The Wireless City 268
bigfatlamer writes "This week's NY Times City Section has an article (FRRYYY) on wireless access in New York City's busiest park, Bryant Park. The director of the park has installed a free 802.11b network with complete coverage of the park with help from NYC Wireless. From the article: 'With some clever engineering and hardware from Cisco Systems and Intel, the wireless park was born. Just as park users could sit wherever they liked, so too could they gain access where they liked. The eight-megabytes-per-second connection was as free as the sunshine and the green grass.' NYC Wireless is currently working with the Parks Dept. to put similar networks in Madison Square and Tompkins Square Parks. If they could do Prospect Park (3 blocks from my house) life would be perfect." NYCwireless helps those who help themselves...
IN SOVIET RUSSIA (Score:2, Funny)
Re:IN SOVIET RUSSIA (Score:2, Funny)
Re:IN SOVIET RUSSIA (Score:3, Insightful)
I find it funny, in a sad way, when dorks get so immersed in "their" internet world that they don't realize:
a. not everyone may have heard a joke yet, and 2 months isn't very long.
b. not everyone knows about these ultra-cool websites that they visit
c. referring to a website by a slang term gives you no idea what they are talking about. (what is "the shack"?) But I guess that means that they are cool and I am not.
d. they think they are the coolest, because they perceive themselves to be on the cutting edge.
It is bad when nerds give nerds a bad name.
Well, 5 people seem to have dissagreed. (Score:2)
yup (Score:5, Funny)
Unacountable bits? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Unacountable bits? (Score:2, Interesting)
I doubt they want warez kids sitting in the park to download their gamez on the fat wireless pipe, either.
Re:Unacountable bits? (Score:5, Insightful)
Perhaps a traffic shaper would be usefull as well to keep one node from eating up all of the bandwidth.
The problem with a free service like this is that it will be free up until the point where someone abuses it.
Re:Unacountable bits? (Score:2)
I also have a dream that there will be IPv6 to support such a grandiose network.
As for security, in those years, thing will be 'much more secure'... like only some slight fraction of the servers today are.
I also see that you will not need to propagate your email address for doing usefull things (like registration to porn sites, or mega-corporations who think they own you)... like some of us are already doing today.
Ahhh..... it's just a dream.
Re:Unacountable bits? (Score:3, Informative)
node faq [nycwireless.net]
Is it secure? No! Wireless Ethernet is insecure by default. Any user on the Wireless Local Area Network (WLAN) can spy on unencrypted traffic from other wireless users. Wired connections are generally more secure when communicating with other servers. Users are advised to use SSL to connect to web pages and mail hosts, SSH instead of telnet whenever possible, and VPNs (virtual private networks) for all other data to ensure privacy and security. You may see literature saying that the 802.11b standard includes provisions for optional 40- or 128-bit link-level encryption over the air, however, current implementations require the encryption key to be shared by all users of the wireless LAN, effectively eliminating the usefulness of this security feature in an open network environment.
Also fyi: How to find access [nycwireless.net]
Always this argument... (Score:5, Insightful)
Some would liken IP connectivity to a printing press, and argue the company providing the press must watch each item printed against copyrighted, subversive, or pornographic works. Others would argue it is like electricity, a utility that is provided fairly cheaply after the initial wiring is installed, and need not be charged for at all for small amounts. The few who see it as a wilderness, full of abuse and crime and desparados checking for weakness tend to sell computer security services.
Re:Always this argument... (Score:5, Insightful)
You've never had your email address harvested by a spammer, have you? Through a security flaw in my University's content sharing arrangement with another university, many many email addresses were harvested and spammed bigtime. The dramatic increase in mail volume caused problems for our mail servers...nothing that the IT folks couldn't handle but it was a problem.
That kind of thing is the simplest example of abuse of the internet.
The notion that the internet isn't actually an insecure, unsafe network that should, by its very nature be "untrusted" unless secured is a dangerous one. Just because you haven't had a problem yet doesn't mean that you won't.
A free wireless connection to the internet means that someone with a laptop could sit out there and gerate millions of spams and never be traced back to anything more than a (likely spoofed) MAC address. The only way to stop that from happening is through thoughtful design and good network practices. IMHO, that includes exgress filtering on the network to prevent excessive spam...
Not an IT security sales guy, -tcp
Re:Always this argument... (Score:2, Insightful)
Until the law views it the same way you do, it would be prudent to try.
Re:Always this argument... (Score:4, Insightful)
If your network was broken into and someone did these things without your knowledge, you certainly can't be held liable for his acts. If you ran your network responsibly, you can't even be called negeligent.
But when you open up your wireless LAN and let any and every Joe get Internet access through your network, and you deliberately make no effort to authenticate or gather sufficient information to a) track down abusers; or b) prevent abuse, one might suggest that you are acting as an accessory to whatever crimes are committed through your network.
It's possible, though, that if this is going to be treated like any other public utility, that the city is going to be OK with the fact that they'll just need to track these users down in real-time, by triangulating positions and using surveillance cameras, though.
And keep in mind that this is just the legal end of things. Generally when any customer signs a contract with a network provider, that contract includes bits about the customer not violating the ISP's terms of service, etc., etc. It isn't too far-fetched to assume that the city is subject to one or more ISPs' terms of use, and that they'll have to enforce those same terms on the general public that uses these public networks. If they are unable to reliably do so, the hosting ISP could be perfectly justified in enforcing penalties in the contract, perhaps including disconnection of service.
There's no reason to assume that just because it's a "city" doing this that they'll be exempt from having to honor an ISP's terms of service. But who knows? Maybe they're expecting to be large enough that they won't consider themselves customers of ISP's so much as peers...
Re:Always this argument... (Score:2)
Think of liability as a hot potato. You better not accept it, unless you know who you're going to pass it to. If you fail in this, then you are the one who will end up holding it. A common carrier always has someone to point to. Do you?
Re:Unacountable bits? (Score:2)
What logical restrictions should be put on a public WiFi center so that the majority of good people can enjoy the system while the small number of people who would do the Internet harm are foiled?
A big sticker which says "use at your own risk."
C'mon, if you don't want anonymous users connecting to your system, put access controls on it.
Re:Unacountable bits? (Score:2, Funny)
The net is infrastructure... (Score:4, Insightful)
--v.
Re:The net is infrastructure... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:The net is infrastructure... (Score:2)
Re:The net is infrastructure... (Score:2)
Re:The net is infrastructure... (Score:2)
Re:The net is infrastructure... (Score:2, Insightful)
Time to accept that change happens. When we were growing up there was no net but we had phones. When out parents grew up there was no phone but they had electricity. When their parents grew up there was no electricity.... You get the point. It took many years to get my dad to use a touch-tone phone, but eventually he did.
Re:The net is infrastructure... (Score:2)
Would be nice... (Score:2, Funny)
A Nice Sunny Day... (Score:5, Funny)
Come on! Smile! You know you want to...
Re:A Nice Sunny Day... (Score:3, Funny)
Man runs up to her wearing a trenchcoat. Man opens trench coat - flashing lady with moving images from www.hot-sex.com on LCD screens hiden inside his jacket.
Lady screams.
Man runs away into the bushes.
Re:A Nice Sunny Day... (Score:2)
Security? (Score:2, Insightful)
FRRYYY? (Score:5, Funny)
"Free Registration Required, Yo Yo Yo"?
Re:FRRYYY? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:FRRYYY? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:FRRYYY? (Score:4, Funny)
Good God, Slashdot, what have you done to me?
I'm in acronym hell, and you are Satan with a pineapple!
Re:FRRYYY? (Score:2)
Yoda Yoda Yoda (Score:2)
Re:FRRYYY? (Score:2)
Homer: Beer
Flanders: And the second?
Homer: That's a typo.
Re:FRRYYY? (Score:2)
Re:FRRYYY? (Score:2)
Not registered? No problem (Score:3, Informative)
Rector Park (Battery Park City) (Score:4, Insightful)
Sustainability? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Sustainability? (Score:2)
Step One: Set up wireless network...
Step Two:
Step Three: Profit
Tired old joke, but it seems to be a popular business model. There are a ton of websites and services with the same idea: give away lots of free stuff with no hope of gaining a profit. Look what happened to AdCritic.
Re:Sustainability? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Sustainability? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Sustainability? (Score:2)
NYCwireless looks like a great initiative, but I have to wonder how sustainable not-for-profit wireless networks like this are.
1970: This Internet thing sure seems like a great initiative, but I have to woder how sustainable not-for-profit wired networks like this are.
Re:Sustainability? (Score:4, Interesting)
The key is having enough wireless routers out there to provide a signal for a bunch of radii of coverage so that there are no "dead zones." In a place like LA, you'd need 100s and 100s of routers spread over relatively sparse sprawl. The nice thing about Manhattan is you can have one or two people put up a router and that router will theoretically cover hundreds to thousands of people.
This is exactly why (if you look at the map found at the wireless map [nodedb.com]) you'll see that Manhattan is ridiculously well covered, but the other boroughs (which are sparser) are not.
Will this work in all of America? Keep in mind that after Manhattan -- The Bronx, Brooklyn and Queens are the three densest counties in America (with SF as #5.) And it's not really working in any borough outside of Manhattan...
Re:Sustainability? (Score:2)
I don't know the first thing about the different mesh networking plans, but this'd be an excellent sort of problem to solve:
If certain users have bandwidth that they'd be happy to share, and a WAP, someone needs to make a configuration utility that allows them to easily share their internet-bound bandwidth with the network.
The part that's really different from a wifi bridge is that this needs to be ad-hoc. So that internet access providers can enter and exit the network without fubaring connectivity. Between folks like the pakketto keiretsu author and regular ad hoc networking folks, I'm sure it could work.
Re:Sustainability? (Score:2, Insightful)
weed (web) services? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:weed (web) services? (Score:2)
These days most dealers run their businesses out of their cars, not their streetcorners: You page them and they deliver to your home. (Or, um, so I've heard.) Sure beats hanging around on a street corner in the middle of the night with drugs and cash in your pocket. Some believe that this is part of the reason violent crime dropped in the mid-90s nationwide: Less crack dealers on the corner, less people trying to rob crack dealers.
The exception still seems to be Washington Square Park, which from what I've heard is still an alright place to score. I'd suspect that it's because WSP has lots of tourists and college kids who are new in town.
Re:weed (web) services? (Score:4, Funny)
And you can check the status on the big bust down at the docks - thereby inflating the cost of crack on the spot, thats one degree of separation.
Sunshine and green grass? (Score:5, Funny)
Sweet (Score:2, Interesting)
So that's what it's all about? (Score:4, Funny)
Well, at least it's not the Hokey Pokey. Thank god for small miracles.
Ya put yer high bit in.. (Score:2)
Ya put yer high bit in, and ya twiddle it about.
heh (Score:5, Funny)
They forgot to add free as the smell of dog-shit, annoying joggers, muggers, pick-pockets, mumbling homeless people, ranting homeless people, hari-krishnas, and I'm sure the occasional "hey, wanna buy a watch" guy.
Sorry, never been there, I'm sure its nice.
Re:heh (Score:4, Informative)
I first visited it because my girlfriend works for a downtown revitalization consortium in my city, and when I went to visit NYC (this was a couple years ago) she had me take a pile of photos and QuicktimeVR nodes of the park -- as it's the very model of an urban public park these days. It's a few blocks north of the Empire State building.
Awesome grass, pretty trees, an awesome view, upscale sandwich carts (reminds me of Central Park) -- and get this:
The tables and chairs in the park aren't concrete or nailed down. They're comfortable and light and you're encouraged to shift and move around anywhere on the block.
It's a *VERY* popular lunch and sunbathing spot.
It's a pretty huge experiment that's been really successful and is being copied by a lot of cities trying to revitalize their own downtown areas right now.
Sure, you get a couple of wierdos from time to time -- but, hell! It's New York City! You *PAY* to hang around those same wierdos in the Village come nightfall.
Re:heh (Score:2)
The lawn is usually closed, they open it up during the summer now and then, but usually when i walk by it's closed. It's closed right now, probably letting the grass recover after the fashion show.
You can't sit at the tables this week, all the open areas are taken up by the booths selling holiday knicknacks.
It's a nice park and all, but it seems that it's more for use by paid parties (fashion show, circus, microsoft, and the current booths) than for the people.
Re:heh (Score:2, Informative)
Re:heh (Score:2)
There are chairs? When I visited NYC the one thing that i niticed the most (after walking around all day) is that there is nowhere to sit that isnt on the goround or doesnt require you to buy something first pretty much anywhere in the city. In times square there is a little park with benches in it. This park is fenced off from the general public. Despite this there was a bum sleeping on the bench. NYC's solution to the homeless isnt "build more homeless shelters" its "get rid of places where the homeless can sleep" because that will certainly solve the problem.
Airports with 802.11b? (Score:2)
Re:Airports with 802.11b? (Score:2)
Private vs Public (Score:4, Informative)
See company's can do nice things...
Don't bash all of them
Re:Private vs Public (Score:2)
See company's can do nice things... Don't bash all of them
The fact that Bryant Park Restoration Corporation is a specifically not-for-profit company just might be relevant. And quite possibly they're funded do this "nice thing" by local developers, property management companies, and other businesses, who stand to gain quite a bit from having a squeeky clean park. (Note that park rules prohibit panhandling, which the city can't legally do in parks that it controls.)
Sure companies can do nice things ... if there's something in it for them. (And quite right, too, but excuse me if I'm not naive enough to start fawning over them for it.)
Already Done In Pittsburgh (Score:3, Informative)
Pah! I am sitting in Oakland (home of U Pittsburgh and Carnegie Mellon) with my iBook on a free Telerama connection. Apart from Telerama (which will turn to a paid service when they have the entire city covered), the City of Pittsburgh has a free net downtown, and Telerama and others cover all major neighborhoods.
When Telerama starts charging, I'll just cancel my ISP and use them everywhere. Free would be nice, but my ISP getting me wireless access everywhere in the city is great too.
Of course, Pitt, CMU and Duquesne have their own wireless points all over for their students/staff. It's already reality in Pittsburgh, buddy.
Wireless Park In Portland (Score:5, Informative)
Interactive, engaging and site-specific applications are a click away. The Dialtone Symphony [flong.com] (.ram [dax.aec.at]) is wholly produced through the choreographed ringing of people's own cell phones. Here are some other ideas:
The Public Review Draft of Portland's Waterfront Park Master Plan [portlandparks.org] is available on-line.
The Morrison Bridge [bizave.com], in the center of Waterfront Park, has phone line access. An Orinoco 2500 [proxim.com] ($1000) could drive Wi-Fi repeaters [dailywireless.org] on the north end (near Saturday Market) and the south end, (near the Alexis Hotel), providing blanket coverage. The repeaters [dailywireless.org] could be camouflaged [dailywireless.org] as animals or Oregon historic figures [ochcom.org]. Waterfront Park also has a direct shot to the Council Crest tower [custommetalworks.com] where Winfield Wireless [winfieldwireless.com] has a wireless ISP.
Rent out Segway Scooters [segway.com] with built-in Pocket PCs. Your GPS position would trigger Oregon Historical Society's Narrated Neighborhood Tours [ohs.org], Portland Visitor's Association's Self-Guided Tours [pova.com], Portland Metro Maps [metro-region.org] or Lewis and Clark Maps [mapbureau.com]. Wireless cameras [dailywireless.org] could be helpful for the police, too.
Jacksonville Florida's free wireless hot spots [jaxwiz.org] provide tourist information as well as internet access. Multi-lingual kiosks, incorporating webtablets with language translation are available now. Text to speech can be output in a variety of languages. And it sounds good. Human voice samples are now incorporated into text to speech. Choose a language, respond by voice.
Parks have not caught up with the wireless society. Let's make it happen!
Re:Wireless Park In Portland (Score:4, Insightful)
Parks have not caught up with the wireless society. Let's make it happen!
As good as that sounds, I'm sure there are plenty of people who would prefer to keep technology out of our parks. I would hate for the sounds of wind in the trees, children playing, and birds singing to be drowned out by a cell phone symphony. Think about it.
Re:Wireless Park In Portland (Score:3, Interesting)
This is a really interesting IDea. It would be a useful thing in theme parks and anywhere there are large crowds. What would be neat is kiosks with screens on them. and when you walked up and stood in the little circle in front of the screen it would show you as a dot on a map - and if the tags could be given a group ID - you could see all the other people in your group as dots (they are here) on the map.
It would be neat to also be able to touch the map and set a waypoint for all the people in your group to meet up at.
To add people to your group - you touch add ID - then the person you want to add puts his wrist up to a reader that has a very small proximity reader (so it doesnt add the people walking by mistakenly)
Each band would just have a unique ID.
(although it would be funny to watch the map update the location of your friends while they are riding around on roller coasters.)
Peace and Quiet (Score:3, Funny)
Green. (Score:4, Insightful)
Personally, I go to the local park to get some fresh air, look at something other than Windows and get a modicum amount of exercise.
The last thing I want to do is check my email.
Re:Green. (Score:2)
Re:Green. (Score:2)
Fresh air? You kidding, there's no such thing as fresh air in NYC.
It's a nice, cozy park, except it's really crowded; during lunch it's difficult to find a chair or table. The lawn is frequently closed so the grass gets a chance to breathe after hosting the fashion show, circus, the myriad of functions. Right now most of the free space is taken up by holiday shopping stalls.
Hmm... the antennas are probably just out of LoS... should run downstairs and pick up a pringles can and play with it.
In related news (Score:5, Funny)
Homeland security secretary Ridge today ordered thousands of law enforcement officers to scour the grounds of Central Park looking for a warez web server believed to be operating from a remote control car.
In other news... (Score:4, Funny)
-psy
We've run into some problems with this (Score:4, Informative)
Eight Megabyte (Score:5, Interesting)
Ok, am I the only one who caught this? I'm hoping (not really) that it's a terminology error, because a 64mbps connection sounds real, real nice, especially when it's free.
The project as a whole, though, sounds very cool. I think I would like to try that out when I go this summer.
Tompkins Square Park (Score:2)
On a related note -- I have a Linksys WAP11 in my apartment and recently stopped bothering with the encryption, figuring that if anyone else in my building wanted to use it, I don't really mind. However, I'd love to know if they were. Is there anyway you can check out who using the connection short of just sniffing the LAN for packets that are not your own?
Unaccountable (Score:2)
Or are there lots of cameras in the parks with automatic facial recognition?
Get out the wands and pointy hats... (Score:3, Funny)
How about the other 13k Acess Points in NYC??? (Score:2, Informative)
From thier site:
That is a little better than just Bryant Park.
interesting (Score:2)
In what units does one measure "business"?
NYC is broke (Score:3, Funny)
Cool, Tompkins Square is on the list... (Score:2, Interesting)
I wonder if I'll be able to tap into the network for free.
The city has been trying to pimp this area for a while now, it was really bad years ago. I guess they'll do anything to get MORE people here (E. Village = one big ass bar and resturant)
Mazel Tov (Score:2)
Re:internet access? (Score:2)
Re:What about security? (Score:4, Insightful)
Note: These are not my views, only what I'm reading between the lines of the previous poster's comments.
"What security precautions have they taken to ensure that terrorists don't utilize this wireless connectivity to access bomb-making instructions from the Internet?"
Are they spying on everyone who uses the network? If not, they should. Can't have those hackers/terrorists/pedophiles/'bad people'/etc using the network; only Good People(tm).
"And even if they've been responsible enough to put a filter on the information available,"
And even if they're 'responsible' enough to censor the information (in violation of the first amendment),
"what about all the non-savvy folk in the park who don't have firewalls?"
We need to protect people from themselves; save the children; treat all people like children - pick any of the above.
"Are we to just stand by while their hard drives are violated by swarthy assailants?"
We need to arrest all 'hackers' and those thinking about 'hacking'. We also need to force security software and anti-virus software on all users of the network regardless of whether it will cause problems for them or whether they want it or not.
Hmm.. wouldn't it be easier to shoot all the citizens instead of trying to mess with all this? That seems to be the Final Solution(tm) you're seeking here anyway.
First amendment? Gimme a break! (Score:2)
Nice troll attempt. Like most other clue-challenged individuals who fall (or blisfully ignorant dive on purpose) into this trap, you are comparing the apples of communications in a private context with the oranges of government attempting to control speech, especially political speech. It is the latter which is protected by the first amendment.
Just because someone gives you internet access does not mean that they owe you a pedestal. In a private context (such as a workplace or even a public park) the provider of the services can do whatever the hell they want to do. If you don't like it, get off your fat duff and go somewhere else, or better yet, go start your own venture where you can attract all others of your ilk - you can call it "ClueLessNet".
Thanks for the "translation." It's worth even less than I paid for it.
Duh,
-Steve
Re:First amendment? Gimme a break! (Score:2)
"you are comparing the apples of communications in a private context with the oranges of government attempting to control speech, especially political speech. It is the latter which is protected by the first amendment."
No, I wasn't talking about evesdropping at all. In fact, I don't think I ever once mentioned anything about evesdropping in that comment. The reason? In a public place using a public service, you have little expectation of privacy; especially with something as inherently insecure as 802.11b. On the other hand, the government selectively making websites unavailable to users is censorship, and is a violation of the first amendment as interpreted many, many times by the Supreme Court. The right to be heard is just as important as the right to speak. As for someone giving me internet access, I have a reasonable expectation that they will comply with a privacy policy which is made available to me upon request.
Re:First amendment? Gimme a break! (Score:2)
You introduced the word "evesdropping."
On the other hand, the government selectively making websites unavailable to users is censorship, and is a violation of the first amendment as interpreted many, many times by the Supreme Court.
I don't suppose that you could cite any cases, either already seen by the Supreme Court, or pending before the Supreme Court, that address the very common situation of public libraries (i.e. government entities) making websites unavailable.
The right to be heard is just as important as the right to speak.
I hate to be the one to break it to you, but there is no right to be heard.
Re:What about security? (Score:2)
Not true at all. John Ashcroft isn't. He lost his election bid to a dead man [bbc.co.uk]and neither is this guy [fec.gov].
Re:Filters are not censorship (Score:2)
"And it only applies to Americans anyway, not illegal immigrants."
Ever heard the saying, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"? If you deny basic rights to guests in our country (be they here legally or otherwise) then you run the risk of your citizens being treated very poorly elsewhere around the world. If you truly believe in the value of freedom and democracy, then you'll have no problem overlooking where those practicing said freedom are from.
Selectively applied freedom is the definition of tyranny.
Re:hopefully they did it right.. (Score:3, Insightful)
'With some clever engineering and hardware from Cisco Systems and Intel, the wireless park was born.
Do you not think they made a system that allows triangulation of where you are, and also sends your content through Echelon-Ex v4.2?
I'm sure if you were to hack into a gov system, they'd have you pinned to the ground before you could leave the park.
Yes, and ban any computer with DRM too!! (Score:2)
In this case, it's even stupider. You're basically saying we should put restrictions on everyone because some people haven't bothered keep up with security patches. As far as spamming goes, well I might agree with an SMTP block, but that has more to do with the fact that SMTP is an obsolete protocol, and there's no real reason to be running a mail server from a park with (I'm assuming) a DHCP address.
Re:hopefully they did it right.. (Score:2)
The problem with enabling SSH and HTTPS is that you loose all tracking. Privacy is a good thing until you are running a free service without accountability (as others have noted.) Of course, you could always run SSH over 80 via a proxy...Sounds like they're in for some problems.
Re:hopefully they did it right.. (Score:2)
Re:hopefully they did it right.. (Score:2)
22 is just a number.
Re:hopefully they did it right.. (Score:2)
Yep...you just need a listener on the "outside". Still traceable point to point, they just can't tell what you were doing.
Re:hopefully they did it right.. (Score:2)
the other way of fixing that is running a transparent proxy on port 80.. thne your ssh connection wont go outside the network and fail when the transparent proxy pukes on your ssh connection to it.
Yeah, but (Score:2)
Re:hopefully they did it right.. (Score:3, Informative)
works great.