? They have an excellent Electrical/Computer Engineering program. And at this point, it's probably better to get a degree with some hardware in it rather than pure software. It'll reduce the chances of being in unemployment lines. Most of the top 10-20 schools have big job-fairs with most large tech companies attending. Going to any of these schools, and getting reasonable grades should give you a very good chance of landing a job easily.

Re:Suggestions welcome, really, please

[SUB7IME]

Go to Harvard if you want to become an eliteness craving adult who is surrounded by extremely hot women. Yale is good if you want a lot of freedom, academic and otherwise, with a more low-key atmosphere. But the handful of hot girls at Yale is nothing compared to the plethora of punan at Harvard. Your decisions are your own of course, but there is more to a school than its rank (as everyone else here has aptly noted repeatedly). Try to take into account a school's counseling programs, the location of th

CMU will work you and break you, but it's worth it

[chia_monkey]

Do Carnegie Mellon. Expensive and you'll bust your ass just to make a "B", but wow is it worth it. No coasting through classes here. And it actually does have a little pull out in the real world (even though right now everyone is probably saying "Mellon? Like in 'Back to School'?"). But...the thing I got most out of it, you'll make some damn good friends as you're all staying up late trying to survive.

And then you got Pitt and a couple other nearby schools to go to/recruit chicks when you have ten minute

Go to a big state school.

[raehl]

Avoid schools primarily geared towards engineering. Well, if you want to learn how to interact with real people anyway.

There are a few good reasons to go to a big state school, esp. if you have one that's decent at your intended major in your state.

1) It's cheaper. You will be very hard pressed to make enough money after school to make up for the extra $100,000 in debt you'll be from MIT or Stanford.

2) You will run into many, many more people during the rest of your life who went to your school. This is good.

3) Real people will not instantly label you as a snob.

4) You have a much broader range of educational opportunity, and employers value this. Employers want engineers who took a few humanities classes. You will enjoy the opportunity to take a few humanities classes. You will have the opportunity to apply your major to fields that are just not available at engineering oriented school.

5) If you decide you hate engineering - and I know many people who do - you can easily move into something else.

6) Social Fraternities. I'm not saying you should join one, but you should have a good friend who does.

7) Women. Who bathe. Some who have probably not heard about the tech bubble bursting and who will date you because of your perceived post-graduation paycheck.

8) You'll still have access to everything you would have had at an engineering-only school.

I know way too many people who went to Engineering schools who have a very difficult time functioning outside of an Engineering environment. One of the *MOST IMPORTANT* things I got out of college was taking classes with, and doing extra-curricular activies with, people who were smart *AND* not engineers.

Re: Northwestern

[joncarwash]

I'm in ChemE at Northwestern, and the department is very good, so I would recommend it. In terms of computers, I know a good amount of CS majors and not many like the department that much, and from what I have seen it is not that wonderful. The ECE department is good though, I know many ECE majors and some grads and they enjoy it and get a lot out of it.

And about the co-op program, I would have to say I approve; guess where I'm writing this from ;) The program here has undergone some bumps over the past

Re:Suggestions welcome, really, please

[PhoenixFlare]

So just go off-campus. If memory serves, there's at least 4 other schools, including Nazareth(1:3 male:female ratio), within a fairly short driving distance.

And even if you don't....People complain and complain about not finding females, but they usually turn out to be the ones that haven't ventured out of their room for anything but food or class the whole year.

Trust me, if you actually leave your cave once in a while, you'd do just fine :)

Re:Suggestions welcome, really, please

[wcbarksdale]

The major problem with Cornell is the weather. It is cloudy around 90% of the time and snowy for several months. If you suffer from seasonal depression, don't go here.

Aside from that, Cornell offers the experience of a solid engineering program within the framework of a solid general university. It gives you more opportunities if you're not totally sure about what you want to do -- I went from a CS major in Engineering to a Math/CS double major in Arts & Sciences. And unlike a state school, the atm

What?

[cK-Gunslinger]

Harvard, Princeton, and MIT are some of the best schools in the country!? I never saw that coming!

Seriously, I've never complained about ./ stories before, but this really is a non-story. Maybe if I had a usnews *premium* account and could actually get more than a 1,2,3 list...

Go Cats!

[crumbz]

Northwestern outranked U of C. Now I can sleep better at night. Ha.

Can anyone tell me...

[gpinzone]

Where did Polytechnic University (Brooklyn, NY) end up in the fields of EE and CS?

Best in Engineering?

[ackthpt]

B-b-but what happened to Acme University?

I'm sorry, but I've watched far too many RoadRunner cartoons to believe a Coyote could have done better anywhere else.

Top Party School - all we care about.

[EvilStein]

University of Colorado, isn't it?

Sadly, Chico State isn't on the list anymore. =/

Which college has the most bandwidth? The best female to male ratio?

C'mon, tell us the *important* stuff.

Re:Top Party School - all we care about.

[mandalayx]

Which college has the most bandwidth? The best female to male ratio?

C'mon, tell us the *important* stuff.

MIT has their own class A plus they fight the RIAA :)

But female to male.....eh...better than CalTech :)

Re:Top Party School - all we care about.

[Sonicboom]

Correct. U of Colorado is the top party school.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/954063.asp?0si=-

TOP PARTY SCHOOL
UNIVERSITY OF COLORADO, BOULDER
Boulder, Colorado is said to have an endless amount of things to do: concerts, coffee shops, movies, parties, shopping and plenty of outdoor activities for those adventure-seekers. The Division I sports add to the energy of the school and the atmosphere around campus (campus is only 30 minutes from Denver too). The school is large, with over 25,000 undergrads enrolled last year. The student body is described as "a combination of rich kids and hippies, kids who don't care about class work and kids who are super-competitive, studying hard during the week and letting loose on the weekends."
Runner-ups
2) University of Wisconsin, Madison
3) Indiana University (was number one last year)
4) University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign
5) Washington and Lee University

Re:Top Party School - all we care about.

[Mr. Sketch]

Which college has the most bandwidth?

ZDnet will rate the most 'wired' colleges. However, I can't find it on their site anymore.

Re:Top Party School - all we care about.

[KillerHamster]

I don't know which has the BEST female to male ratio, but BGSU [bgsu.edu] has about a 3:1 ratio. Not too bad, but obviously irrelevant for us geeks.

Oh, and the bandwidth is great. They block all P2P, though.

Country -vs- country rankings?

[GreenCrackBaby]

Forget this survey. Is there really a surprise when schools that cost $30,000 per year rank at the top? What I'm interested in is a country -vs- country ranking. Here in Canada we have some amazing universities, and I'd love to see them up against the US's best.

Re:Country -vs- country rankings?

[mandalayx]

Forget this survey. Is there really a surprise when schools that cost $30,000 per year rank at the top? What I'm interested in is a country -vs- country ranking. Here in Canada we have some amazing universities, and I'd love to see them up against the US's best.

I pay about $2900/semester to go to school at Berkeley..

Re:Country -vs- country rankings?

[Hal-9001]

From events like the ACM programming competitions, the Putnam mathematics examination, and the American Solar Challenge, I would feel confident saying that the University of Waterloo could compete with any technical school in the U.S., including MIT, Caltech, Stanford, and Berkeley.

Re:Country -vs- country rankings?

[alienw]

Good luck getting a job in the US after graduating from a Canadian university. Going to a crappy college in the US will give you better chances to get a job here. The Indian Institute of Technology might be more prestigious than MIT, but few people in the US know that.

Besides, the quality of the education you receive at a university is largely dependent upon you, rather than the university. A smart student who strives to achieve his best rather than the bare minimum will likely do equally well at a no-n

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Hooray

[stratjakt]

Same story as usual. Expensive ivy league schools rated best in class!

Although this means nothing to me, I know most slashdot readers and editors will be looking at colleges in about 5 years or so.

Frankly, I've found that the real world puts much less esteem on who granted your degree than the schools themselves do.

Pretentious eggheads laugh at DeVry, employers dont. They usually care if you can do the job, and have appropriate hygeine.

Princeton Review

[sometwo]

Princeton Review has their rankings out and there is no fee. Find out [princetonreview.com] which schools are the party and non-party schools.

Phd programs help undergrads?

[rfischer]

Did any one notice this distinction:

Best Undergraduate Engineering Programs
(At schools whose highest degree is a bachelor's or master's)
(5.0 = highest)
1. Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech. (IN) 4.4
2. Harvey Mudd College (CA) 4.2
3. Cooper Union (NY) 4.0

Best Undergraduate Engineering Programs
(At schools whose highest degree is a doctorate)
1. Massachusetts Inst. of Technology 4.8
2. Stanford University (CA) 4.7
University of California-Berkeley * 4.7

Somehow the PhD program elevates the undergrad program?

Re:Phd programs help undergrads?

[mandalayx]

Somehow the PhD program elevates the undergrad program?

I think the idea is that more postdocs mean better profs. But then maybe Harvey Mudd has some profs who are really passionate about teaching and not research...

Re:Phd programs help undergrads?

[mph]

Somehow the PhD program elevates the undergrad program?

I don't find this at all surprising, although I'm in the physical sciences, not engineering.

In general, the best and brightest faculty in a given field are going to be primarily interested in their research. Graduate students are vital, and substantial, part of most research programs. Thus, the leaders in a field are more likely to go to an institution where they can supervise a cadre of grad students.

(Yes, there are exceptions; some brilliant professors are happy to concentrate on teaching rather than research. You'll find good examples at the institutions at the top of the list. I am speaking in general.)

Re:Phd programs help undergrads?

[bziman]

Somehow the PhD program elevates the undergrad program?

When I was applying to undergrad school, not quite ten years ago, I had to decide between two schools for my physics degree.

One school, was relatively small and just had an undergrad program. At that school, I had the promise of much more personal attention from the professors, and I was assured that the professors were focused on teaching, not on there own research.

The other school had a much larger program, going all the way up to a PhD. They had research going on, and lots of fun fancy equipment.

I chose the larger program, and found that all of those advanced resources were, in fact, available to me. I took a graduate class as a sophomore in solid state physics, and got to be co-author on a real paper in the field.

I was surrounded by people who were really interested in the field, and knew that the professors truly got it.

So, assuming that your program doesn't completely ignore undergrads, then going to a school with a bigger program can be a very good choice. Particularly if you're headed for grad school or are interested in research. Just make sure you do your homework -- some of those big name schools are the ones that ignore undergrads.

-brian

Princeton Review also has a list out...

[Exitthree]

You can see it here [princetonreview.com]. Same colleges different order. ;)

Another take on this.

[niko9]

Reminds me of a sig I once saw here on Slashdot.

Going to the Univeristy can make you knowledgeable, but it cannot make you wise. ;)

Crazy Go Nuts!

[ChopSocky]

No Crazy Go Nuts University?!?

I love Homsar.

Is Stanford Eng Dept even Accredited?

[kalieaire]

I'm not quite sure how this is possible, but my friend used to be a CS Major at Stanford. The department of computer science was accredited.

However, Stanford's Engineering department was not. The reason being is that most of the classes were taught by TA's, aka graduate students.

Stanford didn't meet the minimum requirement of actual Professors with Graduate and Post Graduate degrees teaching lectures.

With that understanding, how is it possible for Stanford to even be a top school in engineering?

Th

Re:Is Stanford Eng Dept even Accredited?

[rogueuk]

After reading this, I thought "wait a minute..I just graduated from UPenn's SEAS (School of Engineering & Applied Sciences) with a BSE in CSE..it must be accredited" ...it turns out, however, that we are accredited in a bunch [upenn.edu] of engineering fields, but not computer science.

I don't know how I missed that. Doesn't seem to matter too much in the industry as far as I know...people are still getting the jobs

Johns Hopkins

[bjtuna]

I know there's gotta be some other JHU alumni reading this. For years, Johns Hopkins has been ranked around #15, which always prompted Hopkins to brush the rankings aside as subjective. Surely the rankings are bullshit, they would say, since anyone worth their salt knew that JHU was the premiere research institution in the world.

So my freshman year, 1999, rolls along and Hopkins finds itself ranked #7 by US News. Oh how they did celebrate. We heard about it nonstop for the first few weeks of school, especially during orientation. Major prestige thing. Huge boost to the administration's collective ego. And those rankings? Not so subjective anymore, were they? Finally those US News guys saw the light, and ranked Hopkins near the top!

Man, what a bunch of hypocrites. Long live JHU :)

Re:Johns Hopkins

[Halo-]

Man they're a ton of us JHU geeks out today... I actually entered in 1999. If I recall correctly, the majority of the reason for the 15 -> 7 jump was that Mike (Sugar Daddy) Bloomberg gave us a metric assload of money. So did Krieger. I'm sure there were other factors, but a quick 100 million dollars buys a lot. :)

School of Hard Knockers

[isa-kuruption]

Top rated university for a degree in Life Studies.

Stretching it...

[carambola5]

Big day for University of Wisconsin.

If you dig deep enough, it's ranked 2 for Nuclear Engineering. That makes 3 /. articles today. Now, if only there was an article on the top party schools... IIRC, UW is 2nd place this year.

Don't know about the top Schools

[IWantMoreSpamPlease]

but the "University" I went to had to be the bottom of the barrel.

I still recall the quote from the dean of Chemistry when we walked into the 1st day of Physical Chemistry:

"None of you will pass this class the first time around, I will make certain of it."

And he did too. Had two exams, midterm and final. The midterm was on the day *after* the last day to drop the class, so in other words you had no idea how well you were doing in the class until it was too late.

Motherfucker had tenure as well, so we couldn't get his butt fired for this. And sure enough, we all failed (even the straight A students, of which I was not one)

In any case, long story short (too late!) everything I learned in life I *damn sure* didn't get at college. I got it in real life, so I have to wonder just how accurate those ratings (and how useful) really are.

Credibility problems?

[rritterson]

People often complain that these rankings are subjective. Yes, they are subjective, but so is an interviewer offering a job. I'd have to think that having clout in your own area (i.e. enrolled in a program that is rated highly by it's peer programs) would lead to clout in the job market too.

That said, I hope no one uses the list to find where they are going to apply to college. Further disclaimer: I attend Berkeley. I find it outstanding and I love it. Can't beat the crazy hippies as well as the proximity to silicon valley. (Where else can you get a top quality enginnering degree, as well as intern at Apple, among other companies, in the summer, without moving)
Lastly, Berkeley is now tied with the Farm! Moving on up. w00t!

Come to Canada instead

[s20451]

C'mon up to Canada for your education. The tuition is about half (or less) of what it is in the states, if you're gay you can get married, and we're about to decriminalize marijuana.

Better yet, you don't have to pay to see our rankings: [macleans.ca]

1 Toronto [utoronto.ca]
2 Queen's [queensu.ca]
*3 McGill [mcgill.ca]
*3 Western [www.uwo.ca]
5 UBC [www.ubc.ca]
6 Montreal [umontreal.ca]
7 Alberta [ualberta.ca]
8 Sherbrooke [usherbrooke.ca]
9 Ottawa [uottawa.ca]
10 McMaster [mcmaster.ca]
11 Dalhousie [www.dal.ca]
12 Saskatchewan [usask.ca]
13 Laval [ulaval.ca]
14 Calgary [ucalgary.ca]
15 Manitoba [umanitoba.ca]

Re:Come to Canada instead

[Frank of Earth]

That's a great idea. Too bad all those schools are in Canada though.

Those are rankings for med-doc, not comprehensive

[ian stevens]

The above post listed the rankings for Canadian medical doctorial universities instead of the rankings for universities in the comprehensive category [macleans.ca].

Re:Come to Canada instead

[cymen]

Can anyone share their experience transferring from a school here in the US to Cananda? It is definately something I would consider. Lots of questions about financial aid and credit transfer come to mind.

Take with a grain of salt

[jemenake]

Recently, I served on a committee for our college that did some strategic planning. You know... the whole "strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, threats" deal.

Anyway, one of the ideas that someone brought up was the notion of trying to influence our ranking in the U.S. News annual report. So we looked into how the rankings are done.

As I recall, it turned out that the main factor in the rankings of universities as a whole was the peer assessment (other deans of universities and colleges). To this end, all of the institutions who put a priority on being near the top of the list make sure to send out promo material to everyone that U.S. News queries... ideally a few weeks before U.S. News sends out the queries, so that the promo material is still fresh in the mind of the voters.

For either the overall rankings or the rankings of the individual programs (like engineering, business, etc), there were some other very interesting quantitative measures that came into play. One of them was something like the percentage of classes with fewer than, say, 21 students (which increase a school's score) and another was the percentage of classes with more than about 35 students (which lower a school's score).

One insteresting suggestion someone on the committee made was, if we had any classes with a maximum class size of 21 or 22, lower it to 20. Only one or two students have to wait until next quarter for the class, and the college gets a discreet jump in its score. Same goes for lowering classes with a max of 35 or 36 to 34. Every little bit helps.

Anyway, the long and short of the story is that... there are a lot of clever people who make it their business to juice the scores that their school gets. If a school isn't very high on the list, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's a bad school. It might just mean that they haven't found out how the ranking game is really played. (Kinda like an athlete who doesn't realize that everyone else is using steroids yet).

Cheap SOBs

[daves]

500,000 readers, and nobody pays the Premium Subscription rate to be able to post the whole list.

My school went way down

[Epistax]

I go to RIT. I wonder why it went down.
I'd sing my school song, but we don't have one that anyone knows about.
I'd root for my football team, but we don't have one.
I'd enjoy the social life, but there is none.
I'd take a walk to the town, but there is no town in walking distance.
I'd join student government, but they're powerless.
I'd buy a soda, but they cost $1.25.

These ranks are a joke

[eaddict]

My wife used to work at a University in the Statistics/Retention/etc... or soemthing like that dept. I used to call it the Department of Imaginary Numbers. For example, when she turned the graduation report in to the Dean/board about graduation rates the #1 degree was nursing. Well, they didn't want to be known as a nursing school so they told her to break the nursing graduates down into specialties. She then asked if she should do that for the engineering/math/chemistry departments as well. The told her no, only nursing.

So much for accurate statistics! She left that job after few more reports had to be modified. For fun we called back to admissions to our old school to get the graduation rates. Scary that the same thing was going on there.

It would be interesting to see the colleges lumped together to see where the school focuses for REAL.

Princeton Review List doesn't require log-in

[ManoMarks]

http://www.princetonreview.com/college/research/ra nkings/rankings.asp And give 351 best and has feedback from students as well as schools.

Bah

[Vann_v2]

These things are such a scam. Everyone should read this [uchicago.edu] article.

engineering upset

[grue23]

Wow, it's weird to see Stanford and Berkely in those high spots for Engineering. Usually the top three for engineering are some combination of MIT, Carneige-Mellon, Caltech, Harvey Mudd, and Rose Hullman. (MIT being almost always #1).

Re:Pretty meaningless then (?)

[El]

Come on, you've gotta respect any institution where the median score on the entrance exams is a perfect score (for math, anyway).

Re:Don't be stupid, go to Community College ...

[djeaux]

Undergraduate degrees are meaningless now-a-days, so you might as well spend as little as possible getting one. Going to a community college for the first 2 years to get the basics out of the way is a good start.

Spot on!

Another point is that the majority of community college faculty are actually interested in teaching students. Most university faculty, particularly those at the "prestigious" institutions, have absolutely no interest in teaching. They want to do research. Odds are that the undergrad classes at those top universities are being taught by graduate assistants anyway.

I've worked as an institutional research administrator for a couple of community colleges, and I've found that when community college students transfer to universities, they perform as well as or better than students who started as freshmen at the universities.

On the tuition side of things, attending a community college translates into savings sufficient to pay for the junior year at a public university.

The end result is that unless you're one of those rare /.ers that could actually get admitted to Harvard, Stanford, Princeton or MIT, you're going to attend a state university, and most state universities already have "articulation agreements" with their local community colleges to expedite transfer of credit, etc.