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Is Encryption Really Secure?

Posted by Cliff on Mon Apr 09, 2001 09:33 AM
from the things-you-might-not-have-thought-about dept.
taustin writes: "Phil Zimmerman did the world a great favor when he created PGP and released it for free for personal use. But no encryption program is better than the practices of those who use it, and the easiest way to crack any security system is with the help (knowing or otherwise) of the people who use it." from Bruce Schnier's latest book, _Secrets and Lies_: "Remember, for the whole digital-signature system to work, you have to be sure that only you know your private key. Okay then, how do you protect it? You almost certainly don't own a secure computing system with physical access controls, TEMPEST shielding, "air wall" network security, and other protections; you store your private key on a conventional computer." In other words, your encrypted files may only be as secure as the computer and network on which the key resides.

taustin continues: "I made a disturbing connection the other day between PGP (or any encryption program) and the many security vulnerabilities that keep cropping up in web browsers and mail clients. It seems we don't go a week without some new way for a 'hostile web site' or 'malicious email' to read files from our hard drives. These are usually downplayed, because, in general, they can only read, not write to or delete, files, and because one needs to know the exact file name and path to exploit them. How easy is it to guess at the path and file name of a file that could be damaging for someone to just read?

Encryption relies on keys, which are kept in keyrings, which are computer files; and those keyring files have a default install location; and while that default location can be changed, the program still keeps track of where it is. In the case of PGP, this is a file called PGPprefs.txt, and that has a default location that (as far as I know) cannot be changed. And if it can be changed, the location of the preferences file has to be stored somewhere.

So it looks to me like it wouldn't be all that tough for someone who knows how to exploit one or more of these vulnerabilities to just grab someone's entire private keyring if they don't have all the patches installed.

What's really disturbing is to compare all this to current 'sneak-and-peek' search warrant practices - where police agents can break into your home or business to conduct a search without having to tell you, before or after, that they've done so. It is not entirely clear if such searches are illegal now, but they would be sanctioned by bills like HR. 2987, the Methamphetamine Anti-Proliferation Act of 1999. With the ability to remotely steal a private key, without even having to enter you home, and legal sanction to do so, there are frightening possibilities.

Having the keyring, of course, is not quite all there is to it. Keyrings are protected by passphrases, as well. But passphrases are not as secure as encryption keys themselves are - they are chosen by the user, and most will fall to dictionary attacks very quickly.

So what are good practices to adopt when using encryption software? Should one keep the keyring on a floppy disk, and never have it in the computer when it's connected? Should PGP (and other encryption programs) be changed so that the user has to manually identify where the keyring is whenever the program starts? Is it possible to make the program as safe in Real Life as the alogrithm is mathematically?"

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  • Who's we? by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @06:28AM
  • Correction, Cliff by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @06:31AM
  • Security almost never broken through encryption by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @06:30AM
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 09 2001, @06:35AM (#305217)
    You can have the strongest crypto in the world, but if your staff writes the passwords on post-it notes stuck to the monitor, you are wide open. Ironically, requiring more frequent password changes, only encourages writing down of passwords even more.
  • I am implementing iButton support for GPG by Paul Crowley (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @03:39PM
  • Ironic by dkusters (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @08:32AM
  • Bruce Sterling's PGP key by Pseudonymus Bosch (Score:2) Tuesday April 10 2001, @06:07AM
  • Well duh by Julian Morrison (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @07:40AM
  • Re:Encryption is necessary, but not sufficient by Ed Avis (Score:2) Tuesday April 10 2001, @06:40AM
  • The point is not 'if it is encrypted, it will be secure'. That has never been true.

    Rather, what you should remember is that 'if it is not encrypted, it is not secure'.

    Personally, I think it is more important to get encryption in there - even with *bad* practices - than to worry about getting the last 1% of security from already-encrypted apps. For example, going from telnet to ssh with password-sending (your password is encrypted in transit) is a huge leap in security. Going from ssh password-sending to public-key authentication is only a small extra step, if anything. Choosing a long passphrase, or going from Blowfish to 3DES, are pretty unimportant for most people. Few crackers are going to see encrypted bits going over the wire and attempt to crack that - even if the passphrase might only be quite short. More important to focus on replacing the existing highly insecure protocols such as NFS.
  • Re:StegFS by KlomDark (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @09:50AM
  • Convience vs Security by jjr (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @06:14AM
  • Re:PPS by hta (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @09:31PM
  • Re:ibutton by rthille (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @11:47AM
  • non-biometric security's a sham by crovira (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @10:44AM
  • The Answer. by The Dodger (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @07:15AM
  • Re:Use an IButton by TrentC (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @08:40AM
  • Security is not about privacy by Kope (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @09:28AM
  • by Parity (12797) on Monday April 09 2001, @11:17AM (#305232)
    This seems to have spun off a whole line of 'be careful of dictionary attacks' comments; I think people are failing to realize the difficulty of a dictionary attack on a long string. Dictionary attacks are powerful on pass'words' (or concatenations of words) because you save a huge amount over brute force.

    There are, however, many more than 26 words...

    Thus, an eight word pass*phrase* is -vastly- more difficult to dictionary-attack than an eight character pass-word-. If this isn't powerful enough for you, add more words... gpg and pgp allow some silly length of passphrase.

    But supposing there are 10000 words in the english language (and that your passphrase is in english, but why should it be? Even we under-cultured americans take some token foreign language class and can cobble together a sentance or three in another language...), well, then, an eight word passphrase has 10000^8 = (10^4)^8 = 10^48 ... possibilities. I think in actuality there's a few orders of magnitude more involved, and even if there isn't, just adding in the considerations that capitalization and punctuation add increases the complexity dramatically.
    (ie, "this is my secret passphrase dont you know" is different from "This is my secret passphrase, don't you know." is different from "THIS IS MY SECRET PASS... " eh, you get the idea.)

    In short, passphrases are not vulnerable to dictionary attacks if your passphrase is a reasonable length. (Or rather, the removal of a few orders of magnitude from the problem will not make it crackable on todays hardware, and when
    it -does- make a difference, brute force will be only a few years behind, the same way that 8 character passwords are brute-forceable today and were only dictionary attackable a few years back...)

    Though, it would be advisable to avoid using famous lines and quotes, since the first passphrase dictionary attack attempt would almost certainly include the 'to be or not to be' speech with various truncations, the first line and chorus line from every top forty song in the last fifty years, etc.

    Also, remember, most dictionary based cracking tools try substituting zero for 'O', four for 'A', etc, to match 31337 'spelling' styles, and trying all the case combinations... so those obfuscations don't really help.

    It -does- help to try something like, taking the first letter of every word in a sentence, like,
    'I'm going to obfuscate my password' -> 'igtomp', which you can that capitalize or obfuscate at leisure (though -nothing- will make a six-character password secure, so use a longer sentence!); this gives the benefits of passphrases (memorizability) even for passwords that have to fit in some small space (like 32 characters or whatever, where a password spelled out might be short enough to still be dictionary vulnerable because it's only 5 words instead of 8 to 10... )

    Anyway, that's my thoughts for to-day.

    Parity Odd


    --Parity
  • I thought the keyring was encrypted by joshv (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @05:43AM
  • Re:improving crypto keyring security by Graymalkin (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @11:26AM
  • Fighting injustice with cheese wiz by Graymalkin (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @11:45AM
  • Hmm by gatkinso (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @06:24AM
  • Re:Use a more secure OS... (close) by rakjr (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @06:31AM
  • Re:an unconstructive comment by BilldaCat (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @06:33AM
  • Floppies and PDAs by cthrall (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @05:46AM
  • Re:Come on by cthrall (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @05:52AM
  • How is this news? by mindstrm (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @08:03AM
  • by abelsson (21706) on Monday April 09 2001, @07:27AM (#305242) Homepage
    A good assumption to make is that the NSA and it's likes can read *any* message it wants no matter how it was encrypted but they probably can't read *all* the messages they would want.

    Another good assumption is that the intelligence services prefer breaking fingers to keys. Why waste a billion dollars in computing power when you can simply crack the guys fingers unless they give you the key?

    A third one is that they aren't usually that interested in your pr0n collection.

    (Yes, it're stolen from applied crypto. But it's good advice.)

    -henrik

  • Re:ibutton by austad (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @05:56AM
  • ibutton (Score:5)

    by austad (22163) on Monday April 09 2001, @05:46AM (#305244) Homepage
    Ibutton [ibutton.com] is a small device which fits on your keychain and can plug into the USB port on your computer. You can use it to store your private key, along with the public keys of others. It can also be used as a key to your computer, both through the usb port, or through a little thing you tap it against that you attach to your monitor. It's also good for door authentication, several lock companies make locks that work with these for around $80 each. The Ibutton itself costs between $10 and $25 depending on which model you get. It can do other things too, and it's not a foolproof way to prevent someone from getting at your key, but, it's a good preventative measure, and it's sure to make it harder for an attacker.
  • Excuse me - moderators? by Levine (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @10:28AM
  • Re:I thought the keyring was encrypted by MindStalker (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @11:11AM
  • Breaking PGP Passphrase by Quack1701 (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @07:41AM
  • Re:Some ideas.... by 0xdeadbeef (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @07:56AM
  • Use a more secure OS... by CSC (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @05:42AM
  • Re:Use a more secure OS... by CSC (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @11:17AM
  • Re:Use a more secure OS... (close) by CSC (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @11:23AM
  • Re:Use a more secure OS... by CSC (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @11:25AM
  • Check it out! by chill (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @06:41AM
  • PPS (Score:3)

    by ajs (35943) <ajs@aj[ ]om ['s.c' in gap]> on Monday April 09 2001, @06:13AM (#305254) Homepage
    PGP only goes so far. If you only use encryption for sensitive material, you flag it as such.

    To solve for this, I'm writing a specification for transparent encryption of email using standard MUAs. Please feel free to check out the PPS homepage [ajs.com], which will be moving to SourceForge sometime RSN (basically, I'm just waiting to get over the learning curve at my new company). The nice things about PSS are that it does not require that a user know their email is being encrypted and that it does not require a specific encryption back-end (it's design assumes something PGP-like, but you could easily adapt any public-key system).

    Let me know what you think, and send me email if you have any questions at all. Thanks!
  • Re:Right way to store our private keys by Zurk (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @05:56AM
  • Re:Right way to store our private keys by Zurk (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @09:06AM
  • Re:Keyrings are as secure as the passphrase by coyote-san (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @07:42AM
  • Re:PGP helps my courtship. by CoughDropAddict (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @02:58PM
  • This is neither new nor interesting. by rjh (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @11:46AM
  • Biometrics are dangerous. by rjh (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @11:58AM
  • Oh, and don't forget by wiredog (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @05:45AM
  • Re:I thought the keyring was encrypted by wiredog (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @07:26AM
  • by wiredog (43288) on Monday April 09 2001, @05:43AM (#305263) Journal
    Is it possible to make the program as safe in Real Life as the alogrithm is mathematically?

    One of the points made in Secrets and Lies is no, you can't make it as secure. At least, not without much effort. For your PGP data to be really secure you woould have the key in ROM, on some sort of PCMCIA type card, and locked in a safe when not in use. The message would be encrypted on a computer that's not on a network, and the encrypted message would be put on a floppy and sneaker-netted to the networked pc. Due diligence would be used in selecting the public/private pair.

    The real question is, how secure do you need the data to be? Secure for a few hours to days (tactical) or secure for a few years to forever (strategic)? For tactical, PGP is Good Enough. For strategic(in text messages) a one time pad is required. Also, who is it secure from? Your annoying kid brother, or the NSA/GCHQ? That, too, determines what security you use.

  • by wiredog (43288) on Monday April 09 2001, @05:56AM (#305264) Journal
    Yeah, but how strong is the passphrase? It's basically a long password, and if your passphrase is something like "I love tux" repeated 9 times, it's not that good. A good passphrase, like a good password, is long, contains few real words, has odd punctuation and spelling, and is generally so hard to remember that, unless you spend serious time memorizing it, will be written down.
  • Re:Semtex. by ncc74656 (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @07:24AM
  • Hacking the ring. by Y-Man (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @11:08AM
  • Re:I thought the keyring was encrypted by Dwonis (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @12:47PM
  • Re:Use a more secure OS... (close) by jovlinger (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @11:01AM
  • by mjh (57755) <{mark} {at} {hornclan.com}> on Monday April 09 2001, @06:11AM (#305269) Homepage Journal
    I've been a network security professional for about 8 years now, and one of the things that people seem to forget is that security is not some absolute thing which you can measure your stuff against and then be happy that you've met the standard. You constantly have to measure security against the context of what you're trying to protect.

    So, for example, my private email communications with my friend in New Jersey are done using GPG. We both have 1024 bit keys. Do I store my private key on some non-interceptible media? Do I have my computer room tempest shielded? No, of course not. But why should I. The risk of my emails being wanted by anyone other than my friend is not very high. My only reason for encrypting our communication is to make it difficult for casual snoops. And given me and my friend's relative importance in the world, those are the only people who will try to eavesdrop on our communication. I'm sure that professional snoops would easily be able to get our communication without our even knowing it. But I'm also pretty sure that there are no professional snoops running around even trying to read our email.

    My conclusion: GPG is good enough, becuase the relative risk is very low. Is the exact same set up good enough for communication between the President and the National Security Advisor when talking about issues of national security? Probably not. (Ignore for the moment that the Pres has sworn off email.)

    My point: you can't answer the question of "is PGP (or GPG) secure enough?". The answer depends on what you're trying to protect.
  • by fizban (58094) <fizban@umich.edu> on Monday April 09 2001, @05:48AM (#305270) Homepage
    This is the statement I usually live by:

    Encryption is secure, people aren't.

    Like the poster states, the biggest problem with the encryption tools is how well we use them. The safety of today's encryption standards are very good. For the average user, and even most users with high security needs, today's encryption tools provide enough safety to make any attempts at decryption just not worthwhile.

    But, the only way to make it work is to make the encryption just one part of a total privacy methodology. It has to become a habit and not an afterthought. Because if it's not a central part of you practice, mistakes will be made, and data will be compromised.

    Don't rely on defaults. Know where your data is. Know what's encrypted and what isn't. Know who has access to your information. Yes, it's difficult, but it's necessary. We are in the middle of entering a stage of humanity when the free flowing of information will be both a blessing and a curse. The information we need to survive will be easier to find, but at the same time, the information we need to keep from others will be harder to secure. Rather than thinking of security and encryption as just a "Spy thing" we have to think of it as a normal part of our everyday lives, much like shopping online has become a regular thing, when it was just a novelty a few years ago.

    It will be hard, and not everyone will care, but eventually we'll get there.

    --

  • by bugg (65930) on Monday April 09 2001, @10:08AM (#305271) Homepage
    "I love tux" repeated 9 times would be a fine passphrase, unless people associate you with the phrase "I love tux" and would actually think about guessing that by hand. Heck, repeating it _3_ times would be a strong password!

    For a dictionary attack, it wouldn't get it. For a brute force attack, using the 93 or so characters.. "IlovetuxIlovetuxIlovetux" - that's 24 characters. There are 93 permute 24 options for that, or 6.75e45. Now, to be fair, starting with one digit characters, thare are a total of 93 P 24 + 93 P 23 + 93 P 22 ... + 93 P 1 - or 6.856e45. A brute force attacker will give up before then, because even if you can do 1,000,000 tries a second with a really fast computer, it will still take 2.174e32 years. Now, even if you limit your passphrase to say, the set a-z, there are still 2.89e26 combinations. A million per second (which, AFAIK, is much higher than you can expect to get in scenarios such as this) and you'll still need 9.16e13 years.

    The real weakness comes when your passphrase is say, 6 characters long and no punctuation (and the latter is known to the attacker) - then you have only 1.49e10 combinations, which will be solved by our fictional computer in just under 2 days.

  • Weak links by michael_cain (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @07:23AM
  • Re:I thought the keyring was encrypted by gad_zuki! (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @07:09AM
  • Semtex. (Score:3)

    by Stonehand (71085) on Monday April 09 2001, @05:39AM (#305274) Homepage
    A block of Semtex, a remote-controlled explosive charge, a retinal scanner, a dead-man switch wired to your medulla oblongata, TEMPEST shielding, and some decent anti-tampering devices ought to do the trick.

    Or did you mean things like making sure the key is only used on YOUR private system and to keep the private key ring on a floppy that's with you at all times?
  • Re:In addition... by jason_z28 (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @07:27AM
  • In addition... (Score:3)

    by jason_z28 (73458) on Monday April 09 2001, @06:02AM (#305276)
    This is exactly why the goverment doesn't care if you use some extremely tough encryption. Of course it makes it more difficult to do mass scans, like carnivore. But not any more difficult for spying on an individual. Bruce says it best, "security is a process, not a product". Sure, you can use your 4096 bit keys in your PGP application. And it would take millions of years to brute force them. But is brute force the best way to attack the PGP process? No way. And this is what the government knows. If I am the government, and I want access to your PGP encrypted data, all I have to do is break into your house while you're at work, copy your private key to a disk, and install some key logger to record your passphrase. It's quite simple really. No need for any brute force. The crack would take minutes, not millions of years. Attack the process, not the product, and most seemingly secure products will fail. Not because the products are bad, but because the process of using the products are bad.
    Jason
  • Re:Keyrings are as secure as the passphrase by townmouse (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @08:56AM
  • use a good pass phrase by heh2k (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @05:48AM
  • gnu keyring by passion (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @08:47AM
  • And the answer is... by horza (Score:1) Tuesday April 10 2001, @05:53AM
  • Physical Key Extraction by Greyfox (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @05:51AM
  • Re:I thought the keyring was encrypted by BobGregg (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @06:24AM
  • Re:I thought the keyring was encrypted by BobGregg (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @10:48AM
  • Re:To answer some questions by doubleyou (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @05:49AM
  • an unconstructive comment by doubleyou (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @05:43AM
  • Re:I thought the keyring was encrypted by Banjonardo (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @07:42PM
  • Re:I never though of that. by ozbon (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @06:26AM
  • Re:Some ideas.... by ralmeida (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @06:12AM
  • Re:Use a more secure OS... (close) by Omega996 (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @12:00PM
  • Re:I thought the keyring was encrypted by Omega996 (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @12:07PM
  • Biometric encryption keys/GIF-based schemes by SimCash (Score:1) Tuesday April 10 2001, @07:52AM
  • Under the 5th Amendment... by Sir_Winston (Score:2) Tuesday April 10 2001, @05:40AM
  • But I do plenty of "illegal" things... by Sir_Winston (Score:2) Tuesday April 10 2001, @06:14AM
  • Neural Network by mrnick (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @02:43PM
  • Pretty Good Security by fizzbin (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @05:59AM
  • Re:What, Me Worry? by Richy_T (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @06:55AM
  • I store mine off my computer by -ryan (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @07:41AM
  • Re:Secure? by MrGrendel (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @12:59PM
  • Re:Come on by Ronin X (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @06:21AM
  • Re:Come on by jallen02 (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @08:09AM
  • Why Cryptosystems Fail by bnoble (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @06:21PM
  • Re:I thought the keyring was encrypted by pallex (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @07:02AM
  • Re:Some ideas.... by pallex (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @07:07AM
  • My strategy by e-Motion (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @11:02AM
  • Sneak and Peak warrants by bmasel (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @06:23AM
  • Security procedures have always been the weak link by code_rage (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @09:09AM
  • Nah. Build a dictionary from the dejanews archive by TheLink (Score:1) Tuesday April 10 2001, @03:48AM
  • Re:PGP helps my courtship. by rgmoore (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @08:55AM
  • Re:Some ideas.... (Score:3)

    by ssimpson (133662) <slashdot@NosPam.samsimpson.com> on Monday April 09 2001, @06:22AM (#305309) Homepage

    3) Keep up-to-date software. Remember the pgp 6.5.1 problem ? (I don't know if I have the right version, but it was something to do with not generating sufficient random numbers - although someone will probably correct me)

    Not sure what you're refering to. "Recent" bugs in PGP include:

    1. PGP 5.0 for Linux bug (random number generation seriously flawed. GnuPG users were not susceptible.
    2. The recent OpenPGP implementation flaws in private key storage. Write-up here [i.cz]. GnuPG users were susceptible.
    3. ADK packet in public keys not signed bug. Effects 5.5.x to 6.5.3 and allows an adversary to add an ADK to an arbitrary key. See write-up here [senderek.de]. GnuPG users were not susceptible.

    Hope this helps?

  • Re:Some ideas.... (Score:3)

    by ssimpson (133662) <slashdot@NosPam.samsimpson.com> on Monday April 09 2001, @12:59PM (#305310) Homepage

    Hey - I'm involved with Scramdisk [clara.net] - I'm not going to help you ;)))

  • Read my FAQ! (Score:5)

    by ssimpson (133662) <slashdot@NosPam.samsimpson.com> on Monday April 09 2001, @06:14AM (#305311) Homepage

    Interesting story - you may like to look at my PGP DH vs PGP RSA FAQ [clara.net].

    To quote the FAQ:

    8.2. Get the threat in perspective!

    The NSA (probably!) aren't specifically interested in you. They aren't going to break into your house to install bugs, or monitor your screen from a block away. They will however collect all of your messages sent over public networks.

    PGP protects you from one form of monitoring - Echelon or other passive network sniffing. When your messages are captured by this global monitoring system, along with millions of other messages a day, the NSA can possibly decide to try and decode your message.

    The most significant threat to PGP comes from user sloppiness. It is far easier to install a keylogger on your computer, install a trojan version of PGP, or bruteforce your passphrase than to break any of the cryptographic mechanisms employed by PGP.

    If you are seriously worried about Intelligence Agencies actively monitoring you, then the last thing you should be worried about is them cryptographically attacking your PGP crypto implementation!

    I'm currently working on a new version, and the ToDo list is here [samsimpson.com].

  • Use an IButton by abde (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @06:28AM
  • Pointless... by Arcanix (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @05:40AM
  • Interesting Query! by Arcanix (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @05:46AM
  • Re:Pointless... by Arcanix (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @06:20AM
  • Re:Pointless... by Arcanix (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @06:21AM
  • Re:Come on by Ziest (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @10:17AM
  • Encrypt the key by Drone-X (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @05:44AM
  • Re:I store mine off my computer by slashdoter (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @08:57AM
  • Re:In addition... (Score:3)

    by clare-ents (153285) on Monday April 09 2001, @06:40AM (#305320) Homepage
    Thats the point of encryption.

    The government wants to routinely intercept all communications. By forcing them to break into your house to install keyloggers you vastly increase the cost of spying to the point where it isn't economic to spy on everyone.

    Keyloggers are still hassle though - especially if people use multiple computers / change keyboards etc.

  • Re:Physical Key Extraction by dazedNconfuzed (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @06:39AM
  • Re:Physical Key Extraction by Simon Jester (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @06:22AM
  • Re:How many anger-inducing stories will /. post? by -Harlequin- (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @06:27PM
  • DIY tempest shielding by -Harlequin- (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @06:44PM
  • Re:How many anger-inducing stories will /. post? by squeegee-me (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @07:05AM
  • Problem is, this is how the average user thinks... by tshak (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @06:03AM
  • digital signature by gerddie (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @06:18AM
  • Re:Pointless... by rnbc (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @05:54AM
  • Re:ibutton by agir (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @07:11AM
  • Re: 5th amendment protection by indole (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @06:27AM
  • Would you keep your car keys in the car? by indole (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @05:43AM
  • Re:Come on (correction) by indole (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @05:52AM
  • Re:I thought the keyring was encrypted by Bingo Foo (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @08:04AM
  • Hack Shoeboy by Bingo Foo (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @08:58AM
  • What, Me Worry? by Alien54 (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @05:47AM
  • Re:How many anger-inducing stories will /. post? by Erasmus Darwin (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @11:15AM
  • by Erasmus Darwin (183180) on Monday April 09 2001, @07:00AM (#305337)
    So what's my bottom line here? "Is encryption really secure?"

    Next time, how about reading the article before going off half-cocked? As usual, the Slashdot story has a less-than-accurate summary line. However, if you read the last paragraph (i.e. where we get to the actual question after wading through the background material), it reads "So what are good practices to adopt when using encryption software?". The supplicant then goes on to ask about some particular possibilities for improving overall security (such as keeping your key on a disk). Given that security practices are often as important as security software, I don't see where the problem is.

    As far as possible solutions go, one interesting possibility might be dynamically generated chroot jails for network clients. For example, every time I start up lynx, my ~/.lynxrc and ~/lynx_bookmarks would get copied to ~/lynx-jail. Lynx would then be run out of ~/lynx-jail using a dynamically generated "nobody" user account. After lynx terminates, the config files get copied back and any saved files get chown'd over to my normal user account.

  • Every man is not an island by groomed (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @10:52AM
  • Its not enough by PinkyAndThaBrain (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @06:15AM
  • Word counts by CoreyG (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @07:13AM
  • Re:To answer some questions by agentZ (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @06:15AM
  • Don't run PGP on a networked computer by phr1 (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @06:57AM
  • Re:All this worry about encryption by kurioszyn (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @08:15AM
  • Re:Semtex. by m2t (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @01:04PM
  • Re:Semtex. by (codic) (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @06:03AM
  • Re:I thought the keyring was encrypted by (codic) (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @06:12AM
  • Re:Weakest link in any crypto is... post-it notes! by (codic) (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @07:53AM
  • Re:ibutton by abdulwahid (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @06:53AM
  • Re:Semtex. by gle (Score:1) Tuesday April 10 2001, @02:06AM
  • StegFS by Xardion (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @06:18AM
  • Re:Pointless... by GeekOfSpades (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @07:16AM
  • Idea for Security through Anonymity: by Cardhore (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @10:01AM
  • Re:I thought the keyring was encrypted by SecurityGuy (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @11:15AM
  • Re:non-biometric security's a sham by SecurityGuy (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @12:14PM
  • Re:How many anger-inducing stories will /. post? by ackthpt (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @06:36AM
  • Re:All this worry about encryption by ackthpt (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @03:26PM
  • by ackthpt (218170) on Monday April 09 2001, @06:00AM (#305357) Homepage Journal
    I haven't read boo about anyone having a major leak due to poor encryption. What I do hear about is

    AOL'ers so stupid they type PayPal Id's and passwords into bogus email, which forwards this on to a mailbox somewhere. (I got the spam but spotted the bogousity immediately.)

    Security holes in M$ IIS so big that it gets hacked on a regular basis, because either there are so many holes or admins can't/don't keep up. So much for a quality product.

    People who open email attachments (let alone use clients well known for their integrated virus vulnerability) even when this sort of scare has gone on for years.

    People write passwords on Post-It notes and leave them in their drawers, or que horre on the monitor.

    We have met the enemy and he is us. Never was more true.

    --

  • by n7lyg (219105) on Monday April 09 2001, @05:56AM (#305358)
    Having the keyring, of course, is not quite all there is to it. Keyrings are protected by passphrases, as well. But passphrases are not as secure as encryption keys themselves are - they are chosen by the user, and most will fall to dictionary attacks very quickly.

    The whole point of a passphrase is to use a phrase. That means more than one word! I compose a nonsense sentence with misspellings and other substitutions that make it virtually impossible to guess. Go with the suggestion of nonsense obscenity--mix in a variety of misspellings and obscenities into a usually inocuous phrase. Mix in numerics as any 31337 hax0r would (only don't stick to the 31337 rules) and you have something unguessable. There is no need to write it down, since it is memorable to you. If you need to, write yourself a hint that leads obliquely to the phrase. Someone will still have to spend a lot of time to recover a 50-60 character sentence to decode your keyring.

  • Re:Semtex. by l33t j03 (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @06:09AM
  • One decent option... by WinterSolstice (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @05:48AM
  • I've been thinking this for a while.... by linuxrunner (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @06:22AM
  • People talk of keyloggers.... by linuxrunner (Score:1) Tuesday April 10 2001, @02:42AM
  • Re:Semtex. by unicaller (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @06:18AM
  • Old Adage by Vollernurd (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @05:36AM
  • Re:Its not enough by room101 (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @06:20AM
  • Re:My dear boy by Kiss the Blade (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @06:10AM
  • Re:PGP helps my courtship. by Kiss the Blade (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @07:10AM
  • by Kiss the Blade (238661) on Monday April 09 2001, @05:42AM (#305368) Journal
    People sometimes attack PGP because it is mostly used by criminals and beast bearded dirty GNU hippies.

    But there is another demographic that uses it: Lovers.

    I have been trying to court Heidi Wall and save her sweet innocence from that bastard offspring of de Sade, shoeboy, for some time. PGP allows me to talk to her and my friends who are aiding me in complete secrecy. By using PGP, I can be much more open in my billet doux than I would ever dare to be normally, as I am sure that third parties are not watching over my shoulder.

    Speaking as a virgin, and one who has reserved his heart for one girl and one girl alone, I can say that PGP is enormously useful to me in my courtship. I hope that it further breaks out of its criminal ghetto and is used by lovers everywhere.

    If you are courting a girl, try PGP. It helps you reveal your heart.

    KTB:Lover, Poet, Artiste, Aesthete, Programmer.

  • Rubber Pipe Cryto-Analysis by Martin Spamer (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @08:42AM
  • Re:Semtex. by shyster (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @07:45AM
  • Re:Pointless... by shyster (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @07:47AM
  • Re:Use a more secure OS... (close) by shyster (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @07:52AM
  • Re:I thought the keyring was encrypted by shyster (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @07:57AM
  • Re:I thought the keyring was encrypted by shyster (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @11:24AM
  • Re:Semtex. by shyster (Score:1) Tuesday April 10 2001, @03:27AM
  • Re:ibutton by shyster (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @08:05AM
  • It's called Pretty Good Privacy for a reason, you know.

    I think what you want is the upgraded version, DGP (Damn Good Privacy), or perhaps UFBP (Unfucking-Believable Privacy). We're expected to release those upgrades Real Soon Now (tm).

  • by plcurechax (247883) on Monday April 09 2001, @06:58AM (#305378) Homepage
    Read the PGP manual [pgpi.org] it deals with these sorts of questions.

    There was already a Word marco virus Caligula [f-secure.com] that attacked the PGP secret keyring and mails it to codebreakers.org, circa 1998.

    You are mainly concerned with your private key ring, since lose or corruption of that would be the most damage. If the public key ring was modified you could alter local trust of a specified key, but it could not sign a public key without the private key.

    As others have stated the private key itself is protected by symmetric encryption (e.g. IDEA, TripleDES) and you need the passphrase to unencrypt this encryption. So, a private key protected by a poor passphrase could be brute forced using a fast dictonary search tool, similar to Alex Muffett's crack for Unix passwords.

    There are several ways to increase the security without irrating the user, such as using a floppy based key ring, using a smartcard [linuxnet.com] memory card to store your own public/private keys, using a Dallas iButton, a removable PCCard (PCMCIA) storage device, or using a crypto smart card that stores your own private/public key, and does the RSA calculations on the card, designed in a such a manner as the keys cannot be extracted from the card. This gets into Differential Power Analysis [cryptography.com] (PDA) and tamper resistance [cam.ac.uk] attacks.

    For a high security application, you could consider a hybrid smartcard and PDA (e.g. Palm), which forms a small trusted computer. Of course most security experts wouldn't call a out of the box Palm and PalmOS a trusted platform, but it's an example of a smartcard with a direct human interface (human input & output), rather than trusting a larger more complicated computer which is also more flexible because it is designed to be general purpose. Some 3G cell phones plan on having similar smartcard interfaces I believe. I think Nokia had a prototype. Of course since there have been some trojan SMS messages already seen in Europe, and with WAP expected to expand its capabilities rather than die, you can expect this to be a more virus friendly platform as cellphones evolve.

    While Bruce's Secrets and Lies shows his change of heart from the absolute security through cryptography that he and cypherpunks dreamt of in the early 90's, he now understands that absolute security in a practial system is a myth, and wants readers to think like engineers in weighing of trade-offs, how easy to use verus how secure, and how expensive vs. how secure. It is not a reason to give up on cryptography, but to realise that in designing and working with secure systems you need to look at more than just which neat cryptographic algorithms to use.

  • Re:I thought the keyring was encrypted by tritab (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @08:13AM
  • Some ideas.... (Score:5)

    by rixster (249481) on Monday April 09 2001, @05:44AM (#305380) Journal
    1) Always, whenever you create a new keypair, create a revocation key. Copy that key onto a floppy / CF / Smartmedia card etc etc, and delete it from the default store. If you're really paranoid about "sneak and peek" etc, revoke and re-issue another key when you start sending really private stuff.

    2) Make your passphrase something stupidly difficult. Even two words without spaces is n^2 (where n = number of words you know, probably about 30,000 if your averagely(sic?) smart) harder to crack.

    3) Keep up-to-date software. Remember the pgp 6.5.1 problem ? (I don't know if I have the right version, but it was something to do with not generating sufficient random numbers - although someone will probably correct me)

    4) Treat all unencrypted email as public domain. Consider it read by your boss, IT department, the recipient's boss and the recipients IT department.

    5) Treat all encrypted stuff as just encrypted for a certain period of time. All those encrypted archives that people made 10 years ago ? With todays tech, it'll probably be just a matter of hours before they're all plain text again.

    6) Use cryptology for messages that don't require it - otherwise only the interesting stuff will be attacked

    That's my 0.03 EUR. Chances are I've kept some gaping holes in their, but what the hell - have to make some posts sometimes....

  • Remember what PGP is by spacewhale (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @06:28AM
  • Meme engineering instead of Dictionaries by Databass (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @10:08PM
  • Re:Encrypt the key by nologin (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @06:09AM
  • The biggest weakness for many... by eXtro (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @05:58AM
  • Re:ibutton by Shoten (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @06:28AM
  • woohoo by deran9ed (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @05:57AM
  • Re:Use a more secure OS... (close) by markmoss (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @07:26AM
  • Re:To answer some questions by markmoss (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @07:31AM
  • Re:Use a more secure OS... (close) by markmoss (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @08:33AM
  • Re:Use a more secure OS... (close) by markmoss (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @11:52AM
  • Right way to store our private keys by Glasswire (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @05:48AM
  • Re:ibutton by Glasswire (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @05:59AM
  • Re: 5th amendment protection by Glasswire (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @06:24AM
  • Re:Physical Key Extraction by Glasswire (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @06:29AM
  • Re:Right way to store our private keys by Glasswire (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @08:23AM
  • Re:Right way to store our private keys by Glasswire (Score:1) Tuesday April 10 2001, @01:18PM
  • PGP is already a security trade-off by Atreides4 (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @12:31PM
  • Re: 5th amendment protection by ex pope john (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @04:57PM
  • Re:Weakest link in any crypto is... post-it notes! by ezzumsss (Score:1) Tuesday April 10 2001, @01:26AM
  • Re:Some ideas.... (Score:4)

    by reverse flow reactor (316530) on Monday April 09 2001, @09:02AM (#305400)

    Also, you can make use of the PGPDisk feature in recent versions of PGP. Make an encrypted PGPdisk and store you key in there. In windows, whenever you want to encrypt something, you mount the PGPDisk (under an assigned drive letter) with a password. Until you enter this password, this drive does not exist. If someone finds the PGPDisk file, they still have to crack that first. And if the PGPDisk file happens to be on the order of 100MB in size, it will be difficult to move around undetected.

    That PGPDisk may also be store on your favorite removable media to be taken with you wherever you go.

    So there you have it, redundant passpword protection, a hint of storing the key in an obscure place, and a fairly large encrypted file that may be difficult to yoink without passing under some network traffic radar.

    Now if only someone could point me to a FAQ or How-To set up a PGPDisk (preferably compatible with the windows-PGPDisk standard) or other encrypted loopback device, that would really help me out.

  • Secure? by CyberDawg (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @05:54AM
  • Re:Come on by UltraBot2K1 (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @06:06AM
  • Re:Come on by UltraBot2K1 (Score:2) Monday April 09 2001, @11:29AM
  • My dear boy (Score:5)

    by Slashdot Playboy (325301) on Monday April 09 2001, @05:58AM (#305404)
    It is good to see you taking the plunge - that first dip into the olympic-sized pool of love.

    Speaking as Slashdot Playboy since 1997, I feel I am qualified to advise young pups such as yourself on the appropriate etiquette when wooing a young lady such as this.

    I recommend you make the young lady feel in control. Remember - you are a love god and she is your willing pupil. Young ladies love a man who can show her who is boss. Speak firmly but not roughly to here.

    Do not suggest PGP to her, tell her that you will be using PGP.

    Hold this young lady by the hand. Carry her over the romantic threshold. Slather her in kisses. Make your own provision for prophylatics. Buy her a single red rose. Whisk her off to Paris. Do whatever it is it takes.

    Show this feisty young lady you are in command. Fear not the monstrous shoeboy, with his rough and ready approach to women. You shall woo her like she's never been wooed before and will never be wooed again.

    --
    Slashdot playboy.

    Slashdot love god since 1997
  • New ideas.. by popeyethesailor (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @06:34PM
  • Suggested implementation to reinforce passphrases by Vintermann (Score:1) Tuesday April 10 2001, @01:51AM
  • by Lethyos (408045) on Monday April 09 2001, @05:47AM (#305407) Journal
    I'm sorry, but this demands a rant. We've seen half a dozen of these kinds of 'news' articles on /. this year alone. Now while I'm all for questioning existing models, I think our posters need to realize this only serves to fire people up. Here's why I think this is just a ridiculous thing to post.

    If you're going to ask questions like these, you have to say, "well, is any security really secure?" And the answer to that is of course "no". "You almost certainly don't own a secure computing system with physical access controls, TEMPEST shielding, "air wall" network security, and other protections." DUH! How is this insightful? How does this lead to any meaningful solution to the problem? So what, just stop using encryption? So what, just stop assigning a root password?

    This Ask /. implies that it doesn't work at all and that we aughta just stop using it. Why? Because there's no answer - there's no solution. You can't just have everyone shield their PC's from TEMPEST - and of course, exactly how many people are getting scanned in the first place? Not everyone is willing to drop their PC into a vat of concrete with no net connection to keep people from sitting at it to gain access.

    So what's my bottom line here? "Is encryption really secure?" Well, as I mentioned, nothing is really secure, so the answer is "no". Of course then again, security works 99% of the time (or a little less), so let's just keep using it and not ask stupid questions like these. They've been thought about before.

  • Re:Pointless... by TikkaMassala (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @06:17AM
  • Encryption Demystified! by K4GPB (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @10:17AM
  • Oh well by Eustis Burbank (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @05:38AM
  • Re:PGP helps my courtship. by reverZe biaZ (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @06:54AM
  • Re:Come on by Kensaro (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @05:50AM
  • pgp = good by pr0nomatic (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @05:38AM
  • My Complaint by SpeakYourBrains (Score:1) Monday April 09 2001, @05:39AM
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