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Beijing Snubs Microsoft For Municipal PCs' Software 393
jsse points to this Gartner article which says "that on 28 December 2001, the Beijing municipal government selected among seven vendors to provide operating system (OS), office automation (OA) and antivirus software for government PCs. Beijing selected six bidders, including Red Flag, but rejected the seventh bidder, Microsoft -- the only one that was not selected. Gartner listed several reasons why Microsoft lost the bid, but missed out the famous rumor that Microsoft has built a bad relationship with China since the first Chinese Windows 95, which was written by Taiwan programmers, contains Easter eggs carrying anti-communist messages."
And Rumors are always true.... (Score:4, Insightful)
The article points out that China can greatly benefit by not having a powerhouse like Microsoft established in China. Chinese companies will have a much better opportunity to gain a foothold in China now.
Re:And Rumors are always true.... (Score:2, Interesting)
This is pretty old news, or at least a variation on a fairly tired theme. This was a discussion topic even back before Windows 2000 came out (and probably earlier): China doesn't want to use Microsoft. The code is kept secret, so they don't know whether the US (via Microsoft) is spying on them. And with all of the news about the FBI's ability to log keystrokes, you really can't blame them for being paranoid.
I think this here is the entire point. China is trying to support its industry. Microsoft seems to be doing fine without their help and the Chinese tech industry needs the boost.
China does see itself as the leader of the Developing World. With this in mind, the government there might also be thinking of trying to access IT markets in its region. India might be in a position to do that if it weren't for the massive brain-drain they are suffering due to open immigration. China, on the other hand, has a trapped workforce which it could potentially exploit to create the products it needs to gain a share in outside markets.
BTW, Noam Chomsky was just paraphrasing Voltaire:
Je ne suis pas d'accord avec ce que vous dites, mais je me battrai pour que vous ayez le droit de le dire.
`I do not agree with what you say, but I will fight for your right to say it.'
Re:And Rumors are always true.... (Score:2)
Makes ya wonder why we bother.
Re:And Rumors are always true.... (Score:2)
Re:And Rumors are always true.... (Score:2, Funny)
Nationalism and tech (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Nationalism and tech (Score:3, Interesting)
I just took one of those fancy "heres how the other half lives" college courses.
How will reducing software licensing costs transform china in 30 years, when its been an agrarian society for thousands, and poverty stricken for a couple hundred, at least ?
Re:Nationalism and tech (Score:4, Interesting)
Many countries have been agrarian societies. But some countries in the last 100 years transformed themselves. For example France is one of the few countries in the world that is 100% self sufficient in terms of feedding itself. But throughout that time France organized and modernized itself. Hence they have more money and a better standard of living.
But the catch in the loop is that to take advantage of automation you need a specific sum of money. And you cannot become modern without the automation. Hence by lowering the cost to entry a society can transform itself.
Way back when with a 100 USD you actually used to get quite a bit of software.
Re:Nationalism and tech (Score:2, Interesting)
I just took one of those fancy "heres how the other half lives" college courses.
Yes, thank-you for sharing with us how ignorant the American education system leaves you.
How will reducing software licensing costs transform china in 30 years, when its been an agrarian society for thousands, and poverty stricken for a couple hundred, at least ?
First of all, while my ancestors (the celts) were still painting their faces and living in thatch huts (yours too if you are anglo-saxon descended), the Chinese had already developed the most effecient system of agriculture on the planet, mining and metalurgy, astronomy and mathematics, gunpowder and rocketery, government beauracracy, silk clothing, medicine and hygeine shall I go on?
Secondly, if you have ever been to China (and I have three times and have lived in Hong Kong for a year), you would realise that the Chinese ALREADY have the social and cultural structure to adapt to science, engineering and technology extremely quickly. If you visit Taiwan or Hong Kong you can see this first hand.
The only three things holding back the Peoples Republic of China in becoming a "first world", technologically advanced country is
(a) restricted access to information due to govt. policies
(b) lack of commercial and government transparency in financial transactions
and (c) lack of infrastructure development outside of the major cities.
If these three problems can be solved in the next five years, then within twenty years China will be the most technologically advanced and wealthiest nation on earth. Actually, the nation state is fading as a power, so perhaps I should say Chinese corporations will be the most technologically advanced and the wealthiest on Earth.
Now to address the original point, the Internet is one of the most tranformative technologies developed for 200 years. Equivalent to the development of the printing press. Used the right way, it has the potential to transform society as we know it.
In order to access the internet, you need a computer with a modem, an operating system that makes it easy to connect to the internet and an e-mail client and browser. Linux is an OS perfectly suitable for these requirements.
If you are a developing country, you need access to these resources as cheaply as possible, and paying the Microsoft tax does not meet that criteria.
Almost half the cheap motherboard manufacturers are now in Southern China around ShenZhen. All but two CPU foundries are in Taiwan. The only resource that China doesn't have immediate cheap access to is CPU design.
However, the majority graduates from American universities with the capability to work on CPU design are Indian or Chinese. When China's govt. begins to relax it's authoritarian grip, and the middle class in the cities become wealthy, these graduates will return home and begin work for Chinese companies working on designing consumer grade CPUs. China already leads the world in super-conductor research.
At this point, Chinese consumers and companies will have direct access to cheap hardware, and the best, most robust software in the world FREE! The take-up of computing technology will accelerate past the West.
Then, once there are ~500 million active users, Chinese software companies will be able to create incredible software, and sell it over the Internet. Even if they only make US$1 per sale, each title will make them hundreds of millions of dollars.
This will spur the creation of a software 'gold-rush'. Software development will explode in every conceivable area and for every conceivable application. Transport, manufacturing, government, business management, distribution, mining etc etc.
This software 'gold-rush' will in turn tranform every other aspect of China's commercial and productive development.
If you want to see 'Old China', I suggest you go now. Because in twenty years, there will be nothing left of it.
So I assume a text easter-egg of (Score:4, Funny)
Linux in Shools (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Linux in Shools (Score:3, Interesting)
The school division I work for has said that if they're ever hit with a Microsoft audit, all their computers will have Linux on them so fast. Microsoft is really beginning to piss people off with their tactics. They might just do themselves in in the educational market.
Re:Linux in Shools (Score:2)
Except that the BSA has no special immunity to such things as anti stalker laws.
XBox also will not come to China (Score:3, Offtopic)
Go here if you want to read up a little more on it... http://www.lik-sang.com/catalog/news.php?artc=238
Re:XBox also will not come to China (Score:2)
Perhaps it's time you stopped beating the dead horse. Piracy was the term chosen by those who engaged in the practice.
Anybody who remembers the WAREZ boards of the 1980's could tell you that.
Open Source != Communism (Score:3, Interesting)
First, let me state that I am a capitalist and firmly believe in the rights of companies and organizations to develop closed-source software and charge money for it. Many of my most frequently used programs (all for Linux) are closed-source and cost me a pretty penny to acquire. I believe in paying for software when I provides me with the services I need.
However, I also use open source software from time to time. Although many teenage Slashdotters seem to think that open source is necessarily good and commericial software is automatically evil, I believe the two paradigms can continue to exist side by side ad infinitum.
My contributing code for free to an open source project does not diminish my standing as a capitalist. Open source software is great. However, just because software is available for free (as in beer) does not make it a communist product.
Re:Open Source != Communism (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Open Source != Communism (Score:2)
Re:Open Source != Communism (Score:2)
I am a Socialist (though i do agree with Communist thought about public/private capital issues, just not that democracy is worthless. Think Mao vs. Marx). I use GNU/Linux because it appeals to my sense of morality (the same one set that aligns my politics).
Now, anyone who is a raving McCarthy-ite (USofAmerican) who hears "Communist" and thinks "Fascist" should PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE go here [politicalcompass.org] to understand how these are not the same thing. You will be presented a quick political overview and have some simple political spheres illustrated, it will also break the left-right dynamic that pidgeon-holes (and hobles) American Political discourse.
Alot of USofAmericans will probably have a very strong conditioned reaction to the word "Communist". The reason I bring it up is simple: A) It is On-Topic. B) I live in South of Detroit in Windsor, Ontario - and I have come to understand that Americans (almost every one ive met) has no idea what "Communism" or "Socialism" is - yet they are very certain it is absolutely terrible. I have taken it upon myself to confront and educate. Its my own little 'out-reach' program to counter act their conditioning.
Re:Open Source != Communism (Score:2)
The point is not that communism and fascism are the same thing, it's that communism leads to fascism and totalitarianism because that's the only way it can be implemented. By force.
Or haven't you noticed that the more socialist a country is, the less freedom you have? Sure, many European socialist countries put nice padding on the bars, but they are still jails nonetheless. Which is why so many try and "break out" by coming to the US.
Re:Open Source != Communism (Score:2, Insightful)
Or haven't you noticed that the more socialist a country is, the less freedom you have?
Socialism does not cause less freedom.
I live in the socialist country of Sweden and I don't know what you're talking about. We have since long been able to visit neighbouring countries without passport or visa. The principle of public access to official records is a constitutional right. The number of prisoners per inhabitant is significantly lower than in the US and we DON'T sentence innocent people to death.
I would like to know what kind of freedom there is more of in the US than in Sweden.
Re:Open Source != Communism (Score:2)
I live in the socialist country of Sweden and I don't know what you're talking about.
Think economic freedom. Without economic freedom, all other freedoms are just an intellectual exercise.
The number of prisoners per inhabitant is significantly lower than in the US
Try having as diverse a population as the US and see what happens.
and we DON'T sentence innocent people to death.
That's a bug, not a feature.
Re:Open Source != Communism (Score:2)
Communism(or perhaps more accurately Marxism) definately leads to fascism and totalitarianism because it has to be implemented by force. Marx recognizes this and calls it the Dictatorship of the Proletariat.
I do think Richard Stallman is a Marxist. His writings speak to his realization that his utopian will never come naturally, but rather has to be forced on people. I find the commentary on this China thing to be very pro-Communist. The article makes the implicit assumption that Microsoft is nasty because they used Taiwanese programmers who put anti-communist messages in the software they sold China.
I think the original posters message in this thread had reason for a very real concern.
I always find the talk of McCarthy to be humorous. One can dislike Communism without adopting a McCarthy outlook. In making this comment, the posters are engaging in the same behavior they believe they are speaking out against.
Re:Open Source != Communism (Score:2)
Which is kind of ironic, considering the proportion of it's people the US jails. Or how there are people in the US working hard to remove rights and freedoms from people there. (But they are good "capitalists", rathert than "socialists" so it must be ok...)
Re:Open Source != Communism (Score:2)
The popular stereotype is that most Americans couldn't even pick out the right continent for various countries. Let alone know what goes on there and especially what the US government is up to around the world...
There is a huge difference between economic models (capitalism vs socialism vs communism) and leadership models (democracy versus autocracy).
Also the simple presence or absence of elections is not an indication of "democracy". Indeed one of the best examples of electorial farce, in recent years, comes from the USA.
What alot of people in the US don't get is that just because a country is or becomes democratic wont make them capitalist.
Also regardless of if a country is "capitalist" or not any reasonably strong government will favour their own interests over foreign (most definitly including US based) corporate interests. Whilst the US people might not get this the US government most certainly does. (The US government produces one of the best atlases available). Terrorism to install a US friendly dictatorship has been the usual response.
Anyway, regards open source in China - fantastic. The microsoft juggernaut shows exactly what the dark side of capitalism is like (and I am no communist, believe me). But unregulated dominant corporations cause problems which alot of people on
Are corporations truely "capitalist", especially those which demand (and get) laws which in some way or other "rig the market"? Another term which has been applied to the US is "corporate socialism" and the term "corporate welfare" is quite often used.
Re:Open Source != Communism (Score:2)
Re:Open Source != Communism (Score:2)
Okay. I did. And while I agree that the two-dimensional model of politics is more accurate than the simple left-right paradigm, we need to look at the distribution of people on the map as well as the map itself.
In particular, if you look at the dots for the mainstream UK politicians, you'll see that they form a cloud that is clearly stretched from south-west to north-east, i.e. from left-wing social libertarians to right-wing social conservatives. I believe the US politicians generaly fall onto the same trend. That is why the left-right approximation is sufficient for a lot of people.
Note also that the totalitarianists form their own little cloud at the top that is clearly distinct from the mainstream trend. And Stalin (which is associated with communism for a lot of people) is indeed quite close to Hitler (i.e., fascism).
Your statement that it's not the same thing is probably based on the fact that they marked the left end of the X axis "Communism". But you will notice that there is nobody there! We have either ultra-liberals on the SW, or totalitarian communists on the NW. So it's all a matter of terminology: you can either associate communism with the (non-existant) authority-neutral community on the far left, or with the traditional form of communism, which is quite close to fascism.
The two-dimensional model is interesting, but it is probably not perfect either. Politics are a multi-dimensional field, and this is also just an approximation.
To go back on topic: the current Chinese model is probably actually closer to Hitler than Stalin, because their economy is no longer Communist.
Re:Open Source != Communism (Score:2)
I think it's interesting how you misuse the term McCarthyism.
Re:Open Source != Communism (Score:2)
>> strong conditioned reaction to the word "Communist".
Getting serious here, yes, I do have a strong conditioned reaction to the word "communist", just like I have a strong conditioned response to the word "Nazi." Why should communists be forgiven for their own record of death and misery? Virtually every communist regime, regardless of the idealism of its founders, has ended up being ruled by ruthless thieves and murderers. Elections don't avoid that... eventually, the ruling party always coopts the process. And what good is freedom of speech if you're not free to grow some tomatos and sell them to your neighbor?
Look, socialism addresses some valid human needs that free markets don't. The hard-core libertarian view explains the economic efficiency of free markets (which is undeniable), it explains why economic freedom is as important and moral as any other personal freedom. But the socialist view clearly addresses the human need for community, stability and security beyond what free markets can provide. A good country is one that balances the two interests. There are many nations that do so... each a little to the left or right of the other, depending on local culture. France is France, the US is the US, Hong Kong is Hong Kong... each has a balance of capitalism and socialism that suits the local culture.
But communism is the socialist view taken to the absurd extreme of eliminating private property, and that simply violates a right that's as basic as the right to speech. In every country where it's been implemented, people have fled, or tried to. The toll of mass murders committed in the names of communist regimes dwarfs the evil of the Nazis. It just does. And I don't care to hear about America's sins... sure we have flaws, but we don't have the killing fields of Cambodia, the purges of Mao, the death camps of the Nazis, the mass executions of the Cuban Revolution, Stalin's starvation campaigns, the looting of Nicauragua by a family of thugs. I don't know how many times you communist think it's going to take before you get it right, the rest of the world is getting pretty damned tired of this crap. We have to make adjustments to our society as we move into the future. I'm pretty sure at this point that communism isn't the way.
If can name a country that you think has implementted communism successfully, then I'll wager that there's a either net outflow of emigrees vs immigrants, of the country isn't really communist (eg Vietnam). I know America is far from perfect, but I do know that more people want to come here than to leave. When you come right down to it, is there any better measure of a nation than the fact that people want to live there?
Oh, BTW... I don't think open source equals communism, rather I think it's the ultimate expression of capitalism, it's the fruit of people's freedom to collaborate on cheap, plentiful computers. I think copyright laws are socialism, but that's for another day....
Re:But they are! (Score:2)
Huh?
"Fascism seeks equality between race."
Huh?
The best historical example we have of Fascism is Nazi Germany, and the only racial equality they believed in was one race, everybody else is dead.
This philosophy is most frequently found in the far-right wing which disqualifies your first statement I quoted.
Re:Open Source != Communism (Score:2)
--
"
philosophies is more 'communist....."
Neither are!
Communism - 1) a theory or system of social organization based on the
holding of all property in common, actual ownership being ascribed to
the community as a whole or to the state. 2) a system of social
organization in which all economic and social activityis controlled by a
totalitarian state dominated by a single and self-perpetuating political
party. 3) the principles and practices of the Communist party.
4) communialism.
Communisim is a combination of a totalitarian governing body and a
socialistic economic system.
Totalitarianism - 1) the practice and principles of a totalitarian
regrime: the totalitiarism of Nazi Germany. 2) absolute control by the
state or a governing branch of a highly centralized institution:
Totalitarianism aims at suppressing initiative as well as individualism.
3) The character of quality of an autocratic or authoritarian individual,
group, government, or state: the totalitiarism of the father in their
patriachal household.
Socialism - 1) Theory or system of social organization that advocates the
ownership and control of industry, capital, land, etc., by the community
as a whole. 2) Procedure or practice in accordance with this theory.
3)(in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of
a society to communism.
there is also:
Commonwealth (much of the definition refers to non-communist states or
collections of, such as the British Commonwealth of Nations, and the
Commonwealth of Austrialia, to even the how it referes to use in US
history.)
But then there is this in the definition: 7) any group of persons united
by some common interest. 9) a state in which the supreme power is held by
the people.
And then there is this which gives a very good overview of what Open
Source Software is: QonetiQ [govtalk.gov.uk]
- Analysis of th eImpact of Open Source Software
There are some business practices going on in the computer industry that
far better fits the definition of communism than what OSS does.
It is also worth noting the standing question as to why some persist with
such disortions of the truth. (Could that be classified as "Gatesism"?)
Re:Open Source != Communism (Score:2)
>project does not diminish my standing as a
>capitalist.
Erm, actually it does.
True capitalism, in the sense of Thatcherism, etc., holds that money is the only motivation, and thus that society will benefit from companies competing to provide the services centrally organised in a communist society, in order to try to make money. Entering other things into the equation - such as contributing to things for fame, respect, altruism, etc. - does mark you out as not a pure, extreme capitalist, since you don't believe money to be the only motivating factor.
HOWEVER, of course, there is a long way from capitalism to communism, and it is perfectly possible to stand somewhere in between, and it seems unlikely that open source (or even free software) should be place right at the end with communism.
Re:Open Source != Communism (Score:2)
First, I can't help but see your implicit ad hominem argument relating teenagers and advocates of free software. We all know what you mean by this statement and as a teenager, I would really like it if you stop.
But even as a lowly teenager, I understand that part of being mature is understanding the views of those you don't agree with. But you fail this criteria of maturity when you think that free software advocates have something against commercial software. Oh, perhaps you truly mean those who have problems with business in general--if so, you are definitely preaching to the choir--so I will reject that interpretation.
I have nothing against commercial software. But I do have a problem when laws are made for economic reasons and that make performing simple copying and modification acts upon software illegal. Its the nature of software that it can be copied. Yet this is deemed illegal so that people can make more money off of it.
Perhaps this is seen as Not A Big Deal. I mean, few people are harmed by the laws. This will change, I am sure, if governments begin enforcing these laws. When people are fined and businesses shut down for copying software from a CD to their hard drives. Or for transferring software from over a network.
These simple acts are seen as illegal or even wrong by proprietary software developers. But free software advocates don't make such a conclusion. We believe that the copying and modification of software is fundamental to the value of computing and is a basic right of users of technology. The technology is there--what law can tell us not to use it?
So this, dear sir, is what we mean when we see proprietary software as wrong. Hopefully, in future writings, you can provide accurate concessions.
And don't worry, I don't think you're communist either. But you don't need to develop proprietary software to prove it.
Re:Open Source != Communism (Score:2)
Im a little confused... (Score:2, Interesting)
Sorry for the cynicisism, but if there is any truth to this there is little credibility behind it.
Re:Im a little confused... (Score:5, Informative)
There are also persistent rumors that the official Chinese version of Windows 95, which was written in Taiwan, not Beijing, contained hidden text (easter eggs) such as "Communist Bandits," and "take back the mainland."
is that a little easier for you?
Re:Im a little confused... (Score:2)
No, that's the "one sentence blurb" CmdrPinkTaco was talking about. He (and I) are looking for more info than that.
Re:Im a little confused... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Im a little confused... (Score:2)
I guess it's also possible that those phrases just pop up unexpectedly if you do some obscure sequence of actions (more like a traditional easter egg), but that seems less likely to me...
Isn't it because of all the backdoors? (Score:3)
Why would the Chineese want to open their systems to the US Government?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Isn't it because of all the backdoors? (Score:2, Informative)
LSA: Local Security Agent
NSA: Network Security Agent
People back when that story was published saw 'NSA' and jumped the gun.
Does not apply to all of China (Score:5, Insightful)
:Peter
Re:Does not apply to all of China (Score:3, Insightful)
Selling a copy of Windows XP for $1 is curbing piracy. If the free market allows someone to make a profit distributing software for such a low cost, the real pirates are those who would have China choke that market with US-style IP regulations.
Re:Does not apply to all of China (Score:2)
Scenario 1. I sell my billion copies, grossing 2 billion dollars. I get back the billion I spent on development. I get back the
Scenario 2. I sell 100,000 copies, grossing $200,000 dollars with distribution costs of $50,000 and total losses over $900,000,000. I chuck further development in disgust and advise all my colleagues not to waste their money developing or marketing to China.
Hopefully you get the point...there is a purpose to seeing to it that if anyone profits from the production of intellectual property, it is the PRODUCERS of intellectual property. It cost much more that $1 billion and ten years to produce Windows XP. Say whatever else you want to about Microsoft - they understand the ITERATIVE nature of software development. You don't merely produce a product - you redo it and redo it and redo it until you've got it perfect. Then you redo it again to take advantage of newer hardware. MS can afford to do this because THEY MAKE A PROFIT. Sorry if that offends you.
BTW, the end result of failing to curb piracy in China will be a dearth of Chinese-language software - why localize for China if the government will let street vendors with CDRWs rip you off? English language versions then infiltrate the society; English speakers become more prevalent; English ideas are more easily transferred. Chinese totalitarianism breaks down. So curbing piracy still may not be a good idea.
Re:Does not apply to all of China (Score:2)
Why is that? I don't see how highlighting exemplary examples of market inefficiencies bolsters your point.
But what's really starting to irk me is how the robber barons believe they hold dominion over the definition of the word "pirate". Piracy is an act of robbery. Like, say, telling me that the software I paid for doesn't really belong to me.
Here's a question I'll waste on an expiring thread in an old article: How many people who rigorously defend proprietary software actually own and profit from proprietary software? If you code for Microsoft, you don't own jack shit. Why do you code? For money. It's work for hire, pure and simple. Code ownership has nothing to do with it. And if proprietary software were outlawed tomorrow, does anyone really think that the demand for software would evaporate?! Bullocks. People would get paid to develop software just like they do today. Except that they would actually be able to continue building on their own work, no matter who they worked for.
Re:Does not apply to all of China YET (Score:2)
Given Beijing's position as capital of the country, your point was...?
Teach Microsoft to call people names (Score:5, Interesting)
Microsoft figured they would leverage their way in by calling them pirates and then simply saying you can become legal by pay as a large license fee for all of the stuff you are using. The Chinesse understood what this was. Microsoft wanted a bribe to allow China into the world markets. China told them to go f**k themselves, and rightly so.
Hopefully this will make Microsoft look twice now at how their fanning the flames of piracy histeria hurts them more than it helps them. Missing out on a multi-billion dollar market tends to do that to a company.
Re:Teach Microsoft to call people names (Score:2)
Bill Gates got what he has by doing what he has done within the environment he found himself in.
To say that he deserves what he got presupposes two things:
Both of these are currently very much in doubt.
So, perhaps he didn't deserve what he got, whatever you or anyone else has to say about it.
To stereotype as envious everyone who feels there is injustice in the world is to contribute to that injustice.
Re:Teach Microsoft to call people names (Score:2)
But it is you who brings up envy in this discussion, and unfortunately it has nothing to do with the argument.
You have yet to explain how he deserves what he has.
This is not like a poker game. In a poker game, all the players start off equal. Gates had a father in a position of power and influence. Gates ' company has been found guilty of law-breaking. In a poker game, cheats don't win.
People who play by the rules, very cleverly, do. But cheats are not wanted.
Furthermore, your analogy implies you think it's all a big game. Let's see. If the game is, first person to kill kz45 get's to fuck his mother, do I deserve to fuck her when I fill your head full of lead?
The point of that last paragraph is not to troll or insult you, but to demonstrate, albeit in an extreme way, that sometimes the rules of the game are not fair.
Means more than you think (Score:2)
Tut-tut (Score:2, Informative)
How business is done in China (Score:5, Insightful)
The second-to-last sentence in the ChipCenter article explains a lot:
One of the many things that distinguish Americans from the rest of the world--and particularly from Asians--is the American social construct of "just business." I hope you understand, the tycoon says to his beloved, I had to destroy your father's empire and bankrupt all your siblings--but it was 'just business.' This is central to the Tom Hanks-Meg Ryan movie, "You've Got Mail"--Hanks's character is a big-block bookstore tycoon who wipes the small businesswoman (Ryan) off the map--but she falls in love with him anyway. It is practically impossible to explain to most Americans how oddly this strikes practically anybody in the rest of the world. Particularly in Asia.
Nothing, in China, is "just business." You cannot trash-talk a country for their laxity in intellectual property rights and then expect to sell them software licenses. But you also cannot even begin to think that the son of the Chinese President is to be treated as just another vendor. The presence of Red Flag in the bidding guaranteed that Red Flag would win the bidding. That's how business is done in China.
What's instructive in this, however, is that six other vendors also "won" in the bidding--it might be very interesting to see what they offered (such as what OS and what word processors). It might not be particularly surprising to discover that one or more is a Microsoft reseller. One can spank a disrespectful suitor (Microsoft) by pointedly excluding them from the vendor list--but offer Microsoft an opportunity to regain favor by including a reseller (or perhaps more than one) on the list.
Microsoft got stiffed; the president's son won the biggest chunk of the business. Anybody in China could have told you that would happen. The real story is whether there are any Microsoft-OS suppliers on this vendor list, or if the Beijing government has embraced Linux exclusively.
Re:How business is done in China (Score:5, Interesting)
Sorry to disappoint you, but Bush and Cheney are know to have ties to many, if not all, of the major oil companies in the US. I'm not even going to touch on the subject of stock ownership.
Re:How business is done in China (Score:2)
So what?
Trotting out the aging bromide about "Bush and Cheney are know [sic] to have ties to many, if not all, major oil companies in the US" is a) silly and b) beside the point. The finances of federal politicians, including Bush and Cheney are a matter of public disclosure and public record. (For example, here's a link [opensecrets.org] to George W. Bush's disclosure statements for tax years 1998 and 1999.)
What is more to the point is what Dubya did before he got into politics: he was the managing general partner of the Texas Rangers--a post he held despite being one of the smaller investors in the group that bought the team. Why give Dubya the job? Well--perhaps the fact that his father was president of the United States at the time might have been some influence....
In this circumstance, the presence of Jiang in the bidding process was absolutely, positively of influence. Jiang's company entered the bidding, Jiang's company won the bidding. The relative merits of Linux, Windows, Open Source, or green tea were immaterial. That's how business is done in China.
Bingo. (Score:4, Insightful)
This is not about Microsoft.
The PRC doesn't give a rat's ass about what Microsoft said about them.
What's going on here is exactly what the article has said. China is a shoddy business opportunity -- very much unlike the USA. Here, we have 300 million eager consumers, and the government is usually more than willing to let whoever wants to sell whatever they want to try to do so.
China's different. Corporations drool over the nearly 2 billion "consumers," but this is not (yet) a free market economy. And few companies that try to move into China to take advantage of the market ever make money, because the Chinese government is determined to make more money.
This is then made doubly difficult by the fact that in China, the state is religion, and the system is really an imperial system, just like the one Mao supposedly overthrew and every dynasty before it. And in systems like this, success is based solely on who you know. It's not like here in the United States where people value you on your ability to work hard and benefit the company.
People piss on "corporatists" on this board all the time. But that corporate system, with a few exceptions, is what allows immigrants to come to this country with nothing but what they could fit in a pair of suitcases and become the CEOs of their own corporations. It's what allows the children of blue-collar workers the ability to become wealthy and respected white-collar workers. I've met immigrants from China, Vietnam, Egypt, Iran, and all over the place, and they love the fact that in this country, if they work hard, they CAN make a good living.
In China, and most of the rest of the world, you are not valued for the quality of your product or for how hard you work. You're valued for "who you are" -- the son of a famous general, the brother of a diplomat, the cousin of the President.
This is not about Microsoft. This is about China. Only Western arrogance would assume otherwise.
Re:Bingo. (Score:3, Insightful)
Rest of the world including the US, I presume, seeing how if my dad went to Yale and gave them lots of $$$, I'd be able to get myself in too.
Re:Bingo. (Score:2)
Sure. Why not ? Getting in is the hard part. Staying in is relatively easy. And American universities tend to do a very good job at letting students work at their own very fast or very slow place (if they didn't, it would destroy their football teams)
Re:Bingo. (Score:5, Informative)
Sure, nepotism never happens [thenewrepublic.com] in the U.S. [famoustexans.com]...
Corp. Critic. (Score:3, Interesting)
Criticism of the corporate system is usually based on the ethics of that system. Ethics based on the idea that almost any action is justifiable by its value to the bottom line. In short, "its just business."
Its true that the corporate business environment provides a lot of oportunity. But it also exacts an increasing cost as leaders within that system take less and less personal, and generally ethical, responsibility for their actions as part of that system.
The bennifits do not invalidate the criticisms.
Re:How business is done in China (Score:2)
If you repeat something enough, it becomes true.
It's not just business. It's personal, and it's wrong.
Rich...
Re:How business is done in China (Score:2)
Rich...
Re:How business is done in China (Score:2)
It at least seems to me, that what the US calls "corruption" in all other countries is just "lobbyism" in the US.
Re:How business is done in China (Score:2)
Which also explains why the United States is a much more powerful country in terms of it's economy.
We abandoned these concepts years ago because they are not in the long term best interests.
OS share figures (Score:2)
...which is good!
Nepotism? (Score:5, Interesting)
So is this about a legitimate choice in operating software, or is it about nepotism?
I think, before we look to any altruistic reasoning on the part of Beijing on choosing "Linux" over "Microsoft" we need to look closer to home ... to their homes.
Intreresting palindrome. (Score:2)
Linux would far surpass microsoft in servers and desktops by the end of this decade.
think about it... what percentage of the population does china have? if all of them use linux then Microsoft loses in a really big way.
and think about this.. add 50,000 chinese programmers onto the linux factor. (and 50,000 is a very moderate number)
I cant wait for 2010 to arrive!
Re:Intreresting palindrome. (Score:2)
That would explain how the GPL is entirely in agreement with the IP clause of the US constitution (unlike such things as the DMCA) dispite the US constitution having been written long before "communism" was even thought of...
This is the reason that the open source community is struggling in the corporate world. Corporations need to have the highest return on investment. The assets and value of a software company is the source code.
Corporations are a fairly new idea, corporations as ends in themselves and as psudo-people are an even newer idea.
But the major problem with this reasoning is that the vast majority of business uses software.
To the average company being able to accuire software at low cost and being able to tailor it to their operations (without all sorts of legal red tape saying what they can and can't do, requiring keeping records for the BSA, etc) is obviously in their interests. It's only to a (tiny and getting smaller) minority of orgaisations that the idea of proprietary software makes much sense.
Is Gartner Group Unbiased? (Score:2, Interesting)
I am not sure how they can say things like the following and still claim to have a clear view of what is happening let alone what will happen.
"So far, Linux holds only a slight market share compared with Microsoft's offerings and represents a sensible deployment platform only in certain environments, such as entry-level and edge-of-network server implementations. For mission-critical functions, Linux still needs to catch up..."
At my work and a number of places I am aware of, mission critical applications run on Linux and typically work so well they get little visibility.
The commoditization of software built using the open source model is a large threat to Microsoft's [microsoft.com] and other closed source software companies business models. I suspect that Microsoft buys a large number of reports from Gartner Group and they are careful to say things that sound good to their customers.
Re:Is Gartner Group Unbiased? (Score:2)
VERY bad business practicies. (Score:2)
I doubt the company itself endorsed such activity, but it reflects badly on them in any case. And doesn't Microsoft have enough problems as it is?
-Restil
Re:Communists choose Linux? I'm shocked!!! (Score:2, Offtopic)
Berkeley has Republican professors? Get out of here. No way in hell.
Re:Communists choose Linux? I'm shocked!!! (Score:5, Funny)
First, remember that RMS was able to wreak havoc on the computing world only because he is in league with the aliens who abducted Elvis and assassinated JFK.
He is also a known cattle mutilator [totse.com] and evil character [aleph-1.net].
Do us all a favor. If you're gonna troll, at least do it with some taste. Spell names correctly. Try to make the troll have at least some sort of acquaintance with actual history. And for the love of God, don't quote Metallica in a discussion about technology.
Re:funny... (Score:5, Insightful)
You can not compare the organized slaughter at Tiananmen Square to the actions of a few frightened National Guardsmen at Kent State.
1. The Federal Government didn't order the attack at Kent State. The Chinese Government ordered the attacks.
2. Students at Kent State were not put in prison for thier actions, while protesters at Tiananmen Square were thrown in prison.
3. The National Guard at Kent State didn't send in Armored units to put down the protests, like the Chinese did at Tiananmen Square. Read the text of Deng Xiaoping's speech to the Martial Law Units from June 9th, 1989.
http://tsquare.tv/chronology/Deng.html
Those things, coupled with the Chinese oppression of the Fal Lun Gong, Chirstians, Tibet and the 20-40 million that died because of the Great Leap Foreward, give the rest of the world the right to shake our fingers at the Chinese.
http://www.intangible.org/Features/t_square/sit
http://www.christusrex.org/www1/sdc/tiananmen.h
http://library.thinkquest.org/C002291/high/past
http://tsquare.tv/chronology/Deng.html
Re:funny... (Score:2, Informative)
...by the way... 60 shots hardly constitutes much of an "accident" triggered by jittery ohio guardsmen. but that's just my huble opinion. i guess.
furthermore, it was governor james a. rhodes who ordered the men to be sent to kent. last time i checked, the position of a governor is that of a government office.
why were the men armed with real bullets?
Re:funny... (Score:3, Interesting)
As for finding the "christian" link, I hit Yahoo for stuff on China and that was one of the six links there.
I almost didn't post the http://www.christusrex.org link because I was afraid that I'd get crap about it because it is a Christian site. Then I thought, "It's Slashdot, they won't stereotype me for a URL."
I was wrong.
As for me bringing democracy and christanity to China, not my job. China would be better off with a Republic or Democratic government, and it will happen in the next 50 years, but I'm not doing anything about it. As for religion, I don't care what they worship or don't worship. It's a Christian link because it had the context I was looking for, photos of the assault on the demonstrators.
I will go further and say that I think every Communist government on Earth will not make it to 2050. Cuba, Vietnam, China or North Korea being the big 4.
Re:funny... (Score:2)
I just don't like the debate that Communism must fall so missionaries can file in and covert the masses.
You passed the test!
[if you notice though,Christian are the biggest fighters of Communism, while it's closer to the true belief than other forms of gov't.]
Re:funny... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:funny... (Score:2)
That is how debate works. You chip away.
Plus I have a general distaste for Christians who go into Afghanistan or the like just to convert peoples. If they are helping, that's great. But you aren't supposed to steal their identity away from them.
Re:funny... (Score:2, Informative)
Yes, I'm very aware of this. Problem is, the UN Security Council was created on the basis of countries having nuclear capability. Rediculous, no? Or maybe they think security can be maintained by those who have guns?
Now, on to Scientology and Germany. German courts have ruled that Scientology is not a religon. Yet in Germany Scientologists are not arrested, nor is the worship banned. It is simply not a religon in the view of the state of Germany.
Well, those Christians allowed to practice in China are allowed because their religion was "registered". Not too sure what this means, but I'm supposing you have to have government approval to be recognized. Yes, the Scientologist weren't arrested or banned, but they still called it persecution. What's a country to do? In China's case, I don't know if this or that "Christian" is truely being persecuted because they could simply be stretching the truth, to gain sympathy, using China's terrible reputation to score points. But China's still responsible, in the public eye, if some group were to suddenly commit mass suicide (their choice). Remember the UFO cult from Taiwan that relocated to Texas in 1999? The Taiwanese government sent reps there to make sure the cult didn't plan on committing suicide (would've looked bad seeing how Taiwan "was apathetic" to mass suicide by its citizens). On a related note, when the Solar Temple cult committed mass suicide in California? (or was that the European group, I don't remember clearly), the government got some flack because they couldn't stop it.
Even if the government of China does not want Falun Gong or Christians in the country, because they are a member of the United Nations and the UDHR, they shouldn't be banning a religion.
No, I'm sure they're more worried about incidents like the Taiping Rebellion [encyclopedia.com]. I personally know some people who say they practice Falun Gong, and while I can't say they're evil (they're quite nice), looks can be decieving and you don't want Microsoft telling you want comprises excellent software. But, you're right they shouldn't ban religions. Too bad some beliefs are just so unreasonable (read radical Islam).
It's that simple. What goes on in China is documented at Amnesty International. It's not just what I "failed" to mention.
Yes, but "failing" to mention key points could easily cause your argument to be one-sided. One-sided arguments usually lead me to believe the arguer has an agenda to promote. I appologize for sounding rude, but I'm sick of all the same banter about China this and China that. Everyone just seem to use the strawman argument whenever China comes up (geez, I think we need an amend. to Godwin's Law). There's no doubt horrible things are happening there, but I don't think there's a quick fix for all of China's problems, specifically democracy. I'd like to see democracy (yes, in your words Republic or Democratic) there, but it's unrealistic to expect them to suddenly change. There supposedly are democratic elections on the local level there, but news organizations don't like to report on "mundane" topics like that. No, they'd rather talk about "unusual" (our definition, not theirs) topics over there. Heck, there supposedly are elections within the Communist Party, but most people assume it's voting for Happy Jiang or Sad Jiang. It's this cynicism mixed w/ revile that's a cause for concern for me.
Re:funny... (Score:2)
We are talking about China... not the US!
Chinese can do what they want. You on the other hand have no issue.
The people who want to free Mumia Abu-Jamal however are the same people who want to 'free' China.
Re:funny... (Score:2)
The permenent members of the UN security council are USA, UK, France, PRC and Russia. When it comes to thumbing it's nose at the UN the PRC is no match for the USA. Be it refusing to pay its dues or vetoing a resolution against state sponsored terrorism.
Also wern't the people at Waco some kind of Christians...
Re:funny... (Score:2)
Christians fight everyday to rip people of their history and identity. Just as Communism does.
Communism doesn't promote atheism. It relies on it's populace to put the state before religion. In a true communist nation religion isn't needed what so ever. The state provides all, not god. You can't have sects in a communist state as that breaks the chain. Communism doesn't teach no god... it teachs state only!
Tibet: Tibet wants to be a religious state on it's own! It's not a matter of religions, it's a question of freedom to believe what they want AND they want to split from China!
Christians will convert anyone. It's a Romanized version of Judaism, what do you expect?
Re:Recent vs. pas some facts and speculation. (Score:3, Interesting)
There were no students within 90 yards of the Guardsmen. Seven of the Eleven were shot either in the back or the side. The leaders of the protest were singled out for liquidation.
JFK, ML King, Bobby Kennedy, George Wallace, all seen as threats by Nixon. All targetted by assassins who left a diary that implicated them in the murders. Wallace survived, but his chances of deciding the election that year were dashed. He would have siphoned off enough conservative votes to keep Nixon out of office for his second term.
The guardsmen were not out of control, they were acting under orders. If you look at the picture you can see the officers directing them, and in one shot you can see one with his sidearm taking aim.
Re:Recent vs. pas some facts and speculation. (Score:2)
I hope you don't seriously believe this crap?
Re:Recent vs. pas some facts and speculation. (Score:2)
It helps to be the government and have the mass media not being too critical of your line. (Combined with not asking officials to explain the big problems with the official version of events.)
We have one going right now. Various bits don't make any sense, there are plenty of holes. But it's good enough to drop huge quantities of high explosive on the poorest country on the planet, whilst failing to actually achieve the aim.
Take Yer Blinders Off, Boy (Score:2)
Re:Take Yer Blinders Off, Boy (Score:2, Interesting)
Maybe you should take your blinders off. Ideas don't kill people. People kill people. Your tired (and feeble) attempts to make the US into as big and bad a thug as the PRC are a waste of our time and your energy. Save it for your meetings of Sandinistas Anonymous, okay?
Feeble in your eyes because you refuse to listen. I never said the US was evil. All I've stated before was how some people turn a blind eye whenever others commit the same crimes that the PRC has.
Re:Take Yer Blinders Off, Boy (Score:2)
The US government is certainly far from angelic when it comes to treatment of it's own people. Though the PRC is probably worst here.
However when you come to international thuggary the PRC isn't even in the same league as the US. (Even if you allow a "handicap" for the US having existed for longer than the PRC.)
Save it for your meetings of Sandinistas Anonymous, okay?
Is this possibly a reference to the US being indited in the UN for sponsering terrorism against Nicaragua...
Re:funny... (Score:2)
There is no moral equivalency between Kent State and Tienanmen square. If you do not understand the difference, you have lived in the US too long and have too little respect for your freedom.
Re:funny... (Score:2)
Kent State marked the beginning of the end of US involvement in Vietnam. Public opinion shifted almost entirely against involvement in the war.
Again, while tragic, it is hardly fair to call them morally equivalent actions as far as the nation as a whole is concerned.
Re:Why reject Microsoft??? (Score:2, Funny)
RMN
~~~
All the settings necessary are in the registry. (Score:2)
Because all the settings necessary to run a program are in the registry, it is not possible to just copy the program's files onto another computer, and run the program.
Most users are not able to edit the registry, even if they new what the registry keys meant and how to change them to work on a new computer.
There are no Communists (Score:2)
It's always funny how time and time again people set out to implement ``true Communism'' and every single time it fails to happen, they get despotism of one form or another instead.
Perhaps the entire concept is broken, and instead of trying to fix the system, we should be giving the people involved room and resources to fix themselves? With an earnest, altruistic population, almost any system of government will work well.
You won't get people like that out of Atheism, nor will you get it out of ``organised'' (read: politicised) religion.
Altruism (Score:2)
True. Perhaps I needed to express myself more concisely: in the Real World(tm) it generally doesn't happen that way. By far the majority of hospitals etc in third-world countries, and likewise for other useful aid organisations are funded and founded by theistic religions.
Actually, so should the true Christian; and as I understand it both Islam and Judaism in their original forms would tend to be read that way.
While not claiming that theistic religions are free from the same fault (if only!), Atheism usually encounters a problem when trying to agree on a definition of ``goodness.'' Eugenics were an example of one particular set of Atheists' views of goodness, and during the Reign of Terror it seemed good to other parties of Atheists that they should do things like pass babies and children of theists from pike-point to pike-point along the streets to be dumped.
Re:A software consultant's troll dismembered (Score:3)
...and of propagating Nimda, but let's not dwell on that, because they were actually (so we are told) serving stuff, and that in itself is amazing. (-:
Ooh, what a giveaway! Kernel-level as in acorns? Those things harvested and eaten (and lost) by squirrels?
VB is about as well suited to low-level work as thongs are for total building-site safety gear. (That's why Aussies call them JSB's, y'know, Japanese Safety Boots).
Other than the bogus gcc version: why bother? Mandrake ships with Pentium-optimised binaries, and you're not going to get noticeably better performance except for very CPU-intensive applications such as ray-tracing.
If I had boxes doing that, I'd replace the boxes.
Actually, given that this is Microsoft we're discussing, I think you mean ``full-fledged marketing team.''
I run many SMP Linux systems, and most of them use a stock-standard Linux distribution which ships with a choice of three (3) different journalling filesystems. Memory protection was there from Day One.
If by ``work'' you mean chewing up resources, yes. Otherwise it sounds like you have the system names the wrong way around. (-:
Droll troll, how abut writing some software instead of baiting people?
I did it for the children! (Score:2)
No, they're the ones with the flashy temples and immense geneaologies, IIRC. You, on the other hand, posted before you thought. Now is the time, if it hasn't happened yet, to do that thinking.
Yes. This world being what it is, real live people will refer to that troll, and the real live people referred to it will read it and note that nobody answered it. Sometimes neither individual is equipped to figure out that it's a troll. In fact, even a reasonably computer-literate reader could, on a bad day or if distracted, fail to actually process the content. It needed at least one sensible answer. Done.
Because it is on SlashDot, it needed at least one rash and ill-thought-out response, and it got those as well. Does being in a majority bring you good feelings? (-:
Re:You're kidding me, right? (Score:2)
My personal suspicion is that they want to make very sure that their domestic software industry isn't subject to foreign control. Are they building a local cpu fab? We wouldn't necessarily know it if they were, but I'd be surprised if they weren't working on it.
Nobody likes being subject to control by another. This includes countries as well as people. Many countries are trying to make certain that it isn't easy to extort them with the software club. And MS with it's XP licensing schemes has provided every incentive possible to be paranoid about this. I'm paranoid about it, and I don't intend to ever install it.
.
Re:I wish the U.S. would do similar ... (Score:2)
Only as a possibility. The money could just as well go into a bank account and sit there. Without competition there isn't that must incentive to improve any product.
On the other hand, the more tax-dollar stewards (local school systems, say, or your local Department of Extortion) put the same money they normally would put toward MS software instead into non-secret-source* software, the results are instantly free for public consumption and improvement. That sounds to me like "promoting the general welfare."
Maybe you should change the last bit to something like "promoting disemination of science and useful arts"... Then it makes it a bit harder for anyone to call it "Unamerican".