U.S. Attack -- More Updates 2465
I'm trying to get stuff together, and post an update: The Pentagon, which evidently has partly collapsed with a chasm 200-300 feet across, and fires on six
stories, has ordered the USS JFK and George Washington into NYC. PLEASE GIVE BLOOD. Over 200 firemen are reported missing, and
reports of 50,000 dead in the WTC collapse are being bandied about. Dick Cheney has assumed control of the White House, and is in the situation room there. GWB is not returning to the White House until things have calmed down -- and has gone evidently to an undisclosed location. The [CDC] in Atlanta has largely evacuated but has activated their bioterrorism
units. American Airlines flight 11, the first to crash into the WTC, was going from BOS -> LAX. There are rumors of Akamai's founder being onboard on Flight 11, As well, the rumor is that the pilot of United Flight 193 flew it in
into the ground, outside Pittsburgh, rather then fly into the USX building, which if true, makes him a better person then I -- but there are also rumors that it was shot down by a F-16. United Flight 175 also crashed into the WTC, according to Boston.com, and originated from Boston -- so the WTC was both Boston
flights. Reports of a car bomb that was supposed to have gone off int front the State Department have been denied. In a statement, the Taliban government of Afghanistan has denied any involvement, and Yassar Arafat has denounced the attack. Remember: No one knows who did this yet, so don't make any assumptions -- remember what people
first thought about the OKC attack. In other news, the US - Mexico/Canada borders are being heavily screened; all air traffic has been grounded; nationwide federal
buildings are being evacuated; NATO personnel in Brussells have been sent home, Israeli embassies worldwide have been evacuated, all U.S. Disney parks shut down;
major parts of European cities, Britain in particular, are being shut down; stock trading is shut down in all major European and American exchanges. There are 50 flights still in the air, with 2
international flights that have yet to respond. F16s from the US Air Force has been instructed to shoot down flights in a no fly zone over NYC & DC - an AVI of the WTC plane or mpeg here.
More as we
know.Update: 09/11 18:10 PM GMT by H :I've heard on NPR that all flights and planes are now accounted for -- but that a fifth crash has occurred in an undisclosed location. As well, a car bomb did go off in front of the State Department, and there was a crash near Camp David. There's a well done timeline - we also had a report from someone who lives 3 miles away from the PA crash. Evidently the plane veered several times, and then smashed into an abandoned strip mine - which was luckily not near any people or anything.
Plea for peace (Score:5, Insightful)
FWIW, I'm not a citizen of the U.S. nor do I live there.
Violence induces more violence. Retaliation will only lead to more deaths. If you are a citizen of the U.S. of America, please write your representative right now and ask him to join a plea for peace. Historically the U.S. reaction to this kind of attack is to counter strike. It's highly probably that it's already being planned or even carried on. That will solve nothing. You might get even, but that achieves nothing. The death will not come back and the attack has been already recorded on the books of history. At this point in time, counter attacking is irrational and puts not only the lives of U.S. citizens at risk, but those of lots of people all arround the world, too.
Giving Blood Wherever you live! (Score:3, Insightful)
Donate Blood (Score:3, Insightful)
If you can't help this way please just go and donate blood today.
My prayers go out to the hundreds, if not thousands of families who lost a loved one today. NYC is my home town. All I can do from 1375 miles away I will.
Peace,
Sandor Urban
Re:Plea for peace (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Nostradamus (Score:4, Insightful)
Please, put your doomsayer sandwichboards down and stop ringing the bells.
(Not you Diomedes, you talk sense)
Smid
Re:this is NOT pearl Harbour (Score:2, Insightful)
It's definitely not Pearl Harbor. It's worse. This is not a military installation they attacked
Better... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I hope... (Score:4, Insightful)
This is certainly one of the worst things I have ever witnessed, and that includes being in London during IRA bombings.
I just have been thinking: who on Earth is going to take responsibility for this?? As soon as one has spoken up, yes, he will be a flat spot on the wall.
Re:except... (Score:1, Insightful)
No, mod parent down. How about we learn that we can not behave as a nation belligerently with imputiny, and instead become a well behaved nation and try to enjoy imputiny?
Re:Remember the past (Score:5, Insightful)
Japanese Admiral Yamamoto
After attack on Pearl Harbor
Quoted from http://www.nps.gov/fdrm/generation/ph.htm
Re:Plea for peace (Score:2, Insightful)
We don't even know who did it yet. I'm already seeing anti Middle Eastern sentiments popping up around me. It makes me sick. I'm also sickened and horrified by the destruction that took place. Still, I think the best thing to do is to remain as calm as possible, and not place blame on the "turban heads" (somebody actually said that to me this morning) or anyone else.
Re:Plea for peace (Score:5, Insightful)
Correction: you don't have peace or security. You just got attacked.
Correction: those responsible are dead. They died attacking.
Correction: there is NO justice possible in this situation. Nor is peace possible.
There has to be retaliation for this, without a doubt. But it will not resolve the problem.
You might also want to think about why this attack occurred. How did the USA get into a position where someone hates it *so* much that they'd suicide themselves in revenge?
AIRLINE INFORMATION (Score:4, Insightful)
Second: UA, 175, Boston=>LA, ?.
Third (Pentagon): AA, 77, Dulles=>LA, 64.
Four: UA, 93, Newark=>SF, ?.
Five: UA, Camp David.
Six: (PA crash),
Seven: (CO crash?), UA?, 175, =>LA?
Many planes still in the air, none currently threatened.
Crash Five may be a rumour. I keep seeing it scroll by on the TV, but I've read that it's been denied.
Facial recognition software, anyone? (Score:5, Insightful)
Abuses of those tools should be another discussion entirely -- an important discussion, but not a paranoid paralyzing one.
I'm usually fairly detached during times like this, but by myself, watching the coverage, and imagining the enormity of the loss of life, mental health, peace, property, and productivity -- I couldn't help but cry in frustration at not being able to do anything.
I'm sure I wasn't the only one. To those of you who felt likewise, don't forget that feeling. When the time comes when you're able to voice your support for tools and methods to stop these methods of terrorism, don't be silent.
peace is not an abscence of war (Score:2, Insightful)
a state of mind; a disposition for benevolence, trust
and justice.' (Spinoza)
'Peace is a habit of mind, a way of seeing, that will make
harmony suceed. We have made mistrust and coercion our habit
of mind, and built our civilisation on the balance of power,
therefore we will reap war after war, and there will be violence
in our streets and even in our schools and homes.'
(Eknath Easwaran, Three Harmonies, Parabola Magazine,
November 1991, p. 50)
When those who are economically powerful are in a position to use
their power to wrest privileged rights for themselves, then among the
economically weak there will grow up a corresponding opposition to
these privileges; and this opposition must as soon as it has grown
strong enough lead to revolutionary disturbances. If the existence of
a special province of rights makes it impossible for such privileged
rights to arise, then disturbances of this sort cannot occur. . .
(Rudolf Steiner - Social Threefolding, 1920)
http://home.earthlink.net/~johnrpenner/Articles
An eye for an eye, and the whole world goes blind (Score:5, Insightful)
Are more dead people the answer here? Take a minute to think before screaming for vengence.
Re:Plea for peace (Score:5, Insightful)
We need to be able to think of that _while_ also retaliating harshly.
The fact that we have been brutally attacked does not make us automatically righteous. I've felt for a long time that US interests, in many ways, have been waging war on the rest of the world- but more like a siege. Mostly we have not been gunning people down- mostly our corporations have not been gunning people down- and we certainly haven't engaged in this sort of all-out assault recently.
We're up again, and clearly we're going to be smashing the hell out of _somebody_... but we have got to take a minute afterwards, to ask: just how unprovoked was it? What have we been doing? Are we even aware of what our country may have been doing in our names? If more than half of us don't even _vote_ much less pay attention to what our country is doing with its massive weaponry and economic coercion, is that okay?
It looks like we've got to smash somebody. In fact, it looks like the people we'll be hitting are fanatics. The fact that they are fanatics does not make us angels, and we gotta remain aware of that as we move into a 21st century and see multinational organizations taking over from nation-states.
And boy, are we ever in the 21st century. :(
Re:I hope... (Score:1, Insightful)
All the things we bitch about on Slashdot seem like nothing today.
Re:Webcams (Score:3, Insightful)
That footage of the South Tower getting hit by the 757(?) is just chilling.
This is where brains come in (Score:5, Insightful)
Counter attacking is not a good solution, for several reasons. 1) We do not know who to blame, and blind lynching leads to many problems, 2) even if we did know who to blame, counter attacking stands a good chance of angering others, and perpetuating the cycle, 3) even if we knew which nation to attack, and could get away with it, it is still wrong to kill people for the actions of others--we would be no better than the terrorists.
On the other hand, doing nothing is likewise unacceptable. It will send the message that these actions can be taken with impunity, and likely lead to further assaults. Failing to stand up for yourself is the best way to become a victim.
So, logically, we need to do something that is not a counter attack.
This is where brains come in. What can we do that will reduce or eliminate this kind of threat but isn't a blind reprisal? That is the question we should be turning our brains to.
-- MarkusQ
Predictions (Score:4, Insightful)
First of all, I hope and pray for the safety of all involved, and commend the rescue workers who are putting their lives on the line to save others. These people are heroes in the truest sense, and deserve our undying admiration and respect.
Watching the news, all of the stations, particularly the military correspondents (Gen. Schwarzkopf included) talked about the complete failure of our intelligence community to provide us with any warning about this attack. Reporters asking "how could such a thing have happened with no warning," "haven't we infiltrated these groups," "how can you maintain secrecy on something this widespread," etc.
In a couple of weeks, I'm going to look like a prophet for this one. I predict that somebody will mention data security, including e-mail encryption. Whether correctly or not, somebody will propose it, and encryption, already a hot topic in National Security circles, will gain focus.
I predict that within a month, Congress will have drafted, and probably passed, a National Security Act to address the threat of terrorism. In that act, I fully expect to see severe restrictions on the use of secure data systems, including encryption of any form (e-mail, PGP file encryption/encrypted file systems, even SSH and SSL), anonymity (anonymous bulletin boards, including such things as Slashdot), and relaxation of wiretapping laws. E-mail will be required to be send in plaintext, Carnivore will be restored to active duty, and put on more servers with more keywords and more aggressive monitoring. Cell phones, already ruled to be not private, will be actively monitored by the government, as will landline phones--remember, cordless phones (you know you all have them) emit RF too, and the few that have scrambling systems are easily compromised.
Also expect to see civil liberties severely curtailed, at least for a while. Meeting with friends at odd hours (odd to the rest of the world, normal to geeks)? Suspicious. Phone calls to friends in other countries, or of other nationailities (particularly Middle Eastern)? Suspicious. Use of encryption/security? Suspicious squared--after all, what do you have to hide?
My big prediction, though, is that the American Sheeple will hail this as a Good Thing, and support it wholeheartedly. The Sheeple will automatically say that anything that improves security must be a Good Idea, and will fall into line without even considering the ramifications.
Mark my words, my friends: today has been one small step for terrorism, but one giant leap for the police state.
Well Great. (Score:4, Insightful)
Now that there's less action on the ground, we're getting all the "experts" in as talking heads.
And the unfortunate thing is that some of them are instigating racial hatred. Well, cultural hatred, at any rate.
The same thing is beginning to happen on Slashdot: wingnuts wanting to obliterate Palestian, and even some who want to nuke the entire mid-East.
GET A CLUE!
The US can't just walk in and kill every damn Muslim and Arab. That'd be a worse atrocity than the attack on the WTC -- and the retaliation would make today's events look like a trip to Disneyland.
There must be retaliation...but it must be rational!
Use your cluesticks with impunity. Contact your news stations and let them know that they're being destructive, not constructive; join the message boards and preach cautious, considered reactions; and remain calm.
[Please also note that more people die every day or two in traffic accidents, than were killed in the attack. It's a tragedy, but not much worse than the tragedy we live with every day... it's just that we don't expect terrorist attacks.]
Re:Plea for peace (Score:2, Insightful)
Obviously, everyone who knows anthing about our military history and us as a people, knows that our first reaction will be to grab our guns and start shouting for blood. That's the move they want us to make. We need to be smart and do things in a considered manner. Those who are responsible DO need to be punished. But there are other ways than sending a phalanx of bombers somewhere to rain fire and brimstone on their heads.
For one thing, that's obviously what these maniacs think they're doing to us -- just retribution for our various unpopular policies.
I don't know what the right move is, but more is at stake here than our national pride and safety. It could certainly spark an immense international conflict, and I'd advocate doing a lot of serious thinking before walking into WWIII. If we have to act with violence, then we should do so -- but I don't think that it's at all clear right now that violence is the best alternative.
Re:There will be HELL to pay (Score:2, Insightful)
Oh, calm down. Why does everything have to be made worse by people exagerating? Isn't the truth bad enough for you, for fuck's sake?
Re:Oh christ, the politics already... (Score:3, Insightful)
Attempting to destroy New York City is beyond politics- that's war. The response will be war.
But the _causes_ of this are politics. I've seen a few brave posters from outside the US saying, "Um, you really think this is unprovoked?" and they should be listened to.
In my opinion, we are obviously heading into a world where the nation-state is no longer the focus. I've heard the terrorist organisation responsible for this is multinational and extends all over the world. That's much like the corporations we have, which do things like try and sue Indian farmers over growing rice that was native to India in the first place, which try and tie economic relief to a political system, which try and inflict our screwed-up intellectual property notions on the rest of the world- and those guys are multinational too, and often with economic coercion to rival actual countries.
I'm not sure there is a country that could have done us as much damage, in a conventional military attack, as this multinational 'terrorist' organization did in its attack.
As to the democrat/republican thing: hell, I voted Green/Progressive, and lost. I believe if Gore had won, this day would still have happened. BOTH the Dems and Reps represent a particular type of American political system- one that obviously has insane, fanatical enemies.
The fact that the enemies are fanatics making suicide attacks does not make the American political system right. The fact that we need to fight back now does not make us blameless- we just happen to be the ones expected to deliver the counterstrike. When we've done that, we damn well better take a look at whether we're really 'all that and a bag of chips' ourselves. How can we face ourselves knowing that our country wields huge force in the world, and yet half of us won't even vote for _President_ much less pay attention to what our country is doing? That's got to stop- we've got to smarten up and take responsibility.
If we want all the world to _agree_ that we aren't 'the great satan', we have got to pay closer attention to what our country, our capitalist economic system, our political system, are doing out there. This didn't come out of nowhere. We've known about the resentment for a long time, over all sorts of things and in all sorts of ways, and mostly we've just flat out ignored anyone who dared to suggest we weren't the apex of creation.
Once we've got through this next bit, we have _got_ to grow up...
NYC Blood Donor Info--PLEASE MOD UP (Score:5, Insightful)
If you are in NYC and looking to donate blood, I would consider physically going to the site rather than using the phone. I am not in the city; those there should decide for themselves whether the transportation system or the phone lines are clogged up worse.
Also, if you are in the NYC area, consider seeing if these Red Cross chapters or anyone providing relief efforts to see if they need unskilled volunteers--setting up tents, manning the food lines, etc. See your local place of worship, regardless of your religious persuasions--many of them may be providing relief efforts.
Re:I hope... (Score:2, Insightful)
Nuke the bastards. (Score:1, Insightful)
Alexandria Virginia
Re:Plea for peace (Score:4, Insightful)
1. Kill them all. Every last one of them. And anyone who ever cared about them. No one will be left to carry out revenge. No future generations will rise up.
OR
2. Forgive.
Apparently, neither of these are really an option, so we'll be pedalling this cycle for a good long while to come.
- - - -
But really, "Go W"? Do you have any idea how rediculous that sounds? We'll be lucky if that bastard doesn't round up any person who is a moslem in the US and put them in camps for orderly disposal.
I think that the US people have learned, and will soon have the lesson reinforced, what happens when you elect a president with WEAK foreign experience.
I'm all for rallying around the flag, but I refuse to support this charlatan of a leader.
Said After pearl Harbor (Score:3, Insightful)
"Your state government is prepared and ready to perform every defense task which has or will be assigned to it. The State of Washington is on the frontier of a great war. We do not know what the future holds in store for us. We do not know what trials we must go through or what sacrifices we will be called upon to make. We do know what is at stake. We know that our country, our liberties and our very homes are threatened. We are individually and as a nation being called upon to make good our pledge of allegiance to flag and country" (Seattle Star).
Terrorists want Retaliation (Score:5, Insightful)
Terrorism is not about strategy or tacticts, these acts were not battles in a war. they served no strategic or tactical purpose, the group that perpetrated these acts is not going to move in and conquer, or anything like that. The purpose of terrorism is to generate fear and political tension.
All this commotion the politicians are making is exactly what the terrorists wanted. They have succeeded in the first steps of disrupting American lifestyle. By making huge reactions we're fulfilling the terrorists goals.
What we need to do is first keep calm and tend to our victims. Second we need to take a few days (at least) to cool off and evaluate ways we can improve security and information access (why was it so hard to figure out which planes crashed? can't we keep track of where a plane is in the air?). Finally, and most difficult, we need to figure how to go back about our lives. We need to show that terrorism is an impotent tool.
Shock and Disbelief (Score:2, Insightful)
Second, I'm getting sick and tired of listening to American's disbelief and shock over this tragedy. How is it that the US can enjoy the highest standard of living and quality of life in the world? How is it that the US consumes the most resources, far more than its far share, in the world? Do Americans really think that all of our wealth has just been willingly handed to us by grateful people throughout the world? Do Americans really think that we have no blood on our hands?
I'm sick about these terrorist attacks. When I first heard about them this morning, I felt sick to my stomach. But I feel that way about any terrorist attack in any country, not just in the US. And unless you work at being ignorant, you will know that the US has been responsible for its share of terrorism throughtout the world.
We can continue to feel free to go about our daily lives, enjoying our excess of resources and high quality of living, never asking where it all came from or why the majority of people in the world don't seem to enjoy the same. But we have no right to be shocked that someone out there doesn't like us.
Re:WAR! (Score:5, Insightful)
Islam, at it's heart, is about peace. The killing of innocents is abhorent to Allah (God).
Re:Remember the past (Score:2, Insightful)
Tomorrow morning's news will be filled with reports of vandalism and violence against shops run by humans of Middle Eastern descent. Let's try not to avoid another Krystallnacht.
Yes. Remember the past. Don't repeat it.
Re:Plea for peace (Score:3, Insightful)
If possible, pepetrators of this kind of terrorism should be made to see the error of their ways, in the hopes of preventing future incidents. However, if that proves to be impossible, the only recourse is total annihalation.
I am a peaceful person. I would do just about anything to insure that we could all live harmoniously. But if other people force the issue into a "me or them" situation, I pick me, every time, and will defend that decision with ultimate force.
Stop the Rhetoric (Score:2, Insightful)
Hitler was the leader of a nation, therefore the nation of Germany was a legitmate target for military strikes.
There are some nations that sponsor terorist activities and those government should be targeted, but the terrorist organizations are self appointed, and not representatives of any specific nation or nationality.
Also quit the lets invade BS. That sort of rhetoric is easy when you're not the one on the ground with a weapon in your hand. I'm a soldier (infantry) and I will be. If my commanders order me to go I will, and I do believe we should retaliate, but when a 17 year old computer geek screams invade all he/she does is look like ignorant asshole.
Re:Plea for peace (Score:3, Insightful)
Israel has been waging an all out war on Hamas, and their killing innocents by the hundreds. As a result, Hamas is gaining popular support by leaps and bounds, and so is Saddam Hussein as he's been openly supporting Hamas. News reports have shown that the Iraqi flag is almost as prevalent as the Hamas flag in Palestinian refugee camps.
A complete pacifistic reaction does nothing. Not even a change in U.S. intervention in the middle east would change anything. Unmitigated reactionary violence however is tantamount to disaster. The US response must be precise, measured, and carried out with absolute lethality.
WILL EVERYBODY STOP WITH THE TURBAN THING? (Score:5, Insightful)
It could be Muslims. It could be Christians. It could be Athiests, (White|Black|Yellow|Red|Purple) supremacists, anarchists, fascists, disgruntled pilots, almost anybody. I am not blaming any of the above groups; I am demonstrating that we just don't know.
Here's what we do know. This was a group of people (at least four, one for each aircraft) rather than one person. Those who carried out the plan (rather than any possible planners we don't see yet) were willing to die for this. They were trained for this mission (highjacking an aircraft is not an easy job today, and the fact that we have heard of no failed hijacking attempts today implies that all attempts were successful; we didn't have four successes in sixteen attempts or whatever). This implies premeditation and weeks of planning. Note that this also implies that the act was not a Columbine-type killing. The rash of Columbine events in the past few years show a lot of premeditation, but not the level of skill needed to hijack an aircraft.
Going from here to the conclusion that it must be some turban-wearing, gun-toting radical Islamic militants is a huge leap to a conclusion, and symptomatic of some deep seated hatred.
Let's not try to pin this on somebody until we get some more facts.
Re:Plea for peace (Score:5, Insightful)
Neither is compromise the best option now. The United States should do it's best to identify the larger supporting organisations, and strike them so that the are unable to do this again. (We can't make them not want to do it again). This will involve killing many people, and it will involve collateral damage to civilians and loss of life for US military personel. That is unfortunate, but it should still be done.
The Canadian response, (I am a Canadian), should be to support the US in whatever action it takes. No more fence sitting. These are our friends and neighbours and they need our support.
Re:PENTAGON != COLLAPSED INTO A HOLE! Stay off pho (Score:3, Insightful)
The worst thing about violence is that it causes people who were previously non-violent to become violent. Don't let the terrorists make you one of them!
On another note.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Sheesh, I wish the media would a) let these people have some dignity, and b) quit asking so many stupid Sally Jessy-esque questions.
"Fight Club" not so funny (Score:3, Insightful)
Now seeing people jumping out of windows in terror, thousands crushed burned and killed, a city closed, an infrastructure disabled, and world on high-alert, it doesn't seem so cool anymore.
I feel the full effect of desensitization in the movies, and I am disturbed that I can't find the right words to communicate with friends who are in the midst of this crisis. Where can compassion be found? I'm not blaming the media for anything, I'm just sharply aware of the before and after I'm feeling toward fightclub vs. the real thing.
No car bomb (Score:2, Insightful)
They expect retaliation. What have they prepared? (Score:3, Insightful)
The terrorist group that has organized this attack is probably the largest and most organized. But how big are they? they are by no means in size and sophistication as the US, and cannot fight face to face, but will have instead prepared an other extreme action.
The attacks today were prime targets for 2 reasons. Casualties, and media impact. This has severely shocked America and the rest of the world. What must be done in the future to produce such horrific results?
Re:Facial recognition software, anyone? (Score:3, Insightful)
Something like this happens, and suddenly we're more willing to be lax on our liberties.
We can't let events like this damage the values and ideals that we live by. If we do, then they win.
This is not a terrorist attack (Score:1, Insightful)
A joint attack on WTC and Pentagon, the major financial and military centers in the U.S., is a direct physical attack against the practicioners of capitalism, and the command/control center of the organization that defends them. The method of attack also demonstrates the inherent weakness of skyscrapers and jumbo jets, two more vital pieces of infrastructure.
If we don't actually go to war over this, I will be more than surprised.
Re:Plea for peace (Score:2, Insightful)
I'll rephrase:
Retaliation will not reach those who performed these attacks -- they are dead.
Retaliation will cause more hatred, resulting in more terrorists and terrorism.
Retaliation can not eliminate terrorism.
Please note, I am not arguing against justice. I hope that when we find out who is responsible for these acts, they will receive the punishment due to them for their dastardly attacks on innocent people.
I *am* arguing against a reliance on retaliation as the solution to terrorism. Terrorism doesn't spring out of nothing. People aren't born terrorist. We need to find and deal with the *causes* of terrorism rather than just reacting to *acts* of terrorism. That's what I meant about moving it to a *different* *arena*.
Our responsibility does not end when we find those responsible for the terrorist acts. We must take responsibility for finding out which acts and attitudes encourage terrorism, and eradicate them wherever they occur. We must be careful not to teach that unrestrained violence is the best solution. How many of the world's terrorists have developed their abilities while they were US-supported freedom fighters?
Yes, there will always be *some* terrorism. We must *always* justly punish the acts of terrorism. But punishment alone will not eradicate terrorism. And if it becomes vengeance rather than just punishment, then we are actually encouraging more terrorism.
If we can change our arrogant national attitude, we will give others less cause for terrorism. It's much better to prevent terrorism than to punish terrorism.
closing down... (Score:1, Insightful)
I can see how it is important for the immediate areas surrounding the disaster, and for other areas where there is a threat. However, I think a lot of places are over reacting. You can't just close down the country.
Re:I hope... (Score:2, Insightful)
AMEN! You set off a bomb, kill a few people, maybe a couple hundred - you might get away without retaliation. You destroy the World Trade Center Towers, smash a plane into the Pentagon, and kill thousands of Americans - you've gone to war with the United States. Whoever you are, you may be pretty happy with yourself, but you can't imagine what an event like this will do to the American psyche, ESPECIALLY if it was an Arab sect that did this (and even if it wasn't - Palestinians dancing in the streets???). Support for a free Palestine? GONE. Somewhat restrained responses to things like the Saudi apt bombings, the USS Cole Bombing? GONE. Americans don't take attacks like this lightly. One guy with a truck bomb changed the way America viewed terrorism and safety. This event will have a much broader impact.
All I know is IF bin Laden did this AND the Taliban continue to turn a blind eye, I for one will happily press the launch button of an ICBM to level the whole freaking country. No pin point attack with minimal collatoral damage - you harbor a terrorist you ARE a terrorist. Yeah, yeah, nukes, fallout, sucks for neighbroing countries and I realize that but you have to realize that many Americans WILL have these inflamed feelings and they won't be thinking about 'innocents' Call us hypocrits, callous, whatever. But if President Bush (first time I've called him that!) wants to drop every freaking conventional bomb we have on a country that knowingly harbored the people that did this - amen. If it was an American group that did this - I'll pull the switch myself or behappy to load the rifles.
My only hope is perhaps this will show missle defense to be the joke it is and maybe we can apply the billions Bush wants to spend on it on other more important things like finding the bastards that did this and improving security where we can without living in a police state. Oh - and I for one am MORE than happy to take a few billion from Missle defense, Social Security, WHATEVER to rebuild the World Trade Center in ALL its glory - we will NOT be cowed.
Re:Plea for peace (Score:2, Insightful)
As for the original plea for peace, bullies and cowards, one in the same show there true colors when the tables are turned. Those that cheer the this country's hardship as victory need to feel the fear that they would impose upon us, so that they do not perform the same actions. Perhaps it is an endless cycle, but only because those that have been shown mercy mistake it for weakness.
John F. Hurst
'strength exists where the will has defeated pain'
Re:Plea for peace (Score:5, Insightful)
I remember when OKC happened Rush LImbaugh started calling for bombing of "whoever is responsible". Once we found that it was an American and that bombing "whoever is responsible" meant bombing Michigan Rush shut up. I guess killing innocent people is much more palatable in Iran or Iraq then Michigan.
In the end our tendency to look at Arab and Muslim life as basically worthless will determine the scope of the attack. Not the desire to punish the people who are actually guilty. My guess is many many innocent people will die as a result of our retaliation which will make us exactly like the monsters who committed these crimes.
Re:But it *doesn't* solve things (Score:5, Insightful)
[disclaimer: I'm Scots, posting from Scotland]
What's scary about this is that the perpetrators did not need access to a 'greater array of weaponry'. While the US President commits huge sums of money, and breaches solemn international treaty obligations, to develop missile defence, the perpetrators were able to use fifty tons of aviation fuel that they didn't even have to pay for. Who needs a suitcase bomb, when you've got domestic aircraft?
This was a superbly well organised and executed operation on the part of the perpetrators, whoever they were, but it was also an incredibly cheap one. I should be surprised if the whole budget for the operation exceeded $100,000.
So what can a government do in response to this? It's easy (and depressing) to predict what Dubya will do - just what so many here are urging him to do. And it's easy to see exactly why it will be counter productive. If the US Government lauches its predictable 'massive strike' against the assumed perpetrators, there will inevitably be enough 'colateral damage' to radicalise a whole new population of people who don't yet hate the US that much. And they'll get together and launch more strikes like todays, because (if you are sufficiently organised, disciplined, ruthless and security conscious) strikes like todays are cheap to mount out of all proportion to the damage they cause.
The US cannot run. It cannot hide. It cannot - ever - protect itself against this sort of thing. It has thousands of miles of coastline, thousands of miles of borders, which it can never effectively monitor. Today shows that wannabe terrorists don't have to smuggle in large quantities of explosives.
For the US as for the rest of the democracies of the world, the only solution to this problem is not to be hated that much. And the only way to not be hated that much is to not act unreasonably. Which means - among other things - that the response to today's event must be strictly limited to individuals who are provably in the direct chain of command to today's event - and not thousands of civilians who just happen to live in the same town.
WTC Contained... (Score:2, Insightful)
Mourning (Score:2, Insightful)
AlpineR
Re:Plea for peace (Score:5, Insightful)
the target does not have to be absolutely accurate. scorching afghanistan and removing it from the map will remove nearly all of bin laden's ground troops and all of his civilian support. it may even make him a target from his own people.
Do you honestly think the people of afghanistan have any clue? Sure, some do, especially within the ruling Taliban government. BUT, many people in afghanistan are not a party to the Taliban. A many people in that nation have taken up arms against the Taliban. Some of them have not forgotten that many Americans and Brits fought alongside them against the Soviets.
Besides, Bin Laden isn't even an afghani, he's a Saudi and his supporters are scattered all over the world. By your grand scheme, we would have to Nuke Iran, Sudan, Yemen, and large portions of Ethiopia, Somalia, and countless other nations.
if you commit a terrorist act, or you know someone that commits or is planning a terrorist act against this country -- you should die. the trickle down effect of this will rid the world of this plague.
OR, you mobilize a couple billion Muslims against you. You kill one innocent, and their family is more likely to become a supporter of Bin Laden then the people who killed their loved one. The more you kill the more you drive into the arms of your enemy. If you don't believe me open any history book. One only needs to look at the numerous examples out there. The rise of Christianity in Ancient Rome, the aforementioned invasion of Afghanistan by the Soviets, the fall of the Khmer Rouge as well as any other Despotic system.
Re:Facial recognition software, anyone? (Score:2, Insightful)
Don't you dare!
If we give up our freedom for security, then we'll just end up as a police state with NO increased safety.
Anyone who can hijack (at least) three planes simultaneously is a PROFESSIONAL, and--just as no car alarm will prevent a pro from taking your vehicle--no amount of jack-booted, machinegun-toting "peace police" stationed on every corner along with cameras and sniffers will protect your butt from terrorists.
Re:I hope... (Score:2, Insightful)
Israel and Palestine have had 50 years to hate each other -- the Protestants and Catholics in Ireland have had about 300. You don't defuse a situation like that by bombing the hell out of one side (we know, Thatcher did her best).
Peace and reconciliation is, in the long run, the only way forward.
The biggest thing the American government can do now is say 'What have we done to these people? How have the affected their lives so badly that they will kill themselves just to hurt our civilians? How can *we* change *our* behaviour so that something like this never happens again.'
But they won't. They'll pick some small, badly defended country, and have a one-sided TV war so all the folks back home can sit back and see that Uncle Sam is *sorting them bastards out*. And the whole thing will start all over again.
Don't make the US into Zimbabwe. Make it into South Africa.
Re:Plea for peace (Score:4, Insightful)
Keep that in mind as the US retaliates.
Re:Predictions (Score:5, Insightful)
A co-worker and I did the math on this. You need a minum of 4 people, 8 for better success. They have to coordinate... But: If they are people working at air ports (in bagadge handling or cleaning) they can get a weapon(s) on a plane. Security at US airports isn't exactly tight. Then you need someone who can fly an aircraft enough to steer, not take it off or land it. After take off, the armed party goes to the front bathroom, slips into the cockpit kills both pilots, and locks the door (or there is another person there for crowd control). You need one, but more likely two people per plane. In a country of 300 million, with our freedoms you have to look out for 8 guys.
--
locust
Re:Plea for peace (Score:4, Insightful)
"Vietnam", "Afghanistan", "Retreat from Russia"
In the latter, the Russian winter beat back Napolean, in the first two terrorism was able to hang on for years in the face of an aggressor.
>This requires a huge, huge response. The aggressors set the rules. At the very least, invasion of the country that either
>sponsored, or allowed to happen, this terrorism must be made.
We don't know this was state sponsored. Clearly if it was, that country is in the deepest doo-doo imaginable. But it is most likely that this is done by a relatively small group of people; and may very well not be state related at all.
If you really believe that invasion of the country that allowed this to happen should be done, what happens if that country unknowably turns out to be Canada?
Nostradamus (Score:2, Insightful)
Wasnt there some prediction about a great conflict involving world powers would be started by a man in a blue turban, who killed with fire in the sky ?
Re:Franklin D. Roosevelt's Pearl Harbor Speech (Score:2, Insightful)
PEARL HARBOR:
1. Japan attacked us and we knew for sure.
2. 3,581 were either killed, went missing, wounded, or those who died of their wounds.
3. The attack was on a Military base not on the U.S. soil directly.
TODAY:
1. We don't know exactly who did it. I have my feelings it was Osama bin Laden based a warning he gave the U.S. in which we would receive an "unprecidented" attack.
2. I'm estimating around 53894 people died today. Breaking down the number:
3. The attack was on a Civilian, Government and Military buildings ON the U.S. soil directly.
Loss of Life and Perspective (Score:5, Insightful)
No, it's not. It's an act of terrorism. There's an enormous difference, a lesson that Vietnam taught us, and that you've apparently forgotten.
> Peace did not stop Hitler; peace did not stop the Axis Powers.
This would be a great analogy if it was accurate, but it isn't. Nations cannot operate without infrastructure, but most terrorist organizations can. You're fighting a different animal, and the weapon that's most effective against one can be entirely ineffective against the other. Think of trying to use an elephant gun (good against elephants, naturally) to kill a swarm of bees, and you'll get the idea.
> If viable proof of guilt of Osama bin Laden is brought forth,
> and the Taliban refuses to turn him over to the United States, then
> they are an accomplice to an act of war and should be dealt with
> appropriately.
What if they aren't really harboring him? Or what if they are? What would be an appropriate response to that? Invasion? Do you really think that the rest of the world will stand idly by and watch us annex Afghanistan? Do you really think that this incident warrants a war against Iran and Iraq? How about Russia? How about China? Both world wars started over annexations of territory, and in both wars nations with no initial stake were eventually pulled in (like the U.S. in WWI, which we entered because of our alliance with Britain and France). The number of Americans that would die in World War III would eclipse the deaths today within weeks.
> There must be a message sent to the world that terrorist actions
> against the United States will be met with such an incredible and
> unimaginably horrific response, than no one sane, fanatical, insane,
> or otherwise would even conceive of the idea.
Get your temper back in check and read that again. Sane people don't use terrorism, and fanaticals and the insane don't care about consequences. So, our "horrific response" will only serve to turn the collateral damage victims into more enemies.
> It is time to obliterate those who would cause this to happen
> using every means at our disposal, including the most destructive
> and horrific weapons ever developed by man. If some civilians die
> along the way, they are unfortunate casualties of war.
It is almost astonishing that your comment reflects very closely the words used by Timothy McVeigh in describing his destruction of the Murrah building. But then, it's not that astonishing after all, in that you're advocating the same sort of terrorism as he was ("if the (fill-in-the-blank) government is going to protect people who commit crimes against the (fill-in-the-blank) people, then I'm justified in killing them and anyone else who happens to get in the way, and I'll call them "unfortunate casualties of war" because it soothes my sense of justice and makes my position less abhorrent").
Until you (and many more like you) realize that fighting terrorism isn't just about brute force, we as a nation are destined to suffer from more of these attacks. Fighting terrorism is a high art form, and it can be done with a high degree of success, but it's never perfect, and it's never about simple military might. Read more about counter-terrorism, and you'll be surprised (and educated) by what you find.
Virg
Tragical and sobering (Score:3, Insightful)
My position
I will write this in first person, as the thoughts and opinions here are expressed as mine only. When I say "you", I mean you personally, when I say USA, I mean the country as it exists in legal term. I strongly differentiate between the country that you live in and you personaly.
What do I see
I don't know who commited this crime, but I don't see them completely unprovoked. The choice of the day itself (international peace day) hints, that it might not be immediately connected to recent events on UN racism conference, but rather something that can be shown as direct result of USA policy of involving in every regional conflict in last decade. Playing the role of world police and trying to establish new world order isn't something that will go down lightly with vast majority of world population. Even if this resolves to be act of internal terrorism (like OC bombing was) it means that USA is growing more and more extremist by the day. Could you imagine something like this happening in the land of truly free?
What I think about it
For the most of the world I would say that it has it's feelings mixed. I, for one, am fed over my head with all of your freedom exports as of lately and think this might be clear signal that USA is trying to do what no country is (or ever should) be allowed to do. On the other hand I do not condone this way of acting in any way justifiable. World policing is something that UN was designed to do and internal freedoms and rights are something that USA seems to be failing in, but this kind of response is never justified.
What do I mean with mixed feelings
For one, I cheer, that civilians in USA are meeting the horror and uncertainty of war. UN general secretary Gali once said for Sarajevo, there's 13 places in the world were the have it worse. This time the civilians in USA for the first time in their history get the chance to experience the fact that there is no other place on Earth where it's worse. They are targeted to change the politics of their country. They are simply used as tools to achieve the goal. And at the end of the day, they are the only ones that could change the policy of the country as a whole. But before you cry that this is wrong and this will only achieve opposite effects, let me assure you, that you are right. This way of acting will never achieve the desired result unless the enemy is overhelmingly stronger. This time the enemy has showed it has weapon of FUD readily available and is capable of using it. Do you really think that you country (assuming your from the USA) really did something else when decided to bomb Yugoslavia? Can you honestly say you didn't target your war aginst civil population in order to destabilize the government? Can you really claim that power plants, car production lines, television station offices, bridges, and other things you managed to destroy or disable aren't civilian targets? In what way does USA justification of the way that it handled that war differ from justification that someone (be it international or internal) will use in its defence?
Since I'm so smart, what do you want us to do?
Can you honestly expect that harsh retaliation (while the bodies are still warm) will solve anything expect serve to prolong the conflict? If that someone will be taken to court, then things will have to be proven; exhibits A and B will be presented; judgement will be passed and sentence will be executed. This is the way things are done. This is the way that equality works. When taken to international stage, USA will probably act as sole judge, jury and executioner. What makes you think, that it morally can. If some country just did this and you're saying it's wrong, what makes you right? Rule of the mob?
And what would I do?
If I would be you (but I'm obviously not), I wouldn't be thinking about revenge (revenge for what exactly?), but I would rather be thinking abut helping those in need. I would be thinking about saying a pray for those dead. I would be thinking about correct course of action after taking care of this. If I would be president of USA, I wouldn't be talking about hunting down the enemy, I would be talking about helping those in need, I would be talking about rebuilding and healing. If I would have the power he has, I wouldn't want to help the thirst for blood, I would want to bring out the good in all the people. Only after that I would be looking to bring justice to whoever did this. Bring justice, not hunt down mind you. Headhunts and public lynch never helped anyone, but correctly executing the justice deterred other from getting help in commiting crimes.
And your point is?
Don't walk around, saying how good/bad this thing is, but the next time elections are around go to the voting booth and tell the country how do you want it to run the business. This will actualy mean that you will alter your behaviour based on some terrorist action, but think about the alternatives. Do you want to live in real FUD state (as in state of mind) or do you want to influence the politics to minimize the chances of this occuring again. The answer is yours. But bottom line is whether you would rather use this as an excuse to do something abou your whole society, or use this as the point of justifying more violence.
Don't go down the spiral of violence. Don't retaliate. Don't assume.
Act with thought. Seek international involvement. Check and present all the facts. Take the road of justice.
If you want to know why I put this in bold, it simply because USA haven't shown much it lately. Sometimes the biggest bully on the block just needs to take the cold shower and admit that fists don't solve everything.
Re:Plea for peace (Score:2, Insightful)
And as a result we still hail the glorious Roman republic, which brought us peace and prosperity till this day...
The assumption that there is a small group of evil people and that all we need to do is to somehow neutralize them is naive. Every action leads to a like reaction. By turning on the heat, we are creating more victims, more martyrs, and more potential terrorists. Just look at the current example: Have you ever seen so many people shouting for blood? Any retaliation is likely to wake similar feelings on the other side. Any retaliation that is not extremely limited, well targeted, and justified to the world is likely to cause a lot of justified similar feelings all over the world.
Somebody else already posted the famous Gandhi quote: "An eye for an eye, and the world goes blind".
What I like about this quote is that it shows a certain symmetry. You cannot usually solve a conflict by assuming "I'm right, and I'll just keep on hitting the other guy until he sees the light". Most of the time, being right is a matter of perspective. Very few people consciously do deeds they consider evil.
Re:Remember the past (Score:5, Insightful)
no, its childish and immature - to retaliate, to lash out wildly is idiotic.
Re:Peace ? (Score:3, Insightful)
The fact that they have reached a point that hijacking planes and crashing them into highly-populated office buildings seems like a good idea. Do you think they have any common ground with their targets? Do you think their greivances are so large that this kind of action can be justified?
Dancin Santa
Americanization (Score:3, Insightful)
It seems that many people, especially those outside the US, are susggesting that this attack was some sort of retaliation for crimes the US commits against the world. I am American. I am not always proud of everything the US does. It is stupidity to say that any country had this coming.
Comments about America inflicting itself can only be taken seriously to a point. Yes, many American companies are "invading" other countries. But the people there buy it. No one is forced to buy food at McDonalds or drink Coca-Cola. The same thing happens in the US. Businesses I previously patroned are dissappearing and being replaced by things like Starbucks and Blockbuster. I say the same thing applies here as anywhere else. If you don't like a business, don't give it your money. If you don't like Hollywood being "imposed" on your country, don't see any Hollywood films. Encourage others to do the same. In the end, the people get what they want. If they want Americanization, it will certainly find them. It is easier to blame America than it is to blame the people who let our evil nation "invade" yours.
I would also like to point out that every world power has been viewed negatively by the less powerfull. Before America it was the European Powers. It is always easy to tell America what to do when you only have to consider the consequences outside of America. If you are not American, you will not understand how the consequences will affect us.
Re:visit a mosque (Score:4, Insightful)
That said, I know enough to know that it is ONLY the most radical and a minority of Islamics who preach violence. Most, if not all, condemn such CSCB terrorist acts. It would be victory for the chicken-shit-coward-bastard (CSCB)-terrorists if they could take these sad events and make us hate our Islamic neihbor.
While we may disagree about God and country, I would prefer to debate our differences over some cold beer and hummus, as opposed to hot lead and fire.
Insurance Concerns (Score:4, Insightful)
And of course we have the World Trade Center towers themselves, who are probably insured for billions.
Well, watching CNN and various other news channels, I keep seeing that many politicians and journalists are calling this "an act of war"
Folks, what is the one thing that almost no life or property insurance policies cover? You guessed it: WAR!
We're going to have possibly tens of thousands of families who depended upon a primary wage-earner to survive. These families could potentially be told by insurance companies, "Sorry, but we don't have to provide coverage for your loved ones. It was war...".
Additionally, we will have whatever group of investors counts on rental income from the WTC go completely to pot, because their property insurance on the buildings will echo the same sentiment.
As far as I'm concerned, this isn't an act of war, it's an act of terrorism. The "war" clause in insurance policies is there as a last resort... it's meant to protect the insurance companies if half the major cities in the US get nuked to the ground. But I have no doubt that many of these companies will try to use this clause to their advantage.
I'm going to be sending a letter to my Senators and Representatives in a few days (obviously they have more important things on their minds right now) urging them to pass a temporary law that prevents insurance companies from pulling these sorts of sh> igans. I urge everyone else to do the same.
Recollections, Terrorism and Retribution (Score:3, Insightful)
But, let's look at this for what it is, pure cowardise designed to strike terror in the hearts of people who have done no harm to anyone. The dead and wounded are people who were going to work, visiting relatives, or going home. They are people, much like those who have experienced terror at the hands of fanatics simply for living in a land whose government the fanatics deplore. There is no rational for the killing of innocent people. Anyone who thinks otherwise are clearly not of sound mind or thinking in a manner that western civilization can not comprehend.
The United States takes a lot of blame for some of the stances it takes on many issues. The same United States provided food, shelter, medicine and other humanitarian assistance to many nations that are incapable of doing so themselves during a disaster or national emergency. The United States provides assistance to nations who fall prey to aggression from outside nations such as the invasion of Kuwait by Iraq or the killing of the Kurds by Iraq. They do so because of treaties, agreements, national interest or purely on moral grounds.
Where would these people be if the United States and other nations stood idly by and did absolutely nothing? What would happen if the United States simple turned a blind eye to the plights of millions because of a few ignorant or fanatical people?
I do not know who is responsible for this attrocity. And, I strongly feel that once the identity of the those response are discovered, that no expense be spared until they are either brought to justice of meet their maker. But, I also implore that we don't take to the streets and exact revenge on anyone simple because of their heritage. We need to rise above the feelings of anger and hate.
Let's find out who is truly responsible for this attack and then make it clear, by our very strong actions, that terrorism will not be tolerated. Let those governments and individuals that support terrorism know that we have had enough and we will exercise our might to erratic them at all costs.
But, for now, let's pray for those who perished and their families. Tomorrow, we fight back against those that did this to us. Then, it will be time to grieve and remember so that this does not happen again.
Re:Remember the past (Score:2, Insightful)
easy to say until someone you know is involved.
Re:Predictions (Score:2, Insightful)
At worst, some sort of key-escrow proposal will be put forward, but would take so long to implement, that people will have cooled down and saner heads will previal.
The thing to watch out for is a SSSCA-like law being passed under the guise of protecting us from terrorists.
Re:Remember the past (Score:3, Insightful)
Just out of curiosity, since you seem to be so in favor of appeasing these criminals. If you walked into your house and watched your wife being raped, and your daughter was apparently next, would you consider it "childish and immature" to retaliate against them to keep them from further damaging your loved ones?
Or would you walk up to them and try to "negotiate" with them? Plead with them to just leave you alone?
Here's a gun. Would you just watch them as they began on your daughter?
Re:Predictions (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Remember the past (Score:2, Insightful)
Misinformation (Score:3, Insightful)
The cloud wouldn't extend that far. However, papers from the blast were seen miles away, and a reporter ten blocks from the explosions said he could taste the dust in the air.
Re:News from Internet Exchange in SoHo (Score:2, Insightful)
Let's look at it briefly and distinguish the dirty, blind propaganda and actual reality:
They recklessly inspire anti-U.S. sentiment in every other country in this world
It's not every country of the world. Only those that have dictatorships or socialist fundamental governments that spew out propaganda about how deprived Western society is and how good it is to be a slave with no wages no food and no human rights (Iraq, Somalia, Africa, Cambodia, so on...).
we blockade Cuba for no good reason
I don't think that anyone who knows history wouldn't argue this. We blocked Cuba in 60s in repsponse to Russians installing nuclear warheads aimed at the US on the island. Avoiding globar thermo-nuclear reason is a pretty damn good reason to me.
we starve the children of Iraq
WE? US starves children of Iraq? I am sorry but the reason why chidlren in Iraq are starving is because of the dictatorhip regime that rules that country and has a point in keeping people suffer without food and human rights in a country where you have to say you hate USA and love the great leader, otherwise your family disappears and you get a bullet in your head.
And anybody who sits by and pays taxes and watches our imperialistic military (...)
Excuse me, but I read words like that before from the mouths of people liek Stalin, Hitler, Saddam, Khaddafi, and all other fundamental radicalist groups that are the ones who kill women and children, who chop people to death with machetes, who bomb schools, malls, cinemas.
Think about it, that's not a historical note, that's something that you try to put into small kids heads in Syria, Palestine, Iraq, Libya, so when they grow up they can kill thousands of INNOCENT people and feel right about it.
Re:Three Step Loop: ID, Locate, Eradicate (Score:5, Insightful)
This is not state-based terrorism. This is a small group of fanatics. Your stupid, stupid tactic would make it a war.
Terrorism is cyclical, not a three step process. You are attacked, you get angry, you retaliate. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.
Look at Ireland, the Middle East, etc. Do you want our grandchildren to still be fighting the same damn "war"?
We wait. We continue to work. We find the black boxes, the voice recorders, we investigate. Those that did it are on the run. They are in hiding, and think we don't know where they are. Let they sweat a little. When we have the evidence, when the world knows, then we act. Maybe not even violently - put them in front of the same court as Millosevich, make them stand trial.
Above all, we show that we are rational humans, and not dogs that bite because we were bit.
Cowardly? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Facial recognition software, anyone? (Score:2, Insightful)
I've quoted this before, and I'll quote it again.
"Those who would trade their essential Liberty for a perceived temporary Security deserve neither Liberty nor Security." --Benjamin Franklin.
Re:Plea for peace (Score:4, Insightful)
Not that I'm condoning violence in any ay shape or form, (this act was utter atrocity), but your statement about Palestinians and immediately assuming they're responsible is bare-faced racism just like you accuse them of condoning. we have to remember at this time No group has claimed responsiblity and Arafat and even the Taliban have denounced the act. It is still unknown which group carried out the attack, and (I'm going to get modded down here), but the chance even holds that it could even be an American group (however small). We need to stop pointing fingers until there is sufficient evidence that this was an attack by group X.
We need to focus on the aftermath and helping the survivors, and sadly I'm over half a continent and a closed border away or I'd be out there now. I hope we can put it behind us and work on the task at hand first, before condemning potentially innocent groups.
Re:Predictions (Score:2, Insightful)
Why not try and propose a solution to the debacle we're going to face in the near-term, rather than parrot your overzealous liberal peers?
Re:Prophesized by Nostradamus? (Score:2, Insightful)
Will people stop it with the Nostradamus posts already? I can't imagine that NYC would be considered the City of God, and who exactly are the two brothers? There will be no world war unless we find out this attack was sanctioned by a specific country, which I consider very unlikely.
Re:Inadequate fire protection systems (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:What Every American Must Know (Score:1, Insightful)
Deinhard
Pearl Harbor (Score:4, Insightful)
For those who don't seek vengeance, I can only say that you are likely not living in America. There will be a reckoning. Whoever did this, and it's looking like Bin Ladin, will be found an eradicated. Whoever is harboring them will be eradicated. Whoever defends them will be eradicated. War is now inevitable.
Good may eventually come of it, as good did eventually come from Pearl Harbor and WWII. But for the time being, we will be mobilizing, preparing for war. We were shocked. Now we are angry.
And anyone who says that we're going to war because "Bush is crzy enough to start one" as I've heard people say (though haven't looked closely on the forum here) is dead wrong. We will be going because it's the right thing to do. We need, firstly, to show the world that we will not be shaken by this, and to show the world what happens when you fsck with the USA. Any potential president, Bush, Gore, Nader, Bud Brown, Clinton, anyone would be looking for a perpetrator right now with the intent to kill. We can see this.
From a purely political standpoint, the nation is calling for vengeance. Any preisdent who sought re-election for himself or anyone in his party would commit political suicide otherwise.
This is edited slightly for content, mostly for length:
"The United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked. The United States was at Peace with the world. We have been looking towards the maintenacne of world peace. This attack was deliberately planned days or even weeks ago. The attack on our cities has caused damage to civilians and economic centers. Very many America lives have been lost.
The facts, so far, today speak for themselves. The American people have already formed their opinions, and well undertstand the implications to the very life and safety of our nation. The commander in chief has directed our forces in our defense. Always, will our whole nation remember the character of the onslaught against us.
No matter how long it may take us to overcome this premeditated invasion, the America people in their righteous might will win through to absolute victory. We will not only defend ourselves to the uttermost, but we will make certain that this form of treachery shall never again endanger us again. We will gain the inevitable triumph, so help us God.
This was an unprovoked and dastardly attack on the united states."
Franklin D. Roosevelt, December 8, 1941
December 7, 1941. A day that has lived on in infamy. September 11, 2001 will live on in infamy now as well.
Never again. Never.
Re:WILL EVERYBODY STOP WITH THE TURBAN THING? (Score:2, Insightful)
Who did we immediately suspect bombed the Oklahoma City building? Arab extremists. But no, it was an American!
We shouldn't retaliate until we get more facts on who did this. THEN kill the motherfuckers.
quack. waddle. feather-ruffle. (Score:1, Insightful)
Corollary: You act like a terrorist you ARE a terrorist. There are plenty of Afghani people who are every bit as innocent as an accounting secretary temp on the 43rd floor.
I sincerely hope that this event will cause some people to realize that violence begets nothing but violence, and that pacifism is the only moral choice.
Re:Predictions (Score:2, Insightful)
In times like this, the LAST thing your country needs is fear-mongerers like you spreading FUD. What it needs is blood donations. So can the doomsday garbage that we've all seen a thousand times before, every time there's a Columbine or a Lockerbie. It's CRAP, people are smarter than you give them credit for, and you're really annoying.
Re:Facial recognition software, anyone? (Score:3, Insightful)
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/7931
Compromise the security people themselves, by having your own people as security moles. They see their friends coming through, they don't mention what they see on the X-ray. I don't know enough about airport security to guess the difficulties involved.
I remember seeing Coolio on a talk show saying that he used to work airport security at LAX when he was a crackhead. Seriously. If you can get and hold down a job as airport security while addicted to crack then pretty much anything's possible. And it's probably not very hard to bribe any current crackheads on the job.
Preventing a Martial Law/Police State backlash (Score:2, Insightful)
I am taking a pre-emptive strike against that, and I invite you all to join in. The fun part is, it's all completely non-violent and legal. All you kill are trees.
I am writing my congressman and senators. I ask other Slashdotters to do the same. You can find them and their mailing addresses at www.house.gov [house.gov] and www.senate.gov [senate.gov].
You will want to snailmail them on this one. Snailmail seems to have more impact on legislators than email.
Come up with your own wording, or use my words below as a template (or even literally--I don't mind).
Re:Airlines chosen (Score:3, Insightful)
You still think like somebody who fears to die. They don't. They *want* to die for what they believe in.
I wish you all well America, I feel for you. (Score:2, Insightful)
I feel great sorrow also for the victims and families.
I wish their was something I could say that would make it better, but everyone I know also feels the same as I here in Canada.
I hope these terrorists get what they got coming to them!!
Ted
reply (Score:2, Insightful)
What has occured is an attack against humanity.
no-one, no-one has a right to sponsor such an act. This is not an act against america, this is an act against humanity. I echo previous responses: give blood this is the greatest reponse that an individual can make. By giving blood, we show these scum that humanity stands against such acts, that regardless of who it is that has suffered, there is no justification for such an act of unmitigated BASTARDRY!
these terrorists have spent some time sorting out their actions.
They knew what they were doing. They have no excuse for their actions. I'm not the greatest fan of the US, but nothing deserves this kind of response. By giving blood you are making a supremely important statement. I support the people that suffered this indiscriminate attack.
I support the human beings that were innocently caught up in a blatantly political action. These people may deserve to lose their BMW's, but not their lives
Give Blood, that is the greatest individual humanitarian statement you can make to show your condemnation of this inhuman action!!!
I thought that I would be less angry by now... (Score:2, Insightful)
A) the Americans who are sitting in front of their screens, enjoying the freedoms that they have long ago taken for granted in this country, and have the audacity to say that we are to blame for this attack, or that we had it coming, or that our way of life is "oppressive" and "evil". It is exactly this sort of thought that has led to the weakening of this country over the last eight years, and allowed this tragedy to happen.
B) those Europeans (not all who have posted here, but some) who are sitting in front of their screens, enjoying the freedoms that they have only because America came to their rescue back in WWII, and have the audacity to mock our country and what it stands for after this attack. You'd think that they'd be more understanding, given the incidents of terrorism that happen in their own countries.
C) those who wasted no time in blithely blaming President Bush for this incident because he is an "evil" Republican. How insane. If anyone or anything is to blame for this, it is the Clinton Administration. Yes, I know that you have been avoiding the truth, but it was because of the Clinton Administration that the military and intelligence agencies in this country were emasculated to the point of ineffectiveness. It was the Clinton Administration that sat idly by while terrorists such as Osama Bin-Laden, who is overwhelmingly likely to have perpetrated this incident, ran free with little more than a slap on the wrist. It was the Clinton Administration who presided over the transformation of Political Correctness from the exception to the rule in this country and effectively neutered our moral resolve. IMHO, this set of circumstances, which led to this terrorist attack, is the TRUE LEGACY of the Clinton Administration. So, sure, just keep on blaming Bush to your little heart's content, but if you do, you will know that you are in denial of the truth.
I kept reading this morning about how this tragedy was going to unite this country and strengthen its resolve, but after reading the posts on
Now that I've spilled my guts for the last time today, I'm going to stay away from
Re:Three Step Process: ID, Locate, Eradicate (Score:3, Insightful)
Thereby becoming a less-free society, which is exactly their goal. When the police begin to violate the laws, and everybody has less freedom, the terrorists have won.
And in the process, you've made some new martyrs for their cause. Do you really think death frightens people who are willing to kamikaze the WTC? Irrelevancy frightens them. Dying of old age in prison frightens them. Being killed by infidels makes them happy.