Follow Slashdot stories on Twitter

 


Forgot your password?
Close
typodupeerror
×
Linux Business

Sony, Matsushita Back Linux For Consumer Goods 198

Posted by timothy from the they-will-play-ogg dept.
malx writes "Says the Financial Times: 'Matsushita and Sony have agreed to jointly develop the Linux operating system for digital consumer electronic products, in a highly unusual and cooperative deal between two of the fiercest rivals in the industry.' Interesting because Sony and Matsushita are bitter foes: this shows they're even more scared of Microsoft." update Sorry, it's a dupe.
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Sony, Matsushita Back Linux For Consumer Goods More

Sony, Matsushita Back Linux For Consumer Goods

Comments Filter:

  • For more information.. (Score:5, Funny)

    by vidnet ( 580068 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @03:16PM (#4917676) Homepage
    For more information, see here. [slashdot.org]

    • Re:For more information.. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by ajs ( 35943 ) <[ajs] [at] [ajs.com]> on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @03:24PM (#4917764) Homepage Journal
      Slashdot really needs an editor-in-cheif. It's not that they need someone to even out the stylistic content or even to fix the spelling (spalling, if you prefer), but constant streams of duplicate articles are just getting silly. Someone should at least know what's going up on the site.

      I think the problem with that is that Slashdot is essentially a congress-of-peers at the editor level, and they don't want to relegate everyone but one to "culling the crap" status while one of them coordinates and edits.

      I can sympathize, but is there any other way? Perhaps cull the crap to a "pre-post" list that we can comment on and point out duplicates and/or inaccuracies? That's been shot down before too.

      • Re:For more information.. (Score:5, Insightful)

        by _ph1ux_ ( 216706 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @03:28PM (#4917802)
        Sympathize my ass. The *least* they could do is just take a friggin look at the site and see that the dupe even appears on the front page - just a few stories below.

        Its not as if this is a dupe from a few days ago - and isnt visable without searching. This is a dupe within just a few hours.
        • What I was most surpirised to see is that the dupe wasn't posted by CmdrTaco. The other guys, with the exception of Hemos and Robilmo, seemed pretty pedantic about it. Well, pedantic in Slashdot terms, at least. Notice how other similar sits, like OSNews.com and theregister.co.uk never post dupes, even though the amount of news items is about the same. Not to say that The Register has tons of original material, so the people there actually do something. And OSNews has a lot of original material, too, but there much of it is contributed by community members (which is great!).
        • Get off your ass and type some code then...

          Quoted from the FAQ for all you lazy people. [*]


          Sometimes I see duplicate stories on Slashdot. What's up with that?

          If you see a duplicate, you can mail the story's author. If the story is still quiet, we may pull it down. However, once the comments are rolling in, we often leave the story up so that the discussion can continue.

          Some people have suggested that there might be a software solution to this problem. If you think you've got one, visit the Slashcode site and submit a diff. As long as it isn't a performance hit, I'd consider using it. (Be aware however that the trick of searching for duplicate URLs isn't as helpful as you might think, since the same story can appear in multiple locations.)

          Answered by: CmdrTaco
          Last Modified: 10/28/00

          [*] Also known as /. readers
          • How about a somewhat more simple solution: allow the deletion of stories by editors. They always seem to notice that it's a dupe *after* they post it... so allow them to delete it when they do notice! End of problem.
            • Ummm...did you even read the post you replied to? Or the FAQ on the topic? Which was quoted in the post you replied to? Apparently not. Here's the bit that's relevant to your comment:

              "If the story is still quiet, we may pull it down. However, once the comments are rolling in, we often leave the story up so that the discussion can continue."
              • Yes but when the discussion consists almost exclusively of (circa) 10 regurgitated ideas about how we could avoid dupe posts, I think that's a rather stupid policy. There's no 'lively debate' going on, and they could still keep the story active so the discussion could continue, and just not link to it from the front page.
          • Get off your ass and type some code then...

            Just because a technical solution is theoretically possible doesn't mean it's the right way to solve the problem.

            The correct solution is for the editors to actually give a shit about their own site. Duplicate stories are not only irritating, they are disheartening. Everytime I see one I picture Taco (or whoever posted it) sitting around drooling on himself.. Probably laughing at how he can sit around and fuck off and get payed for it. It really pisses me off. If I let myself get away with such shit-poor work I'd kill myself.

        • So, is anyone going to make a website with counters for the number of dupes each /. editor posts?

          It might be interesting to see the counters climb.
      • Why not have the scripts which allow the post in the first place to scan the last X number of articles? Like 100 or so. If the old post contains a link to the same place as the current post, it notifies the poster before allowing them to post (ie: both the preview and submit buttons do this). The poster could be allowed to override the computer for whatever reason - but at least the notice (and appropriate HTTP URL) would be available to the user.

        Also, it would be useful for posting follow-ups as well since the poster would not have to spend time searching for the original post. It would just be presented to them.

        I see two ways to set up such a database.

        1. Post -> URL

        and

        2. URL -> Post

        #2 would be better since then the URL is only used once. Since record IDs are only 4 bytes (SlashDot hasn't gone past 2 Billion messages yet has it?) this method takes up less space than #1 and provides a complete list of where the URL was used. #2 could actually be URL->Post#1,Post#2,Post#3,etc....

        Just a thought. :-)
      • Are the comments (to the different headlines) substansively different?
        If the comments are different, does it really matter if the linked story happens to be the same?
    • Slashdot already checks how long you've had the comment form loaded before letting you post. It also checks that you don't post comments too often by remembering when you posted last and enforcing a cooldown period.

      I think that for site editors, there should be a "clue-in" period, of about 10 minutes, starting when they first load the front page, during which they would not be allowed into the submission queue, giving them a chance to read the day's stories so far.

      Ideally, there would also be some javascript onBlur handler that maked the timer stop when the page is not in the forground.

    • Slashdot posts about a dozen articles a day. If you factored in 5 minutes to verify the link, skim the article, and check for dupes it would total 60 MINUTES A DAY of work!

      Given the value of their stock options [yahoo.com], don't you think they've got better things to do?
      • Know why they call him Commander Taco? Because that's all they can afford to pay him...3 plates of tacos daily. Taco Bell tacos, no less.

        Man, I had no idea VA's stock was so low. If that was an EKG they be running for the paddles.
  • Why can't ye slashdot editors scroll down the homepage like the rest of us and see that this is a duplicate from just HOURS ago?
    • Because they are using the latest and greatest display technology... ... Yes... they are using the brand new CGA Color Monitor from ColorScreenCo... This new monitor is capable of a resolution of 320x200 pixels in 256 colors!
      • You mean 4 colors. Yeah there was dithering that made stuff kinda look like it was a different color. That was a hack.

        The monitor itself could probably do whatever a color TV can do, its the adapter that only has 4 colors.
      • Looks like I boosted the color spec... should have written 4 colors!
      • That would be 320x200 with 256 colors is/was mcga. That sure brings back memories. As other posters mentioned cga was 4 awefull colors. White, black, purple and cyan if memory serves me right.
        • There were at least two palettes. You could also have white, black, brown/red, and green if you wanted. There might have been as many as four palettes, but I'm not clear.

  • fp (Score:2, Interesting)

    by inteller ( 599544 )
    No what this shows is that Sony is using Linux as a poster child in an anti-Microsoft marketing campaign. They could give a shit about Linux, they just want to fuel the fire.
    • > No what this shows is that Sony is using Linux as a poster child in an anti-Microsoft marketing campaign. They could give a shit about Linux, they just want to fuel the fire.

      While this might be indeed be the case, I'm sure the techies at Sony (who BTW I have much respect for) are very happy with the development.

      But the real catch comes in a couple of years when they find Linux to be doing such a good job they'll never consider anything else. Even if they initially truely set out for 'Anything but Microsoft'.

      You know why Linux is better than drugs?

      With drugs, only the first round is free.

    • I think this quote from the Devil's Dictionary describes this alliance best.

      ALLIANCE, n.
      In international politics, the union of two thieves who have their hands so deeply inserted in each other's pockets that they cannot separately plunder a third.

  • What is this, fark? (Score:4, Funny)

    by jerryasher ( 151512 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @03:17PM (#4917691)
    Instead of a repeated slashdot story, how about some boobies?
    • Hrm.. boobies... my only weakness. Its like that green stuff.. ya know, the Kryptonite! Or as the Blood hound gang says "HOOORAY FOR BOOOOBIES!"
  • Here [slashdot.org]

  • It's Slashdot! (Score:5, Funny)

    by RealBeanDip ( 26604 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @03:20PM (#4917712)
    News that matters so much, we post it twice, sometimes three times.
  • I can't wait to brush my teeth with the first linux powered toothbrush....

  • Dupe Dupe (Score:4, Funny)

    by anewsome ( 58 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @03:20PM (#4917719)
    I I think think this this is is a a dupe dupe.

  • Developing Linux? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by GeckoFood ( 585211 ) <geckofood@@@gmail...com> on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @03:21PM (#4917729) Journal
    So, these two electronics behemoths will be building a Linux platform for consumer electronics. This will be another embedded version of Linux then. How will this be different from, say, BlueCat? BlueCat is an embedded Linux development platform and has the embedded kernel, plus the cross compiler and all the goodies you need. It targets multiple processors, too. Will there be any advantage to this new system over existing products?
  • and we will soon be seeing Linux in consumer electronics.

  • Wow (Score:4, Funny)

    by tigress ( 48157 ) <rot13.fcnzgenc03@8in.net> on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @03:23PM (#4917747)
    While the Sony's have lived in the modern world for awhile, and have gotten it, as well as being on both sides of it, Matsuhita electric is perhaps the most traditional and conservitive of Japanese companies. I have known these people (Matsushita) for much of my life, from some of their board members down. This is an organization so steeped in it's own traditions and dogma (yes, they really do have a "250 year" business plan, and never make fun of the founders light bulb socket :), with engineering departments so conservitivily organized, that for them to support open development of GPL software is really much like the Pope encouraging contraction!

    (Score:5, Interesting) [slashdot.org]

    O =)
  • You guys have to be planning all of these dupes, right? Big joke, big ha-ha?

  • feature request: user moderated articles (Score:4, Interesting)

    by japer ( 87553 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @03:24PM (#4917763) Homepage
    There should be a way to moderate articles themselves (like posters comments) that way, if
    an article was modded to -10000 dupe, it wouldn't show up on my front page - if I'm logged in of course.

  • I'm sorry... (Score:3, Funny)

    by dr_dank ( 472072 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @03:25PM (#4917772) Homepage Journal
    could you please repeat that? [slashdot.org]
  • Interesting because Sony and Matsushita are bitter foes: this shows they're even more scared of Microsoft.

    I don't see how anything said in the article shows they are "scared of Microsoft". Not only that but the article goes on to mention Sony will still be using Windows on the Vaio. If they were truly "afraid" of Microsoft they would dump Windows.

    Maybe it's just me but the price and flexability of Linux made them choose it over Microsoft's products. In this case tt is a smart business decision both from a financial and technical standpoint.

    Perhaps I'm just an optimist.
  • Probably the shortest Story Dupe Distance: 7 stories
  • Linux for Home Electronics
    Posted by michael on Wednesday December 18, @08:26AM

    Hmmmm... Where have I seen this before?
    Score 0, Redundant.

  • Solutions to dupe problem? (Score:5, Informative)

    by Greedo ( 304385 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @03:29PM (#4917806) Homepage Journal
    I think we all agree that the duped article problem is only getting worse. Funny, but i don't remember see any articles duped in 2001 or earlier. Did something change at OSDN that might explain this?

    Anyway ... a simple check of any URLs posted in a new article against URLs in the previous month's articles would go along way to eliminating dupes. However, it wouldn't have caught this one, since the original article linked to a Sony press release, and this one links to a news site reporting the release.

    So what other ways (besides forcing a manual check) can we build into the slash code to help stop this in the future, before an article is posted? A comparison of similar words? Or do we add something for after-the-fact moderation: article meta-moderators who can delete an article if it's found to be a dupe?
    • Comment removed based on user account deletion
      • How about a Bayesian filter? Everything that gets posted can be marked as "SPAM" by the user, and put into the SPAM filter's database. Then, when you get a new story, you just run it through the filter to see if it marks it as SPAM. If it does, you look a little closer to see if it's a dupe.

        You'd have to change the filter database to only keep the last N days worth of postings but that's no big deal.
    • How about amazing glance-at-own-site technology? Maybe a read-over-what-you've-just-written-you-dummy perl script?

      Maybe we're not thinking on the right level. Remember that early episode of the Simpsons where they all went to Dr. Monroe and he let them give each other (too many) electric shocks? Something like that.

    • Re:Solutions to dupe problem? (Score:4, Funny)

      by BurritoWarrior ( 90481 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @03:38PM (#4917891)
      So what other ways (besides forcing a manual check) can we build into the slash code to help stop this in the future, before an article is posted?

      Any editor posting a dupe will:
      1. Have hot grits poured down his pants
      2. Be forced to use goatse as his desktop wallpaper
      3. Be sent someplace cold IN SOVIET RUSSIA.
      4. Problem solved
      5. ...???...
      6. Profit!!!

    • How'a'bout this: Make a dupe icon... then all duplicate stories get posted under that. Then for everyone who doesn't want dupes they can just filter those out.

    • Should'nt the editors be also Slashdot's readers? If this was the case, they would'nt post duplicates for at least a week interval.

      I remember myself seeing duplicates of stories over a year apart. These are normal, but within a week...

      I recommend an improvement to the slashcode: an editor cannot post new articles until he has read every articles for the past week. I am sure that the slashcode monitors what readers read, right?

      I don't think that a journalist with basic professionalism value would have a problem with that. It is normal to perform some research before publishing.

      • Do you have any idea how many articles that really is? I don't know about you, but the default anybody page is puny compared to what loads when I view slashdot, I get a whole slew of articles in various categories I have selected in my preferences (as well as a goatseload of boxes full of yet more along the side of my screen).

    • Re:Solutions to dupe problem? (Score:5, Informative)

      by miltimj ( 605927 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @04:09PM (#4918130)
      Is it that difficult to read the FAQ [slashdot.org]?

      For your convenience:

      Sometimes I see duplicate stories on Slashdot. What's up with that?

      These are just mistakes on the part of the staff. They happen. We have posted over ten thousand stories in our history. The occasional duplicate is inevitable.

      If you see a duplicate, you can mail the story's author. If the story is still quiet, we may pull it down. However, once the comments are rolling in, we often leave the story up so that the discussion can continue.

      Some people have suggested that there might be a software solution to this problem. If you think you've got one, visit the Slashcode site [slashcode.com] and submit a diff. As long as it isn't a performance hit, I'd consider using it. (Be aware however that the trick of searching for duplicate URLs isn't as helpful as you might think, since the same story can appear in multiple locations.)

      Answered by: CmdrTaco [mailto]
      Last Modified: 10/28/00

      Why don't people quit complaining about duplicate articles and actually do something to solve it? (see above)


      • This is a duplicate of the above post [slashdot.org].

        Golly, it must be hard to keep up with everything posted on this site.

  • Looks like they're not trying to win over the Linux zealot with their PR departments. From the article:

    "We are not forming an alliance to compete against Microsoft," said a Matsushita representative.

    No matter what the Matsushita rep says, this *is* meant to distance themselves from Microsoft and save cash.
    It's nice to see them helping out embedded Linux development. Of course, in the process, they are giving Linux a powerful ally in a new arena, but they want this to appear as if creating competition in Microsoft's market is an unintended consequence.

  • Sony (Score:2, Funny)

    by Skraut ( 545247 )
    Because I don't have time to read the story twice: Is this story about the Good Sony (The Linux on PS2 Sony) or the Bad Sony (one of the cornerstones of the RIAA)
    • You mean is it a story about the Sony that's Helping Us, or about the Sony that's Trying to Kill Us?

  • Duplications and Introductions (Score:5, Funny)

    by smackdotcom ( 136408 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @03:30PM (#4917827)

    Timothy, Michael.

    Michael, Timothy.

    I just thought that you gentlemen might want to be introduced to one another, since you seem to share tastes in reading material.

    I mean, for pity's sake, as of my writing this, it's still on the front page [slashdot.org].
  • story dupes YOU!
  • But you can't get a news story going on here that doesn't come from Wired, News.com, or the NYT!

    Usurper_ii

    Hoping to do what MTV did for music -- man I hope NOT -- Blackbelt [blackbelt.tv]
    TV hopes to launch a 24-hour martial arts channel [martialway.com]. Offering nearly 15,000 hours of popular martial-arts films, fights to be hosted by gorgeous female fight jocks, and rumors [216.239.51.100] of having anime in their line-up ...this sounds like if you have an ass, this channel will kick it. Maybe we could put Slashdot to good use here and let everyone know to be sure and request [blackbelt.tv] this channel from their local cable company, DirecTV, and Dish network!

  • ... it's called 'Slashdot'. You should read it sometime.

  • Slashdot Poll - Top Slashdot Beefs (Score:3, Funny)

    by Mothra the III ( 631161 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @03:36PM (#4917876)
    Dupes
    Slashdot gets slashdotted
    Bitching about Karma Whores
    Dupes
    Beowulf clusters, first post and Soviet Russia
    Cowboy Neal gets duped
  • Antivirus companies have named Klez as the most prolific virus of 2002.

    Story at NewsFactor [newsfactor.com]

  • HIghly cooperative effort (Score:5, Funny)

    by zurab ( 188064 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @03:40PM (#4917912)
    To jumpstart their highly cooperative effort, and in an attempt to appease to many geeks, both Sony and Matsushita submitted news stories to Slashdot.org, a geek terrorist hangout.

    After both stories made the front page of the outlaw website, Sony and Matsushita expressed doubts about the level of cooperation.

    "If we can't get this right, how are we going to resolve more complex issues?" said Matsushita representative.

    Sony representative made a similar point, adding that the two companies will go back to being fierce rivals again.
  • Here are the top responses from the first time this was posted, to save you from having to go check...

    While the Sony's have lived in the modern world for awhile, and have gotten it, as well as being on both sides of it, Matsuhita electric is perhaps the most traditional and conservitive of Japanese companies. I have known these people (Matsushita) for much of my life, from some of their board members down. This is an organization so steeped in it's own traditions and dogma (yes, they really do have a "250 year" business plan, and never make fun of the founders light bulb socket :), with engineering departments so conservitivily organized, that for them to support open development of GPL software is really much like the Pope encouraging contraction!

    It makes good business sense to use GPL-ed software when you want to devise a new product. 1. Low cost or no cost. 2. If you give geeks a chance to play with it, they can start to tell regular people how it works, why they should get it, etc. 3. Since most "regular" people don't care or don't want to know why it works the way it does, if the people who care why it works (geeks), show others that it just works, others will be inclined to buy that product. The moral: Most people will buy something if it simply works. Sony and Panasonic are letting us make sure it works before they mass- release.

    I'm already cringing at what I *know* is going to happen. They're going to release some stuff - exactly what they're obligated to - under the GPL. But other stuff - say DRM - will certainly NOT be under the GPL. Then there's going to be such a hoopla and whining in forums such as this one even though these companies have done exactly what they're obligated to. "They should give back to the community", etc, ad nauseum, and some people will be wondering why, if the open/free software implies some sort of larger obligation to a community, why these weren't written into the licenses.

    I got so carried away with my own rhetoric that I neglected to tie it in to home electronics so here goes: Thirty years ago anyone who understood electronics theory and vacuum tubes could fix any home electronic device. Simply understanding how electronic circuits worked meant that a tech could move from one device to another. And manufacturers didn't have to design a new theory for each device, they just wired up the vacuum tubes in new ways which were still understandable. All a tech had to do was look at the schematic diagram, apply a few standard tools (oscilloscope, VTVM, signal injector, etc.) and he (or she) could make it work. So if Sony uses Linux in its latest widget and you understand Linux, you'll understand how your widget works and how to get the most out of your widget. Plus, since Sony didn't have to design a brand new widget-operating-system, you will either be able to buy it cheaper than the Samsung widget or it will do more... or both. And if your widget breaks you won't have to buy a new one, you can just flash the bios and make it just like new. So putting widely known operating systems into devices saves money for both the manufacturer and the consumer. This makes us all happier and a few of us wealthier. If you learn Linux, and Linux is the OS they put in all these devices, you have a better chance of joining that few. :)

    I don't. I care about whether it is open. Do it use free, open standards, protocols, etc.? That's what is important. What I'm talking about is http://sincerechoice.org/ [sincerechoice.org].

  • Pref (Score:2)

    by sporty ( 27564 )
    They should create a pref to put all dupes in just so I can turn it off.

  • Our story was posted on the /. in the alternate universe as well as our own. The rift is widening. We should be able to invade soon.

  • Question (Score:5, Funny)

    by tmark ( 230091 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @03:45PM (#4917945)
    Exactly how much did VA Linux pay for you guys ?
  • Similar article located here [slashdot.org].
  • ..Slashdot should post the news that Google has opened the specs to their APIs!
  • follow [slashdot.org] my .sig...
  • How about we start keeping track of how many dupes each editor posts...this one counts for Timothy. Senor Taco gets a tally for the AOL post yesterday.

    Or, how about a new topic: "Duplicate Stories". This way, if we enjoy dupes, we can read them. Otherwise, we can exclude the Dupe topic.

    Oh, wait, what if we get dupes in the "Duplicate Stories" category?

  • I'm looking forward to these upcoming stories:

    Linux Backed by Sony, Matsushita For Consumer Goods
    For Consumer Goods Sony, Matsushita Back Linux
    For Consumer Goods Linux is Backed by Sony, Matsushita
    Back Linux For Consumer Goods? Sony and Matsushita!
    Sony, Matsushita Back Linux For Consumer Goods and Great Glory

  • I'll believe it when the gadgets are in my hands. Could it be that these announcements are just used as bargaining chips during the regular meetings with the friendly software licensing department at Microsoft? This smells too much like the Home Depot fiasco reported in slashback [slashdot.org] yesterday.
  • C'mon the first penguin was not holding a phone and a briefcase. So it's not quite a dupe, right???
  • While the Sony's have lived in the modern world for awhile, and have gotten it, as well as being on both sides of it, Matsuhita electric is perhaps the most traditional and conservitive of Japanese companies. I have known these people (Matsushita) for much of my life, from some of their board members down. This is an organization so steeped in it's own traditions and dogma (yes, they really do have a "250 year" business plan, and never make fun of the founders light bulb socket :), with engineering departments so conservitivily organized, that for them to support open development of GPL software is really much like the Pope encouraging contraception!
  • I took a Matsushita like you wouldnt believe yesterday. I had to give a courtesy flush.
  • You get karma from slashdot everything a story you submitted gets posted.

    To build your karma quickly, just submit, under your account, every story that get posted to slashdot. At the going rate of double-posts, the law of averages predicts that your karma will build quickly.

    The previous post of this article was only seven hours ago!
  • "Interesting because Sony and Matsushita are bitter foes: this shows they're even more scared of Microsoft"

    Um no, this does not 'show they're even more scared of Microsoft'. Sony has always been the type of company to try to control every little aspect of any product they make. In a case like this, they can control the OS.

    Sony doesn't like sharing their pie. It has nothing to do with 'fear of Microsoft'.
  • After all, in Soviet Russia, you don't read duplicate articles, articles duplicate you!
  • I guess I wouldn't mind dupes so much except, besides the redundancy, for every dupe that gets posted there's probably about 20 valid and informative stories that get rejected so instead of something that is news you get more cruft.

    It wouldn't be that bad if it was a slow news day but I don't think at /. any day is a slow news day as far as submissions go. It'll be nice if someday a solution for this pops up.
  • It is said in the FAQ that you guys might include a duplicate checker *IF* it didn't have a performance hit. Well, I would believe that this whole comment section for this article is just that. A performance hit. SOMEONE FIX THE DUPLICATES! It couldn't be worse than a fix. And seeing... not one, but TWO!!!!! articles on the front page. --agenthh

  • My big question ... (Score:3)

    by The AtomicPunk ( 450829 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @07:35PM (#4919613)
    Does OSDN actually PAY these "editor" guys ??

Slashdot Top Deals

Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes. -- Henry David Thoreau

Close