Snail Mail Still Winning The Bandwidth War 259
LR_none writes "Today's New York Times has this short piece suggesting snail mail is the leading broadband technology, at least for video movies on demand. The article states that the 8 to 9 gigs of data on a DVD would take two weeks to download at 56kb, making Netflix' three-day distribution by mail seem speedy. (Since they can send three or more movies at once, Netflix compares favorably with DSL download speeds, too.) The author estimates Netflix alone distributes 1,500 terabytes a day, which is impressive considering the Internet carries 2,000TB a day (by estimates cited in the article). The 'immediate gratification' aspect of Internet consumerism has given a huge boost to companies like FedEx and UPS, but it's surprising to think of the post office as being the leading infrastructure provider for digital entertainment, in terms of market share and efficiency, for the forseeable future. (Disclaimer: I don't work for Netflix or the post office.)"
LAG! (Score:5, Funny)
Not millisecond.
Not second.
Not minute.
Not hour.
Lag measured in DAYS.
Hell, even carrier pidgeon is probably faster
Re:LAG! (Score:1)
Re:LAG! (Score:2, Funny)
Re:LAG! (Score:2)
Re:LAG! (Score:5, Informative)
Packet loss is negligible.
Re:LAG! (Score:2)
CPIP (Score:2)
Re:CPIP (Score:2)
Don't forget that it has actually been implemented [linux.no].
yeah... but (Score:2)
Insurance (Score:1)
And delivery is only best-effort, you know
The United States Postal Service offers insurance for many items sent through it.
(meta) Last Post trolls (Score:2)
Today, I discovered a new (to me) form of troll: the Last Post troll. As most of us should already know, Slashdot locks all discussions that are more than 14 days old. A Last Poster takes advantage of this: (s)he comes into a discussion that's about to end and writes either some inane top-level comment ("LA5T POST!!!1!1") or a flamebait/troll reply to an existing comment.
Not that I'm necessarily implying that the parent comment was such a troll.
Anyway:
Last post suckaz!
Significant fact to rebut MPAA claims . . . (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Significant fact to rebut MPAA claims . . . (Score:1, Interesting)
Is there some connection between the number of pirated movies available on the Internet and the number of non-pirated movies rented out by Netflix that's never been brought to light or something?
Re:Significant fact to rebut MPAA claims . . . (Score:2, Insightful)
With 7.4 million DVD rentals per day in the US http://www.showbizdata.com/contacts/ and assuming 7GB per DVD average and ignoring the "features disks", the effective bandwidth of the DVD rental system is 52,800TB/day.
This implies that if the daily bandwidth of the internet were entirely DVD movies, this would constitute 3.8% of the total DVD rental market. (ignoring the DVD sales market for the moment) 3.8% is not "commercially significant" and doesn't affect the "fair market value of the work". It sounds (if memory serves) less the than the cost of shoplifting or credit card fraud.
According to Jack Valenti there will soon be 1M movie downloads per day worldwide http://www.mpaa.org/jack/2001/2001_04_03a.htm . This would constitute (if true) 15% of the *US* rental market (which is apples to oranges worldwide vs. US -- so derate by the ratio of the worldwide market to the US market). It would also imply that (even assuming 700MB Divx of VHS quality) that 35% of the total internet traffic (700TB/day) is movie downloads.
If anyone believes that I've got some swamp land and a bridge for sale.
Clear rebuttal of the notion that . . . (Score:2)
The threat to distribution is not that it exists at all (you can find pirated DVD's on most any city street), but whether it is significant compared to the principal modes of distribution available to legitimate parties.
1GB Data Transfer (Score:4, Funny)
Fed-Ex
Re:1GB Data Transfer (Score:2, Funny)
Re:1000TB Data Transfer (Score:3, Funny)
Re:1000TB Data Transfer (Score:2)
where it was faster to drive down to the colocation site to dump the latest DB than
transfer it over the wire. Before you say
"duh", consider that the drive was only about
30-40 mins, the database was not that huge,
and the company was just cheap and had only
a dialup connection shared among ~8 users.
Re:1GB Data Transfer (Score:2, Insightful)
If we were talking a factor 1000 more than 1GB, the Fed-Ex solution might have some validity. But then you have to take into account high-bandwidth tape drives in parallell and so on. My guess that you would be very hardpressed to find a solution that is faster than the internet for getting data from one file system in one city to another file system in another city.
Next they're going to tell me (Score:5, Funny)
Oh wait...
Whew! (Score:3, Funny)
Of course, if you're using a 28K line, you're probably not instantly gratified that often anyways.
Really old quote (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Really old quote (Score:1)
Re:Really old quote (Score:4, Funny)
I was at Best Buy this weekend and saw an ad for Netflix (Best Buy and Netflix have a cross-marking agreement). I pointed to it and told my wife "Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes" - of course she looked at me like I was an idiot (nothing new...).
Re:Really old quote (Score:5, Funny)
Soko
Re:Really old quote (Score:4, Informative)
Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of mag tapes.
-- Dennis Ritchie
The quote is attribuited to Dennis Ritchie [bell-labs.com].
an old expression (Score:2, Redundant)
Re:an old expression (Score:2, Informative)
Bad ping times. (Score:4, Funny)
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Streaming? (Score:1)
Re:Streaming? (Score:5, Funny)
Streaming snail mail doesn't work for DVDs, but you can get it to work for VHS.
The trick is to pull one end of the tape out of the cartridge, then glue it to a post card. Drop the postcard in the mail and leave the rest of the tape next to the mailbox.
Now, as the head end of the tape makes its way through the postal system, it automatically despools the rest of the tape which streams along behind it.
As soon as the head end of the tape arrives, the customer inserts it into in an empty cartridge and starts to play it . As the VCR plays, it sucks the remainder of the tape out of the postal system at the appropriate speed.
Re:Streaming? (Score:2)
Yes you can. Think about it.
Re:Streaming? (Score:2)
Re:Streaming? (Score:2)
Oh and if you live in Australia then they are gonna charge you for going over your bandwidth limit. So you have 3 choices. Netflix and 3 day lag, Download and possible data charges, or forsake quality and and download divx versions of the movies.
You think that's fast... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Bandwith (Score:2, Insightful)
house on Wall street, and it was in fact cheaper
and faster to send data tapes from the west coast
office every day via FedEx than to do it by wire.
This conversation took place several years ago
and the relative costs may have changed by now,
but the way he put it was:
"Never underestimate the bandwidth of a fully
loaded 747 flying cross-country"
Daniel
Re:-1 redundant (Score:5, Funny)
profit!
Re:-1 redundant (Score:2, Interesting)
What's the snail equivalent of... (Score:1)
Kinda sad I'm thinking about this...
Netflix is great, but... (Score:5, Informative)
They've opened three! (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Netflix is great, but... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Netflix is great, but... (Score:2, Interesting)
I'm in Indiana - My NetFlix DVDs ship from and to Michigan, which is pretty consistently next-day service. I kind of assumed that they had several locations, and that they shipped out of the one closest to you, but I don't see specific info to that effect on their Web site.
Re:Netflix is great, but... (Score:2, Informative)
http://www.netflix.com/Static?id=5167
Re:Netflix is great, but... (Score:3, Informative)
I get 1 or 1.5 day turnaround.
now you're jealous, i know.
--mandi
East Coast Dist is up (Score:2)
Yes, but... (Score:1)
Snail mail over SSH. (Score:2, Funny)
Step 2: append 10 MAC shreads at the end of mail.
Step 3: permutate shread x with shread perm(x) where perm(x) is the chosen encryption algorithm.
Step 4: glue together
Step 5: shread, unencrypt, reglue.
voila.
Bandwidth vs. Latency (Score:2)
Cost is also an issue, next-day mail is REALLY expensive... shooting bits across the net is really cheap, and in comparison almost free.
Re:Bandwidth vs. Latency (Score:2)
not if you take the infrastructure into account.
How much money does a company pay for there IT infrastructer? lots.
Re:Bandwidth vs. Latency (Score:2)
Which just goes to show that "synergy" isn't just a dot-com buzzword.
Netflix and I handle all of the "pinging" (i.e., the administrative tasks such as creating an account, placing an order, and tracking progress) via the web & email--almost instantaneously.
Then we handle the high-volume data transfers via USPS, which works out pretty nicely. Sure, there's about 5 days of latency (from the time I return a DVD to the time the next one arrives), but the way it works out I generally have one or more new movies waiting for me whenever my schedule allows me the time to watch one.
Re:Bandwidth vs. Latency (Score:2)
Cost is also an issue, next-day mail is REALLY expensive... shooting bits across the net is really cheap, and in comparison almost free.
Where do you live? Next day mail costs me £0.26 (~$0.35). On the other hand, if I had a dialup modem I'd be paying double that per hour to "shoot bits across the net". Luckily I have DSL, but that's not cheap either.
Snail Mail... (Score:3, Insightful)
Another metric ... (Score:1)
Re:Another metric ... (Score:2, Interesting)
Must be a slow day. (Score:2, Flamebait)
The USPS is a-okay (Score:5, Interesting)
If I need it there Sometime Later This Week, I have no problem using the USPS for anything. They've never lost a piece of mail I was waiting for or sent out, and I have done a lot of business with patient buyers on eBay that were happy with the ship times and the handling with USPS. In fact, recently I have read about more issues with sending delicate equipment UPS/FedEx than with USPS Priority, for example.
Broadband just isn't a reality/necessity for enough people yet, and the size of applications and media in digital format is growing and is already too great for the Average Joe who has an affinity the Internet but doesn't know how to download 4 GB worth of video successfully (or patiently, for that matter).
- DDT
bandwidth and latency (Score:1)
Re:bandwidth and latency (Score:2, Funny)
Yeah, Quake III would be a very interesting game under those circumstances.
NetFlix rocks for us HDTV junkies (Score:4, Interesting)
getting an HDTV for me - I find I spend
more hours per week watching Netflix-supplied content than anything else, and most DVD's are in widescreen
formats.
It works out to be cheaper than Blockbuster if you like watching lots of
movies, and is more flexible than the
pay channels.
I wish they had more content though, as
you can pretty quickly run through all the
movies you haven't seen already.
But no "mature" content (Score:2, Informative)
Magnus.
Re:NetFlix rocks for us HDTV junkies (Score:2)
but what about (Score:3, Interesting)
I have a 40gb PVR and it's filled all the time.
Re:Even better than HDTV or satellite (Score:2)
Disclaimer (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Disclaimer (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Disclaimer (Score:2)
You really work for the Discordians.
Re:Disclaimer (Score:2)
The ultimate MOD? (Score:3, Interesting)
Just imagine how fast snail mail would be... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Just imagine how fast snail mail would be... (Score:2)
The sad thing is, in the USPS the "spammers" probably make things faster. They actually pay for the resources they use (postage) and justify (and pay for) improvements in sorting equipment and techniques. I've seen it argued somewhere that it's the bulk mailers that are keeping the price of first class postage so low and not the other way around.
Imagine what would happen if every spammer bought a new Fast Ethernet switch for the SMTP server they highjack.
Bandwidth... (Score:2)
"Never underestimate the bandwidth of an 18-wheeler full of CDs."
M@
cable bandwidths (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:cable bandwidths (Score:2, Informative)
But how's the latency of the connection? (Score:4, Funny)
bits in the protocol (Score:2, Interesting)
It's simpler to make a lower bits per packet protocol (like rs232 or SSA) than a higher bits per packet (uwSCSI).
you just make up for lower frequency with bigger packets.
the internet is an 8 data bit protocol compared to the (4.7GB * 8) data bit protocol of mailing DVDs.
TeraScale SneakerNet (Score:2)
discusses [microsoft.com] what turned out to be the most reasonable solution to sending terabytes of data (the Sloan Digital Sky Survey) in a convenient form across the globe: sending complete servers with terabyte disk subsystems.
Now if only netflix decided to come to Canada... (Score:2)
1,500TB? Doubt it. (Score:2, Informative)
Re:1,500TB? Doubt it. (Score:4, Insightful)
And you will suffer the loss of quality and the inability to play them on a real TV that goes along with it, no thanks. DivX sucks.
I think you're a bit behind the times (Score:2)
I had a video card with TV-out several years ago, and in fact most cards seem to come with it standard now.
And if you don't like DivX's artifacts (what few there are now, on a properly encoded movie playing in any decent system), you can always try SVCD. A full movie often fits on 2 CDs, and damned if I can tell the difference from DVD. Added bonus, my DVD player plays em, so I guess that's what you meant by a 'real TV'.
Re:I think you're a bit behind the times (Score:2, Insightful)
I'm willing to bet you're the kind of guy who likes to distribute mp3's in 112kbps 'cause you can't hear the difference on your $2 headphones. If you can't tell the difference between a SVCD and a DVD you should either need to have your eyes examined or get rid of the old ass b&w TV. The difference in resolution is significant enough as it is to give a vast improovement... not to mention higher bitrate and more colors... That's like claiming to not be able to see the difference between a 1080i HDTV image and a standard NTSC signal.
Re:I think you're a bit behind the times (Score:2)
I used to enjoy a nearby second run movie theatre much more, before my theatre-employed friends pointed out subtle rips in the screen and errors in the sound. Now I see and hear them every time, and I have lost something because of it.
Re:1,500TB? Doubt it. (Score:2)
Lossy Compression -> Lossy Compression = Even Lossier Compression.
Blah.
Re:1,500TB? Doubt it. (Score:2)
Right, and 128Kbit MP3s are CD quality.</sarcasm>
If you are already going to use two cds, rip it to SVCD. The artifacts are far less noticeable, and you can play it on a standalone DVD player. I know you can't do 5.1, but most DVDs don't have 5.1 audio anyway.
DVD Bandwidth Calculations Based On MPEG-2 (Score:3, Informative)
I guess the CD manufacturers also thought they were safe, when a typical CD occupied 700MB of data in an era of mainly dialup connections. Then along came MP3 with its one-tenth compression ratio and so much for that idea. Netflix's current success is a temporary artifact of our restricted bandwidth and lack of suitable MPEG-4 hardware players.
And I found out from some surfing that some Netflix competitors, such as CafeDVD [cafedvd.com], QwikFlicks [qwikfliks.com], and DVD Avenue [dvdavenue.com], are cheaper and offer porn, something Netflix avoids.
Bandwidth per day (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm sorry, that seems just a bit low. 1 site pushing 1 Gb/s is 84 Terrabytes/day. That means only 23 sites have to use that much bandwitch for that 2000 number to be hit. As I know of at least one site that pushes (not counting incoming) 10 Gb/s, that number is just a little unreasonable.
I'd really like to know where people get these kinds of numbers. I have seen silly numbers like this one and the 7 billion pieces of e-mail per day numbers and have to wonder where they come from. Acording to some numbers I saw released at one point, Hotmail alone receives over 1 billion e-mail per day.
I really have to wonder if someone is just making this stuff up or if they are looking at a very small set of data and extrapolating from there. In either case, I think better methods need to be used to create these kinds of numbers.
Re:Bandwidth per day (Score:2)
It is low. In fact, it's doesn't even pass any common sense test. As you figured out, that only equates to around 23Gbps of bandwidth. I can guarantee the Internet is pushing a lot more data than that. I help manage maybe 400-500 Mbps of end-user bandwidth (3x OC-3's and 1x OC-12), and I assure you that the college kids in a single mid-sized state do not represent 2% of the Internet.
But I want it NOW damn it! (Score:3, Interesting)
*Thud*
In the words of Scotty, " I canna change the laws of physics Cap'n."
Honestly people, what sort of harm are you actually going to come to by having to wait to watch a movie until you receive it?
Hey, here's what I do. I walk to my library ( 5 minutes each way) and take out three videos. They already have more in stock than I can watch in what remains of my lifetime and the collection grows daily. If I do this early in the morning I can watch all three, return them, and take out three more, watch them and then repeat that one more time, making the last return the next morning when I return for three more to start my day. Repeat until death.
Pretty good "bandwith," and ecologically friendly too.
KFG
"These apples don't taste a think like oranges!" (Score:2)
Through rain, sleet or snow (Score:2, Funny)
Do the math: 1 GB == 56 hours (Score:2, Informative)
1 gig takes 2-3 weeks over a dialup connection.
One gigabyte, divided by 5 kilobytes per second (average effective downstream rate for "56K" dial-up given line noise and TCP overhead), equals 200,000 seconds, or just under 56 hours. At that rate, an online DVD store would have already shipped the package.
CheapBytes: the fastest way for dial-up users to get an OS distro [cheapbytes.com].
Re:Pretty good security too... (Score:2)
--Dan
Re:Pretty good security too... (Score:5, Funny)
Meanwhile Klez keeps popping up in my Inbox again and again..
Re:Pretty good security too... (Score:2)
I send you this anthrax you have your advice.
There's more than a joke there (Score:3, Interesting)
People's reaction to electronic mail is astounding. The combined effect of government repression of cryptography and statements of "no expectation of privacy" can not be underestimated. How is it that people who expect to go to jail for intercepting the post also expect people to intercept and read their email?
Re:Yeah but the P.O. costs one HELL of a lot more! (Score:2)
This sounds like the old George Bush guessing that a gallon of milk cost $9.
A mini-cd can fit in a small envelope, and weighs in under the 1-ounce, meaning only 1 stamp needed. A full size cd can fit safely in a padded envelope and mail at under $1.
For $3.95 you can send anything that fits into a priority box/envelope. You can probably fit 40 cd's in there.
Never send jewel cases either, just use sleeves [casedirect.com]
I've been mailing cd-r's with mp3 albums for a long time, and the postage isn't that bad until you start looking at over seas trades.
Re:Yeah but the P.O. costs one HELL of a lot more! (Score:2)
Considering the article was about about UPS, FedEx, the United States Post Office, AND about Netflix (where only USA customers are allowed to be customers due to postal considerations) you'll have to forgive me for not reading your mind. I've traded packages with lots of European nations, and I never heard of any of them complaining about their postage rates except Yugoslavia.
So instead of your message being wrong, it's just off topic.