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Slashback: Apple, Lawyers, Backbones 107

More below on improving OS X security, AOL GPL SNAFUs, Mandrake's reputed layoffs (short answer: No.), Big Daddy's control over gaming in Connecticut, and more. All below in tonight's episode of Slashback.

We are from France! And we're doing fine ... PovRayMan writes "Mandrakesoft has denied rumors of it's recent layoffs and management change due to "financial liquidity." The article mentions how the former CEO, Henri Poole, agreed on the management change. The article even goes out to say that their "prospects never looked so good" with the recent release of Mandrake 8. Either way, I'm downloading Mandrake 8 iso's right now and look forward to playing with it."

Like Alar for the other kind of apple. Lots of people were interested in the possible security flaws in OS X; thanks to Alex Salkever of BusinessWeek, we have word from Apple SE Manager Jeff Gagne, who writes: "We have just posted a Mac OS security web page for people looking for information concerning security updates, security notifications, etc. involving Mac OS X. Please visit the following url for more information:"

Follow the bouncing lawyers, with a mallet and a browser. Mike Haisley of AOL watchdog writes with an update to yesterday's AOL And The GPL story: "It seems that America Online has their legal team working overtime on this one, site was pulled, and back up, and we were just given notice that it's going down again." Here is the Emergency Mirror.

Go forth and legislate no more. mikey573, pointing to a Hartford Courant Article, writes: "It's nice to see that Connecticut governor John Rowland is protecting gamers' rights by vetoing a bill that would have limited access to arcade point-and-shoot games: "Asserting that government should not act as 'Big Daddy,' Gov. John G. Rowland said Thursday that he will veto a bill barring children under 18 from playing 'point-and-shoot' video games in public places." I'm going to play Duck Hunt now in celebration! My only concern is the Connecticut legislature got as far as passing the bill in the first place." Well said.

Erratus, errata, erratum. Jamie would like to make several corrections to Monday's story about Macromedia being blackholed:

(1) I really shouldn't have singled out in the headline. They're just one backbone that uses the MAPS RBL to block non-mail traffic from their subscribers. In fact, was the backbone that blocked web access from one of our submittors.

And (B), Paul Vixie, the co-founder of MAPS, is no longer the CTO of

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Slashback: Security

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  • by Anonymous Coward
    Check these out -
    take it tux shirt []
    cereal shirt []
    Both available from the beerho [] online store!
  • by Anonymous Coward
    You don't need to be Kreskin to cut and paste a post from yesterday, either.
  • SimHealth [] by Maxis (in 1994, before they sold their soul to EA) probably came the closest to creating a SimPolitics. SimHealth starts in 1992 and gives you 8 years to fix the health care system in the United States. It was a very, very hard game simply because every decision made always later seemed to be the wrong one. Juggling public opinion, political pressure, personal conviction, and logistics was nightmarishly hard in that game. Much of the seeming futility in the game gave light to the madness of politics.

    In the beginning you must choose your personal values from a series of diamond-shaped sliders and then foray through a maze of proposals and ideas to actually fulfill what you personally believe in. It's much harder than you would ever dream, and the difficult nature of this so-called game probably limited its popularity, as its one of the least known (and least-liked!) Sim games. I bought it for $10 in 1996 or so when Maxis sold out to EA, and it's no longer available.

    Do YOU have a 3-digit slashdot UID?
  • God knows, we certainly wouldn't want a mob rallying against threats to our freedom...

    Did you read the tripe you wrote before hitting the submit button, or is submission just kind of an automatic thing for you?

    (Read into that whatever you like...)

  • I couldn't agree more. The herd mentality is a terrible thing, but to think that it's going to disappear would be silly.

    I say take the pragmatic approach. Rather than allow the herd to be used as a means of curtailing our liberties, let's instead try to harness it's energy to defend them.

  • if the shareware author's motives for the payment were to "ensure future development" they would opensource the project instead

    What the shareware notice probably ought to say is "you should pay the shareware fee to help ensure future development of the product by its author." This would indicate a cause-and-effect relationship between getting paid and working on that particualar program's codebase.

    The nerve of some people, wanting to get paid for their work. On the other hand, you're right, open source is the best way for a really good project to achieve (relative) immortality.

  • If you'd RTFP, you'd see this:

    Why would you be surprised that Apple is having trouble releasing security information?

    Read this as "They've never done it before, so of course they're going to have problems finding a good way to get information out."
  • No, and I'm so damn jealous.

    I'll see your three digit ID, and raise you to four digits...


  • No shadowed passwords in MacOS X?

    This [] tech report begs to differ.

  • But what happened when they went after the Baldwins???
  • Not quite. The GPL grants you additional rights to distribute (not use) the software if you follow all of the terms of the license. Normally you would have no such rights to redistribute, other than the normal rights of Fair Use (getting smaller by the day, I might add). None of the terms of the GPL kick in until you attempt to distribute the software or a derivative of it.

    The right to use is given to you by your supplier of the software at the same time they give you the software, either through selling it to you or providing it as a free download.

    Caution: contents may be quarrelsome and meticulous!

  • Do YOU have a 3-digit slashdot UID?

    No, and I'm so damn jealous. Why, do you know where I can get one? ;)

    Caution: contents may be quarrelsome and meticulous!

  • The big question in my mind is: what kind of ISP purchases incomplete connectivity through Abovenet, and doesn't let on to their users that they may not be able to visit sites like macromedia and PeaceFire on a basically unpredictable schedule? Abovenet and MAPS can do whatever the heck they want, but if they're not letting on that they're not selling "the whole Internet" as it were, or their customers who resell connectivity aren't passing this info on, then someone's committing fraud. I'd be going postal if it were my ISP or their upstream.

    Actually, another question: even if PeaceFire knew that Media 3 was about to be blocked, why would it necessarily be an evil motive for them to go ahead with the transfer to Media 3? Perhaps (and this is a mere supposition on my part) the proprietors of PeaceFire wanted to make this exact point, that sometimes the RBL blocks legitimate access to web sites which aren't spammers. Surely pointing out a fact that is acknowledged to be true by all can't be considered a "smear" campaign, can it? The truth will set you free, and all that...

    Caution: contents may be quarrelsome and meticulous!

  • I know, but on the plus side it's clickable, so it's not like you have to cut and paste it.

    Caution: contents may be quarrelsome and meticulous!

  • Illegal search and seizure laws would apply just as they would to any other search for anything else. It's ludicrous that you can get in trouble for illegally possessing hard drugs (which, according to you cops could already shake down teenagers for) but not for tobacco, which is considered equally dangerous to teens (although not apparently to adults).

    I just think it's hypocritical - if tobacco is really that bad for teens (not that I have any reason to think it isn't) then why isn't it treated with the same heavy-handed authority as other drugs which are illegal for teens? Surely if the War on Drugs is such a winning strategy, we can use it for tobacco too...

    Caution: contents may be quarrelsome and meticulous!

  • My description describes EXACTLY how copyright licences work. In fact my description is startlingly similar to your last paragraph except you use terms such as "no rights" and "use" innappropriatly.

  • ates.html []

    Did you even read the page through? Granted, there aren't that many problems yet.

  • gotta love soccer moms. she's probably too busy riding around in her suv while talking on her cell phone to actually take part in her childrens lives. thats it let the tv raise them then complain when they think they can fly like the power rangers and jump off the roof.

    sing it with me folks..


    use LaTeX? want an online reference manager that
  • <I>There are about 241 spams from email and usenet involving Macromedia. I didn't attempt to filter if they came directly or were spamming Macromedia themselves. Aparently, MAPS was justified in listing with this proof.<i>
    Macromedia did fuck up. Everyone knows this. They ran a opt-in list which did not confirm - you could subscribe your enemies to it. What MAPS did to retaliate was to block their mail server. So far, no problem. Then, they blocked Macromedia's *web server*. Big problem. <BR><BR>
    1. When a mail server is blocked by MAPS, mail from it gets bounced. The bounce says "I don't accept mail from you, because you are on the RBL." The sender knows what has gone wrong, and has the choice to get unlisted (well, sorta - this is the other problem). A web server operator is given no indication that visitors are being blocked from her site. She has no way of knowing that she is expected to modify her behavior.
    2. RBL at the backbone level is not consentual. Very few people, and no non-technical people, have a choice of backbone. Even if they did, all backbones could one day choose to subscribe to the RBL. This would clearly be a form of censorship.
    There *is* an ethical way to use the RBL. Simply add an additional header to mail which says "X-RBL: Possible spam". would be totally cool if they stuck with this method - but they don't. And that's why we're angry.
  • I know abovenet cannot add a SMTP header except for mail servers they control. Duh. I should have been more clear.

    1. What they are currently doing is unethical for the reasons I gave.
    2. There is an ethical way to use the RBL.

  • At in the OS X special report, there is a discussion about how easily accessible the password file is in OS X. Apparantly, there is no shadow file.

  • Although MacOS has gone through ten major revisions,
    Actually, MacOS went through 9 revisions before they killed it and replaced it with NeXT, whose fifth revision has been renamed to MacOS X and whose fourth revision was named OpenStep for Mach. Sorry to pick nits, but DAMN it's fun!
  • Why would you be surprised that Apple is having trouble releasing security information? For years their advocates have touted the unhackability of the Mac OS platform. Its easy to listen to your own and your advocate's PR.

    People have been yelling at MS about security for years, and their improvment has come at a snail's pace. Hotfixes are still numbered with a byzantine numbering system (applying them in numerical order can potentially cancel them out, so its painfully humorous when you see some leet NT admin touting his batch script that installs them in numerical order) and there are rarely rollup hotfixes (I want everything post spX, period).

  • Nonsense. Most of the Sim games allow you to do something along the lines of sending Godzilla into downtown Detroit and then killing him by crashing an airliner into him. When I played SimCity, I'd always save and then trash the entire place before I quit the game. That's good clean American fun, that is.
  • Well, if you run any box and any OS on not enough RAM you'll crash it.

    I'm not impressed.

  • You people... well, I'm speechless in front of your legistlature system.

  • The other problem, of course, being that the real process of governing is just not fun maybe you havent noticed but, all of those games are boreing, it would fit right in
  • A mob-like attitude is horrible. It encourages ignorance, irrational thought, and prejudice.

    Perhaps my editorial quotes around my statement earlier weren't obvious to you. I don't believe we should allow any injustice to occur - especially in the realm of freedom. I strongly believe we should make judgments from an intelligent perspective; and what he did encouraged neither thought or intelligence, but merely judgment.
  • I see. And by that token Flight SImulators make me a pilot, SimCity makes me a qualified mayor, and Transport Tycoon has made me a millionaire. Oh, and Black and White makes me GOD.

    The difference you fail to notice is that the skills you claim come from other games are in fact learned skills; something that requires a great deal of time, energy, and investment. From the standpoint of violence in schools and so forth, we aren't talking about highly-trained mercenary killers, but kids that grabbed guns - and thus the apples/oranges relationship between Transport Tycoon and whatever shoot 'em up this was designed to restrict.

    This doesn't mean I agree with the bill - but I do highly believe that comments like what you posted only encourage a mob-attitude that rallies against whatever 'threatens our freedom.' Just because you disagree with it doesn't mean you're right to be demeaning, insulting, or riddled with fallacies.
  • You've got to watch out fot those circles guys. Last week a whole bunch of 'em jumped me on the way to the bank and made away with my weeks takings.

    Turns out they were so full of pi that they were behaving irrationally.

    Shoot the filthy beasts
  • try here 02 26&cid=113
  • The Midori developer isn't the one who gets to decide whether AOL is complying with the GPL or not. The GPL lists certain conditions that must be met in order to legally redistribute GPL-licensed software. Having a link to Midori's webpage in the about box isn't one of the conditions. You should read the followups to the message you're talking about.
  • They both suck, but ORBS sucks less.
  • that is not how copyright licenses work. the GPL is not a contract, it is a license to use a copyrighted work.

    if it were a contract, you would have to agree to it. since its not, you dont.

    instead, before the license, you have no rights. you dont own the material. the GPL grants you permission to use the copyrighted material. so your use implicitly shows agreement of the GPL (or violation of copyright).

  • What company has ever not taken that step before finally going public with the truth about a week later?

    I love mandrake 8, so I wish them my full support, but I must say hearing a company deny layoffs is hardly reassuring, since it's a normal step in the downward spiral of doomed companies.

    Hopefully it's true in their case though, cause I'd hate to lose Mandrake, it'd be a big blow to Linux.


  • "You know, we need a SimPolitics and then we can get rid of all our politicians (no need for them anymore, anyone who plays the game instantly becomes a politician)." Another good idea would be Sim-Parent.
    -- Judas96
    "...don't take a nerf bat to a knife fight." - Joe Rogan, said on News Radio
  • Damn, that's the funniest thing I've seen on Slashdot all week.
  • Governor John Rowland should have told the legislature to add an adendum which stated that no one under the age of 18 would be allowed access to: point and shoot games, toy guns (including any action figures which come with toy green army men), nerf guns, super soakers, paintball guns or most importantly real guns. He could tell them that if they could pass the bill with those additions he would gladly sign it. A bill like that would last about 2 seconds before being thrown in the trash.
  • For years their advocates have touted the unhackability of the Mac OS platform. Its easy to listen to your own and your advocate's PR.

    WTF?!?! does this have to do with OS X? OS 9 and the previous versions have nothing to do with OS X. They are completely different. So security issues/strengths are not at all similar. It's like comparing Apples and ........... Unixes.

  • I'm speaking to the "others" that jumped in with me. I'm certainly not referring to an anonomymous coward as noble as yourself!
  • I don't see any harm in losing the Baldwin's... I would consider it a service to the country! =)
  • Mod this up for great justice.
  • Well, if by hacking you mean crashing, yes, just today actually. Luckily none of its zero user accounts had been compromised, and none of its zero network services had been disturbed, and there were just two applications running because available memory didn't allow for any more, or I might have actually lost work.
  • Although the measure passed in the CT legislature was undoubtedly too restrictive, yet I can understand where the fear on which it was based comes from.

    I pop in to the arcade now and again while waiting for a movie, to see the advances in consumer-market VR mostly -- my favorite to date features the player as the pilot of a pedal-powered aircraft, sloloming through a course of teathered baloons.

    The increasing realism of shooter games is the most disturbing development. I watched a 12-year old playing a StarWars game. The opening scenes of flying through the Walkers reminded me of EmpireStrikesBack for Atari.

    The most disturbing scene came next and involved battling storm troopers. This was difficult to watch. The storm troopers were close to life size, and were so artfully depicted, they were nearly indistinguishable from actors in a live-action movie. Their death-throes were chillingly realistic. Watching that kid totally absorbed in picking them off, steadily moving through the game past the photo-realistic dead people...

    In short, maybe I'm getting old, but games like this make me think an age-appropriate rating system may be appropriate for today's arcade games.

    We've come a long way from table-top Space Invaders.

  • Although MacOS has gone through ten major revisions, there are still plenty of dangerous potential security problems.

    For example, IP over FireWire gives an attacker more than enough bandwidth to execute a serious denial-of-service attack from up to 100 meters away, and without degrading his or her or its video camera feed of you picking your nose at the computer, thanks to isochronous transfers. Add USB and AirPort to the mix and you've got some major potential security issues! But don't worry about good ol' IDE; his cable length is less than 3 feet.

    Seriously though, if the default browser is still Internet Explorer, that program itself could be the biggest security hole of all.

  • compares Williams' lawsuit to "a smoker suing a tobacco company."

    People aren't suing tobacco companies because they're addicted to cigarettes or spent lots of money on cigarettes, but rather because the companies deliberately lied about making cigarettes more addictive and lied about the health hazards of cigarettes for decades after they knew cigarettes caused all kinds of health problems.

    There's just a slight difference between a product that is harmful if abused, and one that is plain harmful.

  • While I'm babysitting your children why don't I pay your bills, fuck your husband (assuming your still married) and wash the car while you go to your brunch at Debbies house.

    If this is the future of political involvement in the country's social issues, I'm moving to Canada.

    I may have started the fire, but you let it get out of control!

  • Anyway it's better to shoot criminals and terrorists than those poor helpless ducks!

    I always wanted to shoot that damn dog for laughing at me.

  • Looking at this slashback, I can avoid to think that it makes many *mistakes* in a row... Add this to the fact that some "hot" stories are available on other sites for a few days... Concerning the AOL vs GPL story, there is a post in the discussion from a developer of Midori Linux stating that AOL is perfectly compliant with the GPL, just open the About box... Maybe it's time to create a QA departement, don't you think ;-)
  • I guess if AOL won't listen to the rules in the GPL then why can someone hold me to a agreement I just go and click through?

    What do people see in the future of this case?

    Is this a huge plot to take the GPL down? Will Transmeta sue AOL since it's essentially their software (if the GPL don't matter).

    Why AOL can't win the fight: If they attact the GPL then they will lose - it's the GPL that got them the code to the software in the first place. If a court says the GPL isn't binding then people will go scrambling to sue each other and hopefully it will all land on AOL's lap.

    Otherwise, send Mandrake some money... I love those guys.

  • Wow, so much helpful information... No list of known issues, no actual helpful suggestions for imporoving security over the default install, just a link to the update page (which only lists the 10.0.x updates), and statements like this:
    There is a variety of third-party software designed to increase the security of your system, such as firewall software. You should research the available offerings to determine whether they can help in your environment.
    No kidding? How about a link, you twits? Or at least mention that most any MacOS X Software you need can be found through Softrak, at []? Oh, and they have a mailing list that you can subscribe to. It'll be interesting to see whether they even bother to send out any notices.
  • I guess I'm just somewhat disappointed. It looks like they couldn't decide whether they wanted to write the information for people who know something about security, or for the stereotypical clueless Mac user. So, you end up with information that's not detailed enough to be of any real use to anybody. For example, they tell you:
    Apple configures its products for security by turning off certain services by default. These include: Remote Login, File Sharing, and FTP. Activating any of these services can degrade the network security of your system.
    But no mention of where those settings are contolled, and no mention of what the security issues with each is - i.e. SSH is significantly more secure than FTP or Telnet.

    I still don't think they're serious about security. We'll see, I guess.

  • As I mentioned in the first place, those aren't really "security updates", they're lists of security problems that happen to be fixed in previous general system software updates. It remains to be sen whether Apple will ever release a "security only" update, and how they'd distribute it if they did.
  • I saw an annonymous coward post that Jamie's part of the RBL blocked Peacefire (blocked because it was moved by Media 3 w/o an proof of intent). I call this a conflict of intrest. And while Jamie's trying to atone for his mistakes, the association between him and Bannet Haselton(who's been spreading more lies about MAPS, Above.Net, et al) still says that Jamie needed to pass this story to another editor.

    WolfSkunks for a better Linux Kernel

  • The entire "games cause violence" thing was palyed out several years earlier. The same people complaining, the same obliviousness to cause and effect, and the same solutions.

    In the 80's, it was Dungeons and Dragons that was supposedly "causing" kids to go nuts. Todaqy it's guns. THere was probably something before dungeons and dragons (Rock 'n' Roll probably had similar responses when kids went off the dep end), and there will be more in the future.

    Let'sface it; some people just aren't stable, and latch on to some type of fantasy as they leave reality behind. If it wasn't D&D or guns, it could just as well be Mickey Mouse comic books. You can kiill a *lot* more people trying to be Black Pete you ever could with guns and explosives. The kids at Columbine or McVeigh could have killed magnitudes more if they'd used poison. Or suppose they built their rocket to paint the moon black (one of Black Pete's escapades). Or messed with the highways, or the water supply. Shall we ban all of the classic comic books to prevent these?


  • The supposed Macromedia Spam [] you link to is mostly 3rd party resellers, training companies and warez CD sellers sending spam, not Macromedia themselves. If that is the justification for a RBL block against Macromedia then MAPS truly has gotten out of hand.

    Chris Cothrun
    Curator of Chaos
  • ...compares Williams' lawsuit to "a smoker suing a tobacco company."

    Ne pas?

  • Bennett Haselton has also lied to you. He's still talking on Usenet ( Drop in some time!). He is being clued in by many folk as we speak, while continuing to spread disinformation. Talk with someone else from PeaceFire to confirm Bennet's allegations. We (tinw) just don't belive him anymore.

    Your argument presumes that at the time that Peacefire began hosting with Media3, that it was already blocked by MAPS. I believe that to be incorrect, though only Bennett can confirm that for certain.

    You can claim that Bennett is wrong, but don't call him a liar.

  • These are the same legislators who (in some states like Illinois at least) have made it illegal for minors to buy tobacco but not to possess it. Morons.

    Caution: contents may be quarrelsome and meticulous!

  • But the GPL was never a click-through license in the first place. It never imposed any limits on use of the software, just on distribution, whereas most click-throughs work over the use of the software very thoroughly (no reverse engineering, don't use on Sundays, no liability of the author, etc.) and don't even touch distribution, because the existing copyright laws already handle that quite nicely.

    The GPL is a license that adds to the usefulness of a software package, rather than detracting from it as normal licenses do. A defeat for the GPL doesn't seem to have much of an upside to me.

    Caution: contents may be quarrelsome and meticulous!

  • But it isn't up to Midori. The Midori crew don't control licensing on Midori linux; it's GPL, and it's components have hundreds of authors, all of who released under GPL, so they GPL must be obeyed.

    Yes, the intent seems fine, there's no real big problem with it... but if we stick to the letter of the wording, AOL is supposed to be offering source as well. Heck, all they have to do is form a deal with Midori and offer it through Midori... even that would work.

    At any rate, I'm sure AOL, as big and evil as they are, didn't intend to 'screw the GPL crowd' over.... their lawyers thought they were in compliance, and once they figure out what to do, I'm sure they'll simply host a mirror of the Midori source archive and be done with it, perhaps changing some wording on their product. After all.. it's bad for business for a public company, especially a high-profile one, to take unecessary legal risks.

    So let's cut them a wee bit of slack and see if they fix it, as most other infringers have done in the past.
  • Wanna back that statement up, please?
  • s/gotten out of hand/made an error/
  • Logically, this should mean:

    "Something there's a huge flap over that turns out not to amount to squat in the long run."
  • This reminds me - pretty much OT but kinda the same mindset: I went to my local gun range recently for the first time. It's a range that's used by the police during the week and is open to the public on weekends. During my introduction to the range, the rangemaster told me that they don't allow any paper targets that have silhouettes or pictures of people on them. Apparently, someone had seen the police training with these, and went to the city council and complained that the police were learning how to shoot people.

    I started to say, "But..."

    And the rangemaster just put up his hand - "I know, I know..."

    The only kinds of targets allowed at the range now are the basic circular style.

    True story.
  • > that nonsensical and illusory 'freedom'
    You're right to life, and property is illusionary and nonsensical ?!

    > promised by the Illuminati's Constitution is /way/ more important than keeping children's brains in their heads

    That's a slippery slope argument.

    You can make all the laws you want to stop people from from hurting and killing others, but it won't stop every "unbalanced" person.
    Like the previous poster said: " No law, passed at any level of government, will ever be able to prevent kids going postal"

    Ben Franklin said it best: "Those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

  • hah, that's classic! still a little pet peeve of mine is when shareware authors say:

    "you should pay the shareware fee to help ensure future development of the product."

    because if the shareware author's motives for the payment were to "ensure future development" they would opensource the project instead. i have no problems with the shareware concept, but pretending that the program will only progress with money is a lame excuse for extracting a fee.

    - j

  • For years their advocates have touted the unhackability of the Mac OS platform. Its easy to listen to your own and your advocate's PR.
    Oh, so you've hacked a Mac box recently?


  • Ha, ha. People like you are a pain in my...


    I think Microsoft sort of wussed out on this one, though. All they had to do was create their own rebranded BSD (based on an NTFS filesystem perhaps?) and they could keep it in the family...

    (How hard would that be, anyway?)

  • Interesting (cynical and a bit slanted, though not inaccurate) way of putting it.

    So somebody is playing both ends against the middle in this scenario, but it's unclear who. I have to say, though, I don't think it's precisely a First Amendment issue (though it is partially that); it's more just a general affront to freedom.

    I look at it this way: stickers and rating systems are a Good Thing, even if somewhat flawed (I think the TV rating system is probably the cleanest way of dealing with it -- general guideline plus specific warnings). But all they are is guidelines, and I don't think they should be treated as anything but. Gov. Rowland made the right decision. Some things you simply can't regulate like that.

  • Will Transmeta sue AOL since it's essentially their software (if the GPL don't matter).

    Would Transmeta really sue AOL? In the original article, here [] is a comment from one of the developers discussing how AOL's changes were rolled back into Midori and how they enjoyed working with AOL.

  • If that is the justification for a RBL block against Macromedia then MAPS truly has gotten out of hand.

    Here [] is a personal account of my getting spammed by Macromedia themself; not a third party. It was part of their 'the Edge' mailing list (as stated in the article text of Jamie's original story []). I never signed up for the list, they refused to stop trying to mail it to an invalid address, and it took maybe 15-20 minutes of my time to stop the mail.

  • Indeed, Jamie, it is important that large, heavily-visited sites remain accessible. I fully agree, and suspect most others would as well.

    I am a little bit uncertain, though, about your positions on the following statements:

    • ISP's should not be allowed to block spam; it should be done individually by the user.
    • Even if small ISP's serving end-users are allowed to block spam, large ISP's that serve other ISP's should not be allowed to.
    • Large ISP's and backbones are common carriers that cannot block anything.
    • Only the specific IP address(es) from which spam originates should ever be blackholed.
    • Operators of large, popular or heavily-visited sites should be given the benefit of the doubt before being blackholed, more than smaller, less-known or less-used sites.
    It seems that opposition to MAPS occurs primarily when they block people's personal favorite sites, and never any other time. No one RBL'ed has tried to mail me for months, but this past winter there were attempts from,, and I don't recall hearing you, Bennett, or anyone else coming to the defense of *those* domains; in fact, everyone seemed to be pretty happy about not getting spam from them.

    I am unclear why Macromedia deserves to be treated differently if they spam than Insight was, or the others.

    Maybe you could explain your thoughts on that, and on the position statements I listed. Thanks!


  • We meaning the population with the Slashdot mindset.

    If GPL wins, the victory is obvious.

    If GPL loses, that means that a click-through license is not enforcable.

    Take your pick. I'll take either.

  • I expect that blaming Canada would be next...

    Hmm... here I think you are wrong. As you mentioned, people like to "point fingers at other than where the real blame lies." As everyone knows, Canada really IS the problem, so they will be the last to be publicly blamed.
  • OK, forgive me for feeding the troll, but this sort of garbage really annoys me.

    Yeah, yeah, NT4 is worthless garbage, it crashes all the time, right? Monumentally insecure, right? Odd that, I haven't had a BSOD on my home machine for > 6 months (since the last time I started messing with kernel-space drivers), and it's been compromised, ooh... no times at all! Gosh I must be sooo lucky, huh? Oh yes, and it's had 90 day uptimes, runs a local web and mail server, caching-only BIND, NAT / IP gateway,... using mod_perl / Apache / BIND / all the std GNU utils (cygwin), bash, wget,... you name it.

    NB: I am *not* saying IIS, or any of the other MS server products, are anything but embrace and extend in binary form, or anything other than hugely expensive pale imitations of far superior Free server products.

    Sooo much better than Linux, which *never* crashes, and *never* suffers security problems, huh? So how come NTBugtraq has had less traffic this year than Bugtraq gets in a week?

    Given the choice, I'll use Free software rather than Microsoft software because it's Free . Yes, it might be more flexible /secure/powerful/stable or whatever, but don't rely on that as a reason to get people to ditch MS. That's why you zealots have to contort yourself into the absurd idea that all corporate users of Microsoft software *must* be drooling morons, cos *everyone* knows Windows crashes|gets 0wned all the time, right? Try getting your information from personal experience (with a well configured NT machine, rather than a PoS win9x|ME home box.) Like anything else, it can be done well or badly. Freedom is the only reason to choose Free software. Anything else is delusion. IMHO :)
    "I'm not downloaded, I'm just loaded and down"

  • Jamie, you most certainly DO have a conflict of interest which leads you to write slanted material bashing MAPS without questioning what Peacefire's Bennett Haleston tells you to say. Haleston jumped into a puddle so he could cry "Look everybody! Big bad brother pushed me into this puddle!".

    Peacefire's host Media3 is the worst spam service host on the Internet (see: TOP 10 Spam Support ISPs []), the net's worst stealth spam outfits are right there on's server. Media3 is a spam support service that makes money supplying 'bullet-proof hosting' to stealth spam outfits and _refuse_ to stop doing so, that is why the server's IP space had to be placed on the RBL. It was placed on the RBL *two months* before Media3 moved Peacefire on it to place Peacefire (the "anti-blocking" site) in the line of fire.

    I can assure you that Media3's owner (who is an old friend of Bennett Haselton in case you weren't aware) knew in March 2000 that the class C would be placed on the RBL because *I* told him and I also cc'd him a copy of the RBL nomination. That's *6* months before Peacefire was moved onto the already-blocked server. (Bennett even told you he knew the server was blocked because once they moved onto it then then had to find a way to send email out through a different server because that one was blocked.)

    What you're trying to pass off as an "allegation" of Media3 moving Peacefire onto an already-RBL'd server is NOT an allegation but fact. It's also fact that Media3 took MAPS to court at the same time to get the server's IPs released from the RBL - and LOST - which made Media3's owner even more determined to get back at MAPS. Media3 used Peacefire as a pawn *with* Bennett's tacit help because Bennett saw a chance for press coverage for Peacefire. Each time Media3 loses a court case against MAPS a couple of days later Peacefire sends out a 'press release' deliberately misrepresenting the facts to suit Bennett's "I hate MAPS" agenda. An agenda of which you and Slashdot are an unwitting part thanks to the ease with which you write anything Bennett tells you to write without checking the facts.

    Steve Linford
    The Spamhaus Project []

  • "I'm going to play Duck Hunt now in celebration!"

    Duck Hunt nothing... Lethal Enforcer is way better, and that's not even a 3-D shooter. Anyway it's better to shoot criminals and terrorists than those poor helpless ducks!
  • "I call this a conflict of intrest."

    I support Peacefire, the EFF, the ACLU, and other online civil-liberties organizations. If you think this makes me unqualified to write about online civil-liberties issues that affect and are affected by these organizations, you need to rethink what "conflict of intrest" [sic] means.

    Re your (not very clear) allegation of Media3 moving Peacefire, I addressed this already [].

    Jamie McCarthy

  • by jamiemccarthy ( 4847 ) on Wednesday May 23, 2001 @05:17PM (#202336) Homepage Journal

    "While I might believe that they offer it as a service to some of their customers, I just can't see one of the world's top five IP carriers [Teleglobe] refusing to route any part of the Internet."

    Here's their part of the traceroute from the Slashdot submittor from Greece who reported being unable to access This is as reported to me on Friday, after was taken off the RBL:

    5 310 ms 311 ms 250 ms []
    6 311 ms 310 ms 310 ms [ 25]
    7 300 ms 311 ms 310 ms [ 8]

    He also reported that many of his friends in Greece were unable to access the site, writing: "Every person in business (I am web developer/designer) couldn't not see Macromedia server for the past 4 days. They 'see' internet from different ISPs. I am very certain." This meshes with your pointing out that Teleglobe often is the primary access provider for entire countries.

    Teleglobe is a licensed subscriber [] to the RBL, but as for whether they use it to block traffic other than mail, a quick Google search on "teleglobe MAPS RBL []" turns up good leads. See e.g. "JANET, Teleglobe and the RBL []," in which one of Teleglobe's clients -- itself a well-known internet provider -- explains to its own customers the situation which has been forced upon them:

    Does this affect things other than mail?

    Yes. No connections of any kind will work in either direction between JANET and a blackholed address -- not Web, FTP, telnet or anything else.

    On another page [], they hopefully claim "it is not likely that any valid use of JANET requires access to such networks." Well, maybe that page needs to be updated.

    You see why I think this is important?

    Jamie McCarthy

  • by jonbrewer ( 11894 ) on Wednesday May 23, 2001 @04:48PM (#202337) Homepage
    TeleGlobe happens to be the primary connection to the Internet for some COUNTRIES in this world.

    From their marketing propaganda [] (which is to be believed) "Teleglobe's Internet customer base represents 15 percent of the world's Internet routes."

    I can't believe it's true that TeleGlobe as a whole subscribes to the MAPS RBL as Jamie states above.

    While I might believe that they offer it as a service to some of their customers, I just can't see one of the world's top five IP carriers refusing to route any part of the Internet.
  • by Chuck Chunder ( 21021 ) on Wednesday May 23, 2001 @04:30PM (#202338) Homepage Journal
    You are most likely correct. AOL can argue that they have not violated the GPL because they never agreed to it in the first place (no signature, etc etc).

    However, by doing this they would be arguing that they have breached the copyright on the software by distributing it without a licence to do so.

    Fun eh!
  • by Alik ( 81811 ) on Wednesday May 23, 2001 @07:42PM (#202339)
    The other problem, of course, being that the real process of governing is just not fun. Sure, if you get up high enough, you get some power and maybe some bribes/kickbacks/perqs. However, realize that you are no longer permitted to express your own thoughts on anything, because the media will lynch you. Your entire day consists of sorting through arcane bits of legal code and mile-high stacks of budget figures, trying to figure out what it all says and what changes might actually work. Meanwhile, your door is being beaten down by thousands of special-interest groups, all of whom say that you must do as they say or the country will go to Hell *and* they'll run ads showing you kicking a small child in the face. Oh, and did we mention that even though you're not allowed to express your true opinion on anything, you've got to have a position on everything? Or the party whip, whose sole job is to keep you in line with The Platform and The Agenda by whatever means necessary? And all your college buds who own companies and law firms make about ten times as much as you?

    You want a game that'll drive people to murder, that'd be it.
  • by supabeast! ( 84658 ) on Wednesday May 23, 2001 @11:17PM (#202340)
    "John G. Rowland said Thursday that he will veto a bill barring children under 18 from playing 'point-and-shoot' video games in public places."

    Imagine what would happen if they passed a bill prohibitng kids from shooting real guns at human shaped targets at a public firing range. I cna guarantee you that it would go nowhere...
  • by Greyfox ( 87712 ) on Wednesday May 23, 2001 @04:33PM (#202341) Homepage Journal
    Of course if it had passed, they'll have started running out of things to point fingers at other than where the real blame lies, which is with the disinterested parents and the school system that doesn't do a damn thing to prevent children from behaving like animals. I expect that blaming Canada would be next, which ultimately would only result in the Canadian Royal Air Force bombing the Baldwin Residence.
  • by _Mustang ( 96904 ) on Wednesday May 23, 2001 @07:07PM (#202342)
    Right off that site, the best terms for shareware I ever heard!

    Registration BrickHouse is a shareware product. The cost is $25 per machine. I'm of the opinion that people will either pay shareware fees, or they won't. You may use BrickHouse without registering it until you feel that it is worth $25 to you. If you like BrickHouse, you should pay the shareware fee to help ensure future development of the product.
  • by tester13 ( 186772 ) on Wednesday May 23, 2001 @04:52PM (#202343) Homepage

    Not only did we speculate on the death of Mandrake. We also followed it to its next illogical conclusion, being that Linux on the desktop may be dead!

    Ouch!!! We really need to calm down in the future (myself included) and actually wait a few seconds, minutes, or days before we start making dire predictions about the future of anything. Here we did not even have correct information.

  • by dbirchall ( 191839 ) on Wednesday May 23, 2001 @08:50PM (#202344) Journal
    To the best of my knowledge (as someone who's read a lot that Bennett has had to say about this, and a lot that other people have had to say as well), the chronology was like this:

    1. Peacefire got hosted by Media3 in netblock A.
    2. Media3 netblock B hosted a bunch of spammers.
    3. MAPS received complaints about netblock B.
    4. Media3 *moved* Peacefire from A to B.
    5. MAPS blocked netblock B due to the spammers.
    Step 4 above is roughly akin to surrounding your biological-weapons plant with women and children so you can claim it was a school, hospital or residential neighborhood when it gets blown up.

    There are some things I do not know, namely:

    • Whether MAPS and Media3 were in communication before Peacefire was moved. (In other cases I'm aware of, MAPS has seemed to respond to spam complaints with almost glacial speed, so there may have been some bureaucratic back-and-forth in the weeks or months preceding the RBL listing.)
    • If so, whether Media3 made Peacefire aware that the netblock into which they were moved was likely to be RBLed.
    I find it hard to believe that Media3 wouldn't have known they were likely to be RBLed for hosting so many spammers in that block. From what I've heard over the years, an RBL nomination is unlikely to be accepted if the person submitting it hasn't already communicated with the target without success.

    If Media3 did know (which seems likely), and failed to tell Peacefire, Bennett has every right to be pissed - at Media3. If someone pushes you in front of a bus, is the bus company liable? No, the person who pushed you is. :)

    If Media3 did know and told Peacefire, and Peacefire willingly consented to be placed in a netblock that was likely to be RBL'ed, it becomes a manner of "why the heck would you do that? *slap slap slap*"

    Come to think of it, that's pretty much the reaction Bennett got on comp.dcom.telecom...


  • by DarkrhaveN ( 206379 ) on Wednesday May 23, 2001 @05:01PM (#202345)
    It's good to see our Governor standing up against, letting the United States government as a whole let parents off the hook from thier roles as parents in the first place.

    John Rowland ( A Man I've Met Before, And I Shook His Hand ) is taking the proper steps in doing the right thing, by pointing out the parents need to get up and take thier roles as parental guidance units for thier kids, also by doing this, its a huge message that says "hey get up and do your job, because I'm not going to do it for you"

    Start taking notes Mr. Bush.. learn something here.

  • by joestar ( 225875 ) on Wednesday May 23, 2001 @05:12PM (#202346) Homepage

    With Jacques Le Marois (CEO & Co-Founder of Mandrakesoft) on: 754212&mode=thread []

    With Gaël Duval (Creator of Linux-Mandrake & Co-Founder of Mandrakesoft) on: []

    Worth a read.

  • by melquiades ( 314628 ) on Wednesday May 23, 2001 @05:51PM (#202347) Homepage
    OK, I'll grant that Apple's page is no encyclopedia of security. But it sounds like you didn't even read through what's there. The security page has several concrete and useful bits of information, including:
    • a list of security patches [] and directions for patching;
    • general directions for disabling FTP, HTTP, Telnet, SSH, and Appleshare (nice and simple for the non-techies);
    • a security mailing list, with directions for verifying Apple's PGP signature; and
    • links to three other relevant security sites (CERT, FIRST, and FreeBSD security).

    It would be nice if they had links to security software such as Brickhouse [], and community security sites such as SecureMac []. But they page is not as useless as you make it out to be.
  • by increduloidx ( 409461 ) on Wednesday May 23, 2001 @04:52PM (#202348) Homepage
    From The Misanthropic Bitch's Mailing List...

    INDIANA - A compulsive gambler is suing Casino Aztar for allegedly failing to enforce a ban barring him from the floating casino. A lawsuit filed on behalf of David Williams of Evansville charges that casino officials mailed him a letter barring him from the boat, but did nothing to enforce the ban. The suit alleges that Aztar officials instead continued to "ply" Williams by mailing him promotional materials, and allowed him to board and to gamble on the boat's slot machines. Williams alleges that he has lost a total of about $175,000 dollars gambling on the Evansville riverboat. His suit alleges in part that, by using the mailings both to ban Williams and to continue to entice him to gamble, Aztar committed mail fraud, which amounts to racketeering under federal law. Aztar attorney Patrick Shoulders compares Williams' lawsuit to "an alcoholic suing a liquor store." Source: Associated Press
    Quaint, isn't it?

    The One,
    The Only,
    --The Kid
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 23, 2001 @06:38PM (#202349)
    This zealot algorithm is released under the GPL.

    1. Search slashdot for pro-Linux comments. Mod them up without regard to the merit of the story.
    2. Search slashdot for anti-Linux comments. Mod them down without regard to the merit of the story.
    3. Add nightly security patches to Linux and recompile kernel for the umpteen-millionth time.
    4. Go back to 1.

  • by strredwolf ( 532 ) on Wednesday May 23, 2001 @04:56PM (#202350) Homepage Journal
    I belive you are well versed with EFF, ACLU, et al that you are a very effective advocate of them; however, since Peacefire lists you as a *member*, I see an extreme bias.

    On the allegation:
    I'm at least glad to hear that you have attempted contact with Abuse.Net and MAPS. Unfortuantely, I'm dismayed that MAPS didn't talk to you. MAPS is very open on Usenet, and you should post there (Google now allows posting).

    There are about 241 spams from email and usenet [] involving Macromedia. I didn't attempt to filter if they came directly or were spamming Macromedia themselves. Aparently, MAPS was justified in listing with this proof.

    Bennett Haselton has also lied to you. He's still talking on Usenet ( Drop in some time!). He is being clued in by many folk as we speak, while continuing to spread disinformation. Talk with someone else from PeaceFire to confirm Bennet's allegations. We (tinw) just don't belive him anymore.

    The main questions (in my mind) are now: Has Peacefire contacted MAPS to get off the RBL? If so, Peacefire got swept into it by Media 3 w/o any notice that it was going to be in an RBL block, which Media 3 knew about. If not, then Peacefire knew that it was getting involved to smear MAPS. None the less, a ton of indivitual blacklists have just cut out Media 3.

    Keep probing! There's more to this story and we (tinw) sysadmins on NANAE are continuing to probe!

    WolfSkunks for a better Linux Kernel

  • by Oniros ( 53181 ) on Thursday May 24, 2001 @05:31AM (#202351) x.html

  • by Cardinal ( 311 ) on Wednesday May 23, 2001 @06:13PM (#202352)
    The kids obviously won't be able to get any! She said it herself!

    "We are assisting parents the same way we make it illegal to buy cigarettes, to buy guns," said Harp.

    Obviously the laws that make it illegal to buy cigarettes and guns are working famously, so a law to ban them from playing games will work great, too!

    This senator sounds like a mother who has raised her children while keeping her head planted firmly in the sand. No law, passed at any level of government, will ever be able to prevent kids going postal, any more than a law can prevent them from smoking or drinking while driving.
  • by Magus311X ( 5823 ) on Wednesday May 23, 2001 @04:10PM (#202353)
    Ugh. Gotta love the reactions like this one:

    "I would hope if he vetoes it, we don't have a tragedy like ... Columbine, because then he can take some responsibility," she said.

    Now that alone is pretty well... sad. That's like vetoing a bill that outlaws gambling and saying "I'm poor! I gambled all my money because I have a problem! You didn't prevent me from gambling so this is all your fault!"

    Oh, and let's not forget this:

    "I hope he reconsiders," said Harp, a mother of three children. "I don't think he understands the bill. It is not just a violence bill. These are games that train people to kill."

    I see. And by that token Flight SImulators make me a pilot, SimCity makes me a qualified mayor, and Transport Tycoon has made me a millionaire. Oh, and Black and White makes me GOD.

    You heard her. I am GOD. Now bow before me before my sheep poos on you and I fling you across the state!

  • by ( 184378 ) on Wednesday May 23, 2001 @04:57PM (#202354) Journal
    You know, we need a SimPolitics and then we can get rid of all our politicians (no need for them anymore, anyone who plays the game instantly becomes a politician).

    Although the game would probably be too complex to understand, and likely require you to maintain a minimum number of mistresses to continue playing.

    Impeach Him!

    I see great potential here... the game could even download scenarios off the 'net in real time. In fact, it could be the next insanely popular (I'm serious) MMORPG.

    "Backstab your friends, steal your enemy's thunder; build your own government."
  • by Quietti ( 257725 ) on Wednesday May 23, 2001 @04:22PM (#202355) Journal
    It's well known that the BSD platform on which OS X is based is historically chock full of security holes. Seriously, ditch that and go with Windows NT, a solid OS backed by the world's largest software company.

    Read what a MSCE had to say about Why Microsoft uses Solaris instead of NT [] and how most large corporations are fazing out NT in favor of BSD or Linux. While you're at it, try a search on "blue screen of the death" on Google, for a proof that NT is worthless garbage and that Windows 1901 is even worst.

Executive ability is deciding quickly and getting somebody else to do the work. -- John G. Pollard