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Comment Re:Or hear me out (Score 1) 115

...such as...? Other than athletics those are pretty much the main amenities offered at most places.

You brought up amenities

Yes, and health care IS part of the problem. Health insurance costs make up a huge portion of personnel costs (20% or more). Offload that to a single-payer, federal system, and suddenly college can be much cheaper.

I agree, that's not a college specific issue though, it effects every aspect of our economy and college costs have way way way outpaced inflation over other sectors the last 50 years. Something else is happening. I was mainly using it as a parallel in that they both suffer from the same fundamental economic problem (how can you have market forces for something people *have* to have. You can't, it requires intervention)

To be fair, people in those countries are also healthier than people in the U.S.; so we also have a health problem in addition to a health care cost problem

Agree, these are all inter-related though, but again, not college specific. This increases drag on the entire economy.

That's not going to happen, at least not at the federal level.

Oh yeah, well not now obviously. But like healthcare it will probably have to happen eventually, there's nowhere else to go. We have to eventually accept these things. Right now, again like healthcare, we already subsidize it to the tune of billions if not trillions. We just do it in an entirely ass-backward way because we've been infected with Chicago-school economics ghouls for 50 years and we do economically illiterate things like private health-insurance and 6-figure unsecured loans for 18 year olds.

Comment Re:Environmentalists demand we only subsistence fa (Score 1) 103

Crossed wires maybe, it read like "i dont think these things are problems at all".

See I think we have to operate with a little bit of courtesy to at least hear them out and not someones caricature of their positions. I mean lets even look through your links for these unstated meanings;

The first, with cattles, the only change called for is "It asked for the removal of livestock from public lands that are Herd Management Areas (HMAs). " I don't think that's objectionable.

The article about steel is about those very technologies to reduce impact and the government investment into them; I would say exactly what we should be doing!

The article about mining was two groups, first nations who objected to rules about their land and environmental about species protection. Ok, maybe a bit too nosy. But oh wait, it didn't mean jack shit in the end because the bill in Canada passed anyway.

The only prescription the car article makes is more autonomous vehicles and better urban planning. Nothing at all objectionable to me. It may not feel nice as a car owner to read all the ways the culture harms us but that doesn't make it not true.

So where's the green washing rent seeking that requires the harshest possible outlook?

Reputation destruction only works if your target cares what others think about them.

Oh I can't expect you to care, I wouldn't if it were me, this is just the internet so reputation is both meaningless and also all that matters here.

From where I stand I have a bunch of environmentalists who acknowledge the problems but have what I feel might sometimes have overly onerous solutions but opposite them are folks who won't even say the problems exist and promote things that would make it worse. I can work with one of these.

Comment Re:Or hear me out (Score 1) 115

because much of the revenue from students now comes in areas (such as housing and dining)

This is a fundamental problem with the business model then.

If I could answer this with a simple answer, I wouldn't be poking around on Slashdot, I'd be selling consulting services to all colleges and universities that also want to answer this question.

So it's somewhat pointless if neither of us can be specific. Are you saying there are no amenities to be cut?

Some of those amenities are 'must haves,' and for many students in the middle of the market for higher education a few thousand dollars a year more in cost is worth it to have a modern place to live, something to do outside of class (like a rec center), and buildings that are not falling down; not to mention excellent food, access to counseling and advising.

If we are calling those "amenities" then we have a definition problem. Put all those things together and you have "a campus". Talking about things besides those.

Yes, the US spends more than many other countries on a degree, but our cost of living is also much higher than many other countries and the BENEFITS of a degree (even in $$ earnings) is higher than in many other countries, too.

Did you look at the list though? We are more expensive by a long shot than similarly developed nations. Same problem with healthcare, nations with similar GDP/capita and we spend far and and away more per-capita. So something is fundamentally broken in our higher education system. My opinion it's the same thing, we expect it to operate like a market but refuse to acknowledge how we've created a wildly distorted market.

To be fair I did forget the key aspect of my plan: community colleges at that point are subsidized education, IE, government supported and basically we would do away with most of the federal loan programs.

I don't have a perfect plan either but we can't have a discussion about the value proposition of college in the US without discussing the costs because the costs are out of control.

Again, just like health care, if most Americans could keep everything about the healthcare in America but the cost per-capita was $7k like Finland, Australia, France, Canada, etc instead of close to $15k then we are having a much much different discussion. Gotta solve that first, it's pretty much the primary issue.

Comment Re:Environmentalists demand we only subsistence fa (Score 1) 103

You realize why this is frustrating right, because earlier you claimed "I do not, because most of such claims presuppose that the environment is static and pristine." in regards to those claims, now everything is much more nuanced...

But we can't give that nuance to environmental groups or their issues of course, we have to paint those with a big broad brush and your strawman of them makes you seem like a run-of-the-mill science denier. Again, quite bad faith to just claim they "want to get rid of all cattle, steel and cars" to paraphrase up your earlier point.

Comment Re:Or hear me out (Score 1) 115

Some from all of those but a lot comes from #2 where admin costs have outpaced teaching costs in both total expenditure and rate of increase.

We can say amenities will keep students away but you'd have to show me what we're cutting and is that worth the high tuition (which also keep students away) and the value proposition (also keeps students away)

https://www.usnews.com/educati...

Also to say it's incredulous to say the US can reduce the cost of school would imply that the costs are the same in the rest of the world but much like healthcare the USA is far out in front there, something is wrong with our system here:

https://educationdata.org/aver...
https://www.forbes.com/sites/p...

I have always favored a plan that gives more options for community colleges to give bachelors and also expansion of trade schools (and treating them the same)

Much like health care it's a distorted market with no controlling force on price, particularly as it's gone from optional to required in society. Much like the rest of the world the US chooses to have the state be hands off, leave it to "the market" and then wonder why prices explode. It's a very "America-coded" problem.

Comment How about re-envisioning college entirely? (Score 1) 115

As I suggested in 2008 in "Post-Scarcity Princeton":
https://pdfernhout.net/reading...
"Wikipedia. GNU/Linux. WordNet. Google. These things were not on the visible horizon to most of us even as little as twenty years ago. Now they have remade huge aspects of how we live. Are these free-to-the-user informational products and services all there is to be on the internet or are they the tip of a metaphorical iceberg of free stuff and free services that is heading our way? Or even, via projects like the RepRap 3D printer under development, are free physical objects someday heading into our homes? If a "post-scarcity" iceberg is coming, are our older scarcity-oriented social institutions prepared to survive it? Or like the Titanic, will these social institutions sink once the full force of the iceberg contacts them? And will they start taking on water even if just dinged by little chunks of sea ice like the cheap $100 laptops that are ahead of the main iceberg? Or, generalizing on Mayeroff's theme, will people have the courage to discover and create new meanings for old institutions they care about as a continuing process?"

AI is just one more aspect of that trend of post-scarcity technological change, as (AI-based) one-on-one tutoring is now cheap (or effectively free if you are paying for AI access for other reasons).

Comment Thanks for the Alfie Kohn link on alternative ed (Score 1) 48

Indeed, educational videos on-demand to reflect current interests and needs via YouTube or elsewhere are another example of how compulsory schooling is increasingly obsolete.

Thanks for the Alfie Kohn link. He is an amazing insightful compassionate writer whose words have shaped some of my beliefs. John Taylor Gatto, John Holt, Pat Farenga, and Grace Llewelyn are some other writers who have shaped my beliefs on education -- as are stories from sci-fi writers like James P. Hogan (e.g. "Voyage from Yesteryear"), R.A. Lafferty ("Primary Education of the Camiroi"), and Ursula K. Le Guin ("Always Coming Home", "A Wizard of Earthsea") and others.

Almost everything has pros and cons, and it is true that free schools or progressive schools have some benefits. Sadly, as I wrote here circa 2009:
https://pdfernhout.net/towards...
        "See, that is the false choice -- suggesting you either confine a child to [school as] prison or they will commit their first violent crime and have to be imprisoned [as a truant]. That is a very dim view of human nature, neighborhoods and families. Yet, it is a self justifying view, in part destroying the very neighborhood fabric it claims to be defending. So, we are left with streets that are safe because there are no people on them. We have successfully destroyed the village in order to save it, using compulsory schooling instead of napalm."

One reason given for sending a child to compulsory school is so they will be around kids their own age -- ignoring that the only reason there are not kids their own age around during the weekday is precisely because of compulsory school (and even on weekends there is homework and then making up for missed family time during the week due to schooling which tend to keep kids indoors).

As a former high school debater, I especially like this point by Aife Kohn on the dark side of debate training from the page you linked to:
https://www.alfiekohn.org/arti...
        "Kohn: I grew up in Miami Beach, Florida, a very odd place, where the median age was deceased. I went to a large public high school, which was an intellectual wasteland. I didn't do sports. I had elements of competitiveness to be sure - in punning, for example. But in high school I was a nationally ranked debater. And although I was winning and liking it, it took me years to unlearn the poisonous messages I was taught: that any argument can be successfully defended if you're clever enough. And that winning is what counts most. I still describe myself today as a recovering debater. Sports carries with it its own set of problems, but competition is not limited to that. So when people say we need academic awards, debates, science competitions, and national spelling bees, what I hear them saying is, "Well, we destroy the athletes by turning their lives into an attempt to defeat everyone in sight - why shouldn't we do that to everyone else, too?""

And from the end:
        "Thuermer: If you had to reinvent yourself tomorrow, Alfie, what would you do?
        Kohn: I think if my career takes a turn in the next ten years, it's likely that I'll be thinking about raising kids and helping parents rethink the tendency to treat kids like pets. People have come up with cleverer ways of getting compliance - getting the kids to do what the parents want - as opposed to helping kids become responsible, caring, reflective people who can make decisions, who are socially skilled. Now that I'm a parent, this is increasingly an issue for me. A lot of it just deals with the fundamental lack of respect for children in this culture."

I quoted Alfie Kohn here (in 2008) from his "No Contest: The Case Against Competition" book in "Post-Scarcity Princeton" critiquing Princeton University and suggesting how that institution could improve:
https://pdfernhout.net/reading...
        "[Alfie Kohn's words:] If competitiveness is inherently compensatory, if it is an effort to prove oneself and stave off feelings of worthlessness, it follows that the healthier the individual (in the sense of having a more solid, unconditional sense of self-esteem), the less need there is to compete. The implication, we might say, is that the real alternative to being number one is not being number two but being psychologically free enough to dispense with rankings altogether. Interestingly, two sports psychologists have found a number of excellent athletes with "immense character strengths who don't make it in sports. They seem to be so well put together emotionally that there is no neurotic tie to sport." Since recreation almost always involves competition in our culture, those who are healthy enough not to need to compete may simply end up turning down those activities. ... Each culture provides its own mechanisms for dealing with self-doubt. ... Low self-esteem, then, is a necessary but not sufficient cause of competition. The ingredients include an aching need to prove oneself and the approved mechanism for doing so at other people's expense. ... I do not want to shy away from the incendiary implications of all of this. To suggest in effect that many of our heroes (entrepreneurs and athletes, movie stars and politicians) may be motivated by low self-esteem, to argue that our "state religion" is a sign of psychological ill-health -- this will not sit well with many people.(Page 103)"

Comment Re:Environmentalists demand we only subsistence fa (Score 1) 103

Oh, so you do believe the problems they are describing are real and don't actually have an issue with their prescriptions, just in their presentation?

So the cattle and steel industries do have deleterious environmental effects. Car culture does have harmful effects on the environment and society. Anthropomorphic climate change is a real phenomenon.

If your argument is "we need environmental groups to have better marketing" then sure, I can agree with that.

Comment Re:Environmentalists demand we only subsistence fa (Score 1) 103

The presentation of being opposed to the prescriptions of all these environmental groups, you make a bunch of claims about their positions but it's performative because you don't believe the problems they are trying to solve for even exist in the first place.

It's pointless for anyone to defend or argue about those positions because you can just turn around and go "oh you think the industry can be reformed to be less environmentally taxing? Well I don't even believe climate change is a real thing". Just lead with that next time.

Comment Re:Was it a Russian drone? (Score 1) 142

Yeah well it's a bit strange to me to have folks bending over backwards for Russia just to turn around and say "Well sure they're evil here" and yes, this equivocation of both nations positions is how I would view that.

Also this black and white claim is as much a presuppositional projection as what I did yet. Nothing about my position says that, in fact I can make a purely selfish defense of the same positions. That assisting Ukraine is purely in the geopolitical interests of America, that America has a long history of picking sides in conflicts, that Ukraine can be the moral actor here and still do immoral actions.

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