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The Internet-Have We Reached A Turning Point?
Posted by
Cliff
on Wed Mar 29, 2000 01:34 PM
from the where-cool-technology-and-bad-laws-meet dept.
from the where-cool-technology-and-bad-laws-meet dept.
Pyromage asks: "Given all the lawsuits (DeCSS, the censorware ones, etc.) and all the laws (UCITA, DMCA) that are essentially impacting the net right now, do you see it being the end of the net as we know it? As cheesy as it sounds, depending on how these events turn out, I can see it as the beginning of regulation and the end of privacy & freedom online, or as a solid precedent guarding the rights of people on the net. Thoughts?" Interesting question. Have any of you actually thought about how these events, which are developing as we speak, will affect the network that we all know and love?
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The Internet-Have We Reached A Turning Point?
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But sadly, IP is changing - and for the worse (Score:3)
Yes, but it's NOT staying the same. The clock is already ticking.
Imagine this: The FBI sets up a "Reichstag Fire", and tells Congress that they NEED to be able to track IP addresses in real-time.
The idiots on the IPv6 commitee have handed them the solution on a silver platter. All Congress has to do is pass a law which not only mandates that all ISP's use IPv6, but that they also provide the mechanisms to allow the FBI to track these connections, and listen in, if possible, in real time.
Think it can't happen? You'd be wrong. Congress just gave the telco's over $200 million to do something similar with digital phone connections; after passing a similar law back in the mid 90's.
There's nothing to stop them from doing it with IPv6; though the ISP's would bitch and moan as loudly as the phone companies, until they got enough money to do this.
So soon you'll be able to kiss your internet anonimity goodbye.
Re:Other countries exist too! (Score:3)
Re:Regulation and Taxes will happen (Score:3)
they will zealously defend their interests, through the creation of regulations and laws.
Libertarians are against regulations and laws that infringe upon life, liberty and property. We will agree with you on this one.
They will demand the regulation of the Net, they will insist on laws, and it will happen.
Libertarians are against the regulation of the net. The only laws applying to it should be for the express purpose of guaranteeing peoples rights to life, liberty and property. Including the property rights of Free Software.
Taxes are also inevitable.
Libertarians are against taxes. Some are against them completely. Others will relent to basic and necessary taxation. But you do make a statement that libertarians will take issue with: hey should be really low for small business and startups...but not for big companies. Actually, beyond the mischaracterization of libertarians, this is one of the few things in your post I disagree with. Everyone must be treated equally.
such as requiring open access to broadband pipes.
If the broadband pipe was funded through taxes, then libertarians will agree with you. I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "broadband pipes" though. If you mean access to a companies privately constructed backbone, I'll have to disagree.
Overall, you don't have any disagreements with libertarians. It's a shame that you think them hostile to freedom.
Re:Turning point -- Yes, but in our favor! (Score:3)
People have an innate preference to do all kind of stuff when it benefits them. I don't see what's so special about sharing (in this context).
I think I have a much lower opinion of human nature than you do.
IMHO, people follow their instincts. Most intellectual property laws follow against people's instincts
Don't mistake your instincts for the people's instincts. You are not typical at all and your viewpoint is the minority viewpoint. I may not agree with specific IP laws, but I think that at least the concept of IP follows natural instincts pretty well (besides, I can derive most of IP from the freedom of contract).
So, in the end, producing Intellectual Property isn't going to make any money. All jobs will be service jobs
Oh, yeah? That's a major reality check failure. Maybe you'd like the world to work this way (though I can't imagine why), but it's not going to happen.
Kaa
Turning point -- Yes, but in our favor! (Score:3)
People have an innate preference to share with others when it benefits them. This is why Free Software works, and why programs like Napster and other file sharing protocols work. Same cause, although different legalitiy...
IMHO, people follow their instincts. Most intellectual property laws follow against people's instincts, and the only think that protected them in the past was the copying cost (ie for books and movies that cost a lot to copy on paper and film).
We're going to see legal disobedience on a large scale, on the basis of what comes naturally. You can't fight that , no matter how many laws you make. Even then, smart people will find a way - they always have and always will.
So, in the end, producing Intellectual Property isn't going to make any money. All jobs will be service jobs - people are paid to create for a specific purpose or situation (like doctors and scientists and sysadmins are paid today).
We're going to win. It's just a matter of time.
-BBK
Internet Regulation by the US... (Score:3)
I wish it wasn't so but the powers that be don't understand anything about the ramifications of regulating anything tech let alone something the US doesn't own.
Re:The Lawsuits are NOT the issue... (Score:3)
Example: We need to keep people from buying portable music players which support SDMI. We could place information online about how to order stickers which say:
WARNING This product uses SDMI. SDMI is designed to maintain the music industry's monopoly over marketing and promotion of music. SDMI product have been known to restrict where you can obtain your music from, degrade the quality of independently produced mp3 music, require waisting of drive space to lissen to mp3s, and prevent you from letting your friends lissen to your music. We strongly discurage you from buying this product without further research. WE suggest instead that you learn about SDMI and purchas an mp3 player which dose not support SDMI.
People all over the country would order these stickers, distribute them at LUGs / protets
The problem is designing an efficent, cheap, and legal way of distributing such stickers. I think the most effective way would be via an affiliat program at some online sticker retaler. Perferably a retailer who would be willing to lower the unit price if large numbers of people ordered identical stickers.
Re:Turning point -- Yes, but in our favor! (Score:3)
I have to disagree here. I think at some point in the future, because of technological progress, IP will be the only thing that makes money (well, service too). Real property (other than real estate) will mostly become worthless. Why? Because, we will someday actually enter the information age (no, we're not there yet). The information age will begin when Star Trek-like replicators are invented, using nano-tech. Once that happens, the only thing worth money, will be design blueprints for the creation of objects. Want a car? Download the design plan you want, feed it into the replicator, and presto! Car made while you wait. Meanwhile, a small fee goes back to the creator of the design, and perhaps a small fee for the dirt-utility that supplies the basic matter from which your car was made.
IP, hopefully in the form of copywrite protection, rather than patent-type protection, will rule as long as we are in a capitalist economy. It will become the only property worth anything, particularly on Wall Street.
Re:Thought about it? (Score:3)
I'm not kidding. I really don't see a lot of discontent out there, and what there is, often lies within relatively single-issue groups that as often as not hate each other's guts and likely will never unite. The NARAL, the NRA, and NORML, for instance, don't typically defend each other, and my suspicion is that the intersection between the three is close to nil.
What we see, for instance, is that most folks today consider the state of the union to be pretty good. They're happy. They're reasonably well-off. They're not openly at war, and the situations in Iraq and Kosovo are probably pretty far from their minds. Many seem willing to accept more restrictions on their rights -- in particular, on speech and firearms -- in return for (allegedly) security and safety, and dismiss any protests as extremism, and protesters as kooks. I doubt you'll see a mass uprising anytime soon.
Re:Regulation and Taxes will happen (Score:3)
The good way is for business to regulate themselves and spend a few bucks working to prevent themselves from being riped off instead of spending a lot of bucks lobbying congressmen and other legislators. An example of this is would be like with napster or decss. Instead of trying to sue everyone who has anything to do with the software why not give people an incentive to go buy the movies / albums? Why not make it easy for everyone to watch DVD's on their computers? Wouldnt the money spent on this lawsuit be better spent developing software to do this very thing? And if a 17 (?) year olf guy in norway can do it, how hardwould it be for techs at Sony?
As far as music goes, why not lower the price of CD's? I mena i cant think of an album out there right now that's woth 16-18 bucks when i really only want one song. Of course Im gonna fire up Napster and go get that one song. Of course Im stilll tryign to figure out why downloadign a song from napster is bad and yet recording it from the radio is ok.
Of course the only way to ensure this happens in a positive way is to speak out. And posing at
They're not realy out to screw anyone, they just trying to make a bunch of money, and the only way to make sure they dont do this at our expense is to stand up against them in a resonable manner and with *lots* of people behind you. And, the only way to get people behind you is to reason with them and explain all the facts in a clear mannner.
After all, aren't the best decisions made when people have the best information in front of them.
Reaching the crossroads. (Score:3)
For a while, the internet was ruled by geeks and corporations could not stop us.
Now, corporations have taken control (and on occassion rightly so).
What is happening, is that regular media, and non-geeks have been paying attention and realizing what is going on. They realize that this actually effects them, and not just some geek's problem.
What has happened with the Mattel/MSI/CyberPatrol issue here, is that it had become more mainstream. People are waking up and realizing that some company abusing up a little guy, is not just some crackpot or some hacker. But they are starting to realize that they might be next.
Things will turn when the press will actually print the truth, and not rehash company press releases. Or is that what people not on the net complain about too? :)
Question... (Score:3)
How is the UCITA different from a license file that is needed to run Matlab, SAS, Mathematica, etc.? These can be computer specific and expire after a certain amount of time. The fact that the program checks for its license on another computer is no different from how Matlab works (with a license server). I see no problem with a software vendor making licenses for a specific computer. Also, isn't this how digital satelite works?
I'm not looking to change opinions, but an informed response that can tell me how UCITA will affect me: I use Linux at home, Netscrape 4.7, StarOffice, Sybase, Apache, some inetd stuff--all of which I have a license to use already. I read EULAs (believe it or not) and avoid programs which have agreements I don't like. I don't install the software to reverse-engineer a copy of it, but try to write one that does what I want it to.
As for the rest of the discussion.. everyday is a turning point in cyberspace. Remember the good old days, just last decade when only college types had access and there was no slashdot? With every innovation comes problems. More people are online (innovation) meaning that the courts are now getting involved (problem). Growing pains is what this is called. Solving them will provide more innovation causing more problems. I personally like challenges and innovation.
Just remember whose livelihood you may be tampering with when you misunderstand the word free (ie B*ll G*t*s always gets paid, but junior coder may loose a job). If you don't like a particular practice of a member of the internet community, boycott. You may find yourself in the majority and win or you may find yourself in the minority (like most of us here on slashdot) and have to suck it up.
End? No. (Score:4)
What we are seeing is restriction of absolute freedom in certain areas in exchange for higher profitability for certain entities. These businesses, governments, and special interest groups have their own requirements for their ideal web. Needless to say different peoples' ideals are quite different. As different groups attempt to determine what strength they have in this medium and new area of both our cultures and our laws, they will push the boundaries. The same behaviors have occurred every time a new frontier crops up.
Is the time of the Mecca of absulute privacy and freedom over? It never really existed, honestly. We have always used real information about people on the net. If you want to be listened to seriously, you often have to let people know who you really are. You can lie convincingly, and that was just as good. The same principle applies now. Certain information is required and certain freedoms are limited to use many new aspects of the internet. This has been happening from Day One, but now corporations are doing it through lawsuits instead of individuals killfiling you on usenet. All we are seeing is the reactions changing according to the perceived severity of the situation from the "aggrieved" party's side. If you can lie convincingly in the new ways, it is still just as good as real information and privacy.
Like all frontiers, the web will continue to "civilize" as more people seek to get rich, put in the hard work, make it their home, and proceed from the founder generation to the ones that take this frontier for granted. Things will change, but barring an international action of draconian nature, freedom and privacy will remain. Our perceptions of them are what will change.
B. Elgin
New Protocol (Score:4)
Basic protocol design:
Client sends out a broadcast regexp request to match. Servers respond (within reason) with all matching requests. Certain file extensions (implemented as loadable extension modules) can load up part of the file into memory for regexp matching as well (such as an id3 tag for mp3).
Client queries the servers which contain what it wants, for configuration compatability (in case a server has such strict security opts turned on that it won't allow you to connect, etc) and free bandwidth. The most efficient path is chosen.
A person who has a client has a server running at the same time. In their default configuration, they are encouraged to link to their friends that are outside the current network - preferably, way far away. When a client doesn't find what it wants, it will start following links on other people's systems - within reason. It won't trace very far in, and only will follow links on very idle systems. This is due to the nature of obscuring the destination. Each client on a net, when accessing a link on another computer, gets not an IP and port, but a number to refer to the link - they can't see where they're going. The relevant information gets sent to the computer with the link, which correspondingly forwards it (redoing encryption if mandated by either side of the connection). Links an be nested within each other - for example, a packet could go to XXX.XXX.XXX.21, link 3, XXX.XXX.131.42, link 1, XXX.XXX.XXX.101, and then stop there and download.
The user doesn't tell it where to search; the client keeps bookmarks of where the user has been finding things and prefers to use those links, subject to bandwidth and cpu constraints of the servers along the way. However, in 3, university-scale hops, you could get nearly anywhere in the nation, in theory. And have no clue where you're going to. (and, the only way to figure out where you're going to is confiscation of every hard drive along the way, I.e. completely infeasable for a recording industry/motion picture industry/other large corporate entity crackdown)
Additionally, I've worked out how to a) make the packets appear to be from the wrong computer, b) have the destination address be to the wrong computer, c) have both computers randomly rearrange ports at regular intervals, and d) have no recognisable contents in the packet that would give it away as being from an antioch system, and all the while having it function normally.
Note, that a) and b) require the program be run as root, b) and d) require extra cpu, and c) either require a supplied service info daemon on both ends, or on the end(s) which doesn't have one, more cpu and have to be run as root. Again, that will be configuration dependant; most people will probably choose to stick to the default configuration.
Planned encryption is GPG, or a rouch variant of it, but its support has not been implemented in our currently skeletal code.
All in all, it should be virtually impossible to firewall or track down. In fact, it should be possible, running as root, to even ensure anonymity over the local subnet, but that part of the protocol is still tentative and probably won't be implemented till after our first beta release.
Anyways, I just thought I'd share
- Rei
Yes, and things are good. (Score:5)
But, take a step back and look really hard. Know what I see? I see a bunch of corporate types who are doing nothing but making total asses out of themselves. In all of the above cases, only one did the internet come out on top. Why? Because we raised such a stink that there was nothing else that the money grubbers could do but to give in.
Things still are not over on the DeCSS front, nor the MP3 front, nor the Mattel front. We are being monkey wrenches in their corporate culture - a culture that says "money is all that counts!" and "you have no rights if it costs me a buck!" We are being attacked and we are fighting back. And ya know what? They are paying attention.
We are being told that we can't do stuff that has been done for years (reverse engineering). How are they going to stop us from doing that? They are going to have about as much success in keeping your typical hacker from doing any sort of RE as President Regan had with the moral majority type Meese Police laws back in the 80s.
I don't know about anyone else, but I personally have so much time on my hands to further monkey wrench corporate america that it is not even funny - and what is great is I never have to leave my house to do it. And neither does anyone else. Simply keep doing what you are doing. Keep coming up with great software like we are. Let them spend all their money and effort playing their little SLAP games.
This reminds me of an episode of Andy Griffith that I saw the other day. Barney Fife went to tell some road side vendors they were going to have to move. They were both bigger than he was and were very intimidating. He said something that we should all keep in mind: "You two may be bigger than I am, but just remember something - this badge represents a lot of people who are are bigger than the both of you."
And we are. You and I outnumber Mattel like crazy.
We outnumber Amazon, eToys, and the RIAA. It is time for every one of us to either put up or shut up. It is simple as that.
Regulation and Taxes will happen (Score:5)
First of all, grok this: there is too much money invested in the Net by big players and too many newbies who think they actually have privacy on the Net. I own shares in a number of corporations which are investing heavily in the Net, and they will zealously defend their interests, through the creation of regulations and laws. This is a done deal. One can complain about it, but it will happen.
Secondly, the growth of the Net implies the existence of many more clueless newbies. They will demand the regulation of the Net, they will insist on laws, and it will happen. We can shape this debate or we can fight the valiant fight against it and lose. And we will lose if we choose to fight instead of mold it in a better form.
Taxes are also inevitable. They should be lower than for bricks and mortar, but they are necessary for cities, counties, and states to pay for basic services such as roads (used by UPS to deliver your goods), rail (ditto), airports (ditto), police (to arrest the fraud mongsters), jails (to lock up the Free Net activists in), and courts (to find them guilty and protect the monied interests from having their credit cards stolen). They should be really low for small business and startups, to encourage creation of new things, but not for big companies.
This is the reality. If you want, I'll bet anyone $10 that there will be Net taxes (not on ISPs, but on sales and e-commerce) for municipal, county, and states, in existence by 2010. And there will be regulations.
We can help ensure that only the good regulations survive - such as requiring open access to broadband pipes. Or we can rail against the wind and lose.
Re:You're forgetting... (Score:5)
Bzzt. Wrong answer.
I recently saw the results of a study the UN did to determine which countries have the most freedom. They covered many different areas, from speech and religion, to the economy and the way minorities are treated.
Guess where the US placed? Not even in the top ten. Sweden was number one.
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