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Munich, The Censors' Convention

Posted by michael on Mon Sep 13, 1999 03:31 AM
from the censorship-is-freedom dept.
As promised last Friday, here's more on the Munich conference. Pay attention or wait to be forced to label your internet content. It's your choice.

A number of articles have appeared in the online press about Munich. Half of them are just rehashes of press releases - nothing very useful there. Some of them are fairly in-depth (we think CNET and the NY Times had the best coverage), but none of them really give you the big picture. We're going to try to. Let us know how we do.

The first thing that the press is missing is that there are (well, were) two meetings in Munich, not one. The first is the one you heard about: a meeting called by the Bertelsmann Foundation, part of the huge Bertelsmann publishing empire, which sponsored the Internet Content Summit. They're getting together to have a little feel-good session about "self-regulation" of internet content. By self-regulation they don't mean that end-users regulate their own behavior; they mean that ISPs regulate users instead of government doing so directly. Users will still be regulated, of course. And the regulation will be driven by what the national government wants. It's just that government will lay their heavy hands upon the ISPs, and the ISPs will act as the enforcers rather than law enforcement. Think of it as a distributed system - government assumes the role of a second-line rather than first-line manager. At a previous internet content summit, this type of regulation was described as "soft law" versus "hard law", and we think that's a good way to think about it. They are not talking about voluntary, individual actions of corporations - they are talking about imposing laws and restraints on the citizenry through another means. Self-regulation = soft law, but law nonetheless.

The first meeting is interesting for a number of reasons, but not terribly ominous - the people meeting were not previously working together, and all that will come out of it is thoughts and ideas. The second meeting is rather more dangerous.

The second meeting, scheduled in conjunction with the first, was of the principals of INCORE, Internet Content Rating for Europe. This group consists of a number of European corporations and protect-the-children groups and their sole goal is to establish a single rating system for use across Europe (they're also coordinating with Australia). Of course, the members of this group overlap significantly with the first - for example, Jens Waltermann, director of the Bertelsmann Foundation and sponsor of the first meeting, is also one of the prime movers in INCORE - which ought to tell you why the Bertelsmann conference is so slanted towards ratings systems as the sole means of protecting the children.

But why is this going forward? As at least one slashdot poster pointed out in the discussions of last week's article, rating systems have been discussed before, and haven't come to anything yet.

What happened is the government (the European Commission, in this case) decided to get serious. They buckled down, and at the end of 1998, allocated funds to be spent on the development of a global rating system. About $11 million is allocated to be spent on developing this system, so the corporate participants can be reasonably assured of being reimbursed for all their plane fares and hotel costs. (Question: if it's so voluntary, how come the government is paying people to develop it?)

The European Commission's plan runs from January 1999 to December 2002, four years. 1999 is scheduled for development and meetings. 2000 is scheduled for rollout and beta testing. 2001 and 2002 are allocated for the encouragement process and tweaking - making sure everyone is toeing the line. There's plenty of time allocated because it's important to make sure that the resulting rating system aligns with national laws - for instance, since Germany outlaws hate speech, one of the rating categories will involve hate speech, and Germany will outlaw the transmission of any content rated in this category into the country. Laws can be "hung" off the rating categories, if they're set up properly.

The rating system will be based off the American Recreational Software Advisory Council's system, that they originally developed for video games and then, when threatened by Congress with the CDA, transformed for internet content. (The funny thing is, for the first year that RSACi was being promoted for use on webpages, it still had all the original references to video games. Pretty sad.) RSAC was recently folded into the Internet Content Rating Association, basically so they can revamp the RSACi system and submit it to the European Commission for approval and funding. Who is the chairman of ICRA's board of directors? Jens Waltermann again. Are you beginning to see a pattern?

Civil liberties groups world-wide have finally recognized the threat that government-mandated rating systems pose to the internet. The ACLU was the first major group to speak out against them, in their 1997 paper Fahrenheit 451.2: Is Cyberspace Burning?. But for this Munich conference, the chorus was loud and close to unanimous - the Global Internet Liberty Coalition condemned it, the ACLU condemned it, Electronic Frontiers Australia condemned it, Internet Freedom (UK civil liberties group) condemned it.

Several civil liberties groups managed to wrangle themselves invitations to the conference. The Electronic Privacy Information Center is attending and distributing a book free of charge to all participants (besides the attack on free speech, EPIC is irritated because the European Commission has also recommended that online anonymity be strictly prohibited for all European Union residents - after all, if they're anonymous, it's harder to make them obey the law). Nadine Strossen of the ACLU published the statement she's making to the Conference, harshly opposing the labeling requirements; even Esther Dyson, a tremendous supporter of rating systems, expressed her unease at the slant of the conference.

Strossen's comments above neatly summarize the civil liberties community's objections to so-called self-rating systems, and we urge all readers to take a look at that link above. She makes several points:

  1. Self-Rating Schemes Will Cause Controversial Speech To Be Censored
  2. Self-Rating Is Burdensome, Unwieldy, and Costly
  3. Conversation Can't Be Rated
  4. Self-Ratings Will Only Encourage, Not Prevent, Government Regulation
  5. Self-Ratings Schemes Will Turn the Internet into a Homogenized Medium Dominated by Commercial Speakers

Strossen is far more eloquent than we are, and she makes the points extremely well. Take a look, it's worth your time.

But back to the conference. The main document to come out of the conference is their Memorandum on Self-Regulation (538K), released yesterday. A number of "internet experts" contributed to the report - mostly these same people we've been seeing, representatives of the companies that want the Net to be kid-friendly (increase profits!) and protect-the-children groups from throughout Europe, and representatives from various governmental agencies. They lay out their censorship proposal in some detail. The basics are laid out in a single phrase: "Content providers worldwide must be mobilized to label their content...".

Prepare to get mobilized.

"It is in the best interest of industry," they say, to take the steps necessary to "enhance consumer confidence" and meet "business objectives." The suits invited must all have nodded their heads to this one: if only they could get the obnoxious people off the net, then all the soccer moms and grandpas would feel safe enough to fire up a browser and finally type in their credit card numbers.

So, problem: naughty stuff on the net. Answer? Open source! <spit>

On p. 59 of the 60-page memo is a neat diagram that looks almost like an API to a multi-layer code library. Except in this case, the bottom slice is the underlying technology of censorship (PICS), and the top slice is the user's experience of censorship (at the browser).

Sitting on top of PICS is Layer 1, in which the content creators - that's you, me, and everyone else who makes anything public on the internet - label our data with a "basic vocabulary" of keywords. If we write porn, we call it porn. Simple enough so far?

Next comes Layer 2, which is where the fun stuff starts to happen. Here, third parties can invent "template profiles." These combine the keywords in interesting ways. The idea is that in one country, the ratings systems will typically rate porn as bad but violence as OK; in another, perhaps the opposite; someone else will invent a profile for use in schools that blocks everything noneducational; a profile for your company's router might block all sports but let profanity through; a national profile for Australia might block all sex but let stupid political grandstanding through; and so on.

These template profiles should be, according to Bertelsmann, "open source."

How are they going to do this? They can't rely on a NetNanny or SurfWatch to rate the net: censorware has been a dismal failure in practice, the software just doesn't work because there's too much of the net and too few censorware employees to evaluate it all.

What they need instead is for you, the author, to do their work for them. Remember that "basic vocabulary" of keywords? It turns out you're not just going to pick porn vs. non-porn. Oh no. After all, you have to provide enough information for the profiles to work with.

That means you're going to be rating everything you publish according to:

"e.g.: gratuitous violence,

frontal nudity,
explicit sexual acts,
crude language,
vulgar language,
sports,
extreme hate speech,
arts,
aggressive violence,
death to humans,
medicine,
non-explicit sexual acts,
strong language,
history, ..."

E.g.? E.g.!? There's more?

Well, there has to be more. In fact, Bertelsmann has only scratched the surface. In order for there to be enough "template profiles" to be worth mentioning, the variety of keywords has to be extreme.

Be ready to run down a checklist for everything you write and decide whether it contains gratuitous or non-gratuitous violence, explicit or non-explicit sex acts. Please rate from 1 to 10 how much art and history was in that last post of yours. Don't think you'll have a choice about doing it - your ISP will be enforcing it upon you, as a condition of service.

And the "template profiles" that are provided for the end user? These profiles are just simple sets that group the predefined keywords together. If I'm the CEO of NetSitterPatrol, I group keywords 1, 3, 5, and 12 together and call it "NetSitterPatrol Profile."

And if I'm a national government that's cracking down on porn, violence, hate speech, or vulgar language (your government wouldn't do anything like that, would it?), I'll just add the keywords for indecency, abortion information, hate speech, racism, or whatever else I want to censor, and give the list to the backbone providers in my country to filter out and protect the delicate citizens. Hey look, I'm an open source programmer!

by Michael Sims and Jamie McCarthy

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  • It's pretty simple... by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @06:52PM
  • Re:very true and furthermore by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @08:42PM
  • idea: go at it from the other direction by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @09:38PM
  • Re:Some background information in a long screed by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @10:45PM
  • Re:But the Brits don't like Brussels by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @02:18AM
  • Bertelsmann Nazi Link URLs by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @03:55PM
  • The objective is self-censorship by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Sunday September 12 1999, @07:18PM
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 13 1999, @12:00AM (#1686993)

    Methods of "soft-regulation" can be more dangerous than direct!

    Reagle. Why the Internet is Good: Community governance that works well. [harvard.edu]

    The US Constitution is an adept instrument of constraining direct legal regulation, "Congress shall make no law ...." However, modern regulation often is indirect, it sets incentives and disincentives for others (usually the market) to implement and enforce policies more effectively than the government ever could. Whereas Reidenberg suggests that governments should shift the "focus of government action away from direct regulation and towards indirect influence;" I find this trend to be frightening because he makes an assumption that I am unwilling to make: "The shift can, nevertheless, still preserve strong attributes of public oversight." [Reid97, 588] The US Constitution is poorly equipped to constrain indirect regulation.

    Consider the following mechanisms of cyberspace regulation:

    • direct: threat of violence, monetary penalties, and imprisonment by a centralized authority. Applies if you have a locatable physical presence or assets.
    • indirect: direct methods are applied to third parties to create incentives or disincentives against the governed. (My ontology is similar to but differs from Reidenberg's [Reid97, 588])
    • link [ucsd.edu] : associate the resolution of a contentious proposal to one for which there is greater support. The US Government's Clipper III [miami.edu] proposal linked the government's contested desire to access citizens' private encryption keys to the government's ability to grant much needed legal legitimacy to digital signatures.
    • choke [ucsd.edu]: regulate those that are easy to go after. Bavarian authorities prosecuted the head of the German Compuserve [epic.org] division for providing access to Internet materials including pornography and games that were violent or had Nazi imagery.
    • gouge [ucsd.edu] : regulate those that have deep pockets, often used with choke. A US Government copyright proposal [wired.com] criminalized the contributory infringement of copyright and made Internet Service Providers fiscally liable for the actions of their users.
    • browbeat [ucsd.edu] :threaten further regulatory action. US privacy policy has to date been predicated on the - rather weak - threat that if the "industry" doesn't self regulate, the government will get involved.
    • herd [ucsd.edu] : selectively place and remove liability to channel policy towards a goal without overtly setting the direction. "Mandatory self regulation" and safe harbor provisions are frequently proposed solutions to Internet issues.

    These are the principal methods by which real world governments would like to regulate the Internet. Let us now turn to the methods the Internet has developed to regulate itself.

  • Re:OK guys, now if we just club together... by John Campbell (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @05:52AM
  • Re:Boycott Bertelsman by Wastl (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @07:53PM
  • Result unpredictable, but good approach anyway by Anders Andersson (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @01:02AM
  • Keywords? by pb (Score:2) Sunday September 12 1999, @06:42PM
  • A call to arms by Sanity (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @10:05PM
  • Re:Freedom through technology by Sanity (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @11:15PM
  • Re:Freedom through technology by Sanity (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @06:29PM
  • by Sanity (1431) on Sunday September 12 1999, @09:55PM (#1687001) Homepage Journal
    Firstly, well done on a facinating post, I hope it gets the rating it deserves. I am currently working on a project called "Freenet" which is designed to be a "workaround" for censorship on the Internet. It arranges computers into an anarchistic network and provides anonymity for providers, consumers, and even hosts of information. It is robust and in many ways will be more efficient than the world wide web (it has a very intelligent caching mechanism). If anyone can program in Java and would like to help please visit the Freenet homepage at http://freenet.on.openprojects.net [openprojects.net].

    --

  • Re:Concede the censorship & build parallel net... by Frater 219 (Score:2) Monday September 13 1999, @12:57AM
  • Re:Some background information in a long screed by peter hoffman (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @06:53AM
  • Re:Tipper = Evil by Gregg M (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @08:25PM
  • Re:OK guys, now if we just club together... by Gregg M (Score:2) Sunday September 12 1999, @08:35PM
  • How to fight back... by EAVY (Score:1) Tuesday September 14 1999, @11:45AM
  • by Bradley (2330) <bbaetz.acm@org> on Sunday September 12 1999, @08:14PM (#1687007)
    Keyword ratings just don't work. If you specify the keywords with too much detail, each web page becomes 10 K of keywords, and 1 K of content. If the list of keywords is not ridgidly fixed, you also end up with "the chicken problem", where a hard core sex site is rated the same as a cooking site, because the both have the keyword "breast". The fact that one of them refers to chicken breasts is not an issue to someone blocking keywords.

    If you don't permit enough detail, then things which shouldn't get through do.

    For a set of good examples of this, using RSAC to prove the point, see here [usyd.edu.au], but specifically this link [mrlizard.com], which rates both Alex's Haley's Roots and a pornographic, racist novel using RSACi, and finds that they both have to be given almost the same rating.

    Bradley
  • Re:OK guys, now if we just club together... by dattaway (Score:2) Monday September 13 1999, @01:42AM
  • Re:What can we do? by aqua (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @05:56AM
  • Re:Damned if we do, damned if we don't. by Harik (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @05:54AM
  • Re:Important not to be too pessimistic by xdroop (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @01:25AM
  • Re:OK guys, now if we just club together... by Howie (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @11:25PM
  • Re:Concede the censorship & build parallel net... by PhilHibbs (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @10:41PM
  • Re:Drop it on the software developers. by dynamo (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @03:16AM
  • Re:Freedom through technology by EJB (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @01:27AM
  • The sad thing... by Cironian (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @11:24PM
  • Ratings and Search Engines by EnglishTim (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @11:04PM
  • Re:An idea whose time has come: eBounty by tomwhore (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @09:59AM
  • Fuck the fucking fuckers, fucking party is fucked by tomwhore (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @10:05AM
  • Re:Keyword ratings don't work by daviddennis (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @02:39AM
  • anon.penet.fi by daviddennis (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @02:46AM
  • Misinformation by daviddennis (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @02:58AM
  • Re:Nadine Strossen makes bad arguments... by daviddennis (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @03:23AM
  • Re:Nadine Strossen makes good arguments... by TrentC (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @01:41AM
  • Re:Why the government preferrs "Self Regulation" by TrentC (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @02:03AM
  • History Repeating Itself by rnturn (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @01:43AM
  • Re:You gotta do something by rnturn (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @06:29AM
  • What can a U.S. Citizen do? by danmil (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @01:33AM
  • Other possible names by FreeUser (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @02:17AM
  • Re:Some background information in a long screed by nowonder (Score:2) Monday September 13 1999, @01:04AM
  • And what about the Constitution? by symbolic (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @04:05AM
  • The religious right ought to be having fits... by symbolic (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @04:17AM
  • An idea whose time has come by Bad Mojo (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @10:16PM
  • Re: A Messy Fight by CelestialWizard (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @09:34PM
  • Re:A call to arms by cdegroot (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @03:44AM
  • Re:The objective is self-censorship by Compuser (Score:2) Sunday September 12 1999, @07:50PM
  • Re:very true and furthermore by richnut (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @04:10AM
  • Re:It's pretty simple... by richnut (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @04:27AM
  • Re:Tipper = Evil (Offtopic) by richnut (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @04:37AM
  • Re:Bertelsmann - yet another greedy media company by celeri (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @01:00PM
  • Re:Bertelsmann - yet another greedy media company by Jurph (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @02:32PM
  • Re:Why this is fiendish by flamingdog (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @05:20AM
  • Why this is crazy (Score:4)

    by flamingdog (16938) on Sunday September 12 1999, @08:07PM (#1687044) Homepage
    The stupid proxies we use at school are already are biased enough as it is. They don't allow you to go to AD&D sites, but they'll allow you to go to sites that are against AD&D. They'll ban you from godlovesfags.com but it lets you into godhatesfags.com, tell me that wasn't the work of the government...
    Imagine how this will be on the national level. I'd be banned from half the useful information on the internet just because it was controversial or conflicting with the ideas of one of the people that decides what sites get what ratings.
    If this does become a reality, I can tell you right now I'll be fighting it with every ounce of energy I've got. You can't tell me the script kiddies won't be cracking away everyday in protest. Since some countries would ban different things (ie Germany - no hate speech...which of course translates into any speech that is controversial ) I would definately set up a system of proxies in the US and send massive amounts of email to be forwarded to the germans showing them how to use the proxies. Get the idea now? Civil disobedience is also on the top of the list, I'm sure a lot of sysadmins would be glad to rate ALL of their content as "sexually violent racial slurs" or something like that. Then when kids can't get in to te useful information, they complain to teachers or parents, and in turn to congressmen and such. Another plan is the ever popular petition. Everyone on my block and everyone in my school and everyone in my email address book would be glad to send around petitions or take a few seconds to sign one. If the leaders of this beast receive 6 billion signatures, and a few billion emails, do you think theyd get the picture? Maybe not, but it would be worth it. If EVERYONE does EVERYTHING in their power to shoot this down, I think we can.

    ---------------------------
    "I'm not gonna say anything inspirational, I'm just gonna fucking swear a lot"
  • So what are we going to do? by anthonyclark (Score:2) Sunday September 12 1999, @07:20PM
  • Content-type: image/monkeyspankin by ivan_13013 (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @07:47AM
  • and by ivan_13013 (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @08:00AM
  • Sigh. by Scudsucker (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @02:31AM
  • Re:I want Hak-nam by tweek (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @12:56AM
  • Re:You gotta do something by tweek (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @12:59AM
  • Re:Can we abandon the web? by Razorblade (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @09:30PM
  • Keeping kids away from pr0n et al. by Bald Wookie (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @03:39AM
  • I'm Not Rating My Site by Arandir (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @03:18AM
  • Re:Some background information in a long screed by Max von H. (Score:2) Sunday September 12 1999, @09:53PM
  • Re:Damned if we do, damned if we don't. by Kaa (Score:2) Monday September 13 1999, @02:09AM
  • by Kaa (21510) on Monday September 13 1999, @12:04AM (#1687056) Homepage
    Incident #1: I had forgotten the URL to a particular Amber fan-fic page that I like, and I remember that I had found it in the first place using the keyword "Bleys." I somehow ended up with several porno sites in my search results because the url was "http://www.pornsite.xxx/hotpics/bleys/corwin/teen 1.gif" or some such nonsense. There were three or four of them on the first search results page. *sigh*

    And what's so horrible about it? You found out that there was porn on the net? The search engine did the right thing: you searched for keyword "Bleys", you got sites with it. Or you really want to play-pretend that there are no naughty things on the 'net? I can understand this case as a call for better search engines, but you seem to think that this shows the need for ratings. Not IMAO.

    Incident #2, which I'm actually much more irritated by: I'm a pagan who follows the Norse gods. It's bad enough that some of the Norse pagan sites have a "racialist" slant, but it's even worse when the KKK has Meta-tags on its web-page that include Odin, Thor, and Freya. Can you imagine the impression that some kid doing a research project on Norse mythology would get if he did a web search for Thor and came up with the KKK home page??

    Sigh. I don't think you understand what the expression "freedom of speech" means. You seem to think that your view of the Norse gods is the "correct" one and other views, especially ones which you find objectionable, are the "wrong" ones and so should be eradicated, or at least kept in the ratings' dark closet never to be shown to ordinary folk. I am no big fan of KKK, but why in the world do you think they have no right to their own view of Odin, Thor, etc.??

    What would a kid doing research on Norse mythology think? Well, if he is a smart kid, he'll think that the world is a diverse place and there are sure some strange people around.

    I've got no problems with voluntary standards as long as they remain truly voluntary rather than coercive

    Unfortunately, it doesn't work this way. Obviously, no reasonable person would object to people describing their sites in keywords for the ease of finding these sites. The problem is that legislation or industry self-regulation quickly follows.

    Once upon a time it was thought that ladies and gentlemen do not use words like 'fuck' and 'cunt'. All voluntary, right? So how come there are seven words that nobody can say on the radio?

    Kaa
  • Re:What can we do? by Moofie (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @04:03AM
  • Re:Freedom through technology by MindStalker (Score:2) Sunday September 12 1999, @10:38PM
  • Re:Freedom through technology by MindStalker (Score:2) Monday September 13 1999, @10:40PM
  • Nadine Strossen makes bad arguments... by Rombuu (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @01:05AM
  • Re:Nadine Strossen makes good arguments... by Rombuu (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @02:51AM
  • Re:Nadine Strossen makes good arguments... by Rombuu (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @06:19AM
  • Re:Be afraid (of seeing racism everywhere) by WNight (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @12:54AM
  • by theCoder (23772) on Monday September 13 1999, @12:32AM (#1687064) Homepage Journal
    Along those same lines -- what's to stop those porn sites from calling themselves "educational"? Their high moral quality?

    The sites could even make an argument that they are "educational" -- children would learn all sorts of things there. Not good things, but they'd still learn.

    So now if we have porn sites calling themselves "educational", no only will they not be blocked, they'll be explicitly let into the schools! So much for protecting our children.

    When will people realize that information is neither good nor bad -- it's what we do with it that counts. Instructions on how to build a nuculear bomb are morally netural; building one and exploding it in a city is morally wrong.

    Living in ignorance is not a solution -- it's a problem.
  • I'm missing something here .. by artg (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @06:48PM
  • Re:It's pretty simple... by artg (Score:2) Sunday September 12 1999, @06:59PM
  • Tump Cards and The Politics of Emotion by Crutcher (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @10:59PM
  • .safe TLD by sparx (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @09:15PM
  • Re:.safe TLD by sparx (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @10:27PM
  • Re:Some background information in a long screed by mrex (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @12:22AM
  • Re:Boycott Bertelsman: European Groups to support by Randym (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @01:48AM
  • OK guys, now if we just club together... by quarkoid (Score:2) Sunday September 12 1999, @08:05PM
  • Concede the censorship & build parallel net... by quux26 (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @08:15PM
  • Re:Concede the censorship & build parallel net... by quux26 (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @06:19AM
  • Re:I will never ever rate my homepage. by RossB (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @12:58AM
  • by CocaCola (30016) on Sunday September 12 1999, @07:04PM (#1687076)
    " 5. Self-Ratings Schemes Will Turn the Internet into a Homogenized
    Medium Dominated by Commercial Speakers"
    Thats the goal of Bertelsmann. Bertelsmann is a multinational company which owns pay-TV and TV channels, advertising companies, newspapers, publishing companies, a share in AOL and much more. They have huge assets in non-physical 'media intellectual property', ie. sports rights, movie rights, sattelite frequencies, etc. Bertelsmann controls a fair chunk of Germany's TV-news feed to ordinary germans, and subsequently Bertelsmann has entrenched political connections to the establishment. Bertelsmann's main business plan is to _control and own information and information sources_, no matter what type of information. And the Internet as of now 'threatens' much of Bertelsmann's 'core business': proprietary information. This pretty much explains why Bertelsmann is in the center of Internet censorship.
  • Re:But the Brits don't like Brussels by Priestess (Score:2) Monday September 13 1999, @02:05AM
  • Re:Some background information in a long screed by fReNeTiK (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @09:41PM
  • Re:Concede the censorship & build parallel net... by fReNeTiK (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @10:15PM
  • Re:What about .xxx domains? by fReNeTiK (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @10:20PM
  • A Possible Ally? by remande (Score:2) Monday September 13 1999, @04:16AM
  • Re:What can we do? by remande (Score:2) Monday September 13 1999, @05:09AM
  • What about lynx? by flieghund (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @02:10AM
  • by Ethelred Unraed (32954) on Sunday September 12 1999, @10:20PM (#1687085) Journal

    Someone once made the comparison of the Internet to the Wild West. I forget who it was--I believe it was Nicholas Negroponte of Wired and MIT--but with things like this, it seems ever more apt than ever.

    The premise of the comparison was that the Wild West of the USA was once wild, untamed, mob rule--yet still on the whole tranquil, at least for the first Europeans who arrived (Davy Crockett types) who also got along with the local Indians. Then the later settlers came in, who promptly began trying to "civilize" everything--imposing rules, laws, institutions and so on, both on the earler settlers and on the Indians living with them. The previous occupants resented this and tried to fight back, but ultimately the settlers--and especially the corporations who followed them--won out through force of numbers and money (and, in the case of the Indians, through guns and disease). This is exactly what is happening here: a large, multinational company--hand in hand with other "interest groups" recently become interested in the Net--are trying to impose their value system on the wild, untamed Internet. I'm as angry as anyone here about it, but let's face it, there is little to be done: money (and power and influence) talks.

    Furthermore, those suggesting a free Internet Jr. to run parallel to the current one ignore that, eventually, it too would be swamped by corporate interests--someone would begin using it for profit, and as soon as that day arrives, it's the beginning of the end for Internet Jr. as others begin elbowing their way in. Nevermind the logistics: who would set up the backbones? Where would the bandwidth come from?

    The crazy part is that the Internet is already being Balkanized anyway, as China, Singapore, and others are in effect building parallel Internets that only have limited access to the greater Internet--precisely to screen content for political purposes. Censorship is already taking place on a massive scale, and self-censorship--i.e. by not seeking or clicking on subversive or unacceptable content for fear of prosecution or persecution--already takes place as well.

    I wish I knew of a solution, and hate being such a pessimist, but my gut feeling tells me we just have to get used to it--or go out and vote for liberal/libertarian parties up the yin-yang, then pray.

    Ethelred [surf.to]

  • an other way of selfcensorship by dermond (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @10:30PM
  • Refuse to cooperate! by Russ Nelson (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @12:09AM
  • Re:Nadine Strossen makes good arguments... by James Lanfear (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @03:11AM
  • Re:Nadine Strossen makes bad arguments... by cweber (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @03:53AM
  • The place to get real information on these issues by X-Nc (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @12:56AM
  • Re:It's pretty simple... by Erik Gryphon (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @07:10AM
  • Boycott Bertelsman by RNG (Score:2) Sunday September 12 1999, @07:08PM
  • Re:very true and furthermore by bskin (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @09:01PM
  • The real problem... by Zurk (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @02:55AM
  • Enforcement? by Woundweavr (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @10:59AM
  • Re:Bertelsmann - yet another greedy media company by chuck0 (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @01:19AM
  • Why this is fiendish by Robert Link (Score:2) Sunday September 12 1999, @11:06PM
  • Re:Reaching Consensus: Is there a better way? by Steve B (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @03:19AM
  • Re:Nadine Strossen makes good arguments... by Steve B (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @03:24AM
  • Re:Damned if we do, damned if we don't. by fable2112 (Score:2) Monday September 13 1999, @12:54AM
  • Re:Ugh.. Repeat after me.. by fable2112 (Score:2) Monday September 13 1999, @03:27AM
  • Re:In that case.. by fable2112 (Score:2) Tuesday September 14 1999, @07:23AM
  • by fable2112 (46114) on Sunday September 12 1999, @11:32PM (#1687103) Homepage

    First of all, porn sites don't charge money because of "restrictions" -- they charge money a) because they can and they know people will pay, and b) because porn is very popular, and eats lots of bandwith.

    Secondly, a workable "first step"/compromise along the lines of what the original AC was proposing would be something like this:

    1. Have the .xxx domain for porn pages. I don't think most porn pages would really mind going there -- they know what they're selling, and that way folks who want to find porn know where to go.

    2. Have a .kid domain for sites that are not only child-safe, but also child-oriented. I'd also like to see some sort of minimal-to-no advertising rule in place along with the "child-oriented" criteria.

    3. Leave the rest of the net alone.

    Folks who wanted ordinary net-access, which would include access to .kid but not .xxx, would pay the normal price. Folks who wanted access to .xxx would have to prove that they were over 18 (or 21, as the case may be in some states) and either pay extra or realize that some of the .xxx sites are probably going to spam them. :)

    Folks who wanted the .kid sites only (along with the currently existing .k12.us), or a filter to switch on and off, would ALSO pay extra. The extra money would help defray the cost of having .kid, since advertising beyond perhaps a simple "sponsored by (insert normal .com or .edu site here)" would be prohibited, and those with the .kid filters on couldn't access the advertising.

    Thoughts? Could this work?
  • by fable2112 (46114) on Sunday September 12 1999, @10:08PM (#1687104) Homepage

    On the one hand, censorship is a very bad thing. I think we can all (for the most part) agree on that. And even most "voluntary" systems have the potential to become de facto censorship (look at what's happened to movies thanks to the MPAA rating system, which BTW doesn't tell you anything about what's actually IN the movies ... is an R-rated movie a political satire that happens to contain a few F-words and some minor violence like Bob Roberts, a serious war movie like Apocalypse Now, an historically fascinating movie with lots of sex in it like Dangerous Beauty, a high school slasher flick like Scream, or what? And why shouldn't kids under 17 be able to see any of the above? Oh well.)

    On the other hand, two recent incidents from my own web-surfing make me wish there was something that could be done so that, at the least, search engines don't spit out something that isn't what you're looking for (and that you definitely wouldn't want to BE looking for). And both of these give me some understanding as to why a parent would *want* to use blocking software (silly as I think the stuff is).

    Incident #1: I had forgotten the URL to a particular Amber fan-fic page that I like, and I remember that I had found it in the first place using the keyword "Bleys." I somehow ended up with several porno sites in my search results because the url was "http://www.pornsite.xxx/hotpics/bleys/corwin/teen 1.gif" or some such nonsense. There were three or four of them on the first search results page. *sigh*

    Incident #2, which I'm actually much more irritated by: I'm a pagan who follows the Norse gods. It's bad enough that some of the Norse pagan sites have a "racialist" slant, but it's even worse when the KKK has Meta-tags on its web-page that include Odin, Thor, and Freya. Can you imagine the impression that some kid doing a research project on Norse mythology would get if he did a web search for Thor and came up with the KKK home page?? (My boyfriend and I discovered this via 2600's web page, which talked about the past hack of the KKK site.)

    I have ratings tags on a few of my pages, and I'll put them on ALL of my pages when I finish my move to drak.net. I've got no problems with voluntary standards as long as they remain truly voluntary rather than coercive. And I'd much rather have to self-rate than have the government step and rate for me.

    But as far as setting up a standard goes, it's damned if we do and damned if we don't, so to speak. The "chicken breast" problem has already been mentioned, but if you want something more sophisticated, you're going to have to deal with the more "complex" rating systems, and even those won't give you all the info you'd like to have. (Case in point: someone rating the KJV Bible using SafeSurf. *chuckles*)

    On the surface, the VCR seems like a good idea, but it was come up with by Solid Oak, a company I wouldn't trust farther than I could throw my station wagon. (They make CyberSitter. Nuff said.) How would they actually like to see "suitable for 13 and up" vs. "suitable for 18 and up" defined? I don't think I want the answer. Again, godhatesfags.com would probably be 13+, while godlovesfags.com would probably be 18+. *sigh*

    I wish I could think of some way to cover all the bases here, but there just isn't one. Any possible system (including no system) is open to abuse. Having no system makes it really easy to mis-inform the public or at least the search engines about your content (see above KKK example). OTOH, even a purely voluntary system is likely to cause problems for, say, the gay 15-year-old son of fundie parents, or the sexual abuse victim. (I've talked to plenty of these kids online, and it's not pretty.)

    The problem I've always had with ratings meant to protect children is that the parents who have decent relationships with their kids don't need the standards -- they can just say that they'd rather their kids wait to see the movie, read the book, or check out certain kids of Web pages. It's generally the fundie, abusive, or otherwise scary parents who want to keep their kids from accessing certain content. And those tend to be the kids who need the alleged pornography or Satanic sites the most. (Gay teen support groups, Pagan info, sexual abuse survivor sites, you get the idea.)

    *sigh* I wish I had a good answer. Unfortunately, I don't. But the questions are important to ask on *both* sides of the issue, rather than just making knee-jerk anti-censorship statements -- tempting as I know that is.
  • Re:Reaching Consensus: Is there a better way? by Mr. Slippery (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @04:10AM
  • Will Spammers comply?! by weave (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @09:49PM
  • Re:Some background information in a long screed by anticypher (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @02:55AM
  • Re:Chose Your Fights by anticypher (Score:2) Monday September 13 1999, @01:33AM
  • A lot of what I know about Bertelsmann has been documented in several magazines in Europe. The one I can think of is a 20+ page article in the French "L'Express" (a slightly left leaning right wing weekly that prides itself on long researched articles with plenty of detail and facts) [as I write this, I realise they are owned by Hachette, a direct competitor in both print and internet].

    They are also punted about by the conspiracy theorists, who study any connection with Bavaria and powerful groups based there. Tends to generate a lot of material, most of which I discount.

    I also know of them since they are a competitor in the internet world, especially picking up consulting jobs advising large scale communication projects, which is where I make all my money. So I tend to read what I can about them. They are considered "conservative" by my Bavarian friends, who I consider to be the most conservative people I know. Their views on "self-censorship" are widely known in Bavaria, and stir up old memories and a lot of discussion. They also employ more people there than BMW and the beer industry combined.

    the AC

    [As I read back over what I've posted, I'm beginning to get the idea I should go find my flame retardant undies, or perhaps not read /. for a day :-) ]
  • Various things in Michael and Jamie's well written article need some clarification for our American audience.

    Anonymity. This is one of my regular problems working in Europe. France has codified into law outlawing all anonymity, and has even criminalized attempting to hide your identity from any governmental organisation. This is one of the remnants of the Vichy government, and was kept by the domestic surveillance DST and SCSSI services. Other countries with a history of terrorist acts on their soil have also outlawed anonymity (England and Germany), but Italy and Norway allow it.

    Bertelsmann. The European Commission (DG13) created a budget of 10 Million Euros to study "the threat to national laws by the internet, and methods to enforce national laws within European borders" (paraphrased from memory). Bertelsmann picked up the entire E10million (no euro symbol in ISO8859, yet) through their contacts with an "old boys network" controlling DG XIII [*disclaimer*, this could be sour grapes, I helped a client bid on the project, and there were 12 shortlisted big companies all locked out]. They have created a draft proposal designed to protect all their interests as the largest publisher in Europe, as well as a major shareholder in dozens of ISPs including AOL. Bertelsmann also controls several of the largest publishing houses in the U.S., and is the largest single owner of copyright material in the U.S.

    If other posters start using inflammatory terms like "Hitler", "Nazism", and "Censorship", it could be justified in this slashdot thread.

    Bertelsmann made its fortune during the Nazi's rise to power in the 1930s, as the publisher of the Nazi manifests. They gained the favor of the Nazi party by being the first publisher to openly embrace "self-censorship" when the Nazi party wasn't yet powerful enough to create laws. They purged their entire publishing line of questionable materials (what we might call free-thinking), then taunted other publishing houses to do the same.

    When the Nazis came to power, all the publishers defending "free press" or "freedom of speech" were put out of business, and their facilities were given to Bertelsmann. This gave Bertelsmann 90% of the publishing market during the war.

    After WWII, the Bertelsmann empire came through mostly intact, and used Marshall plan reconstruction funds to rebuild its antiquated facilities into a modern (for the 1950s) business. There was only a few prosecutions of Bertelsmann upper management for war crimes (but only in conjunction for military activities), and Bertelsmann became a major haven for ex-Nazis looking for a new life after the war.

    Back to the problem at hand.

    There is a realisation that the internet can route around most problems related to network connectivity. But by crafting restrictive laws tied into the licensing of tier 1 & 2 internet carriers (all in europe are considered telcos, and licensed accordingly), then effective censorship can be imposed. There are a few technical work arounds, but for every hackish proposal of IPSec tunnels, there is an easier government response of pressure on the license holders.

    So, all you slashdotters should be afraid, if you want to continue to have free (as in liberty) and unlimited access to the internet. Once the EU gets a handful of workable laws on the books, the U.S. and Australia will follow suit. I would also expect every militaristic/fascist/religious government to take notice as well.

    Expect within 10-15 years you will look back on the '90s as the golden years before the big evil governments woke up and took back control. Not only do we have to fight this at the law making level, we also have to create bigger and better protocols and workarounds to make it impossible for tier 1 & 2 providers to filter content.

    Ok, go back to sleep now.

    the AC
  • Re:"Most people are too stupid" by stras (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @02:41AM
  • Self Regulation Much More Threatening by BitrSweet (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @02:28AM
  • Re:Keyword ratings don't work by FLuke27 (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @03:29AM
  • So what can we do about it? by Weezul (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @01:03PM
  • An idea whose time has come: eBounty by dpdx (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @09:51AM
  • Re:Damned if we do, damned if we don't. by daemon23 (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @02:01AM
  • Re:It's pretty simple... by solios (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @06:58PM
  • Re:Don't stop it - these laws are good. by solios (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @07:07PM
  • time for Infowar.... by solios (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @07:11PM
  • Drop it on the software developers. by solios (Score:2) Sunday September 12 1999, @07:04PM
  • Internet Zoning..... by speek (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @02:57AM
  • Re:.xxx, .kid, and protecting children by speek (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @03:35AM
  • The name "freenet" by Black Marlin (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @10:17PM
  • What about .xxx domains? by agtofchaos (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @09:35PM
  • Re:Will Spammers comply?! by radja (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @11:13PM
  • It is a conspiracy... by shadow0_0 (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @02:28PM
  • Re:michael? NO! by Szoup (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @12:08AM
  • Re:Reaching Consensus: Is there a better way? by jflynn (Score:2) Monday September 13 1999, @04:03AM
  • Re:Bertelsmann - The accursed source of Yanni by quonsar (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @02:12AM
  • Re:What about .xxx domains? by Jonny Royale (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @01:51AM
  • Re:OK guys, now if we just club together... by ucblockhead (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @01:34AM
  • The shape of things to come. by Clockwork Apple (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @08:11PM
  • Re:Concede the censorship & build parallel net... by Clockwork Apple (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @08:46PM
  • Re:The shape of things to come. by Clockwork Apple (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @11:19PM
  • Re:The time of Big Brother? by Clockwork Apple (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @12:01AM
  • Re:Stand back and look for a minute: by Clockwork Apple (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @12:15AM
  • Re: Email Letter Writing Workshops? by Crick (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @08:21PM
  • Re:Why the government preferrs "Self Regulation" by DanMcS (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @06:47AM
  • by Noryungi (70322) on Sunday September 12 1999, @07:55PM (#1687139) Homepage Journal
    Here are a few thoughts on this conference...

    A couple of points to be noticed:

    1. This entire thing has been organized by a private "foundation". That probably means we are safe from ultra-stupid and clueless laws and regulations, since the proceedings of this conference will not have the same weight as if it was, say, organized by the EU Parliament of Strasbourg. So far, this is one good point.

    2. On the other hand... the foundation in question is the *Bertelsmann* Foundation. For those of you who are not in Europe, Bertelsmann is one of the largest publisher in Germany (and also in Europe, and in the world). Think Rupert Murdoch with a German accent, and you have a pretty good idea of what Bertelsmann is. Now, this a certified Very Bad Thing (tm), since German publishers are notoriously conservative and stuck-up. And, AFAIK,
    Bertelsmann is no exception to the rule, unfortunately.

    That does not mean German people (in general) are
    conservative and stuck-up -- just that their press is. (If you are German, don't flame me, I have very good German friends that I respect and care about -- thank you very much).

    3. Another Very, Very, Very BAD Thing (tm) is the roster of "experts" that are on board. We have a *huge* bunch of politicos, law "experts" (read: clueless lawyers) and, worse than this, "law-enforcement experts" -- with a huge contingent of German people. Again, I don't want to appear critical of Germany, but we have to remember it was Bavarian police officers who prosecuted CompuServe for "porn" and also tried to block German users from the XS4LL Dutch web site and access provider because of some leftist/anarchist web site there.

    Oh, and we also have a representative from... Microsoft Corporation Europe (Shock! Horror! The Number of the Beast!!) =)

    On the plus side, we also have one (count them, people, "one" !) representative from the ACLU. and Esther Dyson, which, I suspect, is more interested in pushing ICANN than really defending free speech. Ouch. Click here for a complete list of experts. [bertelsmann.de]

    In summary, we have a probably conservative foundation, putting a panel of "experts", made up of "law-enforcement officers" (policemen, to remain polite). That panel of expert is going to convene in a city and a state of Germany known for its heavy-handed tactics against the 'net and its conservative Catholicism. Draw your own conclusions (DYOC).

    That does not smell good people. Not by a long shot. I'll keep an eye on this.

    Just my US$ 0.02...

  • Re:Can we abandon the web? by spooky ghost (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @09:51PM
  • Re:Why the government preferrs "Self Regulation" by Jim McCusker (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @01:43AM
  • why is everthing 'for the children'? by dozr (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @10:17PM
  • Bertelsmann - The accursed source of Yanni by goodviking (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @11:12PM
  • Re:Reaching Consensus: Is there a better way? by plague3106 (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @09:16AM
  • Re:very true and furthermore by reptilian (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @07:25PM
  • unification (Score:3)

    by reptilian (75755) on Sunday September 12 1999, @07:15PM (#1687146)
    This isnt direct to the topic, but close. Please try to keep an open mind.

    Something like this shouldn't be possible. A confrence like this shouldn't have been able to get past the random neuron connection in someone's mind stage. The problem here it seems is the eurpoean unification.

    When you unify, you also promote a centralization of power. This is a Bad Thing(tm). I see it here in the US, and now in europe. The federal government is taking more and more power, a centralized power, where that power should be left most entirely to the individual states.

    Now the world has taken it a step further: The EU. We now have a trend of entire countries themselves unifying under a common flag, of sorts. And whether the EU has a great amount of power or not is not the point. The point is that the power is centralized. It's taken father away from the individual. The more people you have to rule, the less the individual matters. This inevitably leads to assaults on civil liberties, because what do civil liberties matter but to the individual?

    It seems rather unavoidable anymore, though. With greater internationalization, there's always going to be an inevitable push toward commonality between nations This can be achieved through unification.

    Perhaps the age of empires is at hand once again.
  • Re:Damned if we do, damned if we don't. by Garth Vader (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @01:22AM
  • Re:Important not to be too pessimistic by Schmander (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @02:13PM
  • Re:I'm missing something here .. by sgs (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @09:00PM
  • On Censorship and Revolution by zantispam (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @03:14AM
  • Stand back and look for a minute: by 78spb89 (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @11:16PM
  • Chose Your Fights by richard_willey (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @11:31PM
  • Re:Important not to be too pessimistic by The Code Hog (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @12:10AM
  • Can we abandon the web? by Pinback (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @06:58PM
  • Me, I will fight. by engel (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @05:28AM
  • Required Reading for those who oppose Censorship by Prote O' Zoa (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @01:46AM
  • One bright light by Madman (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @02:15AM
  • Re:Don't stop it - these laws are good. by E-Rock (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @07:05PM
  • Tipper = Evil by E-Rock (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @07:12PM
  • Re:Tipper = Evil (Offtopic) by E-Rock (Score:1) Friday September 17 1999, @12:52AM
  • French Law is against ISP-level censorship ! by Thomas Miconi (Score:2) Monday September 13 1999, @02:02AM
  • by ct (85606) on Sunday September 12 1999, @06:43PM (#1687162) Homepage
    One more point should have been added..

    6. Self-Rating Schemes will be used only at each extreme of the spectrum, by those who have something to gain by being at that end of the spectrum.

    Run a XXX site? Damn right I'm going to rate my site an 11 out 10 - people search for the baddest of the bad. Or if click-through advertisers start limiting their ads to host pages with acceptable ratings, you can bet every page will suddenly be rated "suitable for a 2 year old". Like it or not, the inherent decency of mankind (or what little does exist) will by and large go straight out the window once the almighty dollar makes an appearance.
  • Re:Drop it on the software developers. by boojie (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @08:59PM
  • Re:What can we do? by mOdQuArK! (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @09:11AM
  • But MCI's not a Government ISP by Greyfox (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @10:27AM
  • Why the government preferrs "Self Regulation" by Greyfox (Score:2) Sunday September 12 1999, @11:43PM
  • I want Hak-nam by Shagul (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @12:12AM
  • Concede nothing! by Kitsune Sushi (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @10:17PM
  • Re:idea: go at it from the other direction by Kitsune Sushi (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @10:38PM
  • Ugh.. Repeat after me.. by Kitsune Sushi (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @01:37AM
  • In that case.. by Kitsune Sushi (Score:1) Tuesday September 14 1999, @05:52AM
  • Personally.. by Kitsune Sushi (Score:1) Tuesday September 14 1999, @03:40PM
  • Why this won't work by nahdude812 (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @12:40AM
  • That just won't work by nahdude812 (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @12:45AM
  • Good chance for a pincer movement... by Count Cadence (Score:2) Sunday September 12 1999, @10:47PM
  • The time of Big Brother? by Judg3 (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @09:20PM
  • Re:Keyword ratings don't work by Christov (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @03:28AM
  • Re:What can we do? (Score:3)

    by Dark Matter (89115) on Sunday September 12 1999, @07:04PM (#1687178)
    Although I might seem a bit cynical, but there seems little we _can_ do. Those who want total freedom of content, and who want the rights to access everything anonymously, are just a small portion of all voters (so you can forget voting them away). Furthermore, a lot of people really believe that it can only do good (protect the children, yaddiyaddiyaddi).

    What frustrates me even more is that it all wouldn't make the least bit of difference. If a child/young adolescent wants to lay their hands on porn (or whatever) they shall get it, one way or another. And according to me sex, nudity, etc. hasn't done anyone any harm...(most of us are born thanks to sex ;-) ). The same goes for violence. I have never in my life had the urge to smash someone's skull after watching a particulary violent movie.

    I wonder when the governments are finally going to realise that even the lowly civilians can grow up and make up their own mind. If you find something on the web that would upset you, don't visit the site, if you read something that you don't want to read, don't read it.

    For me it's all very simple... just do what you want to do, if you want to spend the entire day writing/reading hate texts, watch porn, experiment with drugs, etc. do it, as long as you don't bother anyone else with it, I don't care. and neither should anyone else.
  • Ayn Rand (bit offtopic but what the heck) by jsm2 (Score:1) Sunday September 12 1999, @08:21PM
  • The Commission and the Parliament by jsm2 (Score:2) Sunday September 12 1999, @08:14PM
  • by jsm2 (89962) on Sunday September 12 1999, @10:41PM (#1687181)
    Oh gawd ... revealing my true colours as a terrible political hack.

    AC above is right that Blair and his bunch are frightening, paternalistic weasels. But:

    1. This particular measure isn't likely to even reach the government. It's being put together by the "foundation", under the aegis of the European Commission (The Commission != the European Parliament -- it's kind of like a Civil Service sort of thing, but more powerful).

    2. Because of this, it will be sorted out by civil servants. If the relevant UK minister (not sure who that would be -- prob Jack Straw?) ever sees it, it will be just to tick up the civil servants' decision to keep stalling. Unless it becomes a cause celebre, in which case his mind will be on damage limitation.

    3. Why am I so sure that the UK civil servants will want to stall it forever? Well:

    First, because they don't want to transfer any power to Brussels. They hate Brussels.

    Second, if they allow the Commission to have jurisdiction on this one, they will be in a weak position to resist when the EC says that it should have jurisdiction in the matter of taxing the Internet when that comes up for negotiation. For a UK civil servant, the very Worst Thing You Can Possibly Do is to allow any tax power to go to Brussels.

    Third, they will look at it and fear bad publicity. Civil service departments are more and more coming to be ruled by their Press Offices.

    That's the reasoning behind my attack strategy. We can't do anything about the first and second points, but the third depends on how much of a media sh*tstorm can be generated. The rule of thumb is always that if two out of UK, France, Germany, Italy and Spain are against something, it's dead. I think that this is achievable.

    jsm

    (who, in a past life, was one of these bloodsucking drones)
  • by jsm2 (89962) on Sunday September 12 1999, @07:18PM (#1687182)
    This from the article:

    The European Commission's plan runs from January 1999 to December 2002, four years. 1999 is scheduled for development and meetings. 2000 is scheduled for rollout and beta testing. 2001 and 2002 are allocated for the encouragement process and tweaking - making sure everyone is toeing the line.

    Well ... having had some experience of the European Commission, I'd say that it won't be as simple as this. Getting a quorum behind a draft Directive on anything controversial (particularly when there are differing national cultures) is a difficult, time-consuming and painful business. I would imagine that the Brits will hold this one up in process for years.

    US$11million doesn't really sound like that much of a budget, when you consider how fantastically overpaid and over-expensed EC personnel are. It's important not to see this as an inevitability.

    So what can we do? Hassle them! Hassle them to death! Make sure that every Euro politician knows that he'll have to face election as "The guy who's trying to censor the Internet". Or even better "The guy who's trying to let Brussels censor the Internet for us". Politicians hate that stuff -- anything which appears to be "complicated" or "unpopular" tends to be avoided.

    Start creating the impression that it is technically impossible to censor the Internet. If I were really Machiavellian, I would suggest "extending" the META tag formats into a million and one incompatible versions, so that the keyword approach wouldn't work. But just suggesting to non-techie bureaucrats that it's a technological nightmare will suffice to raise millions of "issues" which slow the whole thing down.

    It seems like unsatisfactory, but to my certain knowledge the Takeover Directive has been held up in this fashion by vested interests for 20 years. Let's all be a vested interest.

    jsm
  • by jsm2 (89962) on Sunday September 12 1999, @07:03PM (#1687183)
    Self rating for "Extreme Hate Speech" has to be the dumbest idea I've ever heard. If someone thinks that the Holocaust never happened, he[1] doesn't consider that to be hate speech, he thinks that it's the correct version of history. Even the Reverend Fred Phelps thinks that "God Hates Fags" is an expression of love.

    Perhaps the European Union will come up with categories like "Aryan Self-defence" or "Christian Truth -- Homosexuality" that people would actually use, but I rather suspect that political correctness will interfere with effective lawmaking here.

    Not that I actually want to see effective lawmaking ... which side am I on again? I'm confused and I can't remember what my name is ...

    jsm

    [1] in principle, "he or she", in practice, "he".
  • Censorship is unconstitutional by metawronka (Score:1) Monday September 13 1999, @01:15AM
  • 87 replies beneath your current threshold.
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