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The Kid Who Wouldn't Be King (UPDATED)
from the -a-jaw-dropping-tale-from-the-Hellmouth dept.
From the Daily Breeze:
"Manhattan Beach Unified School District Superintendent Jerry Davis said school and district officials stand behind the suspension. 'There's always consequences for actions," Davis said. "We believe it disrupted homecoming activities ..." (It would be interesting to know if the Unified School District knows that George Washington refused the offer of the Contintental Congress to be the first American King.)
"Suspension papers signed by Griffiths and the school principal charged that the 17-year-old Griffiths 'disrupted school activities or otherwise willfully defied the valid authority of supervisors, teachers, administrators, school officials or other school personnel engaged in the performance of their duties.' Other offenses that warrant suspension include gun possession, drug use, theft or destruction of school property, and physical violence."
"Griffiths was a member of one of the six couples who lined up with their parents during halftime of last Friday's football game to hear the royal announcements. When his name was called as homecoming king, he placed his crown on the field and walked away. He later said he had planned all along to make some sort of statement about the warped value system in schools like his (Mira Costa High School) if he was elected king, but he never dreamed he would win. 'The idea of winning was so far-fetched,' he said. 'I knew I'd have a fair amount of support from the downtrodden, my friends. I'm just trying to get more people to think about and re-evaluate what we value and if [contests like] homecoming should be encouraged.'" says the Daily Breeze story.
He returned to school this week. His parents are considering legal action to force the school to expunge the suspension from his academic record. Griffiths isn't a classic victim. He was definitely poking the bear, but in a good cause. He said he welcomed any and all media attention because he wants to use the spotlight to encourage people to think about the way schools promote popularity contests and pit students against one another. "They martyred me," he said. "Which was a great thing."
Instead of a suspension, Griffiths ought to get an award for challenging the insane culture facing so many individualistic kids in American schools. Students like Griffiths have few if any Constitutional rights. They have no privacy or right to due process, and are routinely sent home, suspended, or forced into "special education" programs for dressing oddly, speaking honestly, or playing the wrong kind of computer games. As he was trying to point out, the pressure to conform, be normal and popular is enormous -- creating environments that are hostile and alienating to people outside the mainstream. This ethos has hit bright, idiosyncratic and creative kids especially hard, as the volumes of Hellmouth messages testify so eloquently.
So here's to Patrick Griffiths, who deserves better than his own school. He's a hero in the classic American sense, and in the country's best traditions of thinking freely, daring to be different, and willing to pay the price.
Author's Note: The source material for this column was the Daily Breeze paper linked to above, a wire story, and about 20 e-mails, including two from local reporters urgingme to write about this. Reading over this now I can see there is a paragraph that should have quotes from the Daily Breeze [note: since corrected -- t]. I didn't do it because I probably used material from the wire story and/or because it was linked. The comments, opinions and language about the story are obviously mine, since the point was to write about the issues he raised and the conformity question, which the paper and the others didn't raise.
Don't play if you don't want to win. (Score:5)
This kid was just plain selfish. He could have given everyone a voice who couldn't speak for themself, and instead he wanted to show off that he could walk away.
A suspension, however, is totally out of line for this sort of thing. He should have been escorted out and a new king chosen on the spot. But a suspension is uncalled for.
this just shows (Score:5)
a kid comes along and wants to reject these values, and not only can they not accept it, but they fear it enough to pronounce him guilty of "disrupting school activities" which of course is usually code for "we didn't like the way he looked" but in this case has been expanded to "we didn't like the way he thought."
pezpunk
Internet killed the video star,
This is outrageous (Score:5)
Also, I hope the administrators at Mira Costa are named personally in the suit, as well. Their disruptive activity by failing to use appropriate channels to "express dissatisfaction" with this student should not go unpunished.
Scary (Score:5)
Way to go. Get an early start preparing the kid for the kind of open-ended "don't interfere with authority" laws he will experience as an adult. In 15 years, when the no-knock warrantless search comes based on the flimisiest excuse for probable cause, he'll already know just how far over to bend.
The schoolboard's reaction... (Score:5)
The kid's actions are slightly reminiscent of John Carlos and Tommy Smith at the '68 Olympics, although I'm sure he wasn't afraid of being picked off by a sniper.
Free speech has its place, and must be protected. I applaud this high schooler for his display of non-violent civil disobedience.
---
Re:Don't play if you don't want to win. (Score:5)
The approach he took got his message out much more effectively. Would we be discussing this incident here on Slashdot if he had merely made a speech?
Poking the bear (Score:5)
Unless I'm mistaken, bestiality is against the law in most states. He's lucky he just got suspended -- he could have been clawed to death.
Journalistic Ethics (Score:3)
Does Katz seriously believe that his commentary about the suspension of Patrick Griffiths won't be noticed as the wholesale, unattributed lifting of somebody else's work [dailybreeze.com] that it is?
Open Source is about the willing participation of creators in the distribution, modification, and enhancement of their work. We do not take; we accept what is freely given.
Re:Nerds 7, Jocks 0. (Score:3)
My friends and I played role-playing games in high school, we liked to mess with the computers. A wild Saturday night was some Pepsi, pizza, and a game of Starfleet Battles.
We also played varsity football, basketball, and track. We were in the weight room three days a week.
People who thought they were "nerds" thought we were "jocks". The people who thought they were "jocks" thought we were "nerds". I had a lot of fun playing sports and a lot of fun in other activities. You only hurt yourself by letting someone label you.
Re:Its high school big deal (Score:3)
Maybe the college of his choice is iffy on him and decides to reject his application based on his suspension. That decision of the college admissions board could send his life down an entirely different path.
I sometimes think about how different my life would be now had something been different at those critical junctures in my life... meeting my wife... getting into college... taking my first professional job. Any small change would mean a huge difference now.
So yes, he deserves to have this removed from his records.
-S
Democracy in action (Score:5)
True, but no one would have heard about it. When making a political statement it is important to be seen, and heard. How does one win the congressional election? By out spending all the other candidates in advertising.
The suspension was probably more an act of self defense by an insecure school official that a response to a legitimate threat to the learning atmosphere. How dare someone make a political statement at my school. What would happen if the students realized they have more power in the school than me? Although extreme there are probably the thoughts running through the official's heads. They couldn't tolerate not having control. And to think, the reason America has public schools is to ensure that we have an education so we participate in a democracy
The Superintendent's Position (Score:5)
Superintendent Davis said that if Griffiths didn't like the homecoming court selection process, he could have spoken to student government leaders, the school newspaper or any administrator on campus.
"There are many opportunities for any student to express dissatisfaction at Mira Costa," he said. "(Griffiths) was within the organization that plans homecoming. At no time did he express dissatisfaction with the process or the program. That's where it should have been expressed and dealt with."
Griffiths said he figured renouncing his crown at the homecoming game would make the strongest statement
So, he got suspended for voicing his opinion publicly. Sure, it was probably a disruption to the ceremony to have him walk away. If I were handing out the crown, I'm sure I wouldn't have known how to address the crowd at that point--but to suspend him? That's a bit much.
Besides, if he had spoken out to administrators, what would've happened? He would've been removed from the team he was on, someone else elected, and no one would've given it a second thought--except him. His voice would've been silenced before it could be heard.
Martin Luther King Jr. would be proud (Score:3)
You want your record *EXPUNGED* ?!?!?!?! (Score:5)
Sweet Athene, you went to all that effort to make a protest, and now you want them to expunge the record? Are you NUTS?
By all that's holy, I'd demand a copy and get it FRAMED. I'd write a manefesto railing against the poverty of culture in highschool, staple copies of the record to the top, and include it in my college applications.
Do you understand how good this could make you look to college admissions officers?? (At the good schools -- Podunk State would be scared, but MIT would love it.)
I wish I'd thought of this when applying to college!
Making a statement (Score:3)
In other words, its fine to express disatisfaction when no one will listen and only a small group will hear. But if you want to make a statement that the whole school will hear, you aren't allowed to express your opinion in the means that you desire.
Its people like superintendent Davis that want to destroy freedom of speech.
No violence was involved. No insults were involved. Nothing libelous or slanderous was said. The kid made a statement by not saying anything and walking away and the school administration isn't mature enough to just deal with it. They feel the need to retaliate like spurned high school socialites.
have a day,
-l
Pig Blood... (Score:3)
=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Re:For the sake of non-U.S. Slashdot readers... (Score:5)
There is an election in the fall, at the high school footbal (American Footbal that is) homecoming game, the announcement of the winner is made, and the homecoming king and queen are announced.
The a screen is dragged around them while they consumate their victory.
No, wait, that last part is from a video I rented, Homecoming sluts.
geeks arent always the victims of elitism.. (Score:4)
Don't believe it? Try going into a linux channel on IRC and asking a 'newbie' question...If you're lucky, you'll just get kicked. Usually you'll be insulted and then kick banned...
Try asking Tom Christisen anything about perl...
Etc...
Most every group is guilty to some degree of the type of terrible 'in-crowd' behaviour that JonKatz always attributes to 'the Jock' types in High School...It just manifests itself slightly differently in different forums.
Re:Don't play if you don't want to win. (Score:5)
Sometimes actions speak louder than words. And I think "speak" really is the correct word in this case. Sure, he could have gotten up and ranted about the whole situation, but to tell the truth, I think not doing anything was a much classier way of handling it. Why is it that this reminds me of Brewster's Millions and his whole "Don't vote for me" campaign?
On that same note, I think that what the kid did can be equated to what some third-party candidates are doing right now. I think some of them will have more of a positive impact on politics by simply running than they would by winning.
I went to school in this District (Score:5)
I would go against the administration whenever I had a chance and they hated it. I would write letters to the editor of the school paper and make other statements when the moment was right. Never disruptive or disrespectful but always pointed.
The result? I was labelled as a problem child and under suspicion. They even told me once 'Just do not publically go against the administration and everything will be fine.' It even went so far as to them threatening to not let me graduate!( As if it were in their power, a fact I pointed out many times ).
Overall, this school district ( Jerry Davis and others ) do not so much hate individuals but rather hate individuals who do not agree with their social program. These are schools that literally have barbed wire fencing around them to keep students in, that discourage any kind of free discussion of school policy etc and are so patronizing to their student bodies that it makes one want to puke.
Until public educators understand that students are PARTNERS in this process we call learning and not SUBJECTS, these sorts of incidents will continue to happen and the truly smart seeds will flee to home schools and private schools. We treat our children like criminals, give them no say in their daily lives and then wonder why they disdain participatory democracy. Its ridiculous.
Anyhow, as someone who has actually EXPERIENCED Jerry Davis I will say that this story, while awesome in that it is getting so much attention, is nothing in comparison to the daily things the thhis administration does in the name of 'education'.
Re:Woe to my kid who tries this on his school... (Score:4)
I'd tell my kid how proud I was that he understood the troubles of mindless conformity.
Student Body Better Adjusted than the Officals? (Score:5)
So, he gets suspended for disrupting an extracuriccular, non academic activity outside of shcool hours? Man, talk about petty and vindictive. All he did was poke eliteism in the eye. Sure, the diehard school boosters and their ilk were cheesed, but did this really disrupt school and students learning? Was it on the same level as fighting on school grounds?
Meanwhile, given what I read about the guy in the Daily Breeze, he sounds like a hard core eccentric. Its interesting and hopeful that his peers elected a stand out non-conformist guy like him. To me it sounds like the student body is a whole lot more mature and well adjusted than the adults running the place.
Re:this just shows (Score:4)
I think that really has more to do with how people are raised. You mention how they can't see the error of their ways - I think they just don't know that it was an error. Young people are very susceptible to misinformation. Not to turn this into a religious argument, but how many Christians (to pick one group in particular) would be Christians if they, at age 18, having never heard of any religion, were given a Bible? What's the saying about the only difference between a religion and a cult is that the religion has been around longer? Anyhow, ignoring the fact that my example has to do with religion, I think you see what I'm saying.
Reminds me of the "independent thought alarm" from the Simpsons.
Re:Quakers at prom (Score:3)
To spread the word to teenagers about their delicious oatmeal.
Re:Don't play if you don't want to win. (Score:5)
When I was in school, in order to make the National Honor Society, we had to make a case for our acceptance into that august organization over and above our gradepoint average. I took the opportunity to tell them that I rejected their silly contest as elitist beauty pageant crap.
I was not suspended for my actions, but the fallout amongst the faculty was immense. Teachers actually came to me in the halls asking if I felt that way, then why I did I turn in the document in the first place? I told them it was something that needed to be said.
This young man did the same. And while I wouldn't classify him a "hero" (hero worship is another form of slavery), I can certainly understand what he did, and applaud it.
The audacity of the school to suspend him is amazing, particularly knowing as they must have that this incident would recieve wide reportage. Of course, that doesn't make the kid any less suspended.....
Homecoming Candidates Nominated by Student Body (Score:3)
Don't run if you don't plan to accept.
At most high schools, homecoming candidates are nominated by the student body, not the themselves. So it's quite likely this kid could have been elected against his will.
Re:This is ridiculous (Score:3)
Re:Quakers and artillery (Score:3)
actually (only semi-OT) (Score:3)
And he was downright helpful.
But I HAD read the FAQ, and I had been lurking for 3 weeks straight, reading EVERY message in comp.lang.perl (on my employers dime, of course)
So what I'm saying is that I didn't just blunder in, but I studied on how to enter this "scene" gracefully.
To bring it back on Topic:The scorn and "US vs Them" mentality is present in any group/scene with the sentience to know that it is a group. So the question is "chicken vs. egg": does every group embody this "Us vs Them" view becuase it is forced upon us by a society driven by competition? i.e.- it's forced on us by the Jocks and its kill or be killed?
Or is it a natural by-product of specialization and focusing in on one mode of being?
I agree with their decision... kind of. (Score:5)
I guess what I'm thinking is that he was deceptive. I think honesty and integrity are important. He should have backed down from nomination and been honest about it then.
I will say that I do feel that his suspension should be off the record and that it should not be held against his work at school. (Make up tests, turn in assignements, etc.) But, perhaps a better form of disciplinary reaction would be to required him to compose an essay/report of why he did that. Instead of just throwing him out of school, find out why he did what he did. Just my $0.02
Re:Don't play if you don't want to win. (Score:5)
What I am imagining here is the old incredibly mean ploy in which everybody gets together and votes the dork as homecoming king. Then, when he's elected, they all laugh at him - or worse, pull an embarassing prank while he is in the spotlight. It happens more than you think.
Now, if people voted for him because they really do like him, then I don't like his attitude. At my high school, the homecoming king was a really nice guy who also happened to be a straight-A student and a very intelligent, very likeable person - and he graciously accepted it. Freshmen at the school want to be him. He took AP Calculus and AP calc-based physics as a Junior and goes to a local college every day.
He's not a star athlete, and in truth he abhors the archtypal high school culture Katz often writes about. That he feels this way is well known throughout the school, and that's partly the reason they elected him. In fact, from watching previous homecoming kings at the same school (football captain, more the typical kind) and the general change in attitude, I would say that this person has literally changed the entire culture of the school for the better, and made them all really think about those stereotypes.
That's how he made his 'statement'.
-------
Re:Quakers and artillery (Score:5)
It concerns people a lot more when people actually use real firearms.
My little brother shoots [sympatico.ca] at sniper matches. Um, I mean "Precision Rifle" matches. Gotta be politically correct about that...
The cool part is that he's gotten to lug machine guns onto international flights to go to competitions... Not quite artillery, but close enough! Suffice it to say that security in London, England tends to find it a mite interesting when they find 18 guys with 50 machine guns :-).
National matches are also pretty entertaining; the guys on the national team are required to be heavily armed in order to protect the truck full of even bigger guns that they're driving to the tournament...
This is rather long, you have been warned (Score:3)
well, as a geek through school, I would have to say that the sour grapes seems like a cop out in and of itself. If you blame yourself for certain things, fine. I know I did not wear the right clothes, didn't even have a car, and had no money (my parents didn't have any, in other words). I am a bit bitter about attitudes and the values the school "kids" had and still have. However, like you, I worked around them. But I didn't reinvent myself. I am still the "nice guy" alot, but now it doesn't matter as someone who thought I was the nicest guy married me. I could really care less about appearance, but that does not mean I am one of these hypocritical "anti-everythings" that simply do the very OPPOSITE of what is popular under the guise of being "real". So, yes, I agree very much with what that student did. Maybe it was seen as rude to simply walk off the field. But think about this, he made a moral stand, then stuck by it when offered to sell out. Had he accepted, he would have been a hypocrit and a sell out. This was the best way for him to get his message out, that he was willing to sacrifice what many probably covet. That takes a lot of balls. Courage is doing what you think is right, regardless or how people will think about you. I say kudos to him, and that he shows a lot more character than MANY, whether adults or students.
You can disagree with his tactics, him, me, etc. But surely you can admit that he showed a lot of integrity by not accepting.
One other thing I learned that was real imporant. You questioned above whether the previous poster thought social "skills" equated to being mean and cruel, yet said it was sour grapes, bigotry and jealousy. Coming from a very forthright person, who is often looked at funny because he comes right up to people and says Howdy (translation: hi) and shakes hands, I initiate conversations and make jokes (not usually good ones though). And I have actually seen more cruelty and bigotry from the shy. On the other hand, I respect others personal space and don't intrude if I determine I am overstepping. Is that sour grapes? Am I jealous... of what, I have no idea. I think it would be great if young adults (not like I am old, however) put more into constructive interaction and helping each other (is that cheese I smell?), as opposed to playing politics and popularity games. I often see many in awkward situations (me included), and I have NEVER viewed it as a reflection of their worth. I actually have observed that the "socialites" as they are often refered to are self centered and never "compete" by bettering themselves, but rather by tearing others down. That shows a lack of self respect, maturity and social skills. Just because it is chick to act like and arrogant elitist, does not make it a positive social skill.
Perhaps the most important thing, though, is that the social competing crap should really go out by the time junior high is over with. Notice how the high school aged are acting more and more like kids all the time, yet instead of trying to reverse this, many just shrug and turn around and treat them like kids. Yes, the ol' "what comes around goes around" is true, but works both ways. I have found that by respecting the 'young'ns' of that age, and acting respectfully, that they seem to grow up while in my presence. I have even seen 16 year olds slap or chastice their buddies for cursing, acting stupid, etc, after having a short conversation with the teenager.
Now, another thing I want to address is the excuses of "they are still growing up" regarding the predatory behavior or many teenagers. Yes, kids are cruel, but as I mentioned before, these are not kids (even though I think of myself as a kid, 26). I have heard of too many cases (mainly from people in college that helped counsel) of long term psychological damage from high school ridicule. I was ridiculed, but was lucky in that it mellowed out by grade 11 to a degree. Some of these teenagers are basically punished for being alive. Maybe they have a pizza face, maybe they have a lemon for a car, who cares. Its one thing for them to be an outcast. But to be actively picked on all the time is rediculous. Personally, if I ever have kids that tried that crap, they would find themselves in a military school faster than you can say, "haze me". I have seen teachers look the other way, or even worse help in the riducule. I once walked out of a class because the teacher was helping to ridicule another student over some superficial crap. While that was rather direct of the teacher, I have seen teachers play favorites, by punishing the ridiculed student if he/she retaliates back, but ignoring the attacks on him/her. Or, the teacher treats the attacking students like angels, but gives cold responses and sighs to the victim. Basically most school societies have their priorities backwards, IMHO.
ahhh, much better now... thats like tking a good 20 minute dump
Re:He should be suspended! (Score:5)
All right, let's talk about what "people skills" are, and what they're for. Suppose you live in a culture which actively detests intelligence (as demonstrated in its films, books, and all other modes of popular culture). Suppose you yourself are smart enough to have studied history and realize that
Wouldn't it be your responsibility to try to get others to think for themselves, before you simply try to take control and do their thinking for them (a la Gates and your other so-called "successful geeks")? The boy in high school who is smart enough and has enough integrity to fail to conform deliberately, with a funny and strikingly effective act of theatre that galvanizes such an unthinking response by authority, has a great chance of growing up to be one of our new "leaders."
If you studied what used to be called "leadership traits," you'd know that political "leaders" are actually those who intuit or otherwise know (through manipulation, sometimes) how the crowd feels -- they get out front and lead them in the direction they already want to go. This is sad but true.
But we can imagine a society differently organized, can't we: a society in which individuals are free to speak many-to-many, can use reason in their low-level political discourse, and perhaps arrive at high-level consensus based on the merits (for a particular issue) rather than based on the "popularity" of the leader, or her/his conformity to the lowest denominator of popular values. Since you are online, and visit /., I have to hope you know what I'm talking about.
"People skills" are those skills which allow us to understand how others (who are different from us) think and feel; and to speak, listen, and act with them in a non-violent manner. Depending on your own personality, you may believe good "people skills" are those which allow you to become coercive, to manipulate others and accomplish your personal will collectively. Some of us, however, believe good "people skills" are displayed exceptionally well by individuals like the 19-century Quaker who single-handedly decided slavery was wrong, and visited every Quaker slaveholder to persuade them of the same, without any coercion, individually. By the Civil War, no Quakers held slaves.
There are many times I would despair of humanity, except that I note that despite the barbarism and inhumanity of mass warfare and genocide in the 20th century, the last century also saw the birth of civil disobedience movements, and non-violent intentional social change. My hope is in young men and women, like this young man who lay down his crown, to continue this brand-new form of "people skills" as practised by Gandhi, MLK, and a few other pioneers.
It's Here, Too (Score:3)
I am a Senior at Monte Vista High School in Danville, CA. I suppose you could say I am also a member of the "downtrodden" community; I'm a "nerd", a guy who spends all his time messing with Linux and Perl and doesn't have a real life. I, too, think the schools' culture is far too restrictive and conformist. While the teachers at my school are a positive influence (all my teachers know of my computer skills and are grateful for the time I spend helping them), the students are, shall I say, less than supportive.
I feel many times as if the skills I bring and the work I do for the school is under-appreciated by the students; I'm just "the smart kid who knows about computers". Students who know how to program computers are told they "need to get a life", they need to actually do something meaningful, they need to "have some fun once in a while", and of course, they need to "get out" more often. What most people don't understand is, I choose programming over "going out" and "getting a life"!
Schools need to understand that things like dumping the homecoming crown are just fine. I think the district's action was way off base, and I hope they realize what a stupid mistake they've made. What every school needs to remember is that there are some of us who just don't fit the mold, and won't function well within the canonical system. As long as they remember that students are people too (yes, with feelings, thoughts and opinions), we'll get along just fine.
-- Josh
Re:This is outrageous (Score:4)
What did this high and mighty authority do? They organized school dances, and all sorts of other important issues. Did they have any authority to change rules for the better and make the school a great institution of learning? No. They had basically zero rights and powers just like all the other students.
So the student council was in fact, useless, only getting you one more photo in the yearbook.
I hated high school. there was a news story featring my old high school about a brutal sexual assault that went on there a few months ago...
Point and Counterpoint (Score:4)
Point: What he did should not have resulted in suspension. It is goddamned ridiculous that the school would suspend him for declining an award, which is in no way "disruptive", since the rest of the evening can continue without pause. Furthermore, he wasn't defying school officials, since they didn't choose him for king. He was defying his peers, the possibility of which is exactly what makes the US the greatest country in the Solar System (not that we don't have problems here). I really hope that his parents triumph in any legal action they pursue, because the boy only exercised the rights accorded to a US citizen: freedom of speech. He made a statement that he didn't want to accept the award, and I applaud that.
Counterpoint: Although bold and to-the-point, he could have rejected the award in a more graceful fashion, by stepping up to a microphone and saying, "Thanks, but no thanks, I do not accept my award." This kid is clearly trying to feel like he's some kind of political activist, and it makes him look like an idiot and a fool. Just listen to some of his quotes about how schools ought not put glamor in these popularity contests. What a fucking moron. The more he talks, the more grace he nips away from his actions. I've seen more worthy causes in my toilet, and I flush those away. He's no martyr, he's just a moron who wanted to become more popular overnight than any Homecoming King award could have ever made him. "The downtrodden"? What the hell are they? Sounds like this guy is a real loser, who likes to complain that he's not popular, which just makes him less popular. I've always been a computer geek, and was in fact the best student in my high school. Although not popular by any measure, I was never shunned. I firmly believe that those who are shunned in high school put themselves in that position. It starts by a perceived alienation, so that the child withdraws until it becomes real. For some reason, the people who withdraw are those who enjoy being alienated, because it gives them reason to cry, whine, and attract attention. Of course, since everybody loves to be a victim, the child then claims he was an outcast from the start, when in fact it was he that withdrew. All this complaining just drags his friends' attitudes down, so that they eventually abandon him. Finally, whiny and alone, the child tries to make a statement (although it's a hollow one), by complaining even more, changing his personality, dressing differently, and associating himself with others of his type.
While I don't know if he actually wanted this much attention, it is very clear he wanted to act like a "grown-up". The problem is, he picked one of the political-activist grown-ups that behave like children to push their worthless causes down your throat. If he doesn't endorse this sort of popularity contest, he shouldn't have come. It's as simple as that. To think that he has some right to enforce his values on a mass of people just because HE wants to attend a school activity, is childish and self-centered at best. At worst, it's the sort of dictatorial attitude that RMS takes toward Free Software (I'll call it Open Source just to piss him off, Fuck You RMS).
This kid thinks things should be his way just because he's an American citizen? Well so am I, and I want things my way. What's he going to do about that? If you want to abolish popularity contests, kid, run for superintendand of your school district in 20 years, then push to have them abolished. Quit whining now.
Finally, I feel sorry for the Homecoming Queen, who must have felt horrible standing there smiling while her king just walked away. What an asshole.
In response to the "Nerds 7, xxxx 0" post subject (I don't remember what the xxxx stands for), this kid is by no means a nerd. He's not a geek, either. He's just some whiny little kid who wants adverse attention. He wants people to notice him, and have respect for his political activities. A true nerd does one of two things:
Since this kid chose neither route, he's not a nerd.
I do not belong in the spam.redirect.de domain.
Re:The schoolboard's reaction... (Score:3)
--Torrance's mother in "Bring it On"
Re:Nerds 7, Jocks 0. (Score:3)
I sometimes think some of the people I know who are 'geeks' intentionally think, act, and dress the way they think they are supposed to in order to claim that title. It's just as bad as the jocks only on a different side of the coin.
Finkployd
Re:Making a statement (Score:3)
It was fine for Rosa Parks to write letters about injustace too, but it wasn't fine for her to break the system and sit in the front of the bus. Fortunatly we have police to arrest people like her who go byond writting letters.
It would have been fine for the early union workers to talk and write letters after work, but it wasn't fine for them to strike. Fortunatly we have a national gaurd to stop strikes.
Standard practice for the system is to try to change those forcing change instead of changing. I won't comment on if the whole homecoming system should be changed (or scraped), but if he wants to fight, then he had to go byond writting letters. I've seen school newspapers, web sites and the like. They don't do anything, but make people feel good. They are needed to a point, but there is also a time to stand up and let actions speak louder then the pen.
They say the pen is more powerful then the sword. They are only right when someone is willing to pick up a sword and force people to think about what the pen just wrote.
Re:You want your record *EXPUNGED* ?!?!?!?! (Score:4)
Authors Note -- Sad and Ugly (Score:5)
The source of the bulk of this info is linked to in the introduction..it's the Daily Breeze, the local paper. I don't know how you plagiarize something you link to. I don't think that's even possible. But there were several other sources for one or two facts, including wire services, local TV and about 20 e-mails people sent me, including some school officials and reporters who didn't want to be id'd. So I respected that, and linked to the stuff that came from the paper so there would be no doubt as to the source.
I agree all factual material should be attributed which is why I always did it and a couple of paragraphs here or phrases should have had quotes on them, but it didn't all come from one source, which was the problem. Obviously the point, opinions and commentary are mine. Attribution is importand and valid point to raise. But plagiarism is an ugly charge and it's particularly vicious to make it in this way when anybody with any common sense or good faith could have seen the link or simply e-mailed me. If anybody has any questions, feel free to e-mail me now. This is a sad accusation for me, especially when it's made in so witless and irresponsible a way. Anybody has the right to ask anything here, but some of you really ought to ask yourselves some questions about the level of viciousness and cruelty you seem to take as acceptable in your writings. If anybody has any questions, e-mail me, or you can arrange to speak to me. There is no plagiarism issue here, only a question of attribution in one or two paragraphs. Nobody in the world is more of a stickler on this than me,as anybody can see by reading any of my columns...hardly a one doesn't have quotes and attributions. This is really a cheap shot, well over the line, but you're all entitled to an answer about it.
Re:The schoolboard's reaction... (Score:3)
Wow. A couple of sick idiots commit murder over cheerleading, and you attribute that failing to all mothers of cheerleaders.
If that's a fair characterization, then I guess Doom and Quake did cause Columbine, and all geeks should be sequestered.
A mathematician was blowing people up with letter bombs; obviously, we need to restrict all mathematicians from sending mail.
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Re:Nerds 7, Jocks 0. (Score:4)
I believe, because I lived though high school as what you call a B-movie nerd, in a town that makes the movie 'Varsity Blues' look benign. The war against the jocks was a very real thing, fueled by pure hatred and a desire for revenge. With the things that were done to me, how could anyone not fight back?
It's all over now, and I'm very pleased with the outcome. I'm making more money now (as a college student even) than 98% of the people in my old home town. As for the people who taught me what hell was like... well, their livelihood now depends on cows. In other words, I won.
You have the freedom to conform (Score:3)
The charge was justified. (Score:3)
"Reading over this now I can see there is a paragraph that should have quotes from the Daily Breeze."
The original story that you submitted, while it looked like you provided the links, made no clear distinction between the original story and your own contributions. The burden of distinguishing between your writing and the original story should not be left to the reader - as the writer that is your responsibility and yours alone, and in that respect, you failed.
It may (we hope) have been an oversight, and perhaps you had no intention to mislead your audience, but this omission did, in fact, constitute plagiarism, and people had every right to openly accuse you and call for a correction.
An apology from you to your editors and readers, for failing to properly attribute sections of your writing, as well as to your accusers for immaturely lashing out, would be appropriate.
I'm sure you'll be much more careful next time.
Heh heh heh... (Score:3)
that this will go down /
on your permanent record... /
-- The Violent Femmes
I'd be amazed if any of this were enough to generate a *real* permanent record, (an FBI file, that is...) but it would be very silly and entertaining as hell if someone had something this stupid catch up with them.
("Mr. Bush, we have here that you got suspended in high school and later tried to have that record expunged. Is that true? You DO know that you have a suspension on your PERMANENT RECORD, right? I'm sorry, but America cannot in good conscience elect a President with such a black mark on his PERMANENT RECORD. We all understand about the drugs and the alcohol and not wanting to serve in the military, that's just business as usual. But MY GOD, MAN, why did you have to get suspended in High School?")
---
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate [ncsu.edu].
Re:Authors Note -- Sad and Ugly (Score:3)
If you just said, "I provided a link but I still should have made it clearer which text is mine and which is quoted. I'm sorry." that would be the end of it. (Hemos had the right idea.) But to say that if you link or footnote, that frees you from any obligation to use quotes -- sorry, but that's just not the way it works. You can accuse people of "viciousness", "cruelty" and "lying" but the fact is that college students routinely get failed, suspended or even expelled over the failure to mark even a sentence or two as quoted text.
Re:Justification? (Score:3)
But none of these options fit; it wasn't that serious.
So I walked away.
Re:Journalistic Ethics (Score:3)
Re:Don't play if you don't want to win. (Score:3)
If the same thing had happened to me as a senior, I don't know if I would have had the same response as Griffiths, but I commend him for having the cojones to do what he thought was right, and expose the utter idiocy of his school's administration for all to see.
Eric
--
Re:Journalistic Ethics (Score:3)
It's also a bit low-rent to rant about "User 240151" and imply, as sometimes happens around here, that anonymous posters are some kind of lower order. Privacy is a right. Words should speak for themselves. That will be all.
Oh Please (Score:3)
"It may (we hope) have been an oversight, and perhaps you had no intention to mislead your audience, but this omission did, in fact, constitute plagiarism, and people had every right to openly accuse you and call for a correction"
Oh come on .. anyone with half a brain can tell that Jon Katz is not by any means a plagiarist. He's been contributing original material to /. for many months, and been writing for decades. Let's be rational about this; if he did make a mistake now, it was obviously a tiny one out of a very prolific career .. you people harp on this one miniscule incident as if it defines his entire writing career or something. That's clearly a load of crap.
This really is a non-issue. Drop it already, and leave the guy alone. You don't have to keep attacking him.
A rose by any other name... (Score:3)
plagiarism n 1: a piece of writing that has been copied from someone else and is presented as being your own work 2: the act of plagiarizing; taking someone's words or ideas as if they were your own
The point is you did _not_ attribute at all when you know darn well you should have. The daily breeze was linked but not credited. The link was 'officials suspended him', rather than 'as reported by' or 'sourced from' the daily breeze. The name 'daily breeze' appears nowhere in your article. Would it be appropriate for me to post 'romeo and juliet by Greg@RageNet' and have a link at the bottom 'hemlock poison' that points to the original by Shakespere? I think not.
I appreciate Hemos coming along and fixing your screwup to keep Slashdot out of hot water. Obviously some of the staff at slashdot agree with my position that what you did was wrong.
So lets, analize this word for word; although the story has been updated (twice) since my first posting the following is all based on the original.
The second paragraph is direct copies breeze paragraphs 5 and 6, followed by your comment in brackets. The third paragraph follows the exact flow of the breeze article sentence-for-sentence with minor modifications, such as changing 'indicted' to 'charged'. Again the begining of the fourth paragraph follows the flow of the breeze article with minor changes to wording.
Some phrases should technically have had quotes around them.
As something slashdotters can relate to, this is no better than building some propriatary software and using a snippet here and a snippet there of GPL code. Adhering to the GPL for a few snippets of code may be a 'technicality' to some but others take it very seriously.
-- Greg
Re:Authors Note -- Sad and Ugly (Score:3)
Wow! You managed to get an affectation of naivety and gross hyperbole all in one sentence!
Are your seriously trying to put forth that the "visiousness", "cruelty", and "lying" that Katz is referring to is in any way similar to what professors and administration subject students to, even when they are disciplined for plagiarizing? And, although Katz faux pas may (and let me again stress, may ) be qualified as plagiarism, it is certainly not the level of dishonesty that would cause a student to fail his course (unless the professor is a real ass), and it is no where near the level of deceit that would justify an expulsion or suspension.
I have only been coming to Slashdot for about 6 months, and I have rarely seen the type of abuse other /.ers heap on Katz. The attacks he puts up with every time he contributes an article is just wrong. The people who perpetrate these attacks strike me as the wannabee jocks of the Tech world. They are the ones who feel justified in damning and torturing anyone who will not conform to their way of thinking. They display a vulgar pack mentality in which, not only do they not feel regret for their dehumanizing behavior, they somehow feel pleasurably justified in perpetuating it.
Finally, what is surprising to me (and perhaps here I am revealing my own level of naivety) is that a group who, by-and-large accept the branding of "geek" or "nerd" (and all that those labels entail) would stand by and allow these "jocks" so much power in influencing the slashdot community.
Re:geeks arent always the victims of elitism.. (Score:3)
-------
CAIMLAS
On the contrary... (Score:4)
Now, try #linuxhelp on undernet - one would think that this is a logical step BEFORE #linux, but generally not the case. The ops are helpful, knowledgeable, and manage to get most questions answered. The type that don't get answered are the, "Howz do I set up mailz??!" type of question. And even those get a good deal of help, considering their utter stupidity and lack of any intelligence - anyone that has any information at all about linux should know at least some semblance of what sendmail is. Even script kiddies know this. It's name itself even expresses what it is!
Granted, there are kicks and bans in #linuxhelp - but with warrant. Once again, look in the right places. It's generally not a good idea to go to microsoft.com and look for the latest software patches for linux - because they're not available there. Common sence, people - use it. :)
-------
CAIMLAS
Re:Nerds 7, Jocks 0. (Score:3)
Then there are people who get into the whole geeks vs. jocks battle. The geeks think that the jocks are losers, and the jocks think that the geeks are losers. But they're really both losers because they insist that they're better than everybody else. The truly cool people are the ones who have their close friends in their clique, but who are also friends to those outside of that group.
Please excuse me for sounding like an after school special, but I've thought quite a bit about this subject.
Nope (Score:5)
To rise to the standard of plagiarism an act of literary misappropriation requires the intent to steal anothers work and pass it off as your own. This intent can be inferred a number of ways: when the extent of the misappropriation is extensive; if there are steps taken to disguise the source. In this case, providing a link to the original source is pretty clear evidence that there was no intent to commit plagiarism.
This is no mere quibble -- it's the intent to defraud the reader and deprive the author that makes plagiarism an odious literary crime. What we have here is more of a faux paux, or perhaps a kind of literary misdemeanor bearing the same relationship to plagiarism that reckless endangerment has to premedidated murder. Where there is no intent to commit plagiarism, there cannot be plagiarism.
The passages quoted are neither so extensive nor scintillating that they would warrant any plagiarist's attention. There's just too many damned people in this world who like to wait in the bushes and jump out to say "Gotcha!"
Re:Don't play if you don't want to win. (Score:3)
While I agree that school officials would be happy if students had no rights at all, and act accordingly, the students can fight back...
When I was in highschool, a group of my friends wrote and distributed a flier in response to extremely anti-gay posters that had been put up anonymously. After all was said and done, the administration had suspended everyone involved, including my friends. The posters had urged violence, the flier had urged tolerance.
The justification for the suspentions was an obscure rule that said any literature distributed on school grounds had to be approved by the principal first. This was news to most people, including teachers, since the rule had *never* been enforced before. So the students did the only thing they could, the went to the ACLU for a lawyer, and the sued the school board for selective enforcement. When the suspentions were dropped out of court, the student's then sued the school board again to get the rule revoked on the grounds that is violated the first amendment. They won that case too.
After that incident, the administration was really reluctant to harrass my group of friends for anything minor like eating lunch outside the cafeteria.
-Dorsey
This is the sad state of affairs today (Score:5)
This even happened to me during high school, so I'm not being delusional. During my junior year of high school, I discovered that my computer account was disabled. I E-mailed the system administrator, who told me to talk with my principal, who wanted my accound disabled.
I met with the principal, who told me that my account was terminated because it contained copies of three copyrighted programs on the school computers. It quickly became obvious that someone stole my password for my account and used it to copy copyrighted software onto my account. This is quite easily accomplished, since our passwords were our student ID numbers, and we were required to wear our IDs around our neck at all times (something I was a vocal opponent of), and we couldn't change our passwords. After seeing the list of what was on my account, it was obvious that this is exactly what happened -- someone (I still don't know who) who didn't like me decided to get me in trouble and didn't have much difficulty doing it thanks to the school's computer "security" system.
What made me mad wasn't the fact that it was disabled; I could more or less care less if I did in fact copy those programs, because that's the consequences you suffer for breaking the law. What angered me was that after politely telling my principal that I didn't do it, he told me that I would have to find out who did it myself and get him/her to confess to it before I would get my account back. That is quite clearly against their own rules -- copying the model in the Constitution, the school district's rules say that they can't do anything to me unless they can prove I did it, and they can't make me prove my innocence. He even said that I should have been grateful that he didn't call the police.
The only way I got them to back down was by coming back the next day and politely telling him that they should go ahead and call in the police and ask them to press criminal charges, and we would see who the police sided with. I even offered to dial the phone for him. Needless to say, the principal quickly changed his mind once he saw he was dealing with someone who understood his rights.
The point I'm making here is that the school didn't really care what was right or legal when they dealt out the punishment because of who I was. Although I'm not exactly a trouble-maker (I have no criminal record, and my school record is spotless, and my teachers would say that I was a model student) I was (and still am) a dissident of sorts. I was a vocal opponent of a number of the school's policies, and they were just looking for something to nail me with.
Lest you think this is sour grapes, I can cite case after case from our school alone where our school dealt harshly with people who acted just slightly out of the norm. A group of students, who felt that our pep rallies had become too much like 1984-ish loyalty tests, protested by reading newspapers during the pep rally, and they were given detentions. Letters to the editor in the school newspaper in opposition of school decisions have been censored. And a meeting used to pass a matter that was kept a secret for months and that many students opposed was the information was accidentally (?) leaked by a teacher inadvertently (?) leaving a memo from one of the closed meetings in the library, was not announced and was scheduled in conflict of an extra-curricular activity that many of the vocal students attended. (Or perhaps better stated, would have attended -- the meeting was flooded by angry students and parents nonetheless.)
The point I'm trying to make is that today American school systems (excluding higher education, who are thankfully mostly free from such problems) train their students for absolutely loyalty, and they punish anyone who disagrees with them. I'm not the only one to complain about this -- both fellow students and teachers have told me they agree, though they wouldn't tell the administration so. The school in question here apparently decided that they didn't like the student giving other people at the prom ideas, so they shut him down. What better way to make an example of what happens to you if you oppose policy than to publicly punish him at a heavily-attended school function?
Do admire what he did? Absolutely. Do I agree with you? Of course. Do I think it matters? No. So long as we as a society put up with the current school system, this is going to keep happening. Personally this scares me; my school robbed me of my faith in democracy and in education, and I don't want this to happen to future generations.
Back Away From That Keyboard, Maam (Score:3)
l. There was no intent, directly or indirectly to misrepresent the source of this article. I linked directly to it.
2. My attribution was sloppy. The column was written at midnight, and I didn't think it was going to run, so I didn't go over it. I just didn't get how close the wording was, since I got so much e-mail from so many sources about the story. But since some people obviously weren't clear about the source, I was obviously wrong about the attribution. If it's dont right, there should be no confusion.
3. For that, I happily and fully apologize.
4. For me, this was a turning point. I got a health reminder of the importance of clear attribution, and many, many e-mails from people who had had enough of the brutish nastiness that passes for discussion and criticism among a vocal minority of Slashdot readers. I never got so much praise or support on anything I've written in my life, even from a significant number of people who felt my attribution should have been clearer. They are definitely right. It's the first time it's ever happened to me, to my knowledge, and believe me, it will be the last.
Ultimately criticism is helpful and useful, even when it goes over the line, as I believe this particular attack did.
I am very happy writing here, and plan to be there for as long as Rob, Jeff and Robin want me. I think I have the best job on the Net, and even though a lot of you are e-mailing me encouraging me not to get discouraged by it, the fact is it's left me feeling even better about the place than I did before. Hope this completely clarifies everything, and that we can move on.