Recall of Segway Announced by CPSC

mshiltonj writes "The Consumer Product Safety Commission has announced a voluntary recall of the Segway human transporter. The hazard is that under certain operating conditions, particularly when the batteries are near the end of charge, some Segway HTs may not deliver enough power, allowing the rider to fall. This can happen if the rider speeds up abruptly, encounters an obstacle, or continues to ride after receiving a low-battery alert."

That explains the Shrub...

some Segway HTs may not deliver enough power, allowing the rider to fall. This can happen if the rider speeds up abruptly, encounters an obstacle, or continues to ride after receiving a low-battery alert.

or if the rider is fresh from a tennis match with Poppy, rushing to an appointment to bomb some unsuspecting nation back to the stone age [bbc.co.uk].

Re:That explains the Shrub...

But this is a guy who nearly died from a pretzel...so you can hardly blame the segway if he fell.

Re:That explains the Shrub...

"The machine's creator, Dean Kamen, wants to see US Special Forces troops eventually ride Segways into battle."

That would only toughen their image, I'm sure.

Re:That explains the Shrub...

I think the theory is that terrorists will be too convulsed with laughter to bother with shooting at them...

Re:If you mock the President, ...

Yeah, it was funny when Quayle couldn't spell "potato."

But not half as funny as your even-more-illiterate attempt to spell "broccoli."

Third grade called. They have an opening for you.

Their own dumbass fault

If you continue to ride after the low battery alert, it's your own dumbass fault if you get hurt.

It's like saying it's Fords fault your engine died because you didn't check your oil.

Re:Their own dumbass fault

Actually, that is not true in many vehicles. Most vehicles have vacuum assist brakes and they are not electrically activated (the engine must be running). See http://autos.yahoo.com/repair/results/ques145.html .

As for power steering, there are a very limited number of cars with electric power steering. To quote Jim Kerr, "So what vehicles have electric power steering? While TRW did make some systems in the early 80's, such as the Fiero that used an electric motor to drive the hydraulic power steering pump, the first real application had to be the Acura NSX. Compact, light and responsive, the steering system matched the characteristics of this aluminum bodied sports coupe. Honda again introduced a system on the S2000 sports car. Steering response and feel are excellent. Smaller, lighter electric units are also used on Honda's Hybid Insight and Civic sedan.

Saturn is using electric power steering on the Vue SUV and the Ion sedan. QuadraSteer, GM's rear wheel steering system optional on some full size trucks is a true electric steering system with no mechanical connection to the steering wheel. When GM introduces the 2004 Malibu, it will use Delphi's new E*STEER unit. Other OEM vendors of electric power steering systems are Visteon with EPAS and ZF Freidrichshafen AG with ZF Servolectric."

Re:Their own dumbass fault

These are being marketed as tools for the elderly and others, as an untippable, safe alternative to a wheelchair.

It isnt so much that they can tip over, but the fact that they're not supposed to.

Re:Their own dumbass fault

If you continue to ride after the low battery alert, it's your own dumbass fault if you get hurt. It's like saying it's Fords fault your engine died because you didn't check your oil.

How often does your engine oil require refilling? And how far can you go on an engine with low oil?

How about a Segway battery?

There's a much bigger margin for error on the car. A better analogy would be, wouldn't they recall cars if your car steering and brakes failed every time the "low gas" indicator went on.

a better comparison

A better analogy would be, wouldn't they recall cars if your car steering and brakes failed every time the "low gas" indicator went on.

You're almost there. The equivalent situation for a dead Segway battery would be a gasoline engine with no gasoline.

I've been (un)fortunate enough to run out of gas in a car as well as while riding a motorcycle, and I can tell you when you're out of gas in either one (especially if you're in a freeway situation, which I was lucky enough to be in while riding a nearly-empty motorcycle) it is completely unsafe. No gas, no power. No power means you can't keep up, and suddenly the 5-10 feet between you and the other cars seems way too close. So if I, as a driver, am too careless/stupid/whatever enough to ignore the gas light and keep driving, how the hell could I make any claim that it's the auto manufacturer's fault if I get plowed into by other freeway traffic? I think this is similar to the Segway situation, because they're giving you a warning alert, so it becomes a discretionary issue with the individual.

I'm curious to know what Segway intends to do with the units that are sent back for the recall. My guess is that they'll simply modify the Segway to shut down if the battery is low.

Re:Their own dumbass fault

I agree. Using analogies on Slashdot is like comparing apples and oranges.

Oh well...

It looks like there's going to be 3 very dissapointed people out there.

size?

Does this have anything to do with the size of the rider? If you continually fall off your Segway, maybe it's just a sign to GET OFF AND WALK for awhile.

$30M!

Perhaps the most interesting thing in this recall is that it provides information
about the total number of Segway's out there: 6,000. Given that Amazon [amazon.com]
sells them about $5,000 that means that there are $30M of Segways out there.
Of course many were probably sold below that price and Segway LLC will be sharing
that with the retailer, but still not bad for scooter.

Second, interesting thing is that the problem is fixed by a *software upgrade*
and not something physical.

John.

Software upgrades fix many problems

I don't find it interesting that a software upgrade fixes the problem.

Software upgrades are the cheapest fix for any system problem. This is why they are almost always required by devices. We (companies, not specifically Segway) can ship products early with solid hardware and must less solid software because the cost of fixing problems in software are so minimal.

This software fix probably just shuts down the scooter earlier before the battery runs all the way out. A few cars do the same with gas so that people are driving at 70mph don't loose power breaks and stearing when the engine starts studdering.

Hardware fixes can often cost more then direct replacement of the product. A simple printer circuit board rework could cost $50 each to just disassemble a product, cut a trace and reassemble it. That doesn't include the cost to ship the product back to the manufacture or to a rework house somewhere in the US.

Flash is cheap and almost all companies use it to fix sw problems in the field and work around hardware problems.

That reminds me...

As the great philosopher xterm [bash.org] once wrote,

<xterm> The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?

Imagery

I love the imagery involved in this..
*VROOM* *VROOM* *put* *put* *put* *creeeeek* *thump* OW!

Heh

All these rich people falling on their faces

Damn. Nobody ever recalled a poor boy's bicycle because it fall sideways when the riders energy runs out.

No Duh, the device is unstable

The Solution in Search of a Problem that is the Segway is inherantly unstable, and has to burn power just to stand still (balancing at an unstable equilibrium point).

That when the power starts to drain, the device becomes unstable (as the motors no longer have enough power to keep it upright after a mild upset) is hardly suprising, and indicitive of the fundimentally stupid design (but fantastic engineering) that is the segway.

In other news:

This can happen if the rider speeds up abruptly, encounters an obstacle, or continues to ride after receiving a low-battery alert.

Toyota recalled all cars manafactured since the start of the company. Under certain circumstances, when speeding up, ignoring a warning about a cliff and not braking, the car might fall down from a great heigth and kill the occupants. According to Hiyasuka Miamoto, official Toyota spokesperson, the recall will be effective immediately and no new cars will be produced "untill people stop being so fucking stupid!".

Moral of the story; warnings are called warnings for a reason.

Re:Notice the numbers?

Yes, I think we can put off 'redesigning our cities' for a bit, untill they sell a few more of them.

Society gets dumber by the minute

In other news, bicycles around the world have been voluntarily recalled. It seems that if the rider stops moving their feet, the bike could potentially tip over. A minor flaying of the skin has also been reported to occur during such accidents.

Re:Society gets dumber by the minute

To be fair to the parent poster at the point the bicycle falls over from lack of speed it too has no gyroscopic forces to aid the rider.

That's one of the reasons it falls over, because it is inherently unstable.

His point stands.

(Of course there are courses of action a cyclist can take to prevent falling over. I can stay essentially motionless on a bicycle for an arbitrary amount of time. It's easier on a track bike which has direct drive like a child's tricycle. Rider skill can be substituted for gyroscopic effect, which on a bicycle is really minimal even at speed. The castor effect is far stronger, as is just plain "body English" since the rider's weight exerts much greater force than the gyroscopic forces. Thinking of a unicycle can give a better intuitive idea of this, as they never operate at enough speed for gyroscopic effects to have any import, and if you stop pedaling they fall right over, because they are inherently unstable. Yes, I'm a bit of an expert in the field, a frame building, racing physicist who's first real research project was on the stability of bicycles and currently works on human powered machinery)

KFG

Don 't blame the users....

Pullleez---I'm speeding along the sidewalk, talking on my cellphone, checking my Palm Pilot, and now you expect me to keep an eye on the power indicator too?

Oops, damn, there goes another pedestrian....

Damn!

and my girlfriend broke up with me when both of us fell off the thing. i was only trying to impress her with my l33t segway riding skills :(

It wasn't my fault honey come backkk :'(

injuries

It's important to note that people already have been injured by the scooters. Reuters [reuters.com]

Segway has received three such reports of riders falling off, including one person who sustained a head injury that required stitches, the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission and the company said in a statement.

And I don't want anybody to say that we didn't warn you. We sure enough warned you.

This is not action by a court. This is not a lawsuit. This is action by a governmental regulatory body under George W. Bush. If they are acting under Bush, this must be a humongous problem.

In my opinion, proper use of a Segway will probably require at least a helmet.

Another reason why bicycles are better.

Funny what happens when your amazing balancing anti-walking machine runs out of juice. And once you've picked yourself up off your ass/face, you get to lug your 90lb, $5000 machine someplace safe.

The humble bicycle, as if there was any doubt, clearly reigns supreme in this class of transportation. For getting around town comfortably, get a comfortable bike. For working around the warehouse, get a work bike or trike [workbike.org]. And if you would like the electric assistance without your vehicle becoming useless when the battery runs out, get an electric bike [electric-bikes.com]. It's just that easy people.

Re:Another reason why bicycles are better.

Oh, give the segway a break. I think it's pretty damned good for a 1.0 release. Bicycles have had almost 150 years to mature. Remember the first bicycles [google.com] back in the day? How many people do you think we're look at these fools saying "wouldn't it be simpler to just walk?"

Just getting the segway a decent power supply would make for a vast improvement in stability, durability, and weight.

Translation:

The decision we made when we designed the thing was based on the idea that people would stop riding it when the battery low light came on. Since then we've realized a few things:

1) People treat battery low as "still works under all conditions" as they might if it were a gas tank. But the battery is unable to deliver the instantaneous power needed to go over certian obstacles when partially discharged.
2) The battery low signal is set too low, since even a mild partial discharge will not supply enough instantaneous power for critical maneuvers.
3) Li-Ion batteries are dieing in a pattern which we did not expect. The processor needs to assume there is less power available than what it was previously calculating.

Upshot: The software "upgrade" will give you about 10 minutes of ride time on a full charge before turning on the low battery light, then the alarm. Shortly thereafter the unit will stop in place and use its remaining power simply to stay upright.

Internal memo: Design an "upgrade" battery pack that doubles the range to 20 minutes! We'll make a killing!

-Adam

Oh no

Clearly, my car needs to be recalled. When I run out of gas, it just stops.

This could be dangerous on the highway!

No wonder Amazon wouldn't give actual numbers...

"Segway's Human Transporter, the self-balancing electric scooter that has kept technophiles abuzz for the last two years, ranks among the best-selling items on Amazon.com's Web site, the online retailer said Monday." Anybody else remember claim last December [usatoday.com]?

According to Wired [wired.com], Kamen had predicted he'd be "stamping out 10,000 machines a week" by the end of 2002.

A better fix...

Too bad the fix is just a software upgrade... seems like they could add a retractable "nose wheel" that would deploy on low battery situations.

I mean really... who wants to land their Segway in a full stall anyway?

Planning? Common Sense??

When I leave on a trip, be it short or long, I always check my gas level and make sure my lights, brakes, etc. work. It's common sense.
Falling off aside, if my battery/alternator is bad and it's a rainy night, it's my own fault if I get stranding in outer Bogonia. Same goes for fuel, brakes, and radiator.
This issue does point out a flaw with some very reasonable solutions (slow and stop upon low battery or even a third wheel stabilisation to allow the gyros to be turned off-drops/extends from the back).

Too much fodder for the basshers here.

"School Paste, it's what's for dinner!"

Get a loaner?

Do all the Segway owners with atrophied leg muscles and rotund asses get a loaner unit while their unit is in for repair?

It would be simply cruel to expect them to transport themselves under their own muscle power due to a defect in the Segway.

Might be the Segway's Achilles' heel...

...hmmm... if the device runs short of power, it sounds as if it can in effect pull your feet out from under you. (Actually, it's falling to push your feet under you). That sounds like a fairly unpleasant and dangerous kind of fall, similar to being tripped.

On a bicycle, it's easy and natural to take your foot off the pedal and put it on the ground; ditto a scooter. But perhaps it's not so easy when you're standing upright with both feet on the device.

What?

Recall it because it fails to work if someone keeps going AFTER it gives them a low battery warning???

That's like saying they should recall cars because you could run out of gas on the highway and die, even though they have a handy gas gauge and some put on a little light to tell you when you're pretty much empty. I don't think they should recall something because of user stupidity.

Now I'm not a Segway advocate by any means (I think they're ridiculous), but this is stupid.

Is recall fever spreading?

All of which...

This can happen if the rider speeds up abruptly, encounters an obstacle, or continues to ride after receiving a low-battery alert.

All of which are the rider's fault. By that logic we should recall cars, boats, and planes as well.

This is a BAD thing?

Personally, it sounds like Darwin in action to me. People that have more money than sense buy a toy, fall off, and potentially relieve the gene pool of the affliction.

So what's the problem?

Just hook the thing up to one of the TZero's [acpropulsion.com] Range extending trailers [acpropulsion.com] and the problem's solved. Hell, you might even get the thing up above 15mph! ;-)

Re:recall just for batteries??

You misunderstand the market for this device. It is basically a wheelchair targeted at old people that can't walk very well, but still would rather be in a standing position (because, let's face it, most of the world is set up for people of average height). Young people are not going to buy them because they are too slow and too expensive. However, the same people that consider riding a golf cart around a golf course to be good exercise just might buy or rent them...