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Slashback: Debianism, Nukes, Discretion 161

Slashback slung at you tonight from 36 deg 02.412N 083 deg 24.61W with Debian pictures, the word on KIllustrator (which is not "KIlladobe"), a vague promise from Psion that they will return with consumer devices eventually, and an interesting exchange regarding the proper choice of tracking database for your local nuclear materials facility.

Lots of pretty pictures. An unnamed reader wrote to say "that notes and pictures from the Debian Conference are now available." There are lots of cool (somewhat KDE-centric, go figure) shots from the recent LinuxTag in an article at dot.kde.org, too ;)

Adobe: an especially thick, recalcitrant material. aicra writes: "according to an email sent to the list:

KIllustrator is now known as 'Kontour' (after Adobe claimed that KIllustrator was too close to Adobe Illustrator, in case you haven't followed the news).

This obviously breaks translations... I have kept the name killustrator.po[t] for the message files, so this remains. But the appearances of the word KIllustrator have been replaced.

This delays the release by about 2 days -- so that there is time to get the new messages translated for rc1 if you're fast (and for the final release otherwise)."

Cute nuclear material shipment, has all shots, answers to "Lucky." We miss it very much. Please call. Random Walk writes: "The Russian memo, and the email exchange between Russian and U.S. principals involved in the problem of nuclear material lost in a MS database, is available online from the CDI. I found the following sentence particularly funny: 'Relatively poor quality of Microsoft SQL Server has created very serious problems in development and implementation of CMAS.' There is a very detailed discussion of the problem(s) with MS SQL Servers 6.5 and 7.0. The Russian report also has interesting words about the 'common fault failure' problem and the need to be more careful when selecting software for critical systems."

Take this exchange for what you will. As michael posted the other day though, the issue isn't necessarily all (or even primarily) Microsoft. The importance of robust software doing the dirty work doesn't get much clearer though.

Absolutely, positively, undeniably, unmitigatedly maybe. Later. Last week, we relayed a report that Psion was getting out of the consumer products market. An Anonymous Coward writes now, however, that "according to this article at Psion Place: Peter Bancroft, a senior spokesman for Psion, released a follow-up statement saying that 'There will be more Psion consumer products in the future.' According to Bancroft Psion is merely 'suspending' their plans to develop a consumer Bluetooth device."

The same statment, though, indicates that if Psion does eventually develop consumer products again (with hints about Bluetooth), it may make them in combination with a partner, or sell off the rights entirely.

This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Slashback: Debianism

Comments Filter:
  • by Anonymous Coward
    I would have thought "KIllustrate" would have been a wonderful name. Less to change, and everyone who is going to keep calling it KIllustrator for the next five years will be relatively happy because they wont have to be translating the name for the unilluminated as they recall the software's history...
  • by Anonymous Coward
    Damn straight! That's 1 in a 1000 on every 'SELECT' with 'ORDER BY'. So, in 1000 queries of that form, you can expect about 1 error (to labour the point), and that's only for this known bug. I dread to thimk of how badly it mangles stuff...

    While no one competent in the corporate IT field uses MS SQL Server for anything important (that's what Oracle is for), there's plenty of incompetents in the world, and the amount of real money that could simply go astray due to the cumulative errors in gimcrack MS systems is scary.

    MORAL: Don't use MS software for anything that matters. Preferably, don't use it at all. If you don't like Open Source, then your still better off with a non-MS proprietary vendor...

  • What's wrong with the Russians' work on ISS? Near as I could tell, it's been mainly our Yankee work that's coming apart at the seams.

    -Paul Komarek
  • Peter Bancroft, a senior spokesman for Psion, released a follow-up statement saying that 'There will be more Psion consumer products in the future.'

    Yep, and when Apple killed the Newton, they announced that they would return to the handheld market in 1999.

    We're still waiting.....

    Geoff

  • by pod ( 1103 ) on Monday July 16, 2001 @04:44PM (#80759) Homepage
    Yes, there is definitely something funny going on with select/order by in mssql. We're running a 6.5 db, and sometimes the queries will not return the full set of rows (confirmed in both the Enterprise Manager query window and an ODBC app). This has so far (to my knowledge anyways) not affected any critical data, but then again I wouldn't know if 54869 rows were returned instead of 54893, and a perl script sure as hell doesn't have a chance. It's quite disconcerting.

    --

  • "Shared" Source isn't actually "shared" in the full sense -- you're just allowed to pay a lot to *look* at it. I doubt it even actually builds. Having that kind of access to the source is interesting acedemically, but misses the entire point of the open source and free software movements it's trying to mimic.
  • I wouldn't be surprised if you have to agree to not participate in any such thing if you want to see MS source code.
  • AKrobat? After EffeKts? PhotoDelucKs?

    I think "PageMaKer" or "FrameMaKer" would be too klose for komfort.

    Regards, Ralph.
  • The most important technology for PDAs is the ability to sync with their desktop mail & contact information. This is a technology that Psion doesn't have.

    It does.

    The EPOC OS may be the greatest thing since sliced bread, but if you can't download the email addresses you entered in your PDA right to your mail program with ease, it's useless.

    It can, so it isn't.

    A CD-ROM containing the PsiWin [psion.com] PC-Psion sync software is included with every Psion computer.

    Regards, Ralph.

  • by Genom ( 3868 )
    Off topic, of course, but who's replacing him? I'm assuming Satriani and Vai are still doing it -- did they get a third, or are they gonna call it G2 now? ;P
  • Oh, I know about and love the SP2 security features - but the RIM sync software and Palm software (as well as the Dataviz fancy Desktop To Go software) don't have this problem. They can just use Outlook directly without dialog boxes.

    I can't give Palm too many props in the software area, though - though their desktop software upgrades are free, it took nearly a year after Win2K was released to have a non-beta quality USB driver. That's way too long.

    - -Josh Turiel
  • I'll address just a couple of these points that you make (which are perfectly valid ones):

    Murky screen: Yes, I've seen the contrast setting and fiddled with it. It's still pretty crummy. However, two counterpoints to that: first off, the Revo/Revo Plus is the entry-level Psion, and competes closest to Palms. And the screen is much crisper on Palms, even the lower-end ones. I know the 5mx has a much nicer screen (with backlighting), but it's also a lot bigger and heavier.

    "Just deal with it" doesn't cut it. Hinges can be engineered for a lot less flex pretty easily - I think they sacrificed that in the design for the telescoping back and port covering when folded. The Revo normally costs some serious $ - it shouldn't feel flimsy.

    I haven't seen the Linux software for it yet, but I'll go hunt and see how good it is. I do not have a problem with Outlook (or Windows, for that matter - other than the fact that I need to use it at work whatsoever, but that's another story!) - and I might mention that _nothing_ else I own has problems in this regard. The PC doesn't lose track of the Palm, Jornada, or Blackberry. However, the older EPOC Connect software Diamond included didn't work at all (never could find the Revo), and the new (beta, but the best they offer) version from Psion still drops the connection.

    As for cost - I realize the Psions are positioned higher up. But that's too small a market. If you want to compete for profits with Palm and Microsoft, you need to have software developers. To have more developers, you need more users (the bulk of them go where the money is). To have more users, you need market share - and to get market share, you need PDA's that appear to the consumer, not just the geek.

    And no, I didn't buy it used. I bought it new from Outpost.com, who is dumping the Diamond Mako (a Revo Plus with a different badge) along with Sparco and a few other vendors, since Diamond/Sonicblue is getting out of the Psion business. It was shrinkwrapped and everything.

    Obviously, I haven't figured out everything it can do - four days is just enough to scratch the surface. I have downloaded quite a few apps to tinker with and learn, and don't get me wrong. I do consider it a neat device, I like it, and I'm glad I picked it up.

    I'm also glad I didn't pay list price for it. Because after four days, it is a cool device, but I can tell readily why Psion has bombed so utterly in the general consumer market. Because when I take off my geek hat and try and look at it like the average person who might go to a Staples or something for a PDA, it does not measure up. People like you and I, however sophisticated we may be, do not make a marketplace.

    - -Josh Turiel
  • by jht ( 5006 ) on Monday July 16, 2001 @05:05PM (#80767) Homepage Journal
    Well, after reading a comment in last week's Psion article about the Diamond Mako (a rebadged Revo Plus) being available at Outpost and a few other places for just $100, I ordered one. What the heck - I have a Palm Vx now and a HP Jornada 520 (the HP was free), and I've had a Newton and a Sharp Wizard in the past, along with a couple of prior Palms. I also have a Blackberry (mostly e-mail, I don't use the PDA functionality on it). I've been looking for a "perfect" PDA since before they were called PDA's, and I'd always wanted to try a Psion but they were too damned expensive.

    So after using it for a full weekend +, I can see the usefulness of it to some people but I also can see why Psion's made pretty much zero dent in the consumer PDA market as a whole. I'd played with some other models before, but the Revo Plus is the first one I've owned.

    Good points to the Psion:
    -When folded, the shell is pretty solid. It's the only plastic PDA I've ever felt comfortable with in a pants pocket (the converse, though, is it's a little tall for shirt pockets).
    -The weight is comfortable to carry.
    -Battery life is excellent, and there's clear battery life indicators.
    -It's pretty quick - switching applications is fast once you get used to the clunky way to do it (or download a nice free task switcher).
    -EPOC apps seem to generally be pretty compact. With 16MB of RAM you can cram a lot o stuff into it.
    -Licensing Opera: Good Move!
    -Like CE, you can browse the palmtop's filesystem when it's docked from your PC. It makes transfers pretty easy.

    Unfortunately, it's balanced by things that truly suck:
    -The screen (the Revo is non-backlit) can be murky.
    -When open, it feels pretty flimsy and flexes in my hand. It's much nicer on a table than in the hand.
    - The connectivity software included with the Diamond version is horrid (an older EPOC Connect version). Downloading the current version from Psion (and patching it to the latest fixes) makes it usable, but it still has an alarming habit of disconnecting itself from my Windows laptop with no warning.
    -The CopyAnywhere software for Psion/Windows clipboard sharing sucks hard.
    -Syncing with Outlook (which I hate, but it is the standard for us) results in Outlook popping up to ask permission to share the e-mail addresses. Outlook thinks PsiWin's a damned macro virus! My Palm and Blackberry don't have this problem - they actually integrate with Outlook well.
    -Syncing with my Mac at home - the Palm does it for free (with a free download or software on the disc nowadays, I believe). Buy a Mac, and the software to sync a Palm is already on the hard drive. Psion charges $65 for it, and all it can do is file backups.
    -On a related note, all you can easily share from Outlook is the Contacts and Calendar files (which are probably the strongest of the built-in Psion apps, IMO). And the notes from Contacts don't transfer. Also, the Notes section of Outlook doesn't map to anything at all (no conduit), so I had to export to Notepad and copy the .txt file over. Which put it into Psion Word, not their Notepad app. Oh well.

    Basically, I like the unit, it's useful, rugged (when closed), has a nice geek factor to it, and I don't regret buying it at all. That said, I think the average consumer would be far better served with a Palm (or maybe CE), and here's why:

    -Palms are far cheaper on average. Easier impulse buy.
    -A Palm has much more seamless connectivity with the two main desktop platforms out there (Mac and Windows), and it's all included for free with the organizers. Linux support is pretty good, too.
    -Palms are smaller, lighter, and more easily pass the shirt pocket test. They also feel more solid when being used. Pocket PC's usually feel like tanks (and excepting the iPaq, are usually built like them) - they're even more rugged than the Psion is.
  • I was thinking Fu'dobe (fuh-doh-be) or Fukdobe might make a good name.

    --
  • by Y2K is bogus ( 7647 ) on Monday July 16, 2001 @09:34PM (#80769)
    You say that Psions cost more than Palms, yet you bought one for $100. I don't see your logic.

    Yes, the Revo has a lower res and smaller screen. It makes some apps difficult.

    The task switcher is odd, but switching tasks is easier if you just click on the icon on the launcher bar, it does the same thing.

    I have a 5mx and a Series 7. The 5mx is a little slower (for most things, but a lot for CPU intensive items). It works well, but the 7 has a 640x480 STN color screen and a larger keyboard. The 7 is a little bulky to carry, but the 5 isn't as nice to use for long periods.

    All in all, a 5 is a killer item, and if you have a GSM phone (I bought one just for it), it integrates really well. Phoneman can manage your phone contacts and send SMS and ringtones.

    The spreadsheet is killer, and Jotter (notepad) works really well for making little freeform databases (like conversion tables).

    It has real SQL query support for database files, via the OPL interface. Also, the contacts/database functionality is pretty sophisticated.

    If you can afford a Series 7, get it, it supports CF type 2 and PCMCIA type 2. It's fast and can hold 32MB of RAM. The enterprise version has an NE2000 ethernet adaptor built in. If you do a lot of writing, the keyboard on the 7 is awesome.

    If you can't afford a 7, the 5mx is your next best choice. It has all the same features, yet it's B&W and smaller (about 40%). It uses 2 AA batteries and runs about 20hours without the backlight on. It's keyboard is functional, but many common characters require FN-key combinations.

    The Revo is an excellent competitor to PIMs, but is too small for a lot of keyboard use. The screen is 480x240, so it has the display area of a 5 with the toolbars turned on. On the upside it has really tiny pixels which make everything look extra sharp. It also comes with a docking cradle and Phoneman builtin.

    The EPOC series of devices are lightyears ahead of any other PIM/PDA OS and application suite. EPOC is by far the most functional OS for a PDA. It doesn't have handwriting recognition, but rather uses a keyboard. The pen is like a touch screen mouse. It is well laid out and intuitive to use. It makes very good use of screen real estate and file storage. The 16MB that comes in most is storage AND memory to run, which shows just how efficient EPOC is.

    EPOC is the OS of the future for every handheld consumer device, Nokia switched to it for the new communicator series, and the new phones are awesome.
  • I get Tennessee. (I must admit that I have no experience in converting from sexagesimal to decimal, or vice-versa.) I tried Terraserver, and got Alpha, Tennessee [msn.com]. (It would appear that he's in the middle of a field, or perhaps a low-contrast suburban housing development. :)

    -Waldo
  • Yeah, but the map (see left) shows what looks like a housing development. Those photos are so grainy, you usually can't tell a house from a tee, anyhow. :)

    -Waldo
  • It's far too close - no sound difference at all - to another Free Software project, namely Linux-Kontor [linux-kontor.de]

    Have fun with the confusions.

  • KIllustrator is now known as 'Kontour' (after Adobe claimed that KIllustrator was too close to Adobe Illustrator, in case you haven't followed the news).

    This isn't a satisfactory result, except that I'm happy the developers aren't risking their careers/incomes by putting themselves in line of legal fire. This doesn't mean I'm happy with Adobe for laying claim to a word that used to be part of the English language. Far from it.
    --

  • I said here [slashdot.org], and I quote:

    That's assuming that the problem really was in the custom app and not in NT or MSSQL, but I assume any bugs where MSSQL quietly "disappears" certain information would be common knowledge by now...

    Guess I won't be taking any more crap from Microsoft defenders the next time I assume that Microsoft can't cut it - the one time I trust Microsoft not to have screwed things up, they go and let me down.

    Yep, that last laugh is pretty satisfying, at least until my major city disappears in a ball of nuclear fire :)

  • I think directly flaming MS over their product quality is pointless. There was once, a long time ago, a point to this. But nowdays, Microsoft's track record and reputation are well-established and known to everyone, so responsibility falls not upon Microsoft, but upon whoever makes the decision to use their products. It's kinda like if a monkey shoots someone: you don't blame the monkey, you blame whoever let the monkey have a gun.

    Usually there's a reason for companies to use Microsoft products such as MS SQL. The most common reasons are:

    • They don't know better
    • A MSCE (either actually certified, or a wannabe in the same mindset) employee or consultant, as part of the lock-in an job security strategy, has set them up to do that. Some PHB in IS has probably set a policy that these are the tools people must use.
    My normal reaction to this is: Do nothing, because it isn't my problem. The company will be natually punished/rewarded for its own ignorance and gullibility. If I were a stockholder, I might wish that the people responsible were fired and replaced someone more competent or honest. But realistically, I know that whatever infintesimal fraction of a share I own indirectly through some mutual fund, is utterly powerless.

    Here we have the government using Microsoft products, and using them for important things. I don't see this as being any different than the classical stories about $900 hammers and toilet seats. The "it's not my problem" approach that applies 99% of the time, doesn't apply in this instance since it partly my tax dollars that are being misappropriated, either through fraud or ignorance. But the "infintesimal fraction of a share" argument still applies. So what the fuck can be done?


    ---
  • A frequency of 1.0e-03 is pretty damned often, at least in my book!

    It depends on the job at hand. If a Fisher-Price toy plastic hammer does a poor job of driving actual metal nails into wood, that doesn't really mean it's a poor product. The hammer's job is to entertain children, not drive nails.

    MSSQL is no different. The problem isn't that it fails one in a thousand, the real problem is that someone responsible for working with nukes, thinks that 999/1000 is good enough.


    ---
  • While I agree with the point you are trying to make, MS SQL 6.5 is still the only commercial db I've seen that lets you wipe out a whole table with a single mouse click and gives no warning or confirm dialog. I've seen a reasonably competent DBA do exactly that.

    If you are trying to figure out how to do this, think bidirectional replication and a disaster recovery situation that involves installling a replacement server. (Which is something that does come up a bit in maintaining critical systems).

  • The misspelled words are Killing me.

    And yet you are still reading /.

    --
  • > You can't tell me any amount of engineering in the world can make those things "safe".

    Safer than they were anyway - safer to the point of (almost :-) passing EU regulations in my case... but as I hinted I don't necessarily think that's a good thing...
  • by DGolden ( 17848 ) on Monday July 16, 2001 @04:08PM (#80781) Homepage Journal
    Actually, a hell of a lot of really good engineering work does go into lego - and most regualtions-compliant kids toys in general. It's quite difficult to make toys that kids won't hurt themselves with - and, while they can still choke on lego, the whole choking-on-stuff thing tends to pass before you hit the lego recommended age ( and for before that, you have the unswallowable Duplo).

    Designing safe kid's toys is not easy! Note that I am a qualified mechanical engineer, with experience of meeting safety requirements for a pedal car, so this isn't just me talking crap.

    At the same time, I really think that kids these days are just too safe - all they seem to learn is how to be good little consumers...

  • Also, if it is just a bug in SELECT statements, no data is actually being lost - its just not showing up where it should be.


    This might be a cultural thing, but where I'm from, if something doesn't show up where it should be, we describe it as being "lost" (until it is "found")

    --
    Matt
  • by BattyMan ( 21874 ) on Monday July 16, 2001 @09:36PM (#80783) Journal

    Jeezus, do they still _make_ pedal carz?

    I thought they had been outlawed in principle - for safety reasons.

    I remember those well. They were a _great_ way to do all kinds of foot injuries, from pinching them in the moving parts to scraping them on the ground. There were, of course, the whole gamut of collision class problems (other kids had pedal carz, too) and then there were the running-off-the -road style problems (just put one over a curb - with or without help from another vehicle - a rollover is a distinct possibility, with pinched fingers pretty much guaranteed).

    But the _real_ way to really really kill yourself was to get a bigger kid (the bigger the better - kinda like the big-block V8 engines that were being mounted in real cars at the time) to shove you up to an honest 15MPH or so. At that kind of speed, anything could happen - except that you couldn't get yer feet anywhere _near_ the pedals, so braking was pretty much out of the question.

    It sure was a good thing we didn't live near any good, steep hills. The kids who lived near hills had _scars_.

    All I see in toy stores anymore are electric jobs with a top speed of about 2 mi/hr, and reduction gearing so strong that there's no possibility of pushing them any faster.

    DON'T GET ME WRONG! Pedal cars taught me vital lessons: that I wasn't indestructable, and that moving concrete sidewalk can _hurt_ raw skin. Both these proved invaluable as soon as I learned to ride a bicycle....

    You can't tell me any amount of engineering in the world can make those things "safe".

    Lego? Fsck that - I was known to eat _staples_!
  • Err, Tennessee... I should learn to read maps... that and I need some more caffeine.
  • by the_ed ( 22189 ) on Monday July 16, 2001 @03:49PM (#80785)
    Unless I'm wrong here, which I very well could be, those coordinates put them right here [mapquest.com], which is smack in the middle of North Carolina. Thats quite some ways from Michigan (or Maryland).

    Slashdot's traveling, I guess.

  • by the way ( 22503 ) on Monday July 16, 2001 @03:36PM (#80786)
    The memo explains the testing in detail and clarifies that the fault was isolated as a MS SQL Server bug. The problem in v6.5 was 'fixed' in 7.0, but it turned out that 7.0 had only reduced the bug's impact, not fixed it. As a regular SQL Server user (now using 2000) I can confirm that SELECT integrity bugs are not unusual, as can be seen by reviewing the bug-fix list for each service pack. The relevent part of the memo is here:

    Additional tests were developed in order to detect a systematic appearance of this SQL Server 6.5 software flaw. These tests were constructed in a such way that a presence of a flaw in the SQL Server 6.5 has been proved for sure. Microsoft did confirm a presence of this software flaw. This flaw has been filed by Microsoft as flaw No. SRX000403600845.

    In a course of transition of KI-MACS application software core from version 6.5 to 7.0 and intensive testing of the modified KI-MACS, at the end of July, 2000 one more flaw has been detected in the SQL Server 7.0. This flaw has been recognized by the Microsoft and filed as flaw No. SRX000727603512. Principal modifications introduced by the Microsoft in SQL Server 7.0 which are relating to the data security and data protection in a Database, and presence of the said flaw, are considered as creating a direct threat to data security and data protection in the SQL Server 7.0 Databases.

  • That's amazingly shitty
  • Oh, yes. There are plenty of other sites using Microsoft databases to track dangerous materials. Does that prove that they haven't lost stuff? No, it only proves that those tools are being used.

    The system with bugs apparently uses Microsoft Access (therefore using a
    Microsoft operating system). Developed at Oak Ridge, it involves a PC
    which monitors containers which rest on weight sensors. Some
    installations also use electronically-readable tags, heat sensors or
    radiation sensors. Russian seals were used, not the
    electronically-monitored Oak Ridge seals. Announced plans were for 15
    Russian facilities to be using the system.
    http://www.sandia.gov/LabNews/LN02-16-96/la1995.ht ml#8
    http://www.y12.doe.gov/orsens/pubs/inmm99report-r. pdf
    http://www.y12.doe.gov/orsens/pubs/esarda-vane.pdf
    http://rmtc.ippe.obninsk.ru/seminars/eng/tri2/NMC& A-at-RCP.pdf (2MB on
    slow link)

    The U.S. NRC had a different problem with a Microsoft database in 2000.
    The Nuclear Materials Management and Safeguards System was first
    implemented with Microsoft FoxPro, which "the computer industry no
    longer supports".
    http://www.nrc.gov/NRC/COMMISSION/SECYS/2000-0163s cy.html#ATTACHMENT 4

    The OPTI-RP software for selecting radiation protection options uses
    Microsoft Access.
    http://ean.cepn.asso.fr/pdf/EAN-2.pdf

    Microsoft Access is used for a Singapore inventory of Air Emissions,
    Watewater, Solid Waste and Toxic waste.
    http://www.dnauk.co.uk/env-pro.htm#it12

    Southern Africa's 20 Megawatt pool type reactor SAFARI-1 is automated
    with a Windows NT system, including material tracking. Also: "...we are
    looking at remote reporting and further user interfaces at the homes of
    senior plant personnel, for faster response time to incidents requiring
    operator intervention"
    http://www.adroit.co.za/news/briefs.html#ITEM27

    The Australian Radiation Incident Register uses Microsoft Access.
    http://www.arps.org.au/ARPS25abstracts.PDF (350K on slow link)

    The 2000 nuclear Information System on Occupational Exposure (ISOE) 1
    and 2 database uses Microsoft Access.
    http://www.nea.fr/html/rp/reports/2000/nea2728.pdf
  • Yeah, I guess you didn't read: http://www.cdi.org/nuclear/nukesoftware.txt

    Microbob
  • There should also be a moderation option for '+1 Good sig' :)
    __
  • Who knows how accurate my GPS is? Soundslike it did about as well as I'd expect;)

    There are blackberries growing just off the backyard here, and the area is not yet converted into 100% suburban wasteland. (Though this development is certainly doing its part ... oh well.) Since I'm not a golfer nor have any burning desire to become one, the hat you see is not mine. Whereas if you'd had a camera on a certain spot a few miles southeast of here on the 4th of July you might have gotten some good aerial shots ;)

    Cheers,

    timothy
  • Oh yes, it's all SQL Servers fault. It's got nothing to do with the implementers being inept. Hell, the Russians are normally so good at developing things, just look at the fine work they did for the ISS.

    It is inconsequential that hundreds of thousands of other sites seem to run SQL Server 6.5, 7.0, and 2000 just fine.


    Well, first of all, the bugs discovered by the Kurchatov Institute does actually exists, and acknowledged as such by Microsoft (see the mail from the MS engineer). Note the bugs are bugs within MS SQL Server, not in the implementation of the DB. So 'Oh yes, it's all SQL Servers fault.'

    I don't care to check whether the problems is fixed by now, but I guess they are, though probably not for MS SQL 6.5. (read the text)
    So every MS SQL server not patched, has the potential to be bitten by these bugs.

    A nice quote from the text:
    ...I am not going to resolve MS SQL problems by playing around data formats which means a complete redesign of KI-MACS application software core (over 5 Mb of source code in Transact SQL). By the way, I was astonished to learn that MS staff is seriously proposing such
    stupid advises as change of data formats to avoid MS SQL Server SYSTEM
    problems.
    Is it MS style of conducting business? If so, we have to be prepared to
    deal with permanent troubles for the rest of our life.
  • And if someone releases an image editor called Ophotoshop?

    ----
  • Ummmm... then why can every other image editor I have on my Mac---including a freeware program---convert between CMYK and RGB just peachy (ie, as good as Photoshop)?

    ----
  • Difference between Adobe v. Killustrator and Ford v. Kontour: The former is name confusion between two vector drawing programs; the latter is a car and a drawing program. Now I will admit that, between Illustrator and Freehand, I can choose between two programs that do everything I need except scratch my ass. But neither is even close to being a car.

    ----
  • No, Pantone, not Adobe, has a monopoly on this area because Pantone tests and mixes the inks, and publishes the swatch books. If you want Pantone support in your program, you need to pay a license fee to Pantone, NOT Adobe. (Furthermore, you're arguing spot color when I clearly was talking about CMYK. You can do spot without Photoshop, as long as you have an up-to-date and fresh swatchbook and a printer willing to accomodate your use of anything non-Photoshop.)

    And I can do a CMYK conversion in a non-Photoshop program and bring it into Photoshop with all four channels intact and correct. Did it all the time when I last worked in-house for a printer, batch converting several hundred RGB images into CMYK.

    ----
  • Also, if it is just a bug in SELECT statements, no data is actually being lost - its just not showing up where it should be.

    Have you ever used an RDBMS in anger? Your statement is analogous to saying 'if you delete a file from your file system, no data is actually lost - it's just not showing up where it should be'. That's true, of course. If you go and inspect the inode, you'll find the data is still there - at least until it gets overwritten by something else. But it's not good to you because, without doing esoteric things in the bottom of the file system, you can't get at it.

    The SELECT statement is the principal way of getting data out of an RDBMS. If it doesn't work, that RDBMS is broke. If it doesn't work and it doesn't barf, that RDBMS is not just broke, it's dangerous. I've spent twenty minutes this morning writing a heads-up to all my customers who use MS SQL Server, advising them of the problem.

  • I've installed several instances of multiple SQL Server 7 databases, usually as a temp-store in a DMZ with automagic replication to a main server, and I've never seen so much as a bit of data disappear. Admitedly the code was written by professional coders and not hacked together in 20 minutes, but the data was & is still there.

    And you can prove this how?

    Remember the nuclear materials accounting system was in use at Los Alamos for several years and they never detected thec error; the Russians were only able to detect the error because they had duplicate paper records. Do you have a papertrail (a real one, on real flattened dead trees) covering all your transactions? If not

    1. start sweating
    2. crawl over your data looking for potential problems, but do not use 'ORDER BY'
    3. warn your senior management that you may have a data loss problem now
    4. start working ouot whether and how you can do a full data audit.

    Because, face it, man. If you are using SQL Server 6.5 (or have done in the past), and you use (or any software you use uses) ORDER BY, you have lost data. Like the guys at LANL, you just don't know it yet.

  • GigsVT said:
    >Sure, it might work "as good" on your screen
    >(your screen can't show CMYK
    >correctly anyway), but when you are going to be
    >printing things on a press, you
    >need to have support for real Pantone colors.
    >Adobe continues to have a
    >monopoly in this area.

    The normal concept of Pantone spot colour is quite different from that of CMYK process colour. The latter requires (in the instance of computer modeling) a method to convert from RGB display on-screen to CMYK output (note that GhostScript does this, but is buggy and imprecise :( _and_ a method to control/calibrate the RGB display---the latter is the sticking point for the GIMP.

    Pantone is a commercial standard which anyone can make use of by _licensing_ it from the company---NeXT did this for NeXTstep, so drawing and other DTP programs were cheaper for it, since no extra license was necessary.

    However, one can do spot colours without such a license---just create a channel/separation/plate and tell the printer, ``this plate should be blue, i.e., Pantone 301'', but it won't necessarily look like that on the screen (a common trick is to say cyan==blue, magenta==red, and such like, to get spot colour blending which the typical dtp apps don't handle). This is way cool if one has a RIP or other trapping/ink manipulation tool which allows ink-substitution.

    Sadly, spot colours are misunderstood even in the graphic design industry (one Quark book author stated he didn't understand where the Pantone color numbers came from, they're from the ink formulation, so Pantone 301 is three parts cyan, 0 magenta, one yellow, no black)

    The problem with the GIMP for spot colours is there's AFAICT no multi-channel support, with an understanding for colour as applied pigment and which models the difference between additive and subtractive colour.

    William

    --
    Lettering Art in Modern Use
  • > Your statement is analogous to saying 'if you delete a file from your file system, no data is actually lost - it's just not showing up where it should be'.

    Errhm, not quite, and in the following lines yourself are actually saying why...:

    > If you go and inspect the inode, you'll find the data is still there - at least until it gets overwritten by something else.

    Whereas, with this database bug, the data won't get overwritten (unless you DELETE it first...)

    > But it's not good to you because, without doing esoteric things in the bottom of the file system, you can't get at it.

    ... whereas with this DB bug, nothing more esoteric than dropping the ORDER BY is needed. Or just re-execute the same command ten minutes later, after all, the bug is "only" 1 in 1000.

    The real problem is that you won't expect a simple SELECT ... ORDER BY statement to fail, and fubar happens if your application program acts on the result it gets from the statement (for updating other tables, displaying reports to the users, sounding (or not sounding...) an alarm about missing nukes, etc.).

  • Why now:

    SELECT count(*) FROM table WHERE {conditions};

    SELECT count(*) FROM table WHERE {conditions} ORDER BY {ordering};

    and look at the difference in numbers?

    Does SQL Server work with SELECT count(*)'s and ORDER BY's, but not with SELECT {data} ... ORDER BY's?

  • Tetris springs to mind, though it's not the best example.

    Indeed not. That's like citing Lego as an example of engineering excellence.

  • Also, if it is just a bug in SELECT statements, no data is actually being lost - its just not showing up where it should be.


    Re:Shared Source (Score:1)
    by pnatural on 08:56 PM July 16th, 2001 EST (#96)
    (User #59329 Info)
    Ever heard of SELECT INTO? A bug there would cause data to be lost. Or how about a stored proc that performs an INSERT or UPDATE based on the content of a SELECT? Add DTS into the mix, you have a million and one ways a bug in SELECT would cause data loss.
    [ Reply to This | Parent ]
    Re:Shared Source (Score:2)
    by mikeee on 09:06 PM July 16th, 2001 EST (#107)
    (User #137160 Info)
    >no data is actually being lost - its just not showing up where it should be.

    You're saying that the data isn't lost, you just can't find it?

    Hello!

    And when it comes to nuclear security, I'll take transparency over features any day; put the damn records in a flat file if you have to.
    [ Reply to This | Parent ]
    Re:Shared Source (Score:1)
    by Tuross (root@[127.0.0.1]) on 09:17 PM July 16th, 2001 EST (#113)
    (User #18533 Info) http://www.goldweb.com.au/~matt/
    Also, if it is just a bug in SELECT statements, no data is actually being lost - its just not showing up where it should be.

    This might be a cultural thing, but where I'm from, if something doesn't show up where it should be, we describe it as being "lost" (until it is "found")

    --
    Matt
    "Hope you don't think I'm rude - FUCK YOU!!"


    - - - - -
  • Maybe the GPL is a "cancer," maybe it's not. But it's never misplaced plutonium.

    - - - - -
  • An error every 1 of 1,000 operations is outstandingly crappy. Microsoft actually acknowledged it, so the bug must be real. I'll have to run some tests on SQL Server tomorrow. Has anyone else reproduced the bug? Please post if you have.

    - - - - -
  • Moderation Totals:Flamebait=1, Funny=1, Total=2

    - - - - -
  • And are you sure you are not a 15 year old "legal wizard"?
  • Ever heard of SELECT INTO? A bug there would cause data to be lost. Or how about a stored proc that performs an INSERT or UPDATE based on the content of a SELECT? Add DTS into the mix, you have a million and one ways a bug in SELECT would cause data loss.
  • With proper care, it can be as reliable and strong as Oracle and leagues stronger than MySQL or PostgreSQL.

    I don't think reliable means what you think it means. From reading the article it looks like proper care means adding extra checks to detect database corruption. It's a continuing struggle because each release has different bugs.

  • Probably because the X-Window System (not X Windows) predated MS Windows?
  • by technos ( 73414 ) on Monday July 16, 2001 @03:53PM (#80811) Homepage Journal
    Pay attention. There have been two confirmed bugs in *Microsoft's* database, causing errors. These are not a product of bad design or error on the part of the KI-MACS developers.

    In addition, there were flaws in KI-MACS that were not. But saying Microsoft is blameless is a lie.
  • Saw the G3 show or something just now?

    It did rock ;)
  • This post isn't insightful. Rather, it reminds me of the blindness the we (the Amiga crowd) once had.

    The technology the programmer sees... the operating system, the API is irrelevent. The technology the end user sees is king.

    The most important technology for PDAs is the ability to sync with their desktop mail & contact information. This is a technology that Psion doesn't have. The EPOC OS may be the greatest thing since sliced bread, but if you can't download the email addresses you entered in your PDA right to your mail program with ease, it's useless.

    Also, on a more mundane note, the reason the first poster got the Psion for $100 was because of something called *a sale* (on a discontinued item, no less). You might look into the concept - in particular, it doesn't contract the fact that Psions are generally more expensive than Palms.
  • So that is why BMW can spread huge adverts about their cabrios saying

    "Our hardware runs better without Windows" [www.hack.gr]

    ?
  • Git Yer PROOF the Slashdot's MySQL looses data right here:

    http://slashdot.org/features/01/06/10/0034241.shtm l [slashdot.org]

    Hint: how come no one bothered to comment in that article ?

    Just for the record, I think that it's better to loose data with a GPL'd database than with a Microsoft one.

  • Um, did you notice that all the other archived stories have comments ? The pages and pages of trite slashbotism at the bottom was a bit of a giveaway, y'know.
  • Korel Draw should be free of any legal issues... If you want to jump on buzzword bandwagon, then SVGK? Others: CirKle, Kalligraphy, ArtKompanion, BrushstroKe, DrawBespoKe, Kontemporary, LandsKape, um those off top of head. Sure others can think of more.

    Phillip.
  • True, PsiWin is sucky. Us psion users have been complaining for a long time about that. A lack of good customer focus I think - look at e.g. MS Active Sync - I've played with that and it is impressive. I shouldn't still be waiting for a new PsiWin that can work with IR under Win2K. OK, that is MS's fault for dropping IRCOMM support - "it confuses our customers" - thanks! But Palm didn't hang about wining - they rewrote their software to use the win2K approved IR protocols.

    However, should point out that the problem with Outlook thinking it is a macro virus is also a Microsoft one - it's part of their ridiculous SP2 security features. It assumes anything trying to access your address book is a virus.
  • Read it, please: they found an admitted bug in SQL Server 6.5. I like this quote, from a Russian engineer: "By the way, I was astonished to learn that MS staff is seriously proposing such stupid advises as change of data formats to avoid MS SQL Server SYSTEM problems."
  • by crucini ( 98210 ) on Monday July 16, 2001 @06:13PM (#80821)
    For all the MS-bashing on this story, the bug seems a bit esoteric. All software has bugs.
    Huh? "SELECT ... ORDER BY ..." is by far the most common type of SQL statement in every database project I've worked on. If the data is for human consumption, you always need an ORDER BY clause because relational databases do not store rows in any particular order. If the SELECT is not for human consumption, there are still often good reasons to request sorted data. This is a monumentally grave bug. If the system I'm developing now were on MSQL (thank God it's on Oracle instead) this bug could cause us to 'forget' amounts that are owed to us - in other words assets. Worse, we could forget liabilities and find out later that we've incorrectly reported our financial position to our investors. I would be really surprised to see a bug of this magnitude in Oracle. Oracle has many frustrating limitations and poor design decisions, but I trust it to accurately report the data it is storing.
  • by Trepalium ( 109107 ) on Monday July 16, 2001 @08:33PM (#80831)
    An incompetent DBA can lose data in any RDBMS of his or her choosing, surely.

    Indeed. However, most people rely on the fact that the database server itself won't lend a willing hand in the destruction of your data by feeding you incorrect information from SELECT commands.

    MS SQL Server is alive and kicking and pervasive throughout enterprise computing. With proper care, it can be as reliable and strong as Oracle and leagues stronger than MySQL or PostgreSQL.

    Reliable is not random data loss. If SELECTs and ORDER BY ops are not returning all the data they should, there is something seriously wrong, and the best DBA in the world probably can't do a damn thing about it. One would expect that some esoteric features might be buggy, but one that is as ubiquitous as SELECT? RDBMS's live and die by the data integrity they provide -- I wouldn't run MySQL for a mission critical system that could not ever lose or corrupt data because it was never made for that. MS SQL and Oracle are both designed to do this, and if MS SQL can't deliver, I'd call that a pretty big reliability problem.

  • by jorbettis ( 113413 ) on Monday July 16, 2001 @07:05PM (#80832) Homepage

    Never use MySQL to store anything important. Use PostgreSQL, InterBase, or some other Open Source DBMS which passes the ACID test.

    Check here [openacs.org] for a discussion of the problems with MySQL.

    The difference, though, is that MySQL does not pretend to be a real DBMS. It's problems are well known and documented. Even Las Alamos couldn't mistake it for one. MS SQL, on the other hand, is marketed as a enterprise level RDBMS. Consequently, its users have an expectation of a resonable level of quality.

    In short, it is acceptable for MySQL to lose data, it is not acceptable for PostgreSQL, Oracle, Interbase, MS SQL, or any other database in their league to behave in a similar manner.

  • Just thought to note that I've done a major update to my Debian Conference page [www.iki.fi], somebody of course posted it just before I had my report ready. :-)

    AJT

  • by mikeee ( 137160 ) on Monday July 16, 2001 @05:06PM (#80838)
    >no data is actually being lost - its just not showing up where it should be.

    You're saying that the data isn't lost, you just can't find it?

    Hello!

    And when it comes to nuclear security, I'll take transparency over features any day; put the damn records in a flat file if you have to.
  • To: Communist Party
    From: Mikrosoft
    Re: New databaseski
    Date: 11/1/1989

    Comrades,

    We offer you some of our new software which is as strong and reliable as your venerable Berlin Wall. May the Communist Party, founded on the ideals of Lenin and supported by MS SQL Server(tm), reign for another century.

    Love,
    Bill


    ======================================
  • That's for the Java portions of Microsoft's EULAs. Specifically, it reads:

    "The Software product may contain support for programs written in Java. Java technology is not fault tolerant and is not designed, manufactured, or intended for use or resale as online control equipment in hazardous environments requiring fail-safe performance, such as in the operation of nuclear facilities, aircraft navigation or communications systems, air traffic control, direct life support machines, or weapons systems, in which the failure of Java technology could lead directly to death, personal injury, or severe physical or environmental damage."
  • . I know I'm not the only one who's hand has slipped from time to time, and dragged a desktop icon to the "Recycle Bin" or folder by accident

    How the hell can you blame Microsoft for your stupidity on not being able to handle the most common input device?

    It's a sad day on slashdot when people are sinking to this level.

    I've installed several instances of multiple SQL Server 7 databases, usually as a temp-store in a DMZ with automagic replication to a main server, and I've never seen so much as a bit of data disappear.

    Admitedly the code was written by professional coders and not hacked together in 20 minutes, but the data was & is still there.

    Please people. I remember when MS started pushing SQL server, and people were pleased it was based on the (rather good) Sybase codebase, so at least keep your flames subjective rather than whining.

    Let those who manages real, large systems make intelligent comment on this. I don't, but I know people who do, and I really am curious to hear about real world problems.

    What I don't want to hear about is some'l33t MySQL server with 10 records in it doing a better job from someone barely out of school.

  • by doctor_oktagon ( 157579 ) on Monday July 16, 2001 @10:50PM (#80845)
    Microsoft has always touted the user interface of Windows NT as a selling feature, implying even a rank idiot could operate a Windows NT server (and many do). I think it's fair game to call out user interface errors when they are found.

    But by this logic Unix has an inherent failure in letting any idiot do rm -r when they've just backed up one level from a symlink, and trashed a vital directory structure! My point was that blaming a standard human-computer interface allowing you to delete a database hardly constitutes MS evil.

    I don't even dare apply Windows NT or MSSQL7 service packs to it

    Try it, with SQL server it usually works. If it doesn't then revert to your backup.

    That said, I do use it myself at work for the website and the online ordering for non-critical data such as pricing, and minimal customer data. If information is lost, it's not important, because it will not affect operations at the company one bit

    I think you may find "online ordering" is fairly mission critical for those websites who rely on the Internet as a shop-front, and thousands of those rely on MS SQL Server. I rarely recommend MS products, and even rarer when they are used as components of web servers (I'm a security consultant after all), but I think the product is being flamed far more than it deserves here.

    I'd deploy Oracle on Solaris 8 days a week if I could, but it's expensive, full of magic (none of which is in manuals, it's smoke & mirrors DBAing), and is only cost-effective for real cash-generating business entities. If you want a reasonably straightforward system with cheap support costs (in terms of manpower), then there are far worse things than deploying SQL server.

  • Wouldn't a national laboratory like LANL be eligible for Microsoft's 'Shared Source' program?

    Then they could fix the bug in their database that the Russians found.

    For all the MS-bashing on this story, the bug seems a bit esoteric. All software has bugs. I doubt they would be better off with an open source database given the mission-criticalness of the application. The best open-source database is still incomplete compared to any commercial RDBMS.

    Also, if it is just a bug in SELECT statements, no data is actually being lost - its just not showing up where it should be.

  • by ErikTheRed ( 162431 ) on Monday July 16, 2001 @03:25PM (#80847) Homepage
    Especially developed tests did confirm that a source of random errors is an error in execution of the 'SELECT' with 'ORDER BY' (sorting by) statement by the Microsoft SQL Server in version 6.5, and such error is not provided by any SQL Server diagnostic. Evaluated mean value for frequency of appearance the said error is about 1.0e-03 per execution of 'SELECT' with 'ORDER BY' statement.
    A frequency of 1.0e-03 is pretty damned often, at least in my book!
  • Since when is lost data in SQL server not a MS issue? Sounds pretty damn cut a dry to me!

  • I don't know what your problem was, but 2-3 years ago I had MS SQL running with close to a million records added daily. This was on a 2x PPro 200 with 512 mb ram (course that hardware was damn expensive at the time).

    Almost always (note almost) the problem with pretty much all sql servers is due to the admin not knowing enough about it to run it properly. I've seen some really crappy Oracle servers running on 32 proc Sun systems along with some really kick ass Oracle servers on a 4 proc Sun system. The DBA makes or breaks sql systems these days a whole lot more than the sql server software itself.
  • by Enigma2175 ( 179646 ) on Monday July 16, 2001 @07:25PM (#80857) Homepage Journal
    lets you wipe out a whole table with a single mouse click and gives no warning or confirm dialog

    mysql>show databases
    LittleData
    BigData
    mysql
    mysql>drop database BigData;
    ok, 0 rows affected

    mysql>show databases
    LittleData
    mysql
    mysql>

    Damn, looks like I wiped a whole database(not just a table) with a single command with no warning or confirm dialog. The point is any inept administrator can lose data. You mention replication, but what good does replication do in this instance? The database gets dropped from your replicated DB as well. Time to find the tapes....


    Enigma

  • In a course of transition of KI-MACS application software core from version 6.5 to 7.0 and intensive testing of the modified KI-MACS, at the end of July, 2000 one more flaw has been detected in the SQL Server 7.0. This flaw has been recognized by the Microsoft and filed as flaw No. SRX000727603512. Principal modifications introduced by the Microsoft in SQL Server 7.0 which are relating to the data security and data protection in a Database, and presence of the said flaw, are considered as creating a direct threat to data security and data protection in the SQL Server 7.0 Databases.

    [sigh]

    and MS wants us to trust them with the .NET

    Check out the Vinny the Vampire [eplugz.com] comic strip

  • ... makes me want to install Red Hat.
  • by sasha328 ( 203458 ) on Monday July 16, 2001 @03:31PM (#80862) Homepage

    KIllustrator is now known as 'Kontour' (after Adobe claimed that KIllustrator ...)

    We need to ban the letter 'K' from all Linux software. The misspelled words are Killing me.

    What's next? kmdrTaco?

  • The funny bit was GM claiming that they'd never heard of Beretta, that the name came from a computer program that randomly generated names. Apparently nobody in all of GM owns a gun or has ever heard of Robert Blake.
  • Even if this Ford car was named "Kontour" (it's named "Contour"), Ford would have absolutely no legal grounds to sue the KDE team. Killustrator and Adobe Illustrator are two different products in the same market, which is where trademark law is applied. Cars and software should be able to have the same or similar names without threat of legal action. Of course, this is all in theory, and IANAL.
    -mdek.net [mdek.net]
  • Re:GIMP can't replace PS until CMYK patents expireM

    Sure, it might work "as good" on your screen (your screen can't show CMYK correctly anyway), but when you are going to be printing things on a press, you need to have support for real Pantone colors. Adobe continues to have a monopoly in this area.
    -

  • Good idea.

    By banning the letter "k", distributions would have to refer to their "kernel" package by its real name---Linux! It almost makes too much sense!

    As a corollary, maybe they would then call their distributions something besides "Linux". Perhaps "operating system".
  • Trying to go first, I'll just endorse veKtor as the new name for killu.

    Unsettling MOTD at my ISP.

  • thanks for the consideration.
    ~
  • it routinely loses data on some sites ive put it onto. I've had user accounts mysteriously vanish without a trace. Thankfully these were minor sites, like messageboards, but you know some fool out there is recommending to his company to use it for financial transactions because its 'fast and open source'....
  • ..between Rt 66 and Country Club Way. I kept zooming in until I could see the top of Timothy's head. Ugh! That golf hat with the pom pom is ugly.
  • ... selection of the most appropriate DBMS is a very difficult and controversial issue. KI had significant experience in dealing with DBMS of various manufacturers. However, in a course of selection DBMS for KI site-wide CMAS decision was made to follow on LANL recommendations and to implement Microsoft SQL Server DBMS as a 'backbone' for KI CMAS.

    Obviously they made the wrong choice. Now we can truly blame MS for the end of the world! Who knows, maybe SQL server is really Skynet in disguise... (see movie Terminator)

  • Having worked with many a Russian programmer, I can attest to their competence as programmer. They do like oderly processes and document their systems to a fault, but the software works as specified (even .0 versions) and if you find a bug, they fix correctly and quickly. Most of the times, they find the problem before we report it.

  • Nobody said it was SQL-Server.

    I think it's time they stopped using MS-Access. Obviously the transactions aren't working right. Nor is the 'repair db' button. No matter how many times that was clicked, the data's still missing. Port attempts to FoxPro have yielded similar problems, and Excel now refuses to load on their server.
  • In Germany we got a guy who has stolen plutonium from atomic recycling factory!
    Apparantly the security there was so low that he just had to put it asides and take it with him home. check out [spiegel.de] the german magazine "spiegel online".
    You may need babelfish [altavista.com]
  • I find it hard to believe that MS releases a commercial server product that actually loses data as a result of it's normal running. As users of MySQL, the slashdot staff should be aware of the precautions necessary with any database use -- even fault-impervious Open Source Tee Emm databases -- to prevent data loss and allow recovery. I place the blame for the missing nuclear material in the hands of the government adminsistrators, who were obviously too lazy to do their jobs.

    I will agree that choosing the correct RDBMS solution is crucial. Smart companies use Oracle, not MS.
    _____________________________________________ _____

  • Wow, I think I've seen about 10 MS SQL databases screwing up in VERY critial environments. A military/government really shouldn't use Microsoft products when people's lives are on the line. In fact, they shouldn't rely on technology in general that much.

    D/\ Gooberguy
  • I place the blame for the missing nuclear material in the hands of the government adminsistrators, who were obviously too lazy to do their jobs.

    Well duh. They work for the Gov't. Being lazy IS thier job!


    Carl G. Jung
    --

  • Haven't read the EULA for SQL Server, but I recall the NT 4 EULA saying something about not using that software for systems whose reliabilty is life or death. Anybody have that wording?


    Carl G. Jung
    --

  • by well_jung ( 462688 ) on Monday July 16, 2001 @03:27PM (#80910) Homepage
    Umm, what exactly are imaging professionals going to use if not Photoshop? And in a world where Quark [quark.com] is the only alternative for DTP, Adobe ain't so bad.


    Carl G. Jung
    --

  • 1) Some of the finest programmers in the world were (are?) Russian. Tetris springs to mind, though it's not the best example. Traditionally they didn't have the American option of throwing cycles at a problem until it went away.

    2) The Russians were given the program by the Americans. Offhand I don't remember who developed it, but it was a custom job.

Beware of Programmers who carry screwdrivers. -- Leonard Brandwein

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