Linux Instant Messengers 601
mrAshley writes "This article talks specifically about the antiquated state of the even the best Linux instant messenging software, and generally about the need for software developers to be mindful of younger people, as their social attitudes towards software are going to be much more influential in than any moral or financial consideration.
Simply put - People are communal. Don't make a person who wants to use Linux have to leave behind a method or style of communication."
gaim works for me, but loses ground from here (Score:5, Insightful)
I think gaim does a pretty good job, and I've actually converted lots of friends to gaim with no negative after taste. And most love the tabbed interface for multiple conversations in one window. It's nice also to have multiple protocols all available in the one application. My parents now chat with multiple people, in multiple environments, and they're not even aware that's happening. No more splaining that they have to start the yahoo messenger if they want to talk with Uncle Duane.
There's also the huge value add of no advertising.
But, I seem never to be able to upgrade gaim, at least not easily. I always have to do an rpm upgrade with the Force option because of "conflicts" with other gaim packages. And the last couple of new releases of gaim won't even install with "Force".
So, for my money, gaim comes close. Depending on the user, I've found many are okay using gaim.
As for the "state of the union" in Windows, with the recently announced merger of the Yahoo and MSN protocols (as in, freely communicate with each other), it does appear Microsoft is making its move to get closer to their tipping point to dominate the messaging market. They have some interesting features, none that I can't live without, but probably a good draw for the "hip" young crowd. I find most of the described features annoying, but then, I come from the old BSD/Sun "talk" days. Heck I guess I even come from the old Unix "write" days (get out your history books).
Let Microsoft add the fluff. But, a cautionary note, if history serves, what Microsoft is doing has the petina of old tricks. Should they manage to climb to the top and snuff out other IM services the way they've snuffed out other competitors I predict they once again will begin charging for what once was free. Or at least start charging for features that used to be free but have become addictive to their target demographic. (Hey, little girl/boy, want some streaming video with your chat?)
TNG (Score:3, Insightful)
Perhaps some of the younger people need to become software developers. This is not meant to be a RTFM comment, just an observation that the OSS community might need to step up its PR with the younger generation. It was nice to see many high school age kids at the BLUG [bloomingtonlinux.org] meeting last night, but I think we could do more to encourage them.
Form over function? (Score:3, Insightful)
If you go and bloat it up, for the love of God, be sure to leave an options dialog to disable all the crud so I don't have to be beaten with it.
hey, what spin! (Score:3, Insightful)
An no, I'm not just talking about how pretty Trillian is compared to GAIM, either. Socialbility as a value has a lot to do with smart UI design fetures, too. Smart preferences, drag and drop, ease of use, and integration of features with other web activity would all help IM's that want to "make it". And yes, GAIM needs a new name. Or spelling.
Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here (Score:2, Insightful)
(read parent)
Now, why do you think it's probably an example? "Cyborg Warrior" probably wont figure it out.
Havent read TFA... (Score:3, Insightful)
This about the point 3 (How can some computer-noob user Engage in a multimedia chat with some friend (micrphone+webcam+text). There is really no application in the open source windows that has all the functionality that MSN Messenger has this is, to be able to talk, chat and see video when having a conference with other people.
Some of the answers I got from my previous post stated a set of programs that you could use to get a (more or less useful) similar result. But, the end user will not want that. For them, MSN messenger allows them to do all that with some clicks, while on Linux it would require some RPMing and running 3 applications.
The other more important thing (and I know... it is not the OSS fault) is the compatibility. See, ALL my contacts use MSN Messenger (all in Mexico), none of them use AOL or ICQ or whatever OSS, so I have to use a MSN compatible client.
Now, everything could be nice with GAIM, except that it does not support video and audio, and I while I am in UK I love staying in contact with people over there, and why not spending a sunday night chating with friends and having a video conference with my girlfriend (yes, I have a girlfriend, no, not *those* kind of video conference
But, all in all, someone posted on the Y!MSN merging that there are like 3 propietary messenger programs, I dont know if AOL msnger supports audio and video or the others, but I do know it is something that my vanilla Linux distro is lacking of. [now go ahead and blame Microsoft for not releasing a version of MSN Messenger for Linux... (I already do it!!!)]
Overlooked something (Score:3, Insightful)
So, young people are concerned with Gaim having a fugly UI. Well, what, precicely, is stopping people from writing an attractive looking skin for Gaim? And if it doesn't support skinning, why hasn't anyone written skinning support into Gaim yet?
Hell, if I knew C, and any particular artistic talent, I'd do it.Trillian Should Really Consider Cross-Platform (Score:2, Insightful)
Why not go cross platform? Trillian would be great if one was able to us it on Linux, OSX, etc. natively (I've used it under WINE without issue but that's more work than any regular user would want to go through.) The fact of the matter is that a majority of IM junkies are still not willing to throw away AIM, MSN, Yahoo!, etc. for Trillian on Windows, but it'd surely be a very nice solution for a Linux user. Of course most of their customers would still be under Windows, and one might argue the development costs to go cross platform would not justify the potential customers on these platforms, but seriously a nice IM solution is _so_ needed under Linux. I think the need is greater than they might realize.
Re:Standardized (Score:3, Insightful)
In general though most "linux tools" [which are usually GNU or OSS tools] are written by users not commercial vendors. They write something as pretty as they need it.
Users expect flashy bullshit because they've been told that that's innovative and "Advanced" and anything else is inferior. This is just like modern gaming. Some games which look really cool *cough* *cough* doom3 *cough* *cough* turn out to be really crappy whereas games like
Imagine that.
Tom
Re:Standardized (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course it's trying to look like the rest of the linux desktop, it uses the same widget set! Sure, you can use one of the High Contrast themes or Simple or somesuch, and Gaim is going to look ugly that way because that's what you've chosen it to look like.
Completely different widget sets (MSN Messenger, WMP, Office, usual win32) on the screen at the same time? That is ugly.
What a load of FUD (Score:3, Insightful)
The only Windows IM client that is worth consideration is Trillian Pro. And other client either has no good features, or is loaded with ads, or both. The state of IM on Windows sucks just as much as everywhere else... Unless you're on a Mac, but that's another story.
The article misses the point (Score:5, Insightful)
Instant: adj.
1. Occurring at once; immediate:
Messaging: tr,
1. To send a message to.
It's not instant video chatting, instant flash advertisements, instant voice communications. They are messages. At this Gaim and Kopete work very well indeed. I don't even use the standard MSN, Yahoo, and AIM clients on my WinXP box. It's Gaim and it does everything at once. As far as aesthetics go, Gaim is about as lovely as anything else. Kopete looks as great as you can make KDE look (which is pretty damn good.) In fact, I occasionally turn on the color cycling plugin on Kopete and get lots of positive comments and folks wish they could do that with their clients (just move to Linux!).
The only spot where I think the author is possibly on-topic is file transfers. More often than not though, this is a function of network firewalls and port forwarding. If there was a mode where Gaim/Kopete could self discover an outside IP address and use UPnP port requests, then I'm sure it'd work phenomenally in our household.
Adium X (Score:5, Insightful)
Some are missing the point.. (Score:2, Insightful)
He is essentially saying 'I am the same as any other Linux zealot, however I am magnanimous enough to recognise that I am not the youth of today, and that my needs, justifiable as they are, are not the same as Da Yoof.' Thus, the eye-candy in MSN, he suggests, is not to his tastes but 'they' like it and 'they' are the next generation of potential Linux users.
So comments defending GAIM are either missing the point of the author, or are seriously in denial. Some prat pitches in to say 'well GAIM is patched quicker than Trillian' and another prick says 'I'll take the simplicity of GAIM'. While I'm sure he and his other online contact are happy with spartan interfaces which, truly, have not evolved since 2000, I'm more than happy with MSN. Even though I can't see the source code. Even though everything goes through MSN's servers, centrally.
Here in the UK, it is MSN which is the dominant IM app in my world. I use it, and I quite get off on the fact that plenty of other, much more normal people use it, and that plenty in the
Re:Younger people ? (Score:5, Insightful)
Linux users are doing just fine, and the last thing we need is for Linux to be more like Windows.
Excuse me, but that's just plain ignorance. I know of a hell lot of people who really hate windows and would love to switch over to Linux, but it's the little things like these that hold them back. They try to use all kind of thingies over MSN with me, including webcam conversations, but it simply doesn't work for them. Then they're like "oh, yeah, Linux, right?".... and it's things like that that hold them back. Sure, it's not the only thing, but it's the picture as a whole that we draw about the user experience under Linux... sure, it's nice, fonts are prettier (in the opinions of many), but that just doesn't do it...
Re:YOU ARE MISSING ALOT !!! (Score:3, Insightful)
Antiquated Ideals with Linux as a Community (Score:3, Insightful)
Linux is a wonderful, efficient, relatively secure operating system, but damned, the UI is fugly on almost every distro. Even the "perdy" distros have UI deficiencies.
Why does this matter? It works, it's functional, right?
Short Answer... Yes... Long Answer... No.
In the ideal Linux world, everyone has discard MS Windows, and they are strictly using open source software... There is no concern over quality of software, no concern over usability, and no concern over closed protocols, software, and formats.
That's not the case. Most of the world uses Windows, and that's just the way it is. Windows does offer something that Linux doesn't offer in that sense... a relatively consistent (*sigh*) user interface, a relatively attractive (*sigh*) visual style, and relatively easy-to-manage (*sigh*) suite of software.
Point is, how do you tell an inexperienced Linux user to install a different visual style?
How do you tell an inexperienced Linux user to install new hardware (think something without pre-compiled Linux compatible drivers)?
How do you tell an inexperienced Linux user to do most every day things?
I'm sure I'll get flamed for this comment, but I have used Windows, OS X, and Linux. Plain and simple Linux is not the easiest to learn from a new user standpoint.
Sure, I'll hear the argument that once you learn, you'll be fine. Explain that to the old persons in my family who don't want to learn. Explain that to the young persons in my family who don't understand why they should learn Linux.
I am not trying to say the Linux needs to copy every Windows / OS X feature or functionality, in fact I'm quite opposed to this. Linux has a powerful kernel that's being underutilized by a copycat interface.
Why do the creative minds of the Linux community insist on duplicating Windows. Linux != Windows. Create a new interface. Move into a different direction that what we know now. Here's a novel idea. Forge a new, easier, more efficient way to use a computer.
Of course, the underlying principle is still this... GAIM is not MSN. GAIM is merely trying to duplicate how classic MSN/AOL/Y! looked and felt. It's been done. Move on.
I'm not saying that GAIM needs to recreate the annoying Screen Shake or whatever it's called. I'm not saying GAIM needs to recreate MSN/AIM/Y!/ICQ/Google Talk/etc. Do something original with it. Give me a compelling reason to use it. Give me an application that's not bloated (*coTRILLIANugh*). Give me something more intuitive (*coADIUMugh*) but unique (*coDOESN'TEXISTugh*).
The Linux community as a whole is stuck in this antiquated mindset. Let's move on. It's time to change. Linux doesn't need to be just for elite, make it available and usable (keyword) to the masses.
But, what do I know?
Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Overlooked something (Score:3, Insightful)
"Hell, if I knew C, and any particular artistic talent, I'd do it."
The people who want that spend all their time being cool, while those of us who just want stuff to work are busy learning C, Perl, etc, etc, etc. The people who can change it, don't care because they are to busy doing other things.
I'm not trying to rag on you or anyone that isn't a programmer. However, everyone should realize that the VOLANTEERS that wrote gaim didn't nessisarly do it to make it exactly like MSN or Yahoo. They did it so that people using linux/bsd/solaris for whatever reason could talk to the rest of the world. In fact, I'd guess most of the people responsible are experts at reverse engineering protocols which means flashing UIs are almost irrelivant to them.
Once they succeeded in making Gaim talk to all the various IM systems, the project was no longer interesting. They are interested in protocol work, not UI.
Gaim would be a playground for someone that wants to build a cool UI because there is a huge audiance. But, PLEASE (as others have asked) put one button that says: "Turn off all eye-candy crap" and make sure it works.
This is why Linux isn't more popular.... (Score:1, Insightful)
This is exactly why Linux is not a real threat to Windows. With Windows, you can download an installation file and know it'll install on any Windows box without any problem. With Linux, you get all sorts of package dependency crap that is simply unacceptable to real users. A typical installation of damn near anything on Linux goes something like this:
Ok... installing. Whoops! Need library Zippidy-doo-dah version 2.4.032.xgp.201. Okay, hmmm, where do I find that on the internet... Okay, there... installing this now.... Whoops! Zippidy-doo-dah version 2.4.032.xgp.201 requires Libiddy_Dibbity_Doo.lib version 12.824... okay... where do I find this on the internet...Hmmm... Okay, got it... installing.... Whoops! Libiddy_Dibbity_Doo.lib version 12.824 requires Bippy_Skippy.lib version 9.29.29399382721! Damn it... wheredo I find this on the internet... hmmm... huh.... hmmm..... Crap! I can't find it.
and etc., etc., etc.,
Really, until the entire packaging mayhem is sorted out, Linux will remain second-rate as a desktop gui-os. Oh, but try Distribution SuperDooper2000 you say... well, great, if all you do is run apps that come pre-installed and never change anything, add programs, etc., but really, how realistic is that? It's not. Linux needs a real, working, practical application structure.
Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here (Score:4, Insightful)
FUD. Something is probably screwed up with his machine. RPMs work just fine when used with tools like yum or apt-get and with reliable/well-maintained package repositories. Gaim updates fine on my Fedora Core 4 machine, for example. Other package formats aren't some magic bullet that will prevent bugs, misconfigured repositories, dependencies errors, buggy repositories, package errors, etc, from causing you problems.
Kopete has a bad UI? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here (Score:3, Insightful)
You put Cygwin in your Windows PATH right?
And if somebody had pointed that out to him he might have stayed with GAIM. He was making the observation about the RTFM and political attitude of certain people in the OSS World being highly unhelpful.
And I totally agree with him.
Re:Wrong... This is why open source is so great! (Score:3, Insightful)
Umm, whenever I used a windows installer, it works, period. I've NEVER encountered a windows installer that didn't work. Ever. The program might suck, but it installs and novices knows predictably WHERE it installed as well (and without using "whereis" commands).
I am a Linux user...but I don't think anyone can argue that installing packages that are not in your sources list is easier than downloading and doubleclicking on a "install.exe" file in windows. But I DO enjoy your point about shell scripts that can do it all for you (which is really what windows installers are). It would make alot of sense if linux programs could simply be downloaded to desktop, doubleclicked on, ask for your sudo password, then go the the install motions AUTOMATICALLY detecting your disto, configuration, etc...and possibly asking if you'd like a shortcut installed to your app menu, if you want to make it the default program for a particular set of filetypes and so on...just like windows installers do. Linux can learn alot from windows when it comes to installation ease, and obviously in turn, windows can learn from linux when it concerns security (and making sure users really know what they are installing).
Until Linux packages are as easy to install as install.exe's, Linux loses big time in that respect. There's no debate there. I argue that it is THIS problem alone that really holds linux back from the big time, not instant messengers. If instant messengers were easy to install (and worked without odd hacks and forum digging), they would improve exponentially because their audience would have increased expontially as well to justify the extra development.
Linux is headed in the right direction...but the persistant folly of installation and upgrading woes is heavy plow holding it back.
IM != IM-sp33k. (Score:4, Insightful)
The coordinators do ask us "did u get the tkt?" and "can u review?", though. And I thought people only talked like that in school.
Re:Wrong... This is why open source is so great! (Score:3, Insightful)
They do have all the packages you might want.
If you find yourself searching for new software not in your sources list, you picked the wrong distribution. I would pick Ubuntu for new users. Plus they have a great spanish-speaking community, which is a plus if I don't want to give lots of hours of support.
Re:This is why Linux isn't more popular.... (Score:2, Insightful)
Hardly, unless the winbox is totally unsecured, as most are out of the box, unfortunately - and that's why spyware/worms/viruses run so rampant. If the winbox has been setup for security, having seperate user/admin accounts (as should be the case) it's:
Find and download $PROGRAM to install
Damn, it's in "compressed" format
Go find $DECOMPRESSOR and download
Scan $DECOMPRESSOR for viruses
Install $DECOMPRESSOR
Crap, I'm not admin
Log in as admin
Install $DECOMPRESSOR
Reboot
Log in
Scan $PROGRAM for viruses
Decompress $PROGRAM
Doubleclick exe/msi installer
Crap, I'm not admin
Log in as admin
Doubleclick exe/msi installer
Click "Next" to continue
Accept 27 page EULA
Click "Next" to continue
Confirm "install type", full/minimal/custom
Click "Next" to continue
Confirm/alter install path
Click "Next" to continue
Do you want a program group created? y/n
Click "Next" to continue
Do you want a desktop icon created? y/n
Click "Next" to continue
Watch progress bar...
Click "Next" to continue
Do you want to read the README.txt now? y/n
Click "Next" to continue
Do you want to create a desktop shortcut? y/n
Click "Next" to continue
Do you want to run the internet updater? y/n
If Y, click "Next" to continue to repeat previous instructions, if N, then click "Next" to continue
$PROGRAM has been installed to $PATHBLAHBLAH, please register, would you like to do so now? y/n
Click "Next" to continue
Installation complete, Click "Exit" to finish
You must reboot for changes to take effect, do you want to reboot now? Reboot/Cancel
Reboot
Log in
Click on desktop icon that was created even though 'No' was answered for that question
Use $PROGRAM
So that's less difficult than:
Click on the menu
Synaptic [insert yast, urmpi, whatever]
Enter root pass
Find $PROGRAM
Install $PROGRAM
Close Synaptic
Use $PROGRAM
Um... ok.
Re: Sweeping Generalizations Solve Most Problems (Score:2, Insightful)
With Windows, you can download an installation file and know it'll install on any Windows box without any problem.
That has got to be -the- most innacurate generalization I've heard about Windows in a long time. I can't be the only one with horror stories.
With Linux, you get all sorts of package dependency crap
If you attempt to install joe-shmoe's downloaded package of software not included in a stable distro repository, then you are asking for dependency issues. The same is true of windows freeware downloaded from joe-shmoe's site too. Please do the following:
1. Install a popular distro
2. Don't fsck with the repository url's
3. enjoy
Packaging mayhem indeed... Mayhem is roughly defined as willfully maiming or crippling. Which is exactly what your post is to Linux.
Re:The article is SPOT ON (Score:3, Insightful)
I just converted my neighbors 3 PCs over to Linux (Linspire) after two were totally trashed by spyware, virii and worms. He didn't give a damn about anything else other than: web browsing, e-mail, can open Word/Excel document (OpenOffice did it fine), and Java/Flash/PDF. Everything else -- EVERYTHING -- was available to axe. If it worked, fine. If not, it was expendable.
It worked great. His kids (teenagers) use one of the PCs for chat (MSN), browsing and homework. They burn some CDs (K3B), play MP3s and videos (Amarok & Kaffeine) and do the stuff most kids do with a PC (Firefox, GAIM & OpenOffice). Their ONLY complaint was MSN video chat was missing from GAIM. Everything else they had no issues with -- just a couple days learning curve as to the differences.
They all live on IM, just like my kids. File transfers on GAIM are a problem if you're behind NAT; setting AOL buddy icons is a pain (can't use aim:// -- maybe I can figure this out...); can't do video or voice chat. Well, they can use PhoneGAIM with their friends that have a SIP client, which is a few.
IM *IS* video chat, file transfer, buddy icons and all that other cutesy crap.
-Charles
Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here (Score:3, Insightful)
That's not what the article is arguing at all.
Re:What about voice ? (Score:4, Insightful)
IMO, that's how it should have been done from the outset.
Veering back toward the the response of so many posters, both here and in the comments for TFA, gaim is pretty good at the basics (better than either AOL's or Yahoo's official clients) and IMO isn't ugly, either. Kopete looks nicer/more Mac-like, but some of its functionality is goofy. I love KDE but use gaim for my IM b/c I just can't stand Kopete.
The trouble is, the basics aren't enough. The main point of TFA, really, is "Where's the voice and webcam support?" This is a major stumbling block in open-source IM, and it doesn't affect just young people. I'm in my early forties and Linux has been my exclusive desktop OS for over five years. My wife is in her thirties and would also be a Linux user except for one thing: Yahoo Messenger, and specifically the voice/video features, is her number one app (ahead of even email) for keeping in touch with her family and friends overseas. Any platform that doesn't support that doesn't work for her, and that's why we have a Win2K box (Yahoo Messenger on Mac doesn't support voice, either, or I'd buy her a Mac).
It's all about the applications for a lot of people, and IM is the only area that immediately comes to mind where there is really a huge gap between capabilities of open-source clients versus proprietary ones. People can point to gaim-vv or to gyach-e (Eeeeeeuuuuuuw! Have you ever looked at the source code for that?! I feel the nausea coming on again just from thinking about it. I and one of my staff members tried for three days to get it to build, without success; eventually I ran a binary RPM through alien), but both of those projects are really in their infancy WRT both functionality and reliability. I've tried both and eventually concluded that I was better off just living without those features until they are more stable (they have cute little tricks like making a 2.5 GHz P4 with a gig or RAM go to 100% CPU utilization and stay there when receiving video. This happened multiple times and my only out was to kill X; charming).
Need a good office suite? OSS has you covered. Browser? Take your pick. The only proprietary browser that's as good as the OSS offerings is Opera, and it also runs on Linux. Email? Same situation? Groupware? Maybe a little rough around the edges, but we're basically there. Security tools? The list is long but distinguished. SQL databases? PostgresQL and MySQL are two of the most popular in the world, take your pick. Development tools? There are probably more OSS tools than proprietary ones available these days, and whether you prefer vi, (X)emacs, or a full-blown IDE, OSS has something for you. This list could go on and on, but I think you all get the point.
However, turn to IM, and OSS is years behind the times. The author of TFA had it right. I know none of us really like hearing that there's something OSS doesn't do as well as proprietary software, and we especially don't like hearing that proprietary is kicking our asses in some area, but sometimes it's true. This is one of those times.
Having a world-class IM, with voice, video, etc., is crucial for OSS at this juncture. I hope people who are working on major OSS IM clients like gaim or Kopete are reading this thread and also read TFA and realize how important this is.
And yes, I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. If what is needed is to pay gaim developers to get this done in a reasonable time frame, I will donate 50 bucks, which is more than I've spent on software in years. I hope everyone else who wants advanced voice and video features in OSS IM will also be willing to pony up whatever they can afford to get the job done.
Strongly disagree (Score:3, Insightful)
Hmmm.... 1) Users hate Windows. 2) Users don't move to Linux because it is not enough like Windows. I fail to see how one leads to the other except that many users have a love-hate relationship with Windows. They hate it but they are afraid of anything else. Therefore they will keep the evil they know instead of moving to the unknown. YOU CANNOT WIN WITH THIS CROWD SO STOP TRYING.
Linux is different. We should be saying "This is different. It is as different from Windows as a Mac is. Yes there are similar user interface guidelines, but the underlying technology and ideas are different."
They try to use all kind of thingies over MSN with me, including webcam conversations, but it simply doesn't work for them.
Web cam conversations are possible using other means. And if you are stuck with MSN, I would suggest waiting until this is available. It is not that we need this to succeed, but that we need this to meet a particular person's need. These are not the same statements.
Sure, it's not the only thing, but it's the picture as a whole that we draw about the user experience under Linux... sure, it's nice, fonts are prettier (in the opinions of many), but that just doesn't do it...
IMO, people are *way* too concerned about eye candy. We need to be concerned about usability and functionality. Hint: Most people want their computers to "just work" as tools and help them get a specific job done. By focusing on getting these jobs done better than Windows, and making things "just work" which IMO it already does in the vast majority of cases better than Windows already, then Linux will succeed.
Here is a hint. Unlike Microsoft, our success is not driven by flashy feature comparison cards handed out by the Marketing Department. Instead, our success is based on getting a specific job done and having that customer recommend Linux to the next guy. This is what we need to do to "succeed." No, Linux is not perfect, and there are many areas such as interoperability where progress will be made, but this is not a feature checklist. It is a general goal of interoperability and functionality.
Again, the goal isn;t to be like Windows. It is to get specific jobs done *better* than Windows.
One hyphanated word. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:This is why Linux isn't more popular.... (Score:3, Insightful)
generally, there are two methods that the "executable installer" model uses to deal with library dependencies: 1) the library's already there? just overwrite it, we're the only app in the universe! or 2) just stuff it all in a directory somewhere. we'll keep our own private copy of every library -- nothing says "security" like 90 slightly different copies of zlib!
people who are still talking about "RPM dependency hell" or "featureless Gaim" are living 2 years in the past. if they don't like Linux... fine, don't use it. but don't bother me with a bunch of stories from 30 versions ago about how you couldn't get it working.
Re:Younger people ? (Score:2, Insightful)
It doesn't apply anymore. aMSN, which has a pretty much MSN Messenger-like interface in it's latest CVS build has webcam conversations, audio conversations, a decent plugin platform.
And on top of that they've added in even more stuff MSN doesn't have, which is pretty much a standard for aMSN, beating even MSN Plus perks. Best example I can give you this round is that you can set up aMSN to automatically record all webcam conversations, and view them just like your chat history. That's something I am sure you will never see Microsoft doing.
Re:The article misses the point (Score:1, Insightful)
I have been pained with the crappiness (even non-existence) of video messaging capabilities in linux (Gaim ? Duh ! forget it) I work with my friend overseas on problems that require communicating fairly heavy mathematical formulae, both of us were "brought up on" linux, but we are forced to switch to windoze when we talk, because its simply easier (and far more efficient) to write stuff on a whiteboard. Its time linux had better instant messengers.
Re:This is why Linux isn't more popular.... (Score:3, Insightful)
That's rich man.
Oh and I NEVER have the problems you are talking about, maybe that's because I use ubuntu instead of rolling my own distribution like you did. People like you and beginners should never roll their own distributions, there are lots of distros out there with great package management.
it's all about the emoticons (Score:2, Insightful)
Other people complained that gaim wasn't intuitive. Some complained that trillian looks better (I personally think that trillian resembles win32 crap nagware and think the ui is ugly, but to each her own).
Anyway, it's hard to make end users happy when you're a developer. People who can get free-as-in-beer im clients for win32 from yahoo and aol will only switch to FOSS IM clients if the latter absolutely blow the freeware versions out of the water.
It's like firefox and IE. IE already comes with windows. People aren't paying for it anyway. Sure, you can convince some people that IE will give them spyware, but for most people they don't care that firefox is better -- IE works ok. However, when the barista at my local coffee shop asked me if, as an IT guy, I could hook her up with a pirated version of MS Office and I told her to use OO 2.0 RC2 instead because it's quite good and free in every way, she got really excited and has been using it ever since.
You're a bit right and a whole lotta wrong (Score:3, Insightful)
POP access to hotmail is the only one that comes to mind, so you're right in saying that MS doesn't use that strategy to gouge consumers in its normal course of business.
Operating Systems, nope, they never were free (though the service packs and updates have always been free)
True, but as time has gone (and competition disappeared) the price of a MS OS has gone up substantially--especially in relation to the cost of the hardware on which it runs. You also seem to suggest that MS is being generous in giving away updates and service packs. IMHO, if MS didn't give them away they already they should be forced to as they correct product defects. Ford was forced to rectify the design flaws in their Pinto so why would MS be off the hook?
IE, nope, free (at least until the government intercedes on our behalf and makes us buy it)
No court in the world has instructed MS to charge extra for IE or WMP. The issue was *bundling*--not only including the apps with the OS but also purposefully INTEGRATING them into the OS to the point that they cannot be removed or replaced--encouraging application developers to treat what should've been applications as "system componenets" and building dependencies on them into everything. This is bad on two levels--from a technical standpoint it creates a monolithic architecture which is a major factor in the weak security of Windows. From an economic standpoint it shuts out competition and creates a captive market--even if you install Firefox on Windows you cannot remove IE--you need it for Windows Update and for a number of apps to work. That is NONSENSE--such things shouldn't depend on IE.
Office, nope, never was free - though the price has DROPPED significantly as competition has disappeared
The price of Office did not drop because of the lack of competition. The price of office dropped BECAUSE of LOWER-PRICED competition. OpenOffice can be obtained at no cost--that's a pretty low price. Even more crucially, the biggest competition for MS Office is...the previous version of MS Office. After all, settling with what you already have 'cause it works well enough is ust as free (monetarily) as OpenOffice.
There MUST BE at least one example! I mean, after all, it's "common knowledge" that this is a predatory Microsoft practice.
Well, I already gave such an example in MSN Hotmail--some services that were free now costs money. I do not think this was done as a "predatory practise" however. The "predatory practise" that MS HAS done is the opposite--they release a product for sale, then start giving it away, then start bundling it. This is what they did with IE--first it wasn't even included on the Windows setup CD and you had to buy a "plus pack" to get it. Then they started giving it away as a download (which was slow) for a short time until it appeared in the Windows 95 "A" release. To that point they were just being aggressive--after that their actions became predatory and monopolistic. By the time NT4 and the "B" version of 95 were in wide use MS had turned IE into a "component" of the OS on which much of its own software (and a number of third party titles) depended.
It isn't actually the fact MS gives away some software that makes it predatory--even if they were to later start charging for it. What hurts the industry and consumers is the way they use their pricing strategy *AND* their platform architecture to LOCK IN users, often at the expanse of security and stability.
Re:Overlooked something (Score:3, Insightful)
From the Gaim page on skins: skins create a support nightmare. And: Were we to write our own mechanism, we would be adding overhead in both the run time and the time necessary to debug.
Yeah, you're right: they are just too lazy to implement this. It would be far better if the developers would spend more time on writing a skin interface and spend more time with support than to write useful new features or keep track of protocol changes which shut out their userbase from MSN and the likes.
Seriously, many other programs have skin support, and I hardly ever change skins on any of those. With the theming on Qt/KDE and GTK/GNOME I can get more than enough eye candy. The skin for XMMS with the best color contrast for fonts and widgets is the default one. Most Firefox/Thunderbird themes don't support the extensions I use. Changing the look of MPlayer was funny to me for 5 minutes.
Thanks to the Gaim folks to focus on more important stuff. If you want skins, stay with Trillian and Windows. I only want to be able to chat, so I stay with Gaim and Linux.
Re:Antiquated Ideals with Linux as a Community (Score:2, Insightful)
I disagree with this, and I really have a hard time understanding why articles like this think the focus should be on attracting users. Whatever happened to the grand old idea of scratching an itch? It's MY itch damnit. If other people like the software so be it, but an author shouldn't change his vision of what he wants his app to be because some teeny bopper windows kiddie demands he does.
I am of the belief that windows is the way it is because of its users. Masses of willfully ignorant people demanding all the wrong things from a company that must cater to them. Part of the beauty of OSS is we can ignore these idiots, tell them to keep using windows, and to leave us alone. Linux is an OS made by geeks for geeks.... lets keep it that way. Thanks.
Best? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:gaim works for me, but loses ground from here (Score:2, Insightful)
All grandma has to do on Mandriva is software->configuration->packaging->Install Software, type GAIM and click install. Ubuntu, Suse, Linspire etc. all have similar Install systems that are just as easy.
No worse than trying to get her to goto gaim.sf.net, find and download the 'Windows Installer', find where she downloaded it, double-click it, click next, agree to this, choose an install location, choose optional components etc.
The good thing about the Linux was is when she runs the update program next (or turns on automatic updates) she will get the latest Gaim, or at least the backported update to fix that latest security hole they found in it, along with all the other programs installed on her machine.
Well.. (Score:3, Insightful)
Firstly, most Linux systems are behind an iptables firewall. This has to be poked and prodded or have iptables connection/NAT helper modules in order to let most video/audio into the computer. Text-based messaging works perfectly without any extra config. More and more systems are behind NAT's, because of the advent of broadband and broadband routers (especially popular now that they include wireless).
Being behind a NAT can stop quite a lot of this stuff working unless you want to start editing your settings (way beyond the average computer user). Programs like Skype etc. help in that they automatically traverse NAT without any sort of help but things like MSN Messenger can be a pain in the backside. Yes, some routers will support UPnP but let's not even start on the troubles that is likely to cause.
It then becomes a question, not of why doesn't the IM program do it but of why is it made so damn difficult for the program authors? If it wasn't for closed-source and sometimes closed-spec systems using all different protocols that change constantly, drastically and without warning, expecting connections over all different ports with IP embedded in all sorts of packets, not being able to navigate NAT without some security disaster like UPnP (which has little support in any system other than Microsoft's) and being used less and less in favour of protocols that "just work".
I've never used video over the internet. It's slow, clunky, bandwidth-hogging, a pain to configure, doesn't NAT very well if at all, needs extra hardware and has all the advantages of a videophone, i.e. none. This is why videophones haven't sold well either, despite being around for many years. Voice is a slightly different issue and can be quite useful and popular (a friend I know uses Skype to phone her dad who lives across the road and my girlfriend is interested in using it to talk to her dad in Kuwait.)
I mentioned to my girlfriend the possibility of over-the-net communication and she was very keen (currently 70p / minute to phone Kuwait from the UK) but has absolutely no interest whatsoever in video, neither has her computer-illiterate father who would have to set up all sorts of stuff (including getting broadband in a foreign country) in order to get video working, whereas a microphone and a volume setting is well within his knowledge.
I can't imagine that, as a percentage, many people at all use video. A few more probably use voice but I should imagine (at a complete guess), 95% or more (by connection, not by bandwidth) of IM is pure text. I work in schools and text works over the school networks, voice and video do not. The kids only ever use MSN as text because even at home they can't be bothered to get video working when text needs no configuration. One or two have played with voice but so many of their friends are text-only too that nobody uses it on a day-to-day basis (videophone syndrome again).
In fact, the only place most teenagers would use voice comms would be inside their games, counterstrike etc., where again it "just works". How many of them use those games on Linux? Zilch. How many people who use Linux would actually use video - only a few and them be geeks who know how to get stuff wokring anyway. How many would use voice? Maybe a few more. In the end, though, Linux isn't mainstream and Linux IM's are constantly playing catchup through no fault of their own.
There's no point having Linux voice/video IM (an awful lot of development work just to get the tiniest of results) until some standards are adopted by everyone and stablised, there are mechanisms in place to help the packets traverse properly, ordinary people actually start using Linux on the desktop and they start demanding it.