Once Upon A Game 83
Technopulp writes "In William Vitka's column on CBSNews.com, Henry Jenkins of MIT, author Warren Ellis and GDC Director Jamil Moledina wax philosophical about storytelling in video games and discuss whether or not gaming will ever have its own kind of great literature. 'Could a game be as good a work as War and Peace?'"
Re:No. - Duke Nukem Forever (Score:2, Funny)
Re:No. (Score:1)
If we want well written stories, game companies need to start accepting scripts written by honest-to-god authors, and realise that to get a gripping storyline they need to design the gameplay around the story, not the story around the gameplay. Yeah, in Hollywood they occasionally design the script around the special effects, but I'm so damn tired of every game having all the emotional content of a cheesy action movie - even some of the gam
Re:No. (Score:2)
Re:No. (Score:2)
But we're not talking about merely good stories here. There are plenty of great stories that are the furtherest thing from "gripping." Many authors could care less about providing you with viceral thrills. There are good adventure tales that have stood out over tim
Re:No. (Score:1)
Re:No. (Score:1)
But then you are creating a book or movie with a few game elements, not a game. You are trying to shoehorn the paradigms of a traditional medium into a different one. That approach will not net us any good "literature" for games unless by accident. To create a truly great work you must use your medium to your advantage, not fight it. Instead of thinking up a static storyline and maki
Well, videogames aren't about the story. (Score:5, Interesting)
No. You remember it because of the gameplay. I'm not saying that a game with story is impossible, I'm definitely not. Half Life, System Shock, Elder Scrolls, Final Fantasy... All games with great stories... but they are mostly remembered for their gameplay, right?
A game is great becuase it plays well and is fun. Story is just the icing on the cake, and does not alone make a great game make.
Re:Well, videogames aren't about the story. (Score:1)
Re:Well, videogames aren't about the story. (Score:4, Insightful)
Absolutely true. But story isn't really what great literature is about -- the plot is a device to carry a theme, or multiple themes. The trappings are what make great literature great -- imagery, etc. And there's the inherent problem with videogames -- images are laid out for the player/viewer. Timing (which is cornerstone of Hitchcock's famous knack for suspense) is in the hands of the player, not the director/designer.
This is a major problem with video games as art -- the viewed product is never exactly as the developer intended. Whereas a great artwork is typically a 'finished' product by the artist, often with many revisions before achieving the piece intended, video games are never a single version. What we see in most artful videogames is, instead, the creation of a mood or atmosphere. Without complete control over the user experience, it's hard to have the same kind of art as the 'traditional' masterpieces of literature or film. And if the designer did have complete control of the user experience, well, then it's an animated movie.
As the industry (and its audience!)continues to mature, I think we'll see more games based on story. I can't imagine myself playing a twitch game when I'm 70 (even if I had the reflexes then, I'm not sure I'd want to risk the heart attack), but a good story might really appeal.
Re:Well, videogames aren't about the story. (Score:3, Funny)
Insert George Lucas reference here.
Re:Well, videogames aren't about the story. (Score:2)
Disagree. Story is ALL that matters in books. It is the essence of the book. Of course, I probably think that 90+% of what you'd consider great literature is less entertaining than the B rate sci-fi m ovie I saw last night.
Re:Well, videogames aren't about the story. (Score:2)
FWIW, your point of view is just as valid, but the consensus among the people who tell us what the 'classics' are happen to disagree.
Look at Hitchcock's "The Birds." The story is crap, but the suspense is masterful. The film really evokes the fear of the characters, and it's Hitchcock's use of timing and camera angles/effects that really make it work. So is it a great work, or is it crap?
Re:Well, videogames aren't about the story. (Score:2)
Right, but those people's taste is just terrible. The last thing they want in a book is entertainment value! Nothing practical can be art, therefore a written work that entertains cannot be "a classic of literature". To Hell with every piece of crap I was forced to read in high school - my library contains 1000 books each more entertaining than any of them.
Re:Well, videogames aren't about the story. (Score:1)
Re:Well, videogames aren't about the story. (Score:2)
Would "Snow Crash" be as entertaining without Stephenson's machine gun prose? Would "A Song of Ice and Fire" be as involving without Martin's richly detailed and realistic characters? Would LOTR be as popular without Tolkien's insane amount of detail? Would "One Hundred Years of Solitude" be as engrossing without Marquez's incomparable use of magical realism?
Let me give you
Re:Well, videogames aren't about the story. (Score:1)
I hate to go all English major on you (I'm not an English major, I promise), but a look at the classics can show you quite simply that the story takes a back seat. One of the biggest things that makes great/classic literature last is that it teaches the reader something about herself and/or society. Take a look at Brave New World, for example. The story was not the important part, it was mere
Re:Well, videogames aren't about the story. (Score:2)
No, I'm looking at it right. You're looking at it wrong :)
Re:Well, videogames aren't about the story. (Score:1)
Re:Well, videogames aren't about the story. (Score:1)
Re:Well, videogames aren't about the story. (Score:1)
Re:Well, videogames aren't about the story. (Score:1)
Re:Well, videogames aren't about the story. (Score:1)
Are you sure about that distinction? Just because a great artwork is 'finished', it doesn't mean that it is viewed exactly as the artist intended. Books don't have to be read cover to cover. Paintings can be glanced at in poorly illuminated rooms. Films can be interrupted by unplanned comfort breaks.
The subjectivity of the
Re:Well, videogames aren't about the story. (Score:2)
We Can Make Games Better (Score:2)
A previous poster in a previous th
Re:We Can Make Games Better (Score:2)
Unfortunately, that's an AI-hard problem. Nobody can do text generation. Nobody even knows how to
Re:We Can Make Games Better (Score:2)
Actually, I like sandbox games. Though Bethesda has done grea work with TES series, which allow both sandbox play and plot-driven play -- allows for a change of pace, and allows themes to be brought out in the plots.
Re:Well, videogames aren't about the story. (Score:2)
Only for certain genres. What do people remember about the Myst series - the fantastic point-and-click gameplay? The slideshow-style graphics? No; they remember the incredibly immersive storyline.
That's one extreme, in which the game IS the story, and the mouse/keyboard are just there to help you experience it. Then there are other games like the Final Fantasy series, which wouldn't be nearly as fun if they di
Homicidal Semaphore (Score:2)
Unless, I guess, there was a way you could have a great story in a game named Homicidal Semaphore.
And then what would be next, a FPS with an aldis lamp? Oh right, they already did that and called it Doom 3.
Betrayal at Krondor (Score:2)
You have obviously never played games like Betrayal at Krondor [wikipedia.org]. Definitely great storywork there, and was intermingled with gameplay. The description of even common things like items and "flavor" characters were very rich and detailed.
I'll stop with the pump up, but imagine a political game with descriptions and narrative from Jon Stewart, or maybe an economics/finance game with narrative from other popstars (Jim Cramer, etc).
The fact
Re:Well, videogames aren't about the story. (Score:2)
Yes, my wife and I did this. I played Grim Fandago (having played it once years before) while she watched it on tv (mirror screen).
Re: (Score:2)
Depends on your definition of "good". (Score:3, Funny)
How strange... I just the oddest senation of thousands of World Lit 101 teachers spinning in their graves.
Re:Depends on your definition of "good". (Score:3)
I'm spinning, and I haven't even died yet!
Re:Depends on your definition of "good". (Score:1)
Why shoot so low? (Score:5, Insightful)
Thats the problem with people who talk about art and wether games are art- art doesn't exist. People tag some items as "art" and others as "not art" as pure snob appeal- a way to say this is what I like and others who like this are better than other people. Its nothing intrinsic in the item. There's no magical quality of an object that catapults it to the level or art or fine art. Its wether it appeals to a small group of snobs.
Hell, the set of what's included as art doesn't even stay the same. Remberandt and Van Gogh were starving artists. Shakespear was considered lewd and crude in his day and lambasted for appealing to the masses.
Forget about striving to become art or creating something for the ages. Make a game thats fun. In the end, thats all that matters.
Re:Why shoot so low? (Score:1)
Does anyone give a shit about "the art world" other than academics and the filthy rich?
Re:Why shoot so low? (Score:1)
Re:Why shoot so low? (Score:1)
I have over a thousand books in my collection, it's not an aversion to reading.
If you find a 15 yr-old on Xbox Live that has read "War and Peace" and found it relevant (or even understood what the hell was being said) then I'll eat crow.
Games may not be "art" on the level discussed here, but in the end, it's one of the only "arts" getting to the demographic.
If Shakesphere were alive today, he would choose the medium that allowed him to reach the most people and make the most money. H
Re:Why shoot so low? (Score:1)
Re:Why shoot so low? (Score:2)
I'm a geek who's a graduate student in English Literature, so perhaps I can provide some special insight into the matter. Ready? Here we go:
YOU'RE WRONG!!!!11!!
Okay seriously, the thing is that what makes "literature" lasting doesn't so much have to do with its engagingness as a story as to its level of ph
Re:Why shoot so low? (Score:3, Interesting)
As I said in another part of the thread- appeal to authority is a logical fallacy.
And no, the thing
Re:Why shoot so low? (Score:2)
I've enjoyed reading this thread, because I can appreciate the well reasoned arguments of both sides. I have to call exception to the above though. What really matters, is making something that you like to play, not what you think o
Re:Why shoot so low? (Score:2)
Re:Why shoot so low? (Score:2)
Re:Why shoot so low? (Score:2)
Well that's getting us off to a great start. (groan) I said maybe I could provide some insight, and I provided the justification I used for why I thought it was worth providing. I was trying to help, not posit my words as the be-and-end-all of truth. Of course I think I'm right, otherwise I wouldn't think it. Of course also, you're free to take it, leave it, or (to slip into english student mode) engage with it and work t
Re:Why shoot so low? (Score:3, Interesting)
Whether you enjoyed reading it is the measure of quality. Other than that, no measure is possible.
Well, that is kind of self fullfilling- in 100 years, if we still remember it, its remembered through the ages :)
Re:Why shoot so low? (Score:2)
Utter bullshit. It translates to "I think this interpretation is cool, so I'm going to pretend its right wether it is or not". If you used logic like that in the sciences, you'd be laughed out of academia.
I find it amusing that you, who are so quick to accuse other people of logical fallacies, are yourself so fond of strawmen. Please, before you decide arbitrarily to attack an entire body
Re:Why shoot so low? (Score:2)
I think I would agree... but to remind that after increasingly long periods of time, the things that are remembered and continue to be read are often quite different from what is popular at the time, and that people do enjoy reading literature. Maybe not you, but Shakespeare is read profitably, and enjoyably, by many even now.
Well, that is kind of self fullfilling- in 100 years, if we still remember it, its re
Re:Why shoot so low? (Score:1)
War and Peace is a bad example. The story itself isn't that long, it's just padded out really badly, the author rambles on and on repeating himself over and over again, saying things he's already said a hundred times before.
There are books of similar length which aren't nearly as turgid or heavy, such as the
There are plenty of games that last longer! (Score:3, Insightful)
I do get fed up with the "games as storytellers" topic. I don't quite understand where it comes from. Just because games are played on TV, doesn't mean they *have* to be compared with movies. Football (soccer) is played on grass, but has nothing to do with tending one's lawn. In fact, quite the opposite!
Some games have stories, great. Not all games do. Games generate their own stories. Consider the storyline of the last game of chess you played or the last basketball match you watched. *If* a game sets out to tell a story (eg RPG), then fine, compare it with stories. If it doesn't, then stop bothering.
From the article: "Creating powerful narratives is the next step
And, most of all, STOP LUMPING ALL GAMES INTO THE SAME POT.
Re:There are plenty of games that last longer! (Score:1)
The relationship between interactivity and storytelling is a tricky one. Anyone should be able to recognize that you don't need a "plot" in order to enjoy a video game. However, like you pointed out, a gamer generates their own story. The more freedom the gamer has within the game, the more interesting a story can be generated. Ironically, games which progress "on rails" through a fairly strict storyline are those that give the gamer the least freedom to generate a story.
I wrote the following paper
Because I have to mention it at least twice a year (Score:1)
I think this might be more of a case of apples and oranges. Think about TV and movies... a great TV show doesn't always make for a good movie and vice versa. Similar to that a TV show can be regarded as a great work and not necessarily have the best written story
war and peace (Score:3, Interesting)
"Jenkins elaborates, "The last hundred pages [of "War and Peace"] is this essay that Tolstoy wrote, saying 'if the Russians had done this differently, then this would have been the result and if the French had done this differently then this would have been the result.' "It's not hard to look at 'War and Peace' and say that this wanted to be a video game."
Absurd. The last hundred pages of War and Peace describe the way in which events necessarily turned out as they did, and that those in power were so constrained by their roles that they had no more choice than the cannons that fired at Borodino. The true power, Tolstoy claims, lies with the people--but not in any concrete choices they make. In their mass action they constitute the integral of history, that which drives and shapes it. Tolstoy would never, ever, ever have said "if X had done Y differently, Z would have happened." He viciously attacked those who said precisely that--they were looking only at the manifestations of history, not its causes.
And for all of you who appreciate [insert videogame here] more than Tolstoy: it's your perogative, and there's no accounting for taste. But I've played a lot of videogames, and I've read a lot of Tolstoy (Anna Karenina, Resurrection, War and Peace, The Devil, The Forged Coupon, The Death of Ivan Illyich, Family Happiness, Sevastopol in May, Sevastopol in December, The Kreutzer Sonata, and countless other short stories). And as someone who met and appreciated video games (and I can think of several games I would classify as 'brilliant') before I encountered Tolstoy, I'll say this: I have never played a game that posessed anything like the fierce invention, modal clarity and deep insight of Tolstoy's works. It may be fashionable to bash literature on Slashdot--there was a discussion on Shakespeare vs. Video Games the other day on which I barely restrained myself from commenting--but the insight of War and Peace will never grow old or die.
Re:war and peace (Score:1)
Re:war and peace (Score:1)
It is already difficult to play many Win95, DOS and older games. I am fairly confident that the staying power of a literary work that has been translated into every significant living language on earth as well as adapted to stage and film multiple timees over is greater than that of any one-shot, one-platform (emulators aside) digital work.
Granted, there may well be some point in the future where 'War & Peace' i
I'm sure stories are great. (Score:1)
Re:I think the point is missed by a few of you (Score:1)
Tetris?
Pong (Score:1)
Games as good as fiction (Score:1)
Re:Games as good as fiction (Score:2)
Re:Games as good as fiction (Score:2)
Re:Games as good as fiction (Score:1)
Grues, in the FUTURE! (Score:2)
One of the cleverest bits of Infocom's classic (extremely cool) sci-fi adventure Starcross is that, although it takes place a couple of centuries from now in an alien space probe carved out of an asteroid, when you walk into a dark place, you can still get eaten by a grue!
I always wondered, in that game, when you manage to finally turn on the lights in the dark area, what happened to the grues? They vanish entirely from the game.
human experience (Score:1)
I hope not (Score:1)
RTCW showed the possibility... (Score:2)
So, can the game developers make it all the way to "great literature"? Well, let's let the tools mature a bit before we decide. AFAIK, "Oblivion" may have already sho
Re:RTCW showed the possibility... (Score:1)
Game greatness != book greatness (Score:1)
Acutally, you will never find this. If we do get games with the above description, you'll be looking at a big waste of money. First off, most generes of games don't need this. Fighting no, racing, no, puzzle, no, H-games^H^H^H^H^H^H^H other games, no.
Only ones that matter are adventure, RTS, RPG.
RTS can benefit a little, but most of the reknown ones come down to skilled planning and quickness, which sou
Narrative != Gameplay (Score:1)
Either the game makers are telling a story (through an intro, cut-scene, pre-scripted in-game event, etc), or the gamer is making his own story (by interacting with his environment, seeing how items and entities and the environment interact). Either the gamer is sitting passively watching the plot unfold, or he is doing his own thing. The kin
Planescape (Score:1)
Screw "Art" (Score:1)
"Fine. If I say I agree with you that video games can't be art, will you show up, go away, and let me finish making my story?"
One wonders (Score:2)
Re:One wonders (Score:2)
Elaine: That is so true! Although one wonders if "War and Peace" would has been as highly acclaimed as it was if it was published under it's original name "War---What Is It Good For?"
Lippman: What?
Elaine: Yes. Mr. Lippman. It was his mistress who insisted he called it "War and Peace." "War--What Is It Good For."(sang) Absolutely nothin'! (spoken to Testikov)that's the song that they got from Tolstoy.
Games make the player the storyteller (Score:1)
Wrong Question. (Score:2)
Games aren't a narrative art form they are a visual art form. Is narrative unimportant? Well, no, it's not entirely unimportant, much as it wasn't unimportant in Watchmen or Da Vinci's Last Supper. (There's actually a better Last Supper to reference by a less well known Rennaissance artist, b