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EBay Pulls MS Auctions, Neutralizes Complaints
from the I-would-like-to-neutrally-despise-you-please dept.
(Boy, a ten-day-old story. I need to start reading kuro5hin more often.)
Anyway, I know from experience that my chances of getting through to a real eBay person are approximately nil, especially on Memorial Day, so I'm not even going to try. Here are the questions I'd like to ask, and if some eBay staffer would like to answer them, feel free.
1. Regarding "VeRO," the Verified Rights Owner Program. Comments from sellers who have had their auctions yanked include:
- "I own this software. It is mine to sell."
- "Ended my perfectly legit sale."
- "I was forced to buy it from Dell, I should be able to sell it. www.linux.org"
- "I have the right to sell the Windows 98 I BOUGHT.. this is BULL SHIT....."
- "ended 2 of my legit auctions. won't respond to emails."
- "Legit auction canceled."
- "MS & Ebay Cancelled my perfectly legit auction."
- "copyright violation - on unopened retail box!"
These are not spurious complaints; they come from over a hundred eBay sellers with positive feedback ratings like 40, 253, even 476! Clearly these people are not scammers, they are legitimate and frequent eBay sellers who know the rules and who feel angry that they've been ripped off.
It is already apparent that eBay is ending perfectly legal auctions of E-Meters based on illogical and unfounded claims of copyright violation from the Church of Scientology. So "Verified Rights" doesn't mean much.
Can anyone at eBay confirm that each and every software auction terminated by Microsoft was illegal? And if not, shouldn't VeRO be renamed the "Unverified Rights Owner Program"?
2. EBay claims that, upon receiving VeRO complaints, it "reviews the reported items and, unless there is an obvious error, ends the auction." Were any of Microsoft's reports so reviewed, or were the auctions just immediately terminated?
3. Where on Questionable Items: Software is it indicated that software, unopened in the box, purchased at retail, cannot be resold?
4. Has Microsoft invoked a particular law - UCITA would be an obvious guess - in terminating these auctions? Or has it pointed to its license agreements (which for many of these auctions, apparently, would not apply)?
5. EBay's page about removing feedback doesn't mention cancelling rating of feedback, which is obviously a very important part. Isn't that misleading?
6. What did Microsoft do to get this special favor done for them - neutralization of their negative feedback? Does eBay do this for all their VeRO program members, or just Microsoft?
Update, 25 minutes later: gehrehmee pointed out Microsoft's internet piracy webpage (the URL got chopped, but deserves to be seen). Scroll to the bottom to read (emphasis added):
Microsoft and eBay have initiated an aggressive program to stop auction sites that Microsoft believes may be distributing infringing product. Microsoft monitors all auction sites and conducts daily searches to identify auctions suspected of offering counterfeit or infringing software. The company notifies eBay of suspect auctions and asks them to terminate the auctions within 24 hours.
Phrases like "due process" and "guilty until proven innocent" are coming to mind.
Re:Searching OFFICE @ auctions.msn.com reveales: (Score:3)
No surprises... (Score:5)
eBay spams. eBay lies. eBay lies about spam, eBay lies about abuse in general.
eBay does not accept complaints about usenet spam or junk email unless the complaints come from registered users - and you can't be registered without giving them, in their opinion, blanket permission to send any email they wish to describe as administrative.
Even if you cancel your account, you may get additional email; I certainly did, as did a number of other people I know.
In other words, no surprise; scum is scum.
Re:Fair? No. Cost effective? Probably. (Score:3)
Where does my license for Windows go? With the processor? The monitor? The hard disk? The RAM? Can I install Windows on any of these machines, because there's at least a piece of the original that can be installed along with Windows?
Content modification (Score:5)
Now, about potential remedies - first off there are dozens of eBay look-alikes out there. Yahoo springs to mind. Take your business elsewhere and let msoft@buddy.ebay.com [mailto] know it. Also, I think it may be possible to trick eBay into tripping over itself: I say everyone takes their old copies of Windows 3.1 and puts them on sale. When MS comes around and tries to remove them, point them to the shrink-wrap license and let 'em know that it is perfectly legal to sell it. Oh, and then sue them, of course.
Fair? No. Cost effective? Probably. (Score:4)
Ebay is a business. It's not financially sound for them to do anything besides what they are doing. Now is it right for M$ to put them in this position? Probably not. But somehow I don't see the government doing anything to stop them, and I don't see any private party with the required legal and financial backing to stop them.
You don't own Microsoft Software (Score:4)
Software Transfer.
You may permanently transfer all of your rights under this EULA only as part of a sale or transfer of the COMPUTER, provided you retain no copies, you transfer all of the SOFTWARE product (including all component parts, the media and printed materials, any upgrades, this EULA and, if applicable, the Certificate(s) of Authenticity), and the recipient agrees to the terms of this EULA. If the SOFTWARE PRODUCT is an upgrade, any transfer must include all prioir versions of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT.
Therefore if DELL makes you have the OEM version of Windows then you can not sell it without the Computer you bought from DELL. So Linux.org's was not legitamate for example.
It sucks but it is one of the reasons that Microsoft may be 2 or 3 companies in 18 months. Be happy.
Re:hmmm (Score:3)
They can resell it legally. Heck, they can even use it if they can manage to do so without being bound by the license. (a third-party program to finish the installation would work well here)
The license only revokes rights that you automatically have. But buying the machine does not make you accept it. UCITA will change things (for the worse) which is why we have to fight it but no judge nowhere is going to rule that you're bound by a license by opening the box. It's offensive.
What about upgrade versions? (Score:3)
Offtopic - pentgrams (Score:3)
Thank you, enjoy the show.
Shifting the risks (Score:3)
Right, that would indeed be a little harsh, if eBay was a sentient individual. But in reality it is just a faceless corporation. Those corporations don't think in terms of morally wrong or right, but rather in terms of fiduciary responsibility to their shareholder and in terms of risk avoidance. Any action that would make shutting down the M$ auctions more risky would push them in the right direction. And a boycott is just such an action. Whether eBay acted on its own initiative or was pressured by Microsoft is irrelevant here.
Remember: we are dealing with faceless, mechanical, non-sentient corporations here, not with individuals. You might object and point out that a company is just a collection of individuals. However, none of them will be harmed personnally: If eBay sinks, its employees will find good jobs elsewhere almost immediately, with the great job market that we have now. The CEO and other top executives have their golden parachutes. And the shareholders knew the risks they were taking (if they did their due diligence). After all, us penguinistas are not whining over Corel's share price decline either: we knew the risks and lost.
Re:religious paraphenalia (Score:3)
Somebody had to start every religion at some point in time. Why should only the really old one's be protected? Just because they were invented a long time ago? Hardly a good or fair reason.
religious paraphenalia (Score:5)
Well, maybe the *demon-summoning paraphenalia will have to go - they do tend to get wild, although in a college town who can tell? - but the pentagram is entitled to precisely as much legal protection as the bibles. A quick check shows _2971_ items matching the search word "bible," so they can't claim that they ban all auctions of religious articles.
But what happens when my girlfriend, a defrocked nun, attempts to sell her old paraphenalia? Is the mummified toe of a saint religious paraphenalia, or a mere human body part?
(To be fair, eBay shows 247 items matching "pentagram", 335 items matching "satan", and a bit more seriously 908 items matching Wicca, 1349 matching Buddha, yet only 242 items matching Baptist. They haven't been totally taken over by the crazies, yet, but have clearly let specific controversies lead their policy decisions and are establishing bad precedences.)
hmmm (Score:5)
Not sure who's palm they greased for this but there treading on pretty thin ice. One of the few doctrens of U.S. copyright law that actualy works to protect a consumers rights is First Sale.
As long as I include the entire package that I origanaly payed for I have the right too sell it to who ever I wish and the manufacturur has nothing to say about it. Be it a book, a CD or a piece of software (whatever there licence agreements say, they've been chucked out of court to many times to count) it is a protected right for me to transfer my licence to whom ever I wish without consulting the copyright holder or providing them with a royalty. They have rights to the profits from First Sale and nothing more.
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Re:Restraint of trade? (Score:3)
uSoft must feel threatened by the sale of its used software by private parties. I know of no other vendor that aggressively tries to bully normal people into not selling their used software. its sad and sick that uSoft has to have every last penny; deserved or not.
I guess if you're the 500lb gorilla, you can buy your own way and make things fair. you listening to this, US courts???
so in protest of this whole stinking matter, I hereby publicly announce and commit that I'll ONLY buy used uSoft software - if I ever have to buy that crap, at all.
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http://www.microsoft.com/piracy/basics/internet_pi (Score:4)
Test purchases and other investigations have confirmed that a significant portion of the Microsoft software sold on auction sites is counterfeit or otherwise infringing product. Microsoft has recently begun to work cooperatively with auction sites to help ensure that the software available on their sites is legal.
Microsoft and eBay have initiated an aggressive program to stop auction sites that Microsoft believes may be distributing infringing product. Microsoft monitors all auction sites and conducts daily searches to identify auctions suspected of offering counterfeit or infringing software. The company notifies eBay of suspect auctions and asks them to terminate the auctions within 24 hours. The vendors are urged to end their illegal actions, and the bidders are warned and pointed to information on software piracy. Although this program started with eBay, Microsoft has also begun similar programs with several other auction sites.
Consumers should be familiar with the warning signs of illegal software and practice safe Internet shopping in order to avoid being victimized when acquiring software from Internet auction sites.
Re:hmmm (Score:5)
The Supreme Court rejected such notices in 1908. The case is BOBBS-MERRILL CO. v. STRAUS, 210 U.S. 339 [findlaw.com](1908).
Lawyers (Score:5)
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Re:Offtopic - pentgrams (Score:3)
He explained that the points of the star represent the points of the body, with the top one representing the head. If the pentagram is right-side up, as it usually is in neopagan displays, it means "mind over body." The Satanist's pentagram is upside down, representing "body over mind."
Ebay User Agreement (Score:5)
I like this bit from the Ebay User Agreement:
Therefore, although we use industry standard practices to protect your privacy, we do not promise, and you should not expect, that your personally identifiable information or private communications will remain private .
It's always nice to see reassurance that "industry standard" means that your personal info or private communication need not remain private.
Even the RIAA is not going after people selling used or shrinkwrapped CD's.. Gah.
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eBay's behavior (Score:4)
Pretty soon they're gonna ban sales on pentagrams, demon-summoning paraphenalia, and the Necronomicon ex Mortii.
Is there anywhere on the web where it's still safe to sell Evil Things?
Microsoft Just Does Not Learn From its Mistakes (Score:3)
I am purely amazed that at this juncture in the MS-DOJ trial proceedings that M$ would engage in such a negative way on such a public forum. I mean, its not like this would go unnoticed with the vigilant /. community on the prowl. You would think that if they had even half a wit between them, they would be pulling back into their shell a bit. I think they deserve to be broken up, if not closed completely.
Its bad enough that Ebay completely violated its own policies and re-rated the user comments up a notch (apparently making some negative comments into positive ones in the process), but its worse that M$ can use Ebay to ban legitimate sales of M$ software.
Mind you I have a copy of WinNT 4.0 on CD (totally legit) but I would not want to sell it to anyone - I would not want to inflict it on anyone. But then I have a conscience - I guess Microsoft does not...
Re:hmmm (Score:3)
Re:hmmm (Score:4)
(For people who didn't follow the link and read the decision...)
"Fair use" is a part of copyright law that lets you make copies of works you posses for your own use. For instance, if I have a license to Windows 98, I can lawfully copy it onto my hard drive for use.
Fair use has one restriction: keeping the copies after giving the original to another person is infringement. Specifically, it is the copies themself that infringe, not the original work, nor the transfer of the original.
The other issue is "first sale". Copyright is a grant of monopoly, allowing the author to control how the work is published. And that's as far as the monopoly extends. Once a copy has been published, the author's only right is preventing further publication without their permission.
That a sale might cause previously noninfringing "fair use" copies to become infringing is not a cause for restraining the sale, and the sale is not subject to remedies. It simply is not part of copyright law. Sale of a lawful original copy is always lawful. It is keeping the now-infringing copies that is unlawful, and the law provides remedies for that.
In the Microsoft/eBay case, Microsoft has no cause for preventing the sale, due to the first sale doctrine. At most, when they know that copies were kept after the sale, there are other remedies that may be pursued. They are not acting out of any right or privilege of law, but out of greed.
Microsoft is committing slander and libel, by making allegations of infringement with reckless disregard for truth. Their claims also create false advertising, because they original copyright works were not advertised as being "not for resale". Finally, preventing sales constitutes restraint of trade, which is generally illegal.
And worst of all, they're doing it in collusion with another company. You'd think they would be more...uh...subtle, what with the Department of Justice breathing down their necks.
Re:Fair? No. Cost effective? Probably. (Score:5)
License Transfer
If you are seeking permission to donate or transfer software product,
software licenses, or hardware loaded with Microsoft software to another
party, you may do so without obtaining written permission provided you
follow the terms and conditions of your End User License Agreement (EULA).
All transfers of license, either through a sales transaction, donation, or
gift must include all product documentation, product manuals, original disks
and licenses. Further conditions of transfer may be included in your EULA.
The individual or entity giving up their software and license(s) must
understand that they are giving up all of their rights to the transferred
software, including all rights to upgraded versions of the software.
The specific text can be found at: [microsoft.com]
http://www.microsoft.com/permission/copyrgt/cop
of the way down the page under the heading "license transfer".
Sorry about any funky line breaks in there. I just copied it from my email... so, unless they've changed that policy in the past month or so, it's always been perfectly legal to transfer/sell your license to someone else. They're (Microsoft... I don't blame eBay for wanting to steer itself out of Microsofts sights) just being major assholes/bullies for no good reason except they think they can wring a few more dollars from the world.
More info (Score:3)
The following information is provided to help you avoid selling a prohibited or potentially infringing software item. This information is provided for all software listings, and it in no way implies anything about the listing you are currently submitting.
eBay Policy: CD-R and "beta" copies of software may not be listed on eBay unless you are the copyright owner of the software (and state that in your listing). Back-up copies of software may not be listed on eBay, regardless of the legality of your item. Sale of unauthorized copies of software probably is a copyright infringement. Under some circumstances, sale of OEM software (that comes with a computer) and "academic software" is a copyright infringement. Offering to sell infringing items may result in legal liability, the ending of your listing and/or suspension from eBay.
-Legion
Take a look at MS's own auction page (Score:5)
Boycott (Score:4)
On a related note, is there an index page somewhere which lists all of the current boycotts going on?
Re:Microsoft Just Does Not Learn From its Mistakes (Score:5)
And what exactly are the extents to which the vigilant
To MS, this isn't negative. They are 'defending' their copyright and property rights (although I think it's on rather shaky ground, their reasoning I mean). They have to do this sort of thing as part of maintaining their copyright. Microsoft would look a lot worse if they finally did manage to get a pirate into court and the pirate said, "But look, there was a lot of warezing going on right there on eBay and you did nothing."
First off, Microsoft does not need good PR or bad PR. Everyone knows who they are. They have a de facto monopoly on Windows systems. Moving away from Windows is probably hardest the move to make in the computer industry, and big companies who buy the majority of Microsoft products are not going to look at this auction as anything more than what a business needs to do, so they're not going to lose any customers there. The people this pisses off are the Slashdot crowd, who most likely aren't buying Microsoft anyway, again no lost sales there. As for the DOJ case, Microsoft telling eBay that it's piracy is happening and they need to stop it is not anything like bundling and the other issues involved with the DOJ case. Klein is not going to point at eBay and say to the judge, "Look at what Microsoft just did, Jackson! That should show they're a monopoly!" Jackson would laugh at him.
The real target here should be eBay, which has clearly violated its own stated policies. The issue here is not the fault of MS; it's that of eBay.
To summarize, it's part of business, Slashdot is not powerful enough to change the entire world's viewpoint on Microsoft, focus on eBay.
Constitutionality (Score:3)
"Innocent until proven guilty" and "due process" are constraints placed on the U.S. government. More abstractly, they are ideals which America supposedly tends to like. However, private organizations aren't required to uphold these ideals.
Unless MS goes through court to gets auctions taken down, auctioneers are only entitled to whatever scraps of fairness eBay decides to hand out.
...
Check Out This Job Description (Score:3)
Location: Redmond, Washington
Title: Ebay Warrior
Salary: 50-70K
Benefits: Full
Available: Immediately
Description: Under the direction of the legal department at Microsoft Corporation, the job holder will use the popular auction site eBay all day looking for ways to screw with disgruntled Microsoft customers looking to unload their buggy software on unsuspecting old women and teenagers.
Qualifications: The ideal candidate will have at least three months of previous unemployement, during which he or she attepted to run an at-home business selling garbage on auction sites. Lack of conscience and low self-esteem a plus. Candidates who are extremely unethical and bloodthirsty are encouraged to apply.
Seriously, someone has to do it
Neumann has been doing this too. (Score:4)
Apparently you're no longer allowed to sell things you've bought.
- A.P.
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"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
Re:This is America (Score:4)
This is america, people.
Um, no, it isn't.
It's the Internet.
If it happens to be America where you type then my condolences. All you can do is emigrate.
Or do you have data that indicates that all halted E-Bay sales were by Americans on American soil?
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Re:hmmm (Score:5)
OEM Copies- These are resold by hardware vendors with their machines. Many vendors, from Compaq and Dell down to the lowliest 'screwdriver shop' bundles these versions with their hardware to sell a complete system. Generally these sell for about $100 and have to be sold at the same time as a certain amount of hardware. I have a copy of the OEM license handy, and the current rule is that it needs to be sold along with at a minimum a motherboard or a hard drive.
'Upgrade' copies- these are the retail boxed copies sold for a standard price of $89. These copies MUST go on a machine that already has an earlier version of Windows and/or replace a legitimate copy of Windows (usually 3.1 or 3.11) that isn't in use on another machine. Many people purchase this version because it's cheaper than a 'new computer' retail box. When this upgrade version is purchased, you can no longer legally use the version of Windows that it 'ugrades' on another machine. Likewise, if you buy a Windows 98 Upgrade copy, you can not then sell off the Windows 95 copy that it replaces, or install and use the Windows 95 on another machine.
'New Computer Retail Box'- This is the most expensive way to purchase Windows 95. These copies sell off the same shelf as the Upgrade Retail box copies, for $189. These copies are intended for installation on a brand new computer, and do not require an upgrade path be in place to be legitimately licensed.
It's refreshing to have the opportunity to talk about Microsoft licensing policies in an on-topic fashion on
I personally, to be an example, have licenses to run Microsoft OSes on three separate machines.
1. I bought my Windows 3.0 'upgrade' copy back when 3.0 came out. To get the upgrade I had to present the title page from my Windows 1.0 users manual. That copy of Windows has now been upgraded from 3.0 to 3.1 and to Windows 95.
2. I bought an additional copy of Windows 98 about a year ago. It's the $189 retail box copy, which has been 'patch' upgraded to Second Edition. I didn't buy the upgrade version, because I have Windows 95 downstairs in the lab running on the machine that talks to emulators, my EPROM programmer, etc. on the workbench. The 98 machine is upstairs in the living room, an entertainment (game) machine.
3. I got in early on Windows NT by purchasing the first release (October 1992) of the Win32 SDK, which included a copy of Windows NT *very alpha*. I paid $30 for it and Microsoft shipped a second alpha release before shipping the 'final release' which included an NT 3.1 workstation license. That was upgraded to 3.51, to 4.0, and now to Windows 2000. Before Windows 2000 the upgrade paths for Windows 9x and NT were totally separate. With W2K Microsoft decided to allow people with Win 9x to upgrade to W2K, which is a significant cost savings over a full retail box copy.
Anyhow, that's the low-down, coming from someone who ran Windows 2.1 and 3.0 on an 8088 machine with a Hercules graphic card for numerous years. I believe I got a 286 a while after 3.1 came out, and I remember how cool it was to finally have '386 Enhanced Mode' running when I got a 386DX/25 (motherboard new, CPU salvaged out of a defective Northgate 386 motherboard that I got for (only!) $100.)
Hypocracy? YEAH, I THINK SO! (Score:3)
Head over to http://auctions.msn.com [msn.com].
Enter 'Windows 98' in the search field.
Browse the results.
Here are a few of the ones I found:
Microsoft Windows 98 Upgrade 2nd Edition Retail Box - $89.99
Windows 98 Second Edition + Boot Disk - $15.00
New Sealed Windows 98 Cd (Unregistered) - $32.00
Those are on the first search page. Now All I searched for was 'Windows 98', who knows how many Windows 95, 3.1, or NTs are hidden in there.
So we're not allowed to buy Microsoft software via auction websites.......unless it's MICROSOFT'S auction website? Fuck you, Microsoft.
Chalk up more evidence for the DoJ.
-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon?
Re:Microsoft Just Does Not Learn From its Mistakes (Score:4)
I feel compelled to mention that you don't have to maintain a copyright. You have to maintain a trademark, but a copyright you can let one group go and enforce on another group, ie even though the warez d00d might say that they let people on eBay go, that bears nothing in court. They could probably come back asking the d00d for specific auctions which were illegal and see what happens. Moral: No, they don't *have* to do this sort of thing to maintain their copyright.
Of course, IANAL.