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Games Entertainment

Indrema vs Xbox vs PS2 157

Posted by CmdrTaco from the course-2-of-these-are-vaporware dept.
Blond_buzzkill writes "Twin Galaxies has this article introducing the IES and comparing it to the other consoles. Most informative, however, is a chart comparing the Indrema's hardware to the Xbox and the Playstation 2. The article also says the IES will go on sale in Spring 2001, a bit ahead of either Gamecube or Xbox." I'm still pretty excited to see what comes of Indrema. I'm still waiting for the converged media box, and they've got as good of a shot as anyone.
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Indrema vs Xbox vs PS2 More

Indrema vs Xbox vs PS2

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  • Why the PS2 was so delayed. (Score:5)

    by AFCArchvile ( 221494 ) on Monday October 30, 2000 @09:52AM (#664770)
    Here's the article from The Register [theregister.co.uk] on how Sony's Nagasaki plant switched to .18 micron and essentially fudged up the release schedule.
  • Pretty cool bit of gear; the fact that the company is reluctant to quote prices is suggestive that it is likely pretty expensive...

    Unfortunately, it doesn't do anything to solve the "too many cables and components" problem I was talking about, as it provides the "MP3 server" via introducing about 4 new cables (2 for sound, 1 for power, 1 for Ethernet).

  • Forget it. They're putting a lot of effort into the encryption, since it's pivotal to their business model.

    This isn't going to be like CSS where you're dealing with an industry that until recently ignored us and doesn't understand the issues involved. You're going up against a much larger target this time.

    Besides, suppose you do get the games running. They get the license fees. They get the money. What do they care? You're playing the games and they get the money, plus they don't have to take a loss on the console. Sounds like you're just making it easier on ol' Billy Boy. And God forbid a Linux user do that... heavens no.

  • I wish the DC people would come off their high horse, the DC rollout was a total flop.

    and no, they do -not- need to be multifunction.

    remember CDI?

    focusing on game performance is what made early consoles so good, it was all they did. sure, other functions might be used by someone, but i would prefer they are optional add-ons, for those that care to pay for them.


  • This box sounds really sweet and all, I think the fact they are going to have a more widely acessiable api and development envoirment is going to be a good thing. Also in terms of horsepower, this kicks the crap out of my PC at home, my workstation at work!

    The thing I am wondering though, is sure this is a whole alot-a juice in a little box, but what price tag are they think about here?


  • The projected 1,000,000 on that date. They delivered 500,000. The other .5 million have been delayed because of component shortages.

    So, yes, there was a delay.

  • The hardware comparison chart doesn't compare CPUs. It compares only CPU clockspeed, which means, of course, absolutely nothing unless you're comparing like architectures...which this is not.

    Even though the PS2 chip is running at half the clock speed of the x86 architectures, it's doing so with a data path 4 times wider than that of the two x86 CPUs. That also doesn't take into account chip-specific features that affect performance like special instruction sets and branch prediction.
  • Someone who can afford four computers can't justify buying a console? I don't get it.

    Care about freedom?
  • multi-process management : don't need it in a game, simple threads work fine.

    What about in a personal TV recorder / mp3 box / web console / game machine (ie, that the Indrema is NOT a game console but an Entertainment System)

    filesystem : How hard is it to read ISO9660?

    and DVDs and Tivo-like FS and a FS for MP3s/games...

    virtual memory support : opps, can't have that without a HD. Even the X-box with a HD is not going to have VM.

    NB: I do not know if they are actually using the VM... but if you want share/free ware games, do you really want them crashing your TIVO recording of The Simpsons?

    device drivers : The system is supposed to be fixed. That's the beauty of console games, the hardware doesn't change. Why do you need loadable drivers?

    But they let you swap out the GPU. Again, this is more than a console, it is a new device, and I wouldn't want to throw it away just for better gaming. Plus now you can online game when we switch to IPv6 or, more importantly, whatever device drivers you can't think of now that you might want.

    In conclusion, you make intersting points but I don't think that you understand what Indrema is really trying to do.

  • Indrema would need to establish a relationship with Loki Entertaiment [lokigames.com] for their Linux game porting. That'll probably give them a bit of a start, rather than go from scratch.

    All the previous posts about Cost/Manufacturing are definitely issues. I'm curious to see screenshots too.... trying to combine all of these features (browser, DVD, MP3, Gaming... one wonders if they'll try to incorporate DVR too.) into one simple, seamless UI is EXTREMELY difficult... especially if you can only work on NTSC resolution (640x480). How many of us run on a screen at 640x480? Also buggy... the more that you support, the more buggy the system will likely be. Spring 2001 is extremely aggressive.
  • Without market share they won't be able to negotiate deals with either game developers or retailers. Without games, and the shelf space necessary to sell those games, they will die. Consoles are mass-market devices, not hard core devices. People will not tolerate ordering direct from the manufacturer, or from obscure web stores, to get the games for their consoles.

  • The freeware thing is a problem though. The difficulty is that Indrema will need to check fairly thoroughly that any software they certify doesn't do anything it shouldn't (like, say, patch the kernel to remove the certification check - the last thing they'll want is an easy, downloadable, software way to 'chip' your IES). Doing this check takes time, and therefore costs money - so how are they going to provide this service to freeware games developers, unless they severely restrict the number of freeware games they are prepared to certify?

    The only way to make the thing really secure is to have the BIOS do the certification check and refuse to boot from uncertified DVDs. Of course, when you do that, you make it impossible to install another OS on the box without Indrema's consent. Which would be a good thing for their business plan, but defeats much of the point of open source - sure, you can have the source-code to the OS, but the user can't actually install any changes he makes.

    One way or another, some freedoms are going to have to go out of the window in order for the thing to fly financially. In fact, by the time you've removed enough freedoms for profitability, you wind up with something that isn't really that much freer in practical terms than a PS2 or Xbox.

  • No one needs electronic devices (well, pacemakers and the like), if something suits your needs fine, stick with it (hence my LP/8-track collection). I don't know about you, but my PlayStation is just about toast (damn cheap CD-ROM assembly!) and the DVD player I own isn't DTS (yet my reciever is). I plan to sell my DVD player to my folks, buy a third wave PS2 and reap the benefits! Added features like the ability to play DVD's and play older PSX games only sweeten the deal. I bought my PlayStation when it first came out and I paid around $300 for mine then, with the PS2 I'll be paying the same and getting WAY more.

    Sure computer is better, but somehow sitting in my living room drinkin' brews with the gang and playing console games all night long just seems more fun than running cable all over the place or connecting online.

    Capt. Ron

  • Actually, the Personal TV may be the killer app, assuming that it is something like TiVo or ReplayTV. Although they'll need a bigger hard drive for it to have decent capacity. A game machine and a TiVo in one box would be pretty cool.

    It's only got a 10GB hard drive and no flash memory. I think this is just lameo TV, and there's still nothing good on the PC side for this, but maybe in a couple of years.

    My vote is still that the MP3 Jukebox will get more people to buy it.

  • That's very true. I was making an [incorrect?] assumption based on the current state of Linux gaming, such as using Quake 3 with the X window system. Who says it's even going to ship with X, eh?
  • Because you recieved this information from a Circuit City salesperson, we can safely assume that the oposite is true, and that Micro$oft has hardcoded the OS on chips that are soldered together, making it necessary to buy a new X-box every couple of months for bug fixes and security updates.
  • Whoa....did he just put the word "stable" in a sentence describing a Microsoft product? /me takes a deep breath and steps away.
    -
  • 300$... Hmm, that's what I payed for an Asus P2B Motherboard, 64 MB Ram, a Celeron 400, and a 10 Gig IBM Harddisk. I guess it pays to assemble your own goods.
  • if taco used WINDOWS, then it would have changed all the time AUTOMAGICALLY!

    Hey loser, my Linux box changed it's time aoutomagicaly to when the time change occured. Do some researt before you open your troll mouth.

  • Didn't see anyone else catch it, but the chart isn't totally accurate... I've been playing DVD's in my PS2 just fine without any special memory card utilities. I haven't tried playing one without my memory card in, but I don't see how that would make a difference.
  • Pretty cool bit of gear; the fact that the company is reluctant to quote prices is suggestive that it is likely pretty expensive...

    Read the FAQ -

    "Pricing starts at $695 for the diskless configuration and models with internal drive start at $995 for the 20 GB drive (see the Products page for a complete listing)."

    http://www.lansonic.com/faq_3_1_00.htm [lansonic.com]

  • How does the dreamcast compare on this chart? From what I hear about the new PS2, the dreamcast is blowing it out of the water, but that is only hear-say.


    -- Don't you hate it when people comment on other people's .sigs??
  • In the future, moron, you might want to clean up your posts before you submit them. There are several spelling errors running rampant through your text.

    Saturn, Genesis, Sega, Nintendo, Sony, Square, Dreamcast, and PS2 are all proper nouns that need to be capitalized.

    In addition it is a generally accepted practice to capitalize the first letter of the word at the beginning of each and every sentence.

    Just in case you weren't paying attention, I was defending the PS2 in my previous post. While I have not outright said it, I am not a big fan of Sega or the majority of (Genesis, Dreamcast, Saturn) games.

    In summation, please do the world a favor and do not reproduce!

    Thank you for your time.

  • The site says that the PS 2 requires a memory card for DVD playback. I watched the Matrix just fine without such accoutrement. Any word on that?
  • Maybe I'm repeating (and I hope not) but the Indrema RUNS LINUX. Check out their faq [indrema.com].. not only do they run DV, but they call linux and open source, as a development accelerator not just a business advantage, but a business necessity.

    I was intent on buying a PS2 (not an Xbox), and I probably still will unless Indrema can announce some games fast, but this is really one step closer to letting open source and linux become accepted in the main stream, not just in the tech world.

    Another question, however, is why Indrema doesn't list the fact they are running open source as a feature...

  • Big boys don't cry, they sue.
  • I would also hesitate to call the PS2 a glorified DVD player.. it is a video game console that happens to be able to play dvds :)

    While calling it a glorified DVD player may be a bit harsh, I find it rather disturbing that Sony is screwing the tech-savvy people who already have a DVD player.
    --
    Kevin Doherty
    kdoherty+slashdot@jurai.net
  • A built in MP3 jukebox is all very well, but does this thing have napster?

  • I agree, as you can see, the specs on the Indrema make xbox look kinda bad. People will see the specs, and probably buy it over xbox. PS/2 doesn't offer much of anything. PS/2 would probably wind up like the 3DO and you would be playing the larger games as slow as x-mas. Im pretty sure
    Indrema will put in a larger processor now if not later. 600mhz IS fast. And the 5-10 gigapixels is a lot better compared to xbox's 6. The marketing will be up to the consumer. If they wan't a fast machine, they get Indrema, if they want a slower one they get the xbox, if they want a slug they get the PS/2. + wouln't you like to work on your own games? it would be kinda cool. USB ports too!


    Ignore the Anonymous Pissant trolls !!!
  • This may not beat the PS2 or DC for the "hardcore" console gamers, but it may be a good way of getting Linux into the home. If the price is reasonable, I'd certainly buy one as an MP3 player and for other purposes.
  • Almost forgot.. now that the ps2 and dreamcast are both out, shouldn't we get that games icon changed?

    <joke>Considering that Sony sold over half a million units in less than a day, maybe we should change it to a dollar sign... </joke>
  • My understanding was that Sony sold there machines at cost ($299) and made their money from licensing. Microsoft is going to sell their box at cost just to get market share, money coming from services and future upgrades.
    If the Indrema machine is selling for the same price, with roughly the same hardware, where does the money come from? Not a troll, actually just curious.

  • Indrema should be rather nifty. I'll be anxious to see the head-to-head comparison.
    -
  • I see the future...

    It looks a lot like 1984....

    "Macintosh is better!"

    "No, PC is better!"

    "We're going to CHARGE for beer!"

    "Where's the beef?!?!"
  • Although this could end up just being vaporware, I certainly hope not. Even though this just seems like an X-Box clone, it sounds like it will have some major advantages (Open Source OS/Graphics engine, etc).

    However, I wonder if they're actually licensing the ability to play DVD's with the MPAA (bastards!). I'm just wondering what DVD player the system will use.

    Also have the nagging feeling M$ will "buy" the rights to the IES, and crush it before it even enters alpha testing. :(

    the unbeliever
    aim:dasubergeek99
    yahoo!:blackrose91
    ICQ:1741281

  • I've been told that the SDK for the Indrema is going to be free, and for linux. Does anybody know if it will be OSS or not?


    --
    Give a man a match, you keep him warm for an evening.

  • I noticed it's spec'd as having built-in MP3 Jukebox capabilities - this might be the killer app.
    Actually, the Personal TV may be the killer app, assuming that it is something like TiVo or ReplayTV. Although they'll need a bigger hard drive for it to have decent capacity. A game machine and a TiVo in one box would be pretty cool.
  • Indrema should be rather nifty.

    Agreed. Torg and Riff should have one shortly. :)

    Humor aside, I am looking forward to getting one of these... (The PS/1 died last month.) A lot, check that, everything will depend on the games they get.

    Personally, I'm looking for a Raiden 2 style game... :)

  • Skeptical. (Score:5)

    by CrusadeR ( 555 ) on Monday October 30, 2000 @09:59AM (#664808) Homepage
    Despite how I would like things to turn out, I still find it difficult to believe Indrema can compete with the Microsoft/Nintendo/Sega/Sony marketing machines for share of what will likely be a saturated console market in 2001/2002 (Dreamcast, PS2, GameCube, and XBox).

    Moreover, I am perturbed that Indrema has yet to announce anything with regards to developers or titles that will be available at launch.

    I wish them the best of luck, but don't hold your breath for a miracle.
  • Talk about lack of availability, Lookit the latest Ebay sales. A lot of people are really deciding to just sell the PS2's they waited a whole night for. I guess a 12 hour wait is worth about oh say, $750-$850 profit. Look at this psuedo celebrity [ebay.com] on Ebay [ebay.com] Hey! I was on cnn!
  • Yeah I was wondering about that. Is the dvd player open source - or is the decoder hardware based?

    Will iredema games run on a normal linux box?
  • One of the main reasons I got rid of my original Playstation was this:

    $150 for console. Done? No.
    $75 for extra controllers. Done? No.
    $55 for 4-way coupler. Done? No.
    $50 per game. (Say buy 7)? Done? No.
    $30 for ONE memory card. Done? Probably

    Guess what. A few games later to get the damn thing up and running and WHAM you've got $700.00 in gear. Not to mention three weeks later I was bored with the current games. And what are you missing for getting this, when you could've purchased a 900mhz Athlon Thunderbird system and got a great graphics card?

    1. No internet connection. Do I want Sony's? Can I surf the web with it, check email, etc? No.
    2. The biggest thing missing for me is this: limited hacks. Everyone remember Tribes? What made it so fun to play is the endless revisions that people were able to make, intensifying the game and adding endless more hours of fun gameplay! Get that on PS2? No. What you get is a burned in version of the game, thank you drive through.
    3. PS/2 ready for high speed cable? I don't know... but my computer sure is via nic card. For my money, I'll hold it thank you. $120 at Walmart gets me DVD when/if I want it. In the mean time I can nicely modify my other games (MS Flight Sim Pro for one), play multiplayer (Rogue Spear, etc), and eagerly await Tribes 2.... Cheers, &J

  • if taco used WINDOWS, then it would have changed all the time AUTOMAGICALLY!

    I don't know about you but I tend to run ntpd; my system time is always accurate on Linux. :-)

  • multi-process management : don't need it in a game, simple threads work fine.
    [etc...]
    Part of the point is that the Indrema doesn't try to predict everything people will try to do, at least in terms of I/O and inter-program communication. (for normal games, Sony et. al. probably do give enough flexibility)

    An Indrema could be a much better WebTV -- though it probably won't ship as such. But with a solid infrastructure, that could happen later. Linux still wouldn't be necessary, though, if it wasn't for the HD. Once you have files -- collections of MP3's, emails, bookmarks, game mods, and downloaded games -- you have to have something to manage it. And then you start downloading games, upgrading software...

    Now, if they can just keep it from becoming a PC...

  • has anyone noticed how butt ugly the indrema is? i know this company probably does not have the money or resources that sony and microsoft have to design a sleek looking machine, but please whats with all those ugly-ass curves? anyway, besides the uglyness factor, this thing is a freaking computer, not a console. upgradeable gpu slots??? i don't think the average gamer would know what the hell a gpu is, but if their target audience is not little gamer kiddies then i guess it might fly...but comparing this thing with real consoles is a bit unrealistic
  • The only way to make the thing really secure is to have the BIOS do the certification check and refuse to boot from uncertified DVDs. Of course, when you do that, you make it impossible to install another OS on the box without Indrema's consent.

    Maybe the IES doesn't boot from DVD. Maybe it boots from the internal HD (with the BIOS checking a signature on the kernel) and just runs games off the DVD under restricted permissions so they can't modify anything on the HD. This would pretty much eliminate any software "chipping".

    There are still some benefits from open source; the Indrema libraries will probably get integrated in desktop Linux distributions so that IES games can be easily ported to desktop Linux.
  • I don't know about this Indrema. I agree with others, it'll probably sell a few and there may be some interest, but I doubt it'll capture the attention of the big game houses. Yet it stands a chance of having some very good free games written for it. Sort of brings back memories of the C64, etc.

    Sony... they have a headstart, and certainly have the hype.

    Microsoft. I don't know. Honestly people don't buy products just because they say Microsoft on them, despite what others say.

    Anybody here buy a Microsoft telephone? What? No? You did know they made one, right?

    The Xbox will only sell if the design turns out to be solid. The console will need to be easy to use, durable, etc. There will also need to be a ton of cool games available.

    So far from the previews it looks like this will be the case. They are certainly working with the right people to design the internals. My fear is the chassis and how well that is built, Microsoft doesn't have nearly the experience in this as Sony has.

    Microsoft certainly has game developers on board. Microsoft is promising to reduce development costs by making the console and the PC use the same APIs. With the low margins in the gaming business, this is a good incentive.

    I really doubt you'll see Microsoft pulling the same contractual moves as Sony has been.

    Microsoft understands that the secret is in the software, and the goal to dominating the industry is to get as many software titles out as possible. Since they are the underdog, they aren't going to try to muck that up.

    As such, I fully suspect they will encourage people to develop, rather than stifling them like Sony, Nintendo, etc. have done.

    Specifically I doubt that Microsoft will charge excessive license fees, like Sony picking up an extra $10 off each title sold.

    The XBox cost will have some profit margin in it, if not they'll make it up by selling their own games. Microsoft has been buying up some game development houses over the past several years. No need for license fees when you can absorb all the profit instead.

    I doubt Microsoft will control what you can release. Nintendo has to OK the content of your game before you can sell it(I believe they've patented their ROM cartridge design), same with Sony, Sega, etc.

    If people want to produce porn games for the XBox, I don't think Microsoft is stupid, they aren't going to try to prevent that. Anything that will gain them sales...

    We'll see. Personally I don't doubt that Microsoft can pull this off from a development, and creative software point of view. My fear is that the resulting chassis will look like a piece of shit, and the mechanicals will work even worse. Microsoft just doesn't have good experience with consumer electronics.

    If anybody saw that Microsoft phone, you'll know what I'm talking about.
  • The one point that underpins your assumption is that the Indrema won't have games. Now, the Indrema folks are saying that they have some known developers working on games for their system. We'll soon find out the how notable these games will be.

    The one point to be clear on here though is that the Indrema folks realize that games are the key. That's why open source tools is such a big part of their focus. They want to enable individuals and small open source efforts to release games just like the big boys. By lowering the barrier to entry for developers, they intend to have good games by shear force of the size of their developer group.

    Now, contrast this to X-box and PS/2. Sony, has released a platform that all of the developers complain about as being too complex to get good performance out of. They decided to whip up a machine that was all bells and whistles but is too hard for developers to make use of. This will hurt them in the long run.

    The X-box was targeted at making development easy, but AT A PRICE. Microsoft's business model relies on charging huge fees for their development tools. Granted these tools, if consistent with Microsoft's past work, will be good, but it will keep casual developers and smaller efforts from developing for that platform.

    The gamble that Indrema is making is that if they can make developing on the platform open to as many people as possible, they can get more games and more interesting games that wouldn't normally find their way to the traditional platform. This is definitely a gamble, but I think they have a shot, and this is certainly no CD-I :)

    ---

  • it's open sourced - meaning that you can port Napster (or gnutella) to it by yourself.
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • I was just thinking Jaguar comparisons then I saw your post, why bother posting twice eh? You hit the nail on the head, even if hordes of OS and Nix devotees buy, it is doomed. I wish Indrema the best of luck but even Atari died with a dececent console with decent opening games (see Aliens vs Predator) Where are their deep pockets for marketing and subsidising the losses on the console. How do they expect to get by without royalty fees like Sony, Sega and Dreamcast I see no mention on their web site of even one major league developer...hmm this reeks of laterday Amiga style vapourware. Sure they will probably bring out a technically amazing console, but who will buy it ? These days it matter not whether you have the best hardware its the marketing that matters and We all know that Microsoft will have the biggest war chest for marketing, and even if their console stinks Jo Public will buy it en masse because its Microsoft. Of course Sony's PSX2 will sell by the bucket load but even they will find it hard to meet Micorsoft marketing power.
  • Indrema needs to create it's own market, and not associate itself with the PS/2, DreamCast or Xbox - whatever the hell console MicroSoft is pimping. The competition will be way too fierce, and i can't see third party developers getting behing this one when they've got other platforms like the PS/2 with a much larger user base. Instead, Indrema should appeal to the legions of hardcore geeks who want to do their computing on the sofa. Market it as a geek box, not a gaming console!
    I wish the Indrema luck though, and personally plan to support it.
  • I hate to say it, but no matter how powerful Indrema is, it will fail as a mass market game console. Why? Marketing. Ask your favorite consle gaming friends what they think of the Indrema, and they will usually respond with a "huh?". Hell, most people have no idea what the X-Box is yet.

    Another reason it will fail is because it is missing support of major developers, because they are working on more profitable platforms. Yes, there will be the open source community behind Indrema, but that just means that there will be some free games. Not that that is a bad thing, but with the X-Box's 160+ developers, and numerous ones for PS2 and Dreamcast, it stands no chance on the games front. I have not heard once of one major multi-platform game that will be ported to Indrema, and I don't think it will happen (Other then some ports of PC games like Quake 3).

    If you want an Indrema to develop for, if you could come up with something decent you could put in in a portfolio for potential employers to see, but this system will in all likelyhood be a commercial failure with a small, tight following after the system dies.

    Hopefully these guys prove me wrong, but everything I know about the console market and the business world screams "failure" pretty loudly.

  • One point was left out of their table: Games.
    --
  • Obviously, they are selling this console at a loss, just like everyone else. They are going to make money off the development tools and certifications (certifications is noted in the article). Also, it appear's to be running on commody hardware. So....

    1. All the API's are not GPL'ed. If they were, anyone could develop without Indrema's help.

    2. Even if it were using a non-X86 processor, they must release the source to the Kernel, thereby allowing hackers everywhere to remove the prebuilt OS, and install Linux on it just like they did with the iOpener.

    Sounds to me, like they are going to have a very difficult time making money of this thing, even if it sells.

  • I did play Alien VS Predator on a Jaguar before any type of regular PC would even consider producing that type of graphics. And it was a very, very impressive game at the time. Too bad it was the only one.
  • After looking at the comparison, it seems one thing is clear:

    These new consoles are all working towards becoming computers you plug into your TV. The only thing the Indrema is missing is a login shell. All you need to do is just by a kick-ass video card and plug your Linux box into your TV, and you'll be years ahead of these consoles.

    -podious
  • The market of people kicking themselves in the ass because they bought the stupid piece of trash because of specs or name but then realized that there are no games for it.

    Other consoles in that group - 3DO, Jaguar, CD-I.
  • I can't help but wonder about all the specs being thrown about on the various gaming consoles.

    I mean, PS2 is often compared to a "typical gaming PC".

    PS2 is often said to have a polygon rate of something like 12 MP/Sec., yet this article says 66, and also states the Xbox will have 150.

    It's kinda frustating to see all the numbers and wonder what's going to happen to this software-driven industry.

    There is a lot of focus on controlling the market with the switch to consoles. I have heard Sony will be forcing developers to sign many NDAs, buy $15K in software/hardware, etc.

    I'm sure that, when all is said and done, M$OFT will do the same thing.

    From that point of view alone, it would be a good thing to see indrema become a "one stop" source for open gaming needs. It could be a niche that pays off big.

    But they will be demonstable hardware that can come within maybe 10% of the competitor to really make a big splash.

    That may be tough to do, with MS and Nvidia in such a loving embrace.

  • I just want to reply to this point, the issue of whether a gaming device needs an entire Linux install is one for the advocates to chew over:

    multi-process management : don't need it in a game, simple threads work fine.

    I point out that threads are simply a light weight process, each with their own context state just like any full blown process. This means that your 'simple threading' system must support saving the stack and register state before switching to the next thread, along with a process table and some kind of queuing algorithm to determine which thread gets CPU; just like with processes.

    On a single CPU gaming console multiple lightweight threads per process is pretty much a waste... I leave it up to the reader to determine how to handle interprocess communication between full blown processes, on a gaming console or X86 Linux box. You really don't need threads until you start handling multiple asynchronous events across multiple CPUs in real time. The consoles aren't there yet.

    This is said from someone with no game programming experience... but I can't imagine it's much different from any other computer -- especially if it's running Linux.

    Cheers,
    --Maynard
  • LitteBro: Get off the indrema!! I wanna play!!
    BigBro: Hush!! My kernel 2.4.7 compile is almost done!!! Go play with the PS2 you paid 1k for in 2000!
  • but every game you just listed is already available for pcs, among other platforms. the reason i still own a console is so i can have unique games for it... not something different to play pc games on.
  • It could be the best derned platform on the planet, but you'll end up playing the 5 world's coolest demo games until you decide to fork over the cash for a PS2.

    Intellivision was better.

    Amiga was better.

    We're saying this is better now, not just because of the steller stats. But because we know it is d-o-o-m-e-d.

    Spooky Halloween coverage: Satanists Rally Against All Souls Day [ridiculopathy.com]

  • The N64 isn't technically superior in all ways to the PSX, most importantly it is still cartridge based leaving it with small amounts of storage in comparison to the CD driven PSX, which is one of the main reasons developers like Square chose not to develop for the N64.

    Someday I'll make devildog.org [devildog.org] into something.

  • What part of the words "OPEN API" did you not understand in the chart referenced by the original post? Did you even bother reading it?

    "Open"ing a API does NOT mean GPL'ing the API. Just ask Stallman, he'll give you a lecture on what Open does and does not mean, before even talking to you about the GPL.

  • So... the only thing special about the IES is that it runs Linux? I don't think the end user cares about such things, only that it plays the games from popular development houses that want a large audience (therefore profit). Why should they market it as a special feature? Every video game system has operating software. It's nothing new... Since Linux enables free software development kits. I wonder if Indrema corp is taking any steps to prevent any old joe from marketing a big turd and pass it off as an exciting game, launching the next Atari-and-the-video-game-market-crash.

    Personally I don't like its retro-70's "space-age" look. Yes this is opinion, I'm not knocking the machine just because of personal taste, but it doesn't fit in at all with my component entertainment system.
  • Despite how I would like things to turn out, I still find it difficult to believe Indrema can compete...

    There seems to be a shared assumption that Indrema has to have equivalent market share with Sega, Sony, et al or else it'll be a crashing failure. I just can't agree.

    I work for a company that recently sold for less than 1/40th the market cap of our biggest competitor. Are we a failure? If so, our owner probably isn't crying about his $15 million plus bank account from the sale proceeds, and I wouldn't mind failing on that kind of level.

    As long as Indrema can release a product that is useful and cost-effective to a reasonably good-sized group of people, they'll do ok. If it can do TIVO on a budget, MP3 jukeboxing, and a reasonable job as a computer, I know I'd be interested in one.
  • Well the SEGA Dreamcast lets you use any dialup ISP, and it's basically what you ask for, plays games and does nothing else. Not that that's bad, cos it's definitely good at playing games. Check out http://dc.ign.com to see that the Dreamcast has many quality titles. Personally I own both a PS2 and a Dreamcast. Since I can't afford any games for the PS2 yet (haha) I can't really compare the two fairly. But I must say I'm disappointed that I can't get online with my PS2 right now... there is no connectivity for it by default.
  • The comparison on that page shows that the PS2 needs software on a PS2 memory card to play a DVD. I own a US PS2 and can verify the console plays DVDs in hardware with a "driver" built into the system's firmware/bios which can be updated by software (perhaps contained on a memory card). It can certainly be used to play DVDs right out of the box with nothing extra.
  • and the Dreamcast was released in 3Q 1999 but it's current games look as good or better than most PS2 launch titles.

    And I never heard of anyone lining up to buy PS2 games because of their playability....
  • I believe the loki already has quite a few good linux games. Wouldit be that much harder to port it over to a console running linux?
  • Have you heard of LanSonic [lansonic.com]? It's a box that is basically two things in one: a rack-format MP3 player, and a network based storage unit.

    So, you can store your MP3s on this thing and play them either through your stereo (by hooking this thing up to the speakers), or through your computer (by mounting the harddrive(s) in the box over the ethernet connection).

    You can even get it in a number of harddrive configurations - including 0. So, if you've got your own drive of MP3s already, you can just move it into this box and that's it. I'm not sure what file systems the box understands, but I'm sure it's something standard...

    It seems quite reasonable, actually....
  • Hopefully they'll prove me wrong, but there is one GLARING deficiancy with this thing: No Games. If they're trying to make a game system with it that also plays DVD's, that's fine, but they've got to get out there and court developers, and courting developers requires money, lots of it and exclusive, big name titles. Remember Philips trying to pawn that thing on us? Played VCD equivilants, some games that weren't much better than what was on the 3DO and control it all with a lame remote control. Apparently this thing has nearly the same business model, albeit with better technology. So what if it can play DVD's, these set top boxes that play DVD's are slowly becomming as ubiquitous as that last gen of game systems that played CD's. Nobody's going to be ooh-ing and aww-ing over it just because it'll spin a DVD. These guys are putting a little too much emphasis on the DVD capabilities and not enough where it counts. The secret to a hit game system is GAMES GAMES GAMES GAMES, which just so happen to be the whole point of these things. Instead they're hoping people will buy it just because it's "open source" and "powered by Linux." I could give a crap about what OS is powering my game system, it just matters if the games are fun. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see this thing beat the snot out of the M$ X-Box, but I just don't see it happening, especially if they don't have the cash to court the developers.
  • They'll have open sourced marketing: Anyone with the time or air wave space is free to advertise for them.
  • From the other side of the coin, I have never owned a game console, and would have a hard time justifying such a purchase to myself (and my wife!), after all, I already waste too much time as it is. But I don't currently have a DVD player (except in my DV iMac) or mp3 jukebox, so those functions might be what actually get me to buy one.
  • The last time I moved, I arranged my "entertainment centre" so that I essentially have a "walk-in cable closet" for it. It's not quite a fire hazard, but there certainly are a whopping lot of cables.

    There most certainly is merit to having some components that integrate a bunch of functions; I am sitting now with two dilemmas; I'd be moderately interested in adding in:

    • An MP3 player (with "big hard disk"), and
    • Something like a PlayStation
    and the dilemma is that I'm not sure how I'd plug them both in. What with having DVD, VCR, and TiVO, throwing in a PlayStation gives me Yet Another Input Signal, and I'm really not sure how to hook that up.

    I am seriously not interested in PS2; it seems severely overpriced, and doesn't do enough to solve any problems I consider I have.

    But there certainly would be merit to having something that could combine the functionality of:

    • TiVo
    • PlayStation
    • DVD player
    • MP3 player
    Cut down on the cabling and on the number of boxes (and power supplies and power cables) and that is certainly worth something.
  • It'll be interesting to see what happens in the forthcoming console wars. On the hardware side, you have:

    1)PC's in a plastic box - X-Box, IES. Superficially, these appear to be more powerful, boasting 733 & 600 MHz processors respectively. Only problem is, they are designed for use on applications, not games. The pc architecture is designed around manipulating small amounts of data with a lot of code, like MS-Word working on a document. They are not designed to process huge amounts of data with a small, looped amount of code.

    2)PSX2 & (to a lesser degree perhaps) the dreamcast. These are designed, especially the PSX2, with games in mind from the ground up.They have huge bus bandwidth, and can chuck data around at a phenominal rate. In the case of the PSX2, this has been really radical, and Software Houses are reporting problems trying to come to terms with this new paradigm. It's quite unlike anything they have had to deal with before.

    On the software side, however:

    1)X-Box, IES. Who knows? Microsoft have demonstrated some games at trade shows and the like, but so far it has all been vapourware. However, they have pots of cash, and real develepor muscle, so they should have some good stuff out for release. As for the IES, I really have no idea.

    2)PSX2. Most of the games so far are pretty unimpressive, and the software houses are having difficulties as noted above.

    3)Dreamcast. It's here now, with a head start and a crop of good games, with more in the pipeline. According to some sources, the games it has presently are also technically superior to the PSX2's.

    Ultimately, it's the strength of the software that will win the day. I can't see the PSX having anything to shout about for a good while yet, especially considering Sony is'nt primarily a software developer, unlike Sega and Microsoft.I don't think the IES will make it, it just can't compete with the forces arrayed against it, be they marketing or financial. I think, in 18 months time, the PSX2 will be the next Nintendo64, and we will be looking at a straight fight between Sega and Microsoft, and possibly Nintendo.

  • If the Indrema had MAME available for it, and all 4000 games available, without crashing or mucking with controls, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

    Of course, with the TONS of licensing issue and all sorts of red tape concerning emulators, it would be impossible.
  • the article says the HD is 8/30/50 GB, while the chart says 10.

    Also, I do believe it could be GPL'd or equiv, since they are allowing freeware titles... they seem to be allowing free development. I imagine that for them to certify you for a freeware game you have to actually have a FREE game... which would give them volume and yet not eliminate the pay-game revenue stream.

    They have the much-desired ethernet interface... My guess is their open API + ethernet will allow you to do all sorts of things like netsurf and control your toaster over 10bT. Play MP3s through your stereo mixed with games... Whereas web tools will probably WORK with it, they probably won't ont he Xbox... meaning this will be able to be the WebTV non power users should actually buy, because it'll be using any ISP.

    I hope their ad department is up to it. But it seems like you'll be getting a console + a basic computer for $300... which sounds pretty sweet to me.
  • I would suggest posting more replys to the parent story as opposed to replying to other user's posts. Generally, this will get your post modded down a bit more quickly and severely.

    You may also wish to consider posting replies that will spark a personal hatred in the minds of moderators. Usually, this can be done by flaming Linux, Linus Torvalds or AMD. By causing a moderator to take personal offense to your post, you will be much more likely to be modded down to -1.

    I hope this is helpful.

  • I think it would be really cool if there were a lot of emulators available for the IES. Soc you could play all those old SNES/Genesis, C64, etc games. It should also be able to handle n64 & PSX with ease.
  • I reckon it would be worth using it just so I can sit back on the lounge and surf the web. Maybe even if it had ssh, so I can work from the lounge too, and have it all up on my big TV.
  • Geez, all sarcasm aside, I'm running Win2k, and my computer has been stable as hell since I installed it. (2 weeks and counting, no crashes/BSODs/etc) Only a microserf could possibly be excited by a mere two weeks uptime.
  • Come on guys! Sounds like the Indremeda is a homecomputer (not unlike Amiga/MSX/C64) running Linux, but sold without a keyboard. This thing will get kids programming their first "Hello world!" program (probably in Perl)!
    OpenSource games might not come out that often, but what about the demos? We could see a demo-scene coming up for this thing. The DVD drive will be used to store massive amounts of data (amateur CGI-movies anyone?) and the internet connection will allow for some pretty cool on-line gaming (playing NeverWinter Nights/Q3A on your bigscreen TV, sitting on your favorite sofa with a Coke in one hand and coke in the other ;)
    The return of homecomputers is upon us! Grab your free SDK's ASAP and start coding!
    I'll just sit here and wait for all your cool stuff to be released as the code-illiterate(sp?) game-nut I am..

  • The US systems do not need the memory card for the DVD driver - it's built into the system. In Japan you needed one, but that was also when a memory card was packaged with the system.
  • I'm sorry, but where does the Dreamcast come into play in all of this. The Sega Dreamcast didn't exactly have the greatest games available a week after it was released.

    My point was that it is unfair to compare the visual quality of PS2 vs. X-box games. I'm sure that the vapour screenshots of the PS2 looked a hell of a lot better than what was available for the Dreamcast at it's release, but that doesn't matter. The screenshots i've seen from the x-box look quite impressive, but that doesn't matter a damn bit if I can't play any of these games for another year.

  • I don't think that price (PS2) is the biggest issue here. And when people do see the price, they justify it with the fact that it is a DVD player. I'm betting alot of households that don't have a DVD player will want a PS2 to please the kids, and also have the bonus of being able to play DVDs. I would also hesitate to call the PS2 a glorified DVD player.. it is a video game console that happens to be able to play dvds :)

    As for the indrema, it looks pretty good (the integrated mp3 player is a nice plus), but i'm not sure how having many developers necessarily means good games. Maybe it will be like the C64. I remember playing both nintendo and c64, and i loved them both for their own reasons (nintendo had very fun good looking games, c64 had some very addicting games + many many other games to choose from). Each had their own forte and was popular in its own way.

    For the PS2, Indrema and X-Box, I believe most people will not follow the line of reasoning that they already have a computer and a DVD player. These 3 will integrate everything, into something that would work in a living room. Not many people I know of have their computer and DVD player and video game machine in the living room (or maybe they do... :), although it is starting to change....

  • Who knows maybe a market will be generated for low cost PCs optimized for gaming. The console market could probably only sustain a small number of console makers, but PC clone makers come and go all the time.
  • I've been trying to install W2K and it keeps failing at the very beginning while trying to load every single device driver it has. When it reaches the partitioning screen (after about 30 attempts) it refuses to install on my second drive. So much for the wonderful stable OS. I'll have to buy myself a copy of Partition Magic to move my Linux partitions out of the way just so it will install. Or else I could write off my small investment (it pays to have a kid sister at college :)) and forget about it. Thank god I didn't pay the full price, else I'd be sending email viruses to Redmond.

  • Some conjecture (Score:5)

    by DunkPonch ( 215121 ) on Monday October 30, 2000 @09:46AM (#664880) Homepage
    Let's conjecture about the possibilities of two theortical systems which have been projected for release sometime in the future. By doing this, we hope to resolve any unforeseen potential issues before they manifest themselves in a non-hypothetical form.
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • With all the news about the PS/2 reduced availability and people standing in lines to buy it it seems it all boils down to whether people can buy the thing. In this great economy everyone seems to have excess cash, but the supply of these seemingly great devices is so low only a few of the many people that want to buy the item can. Had Sony been able to produce 2x as many PS/2s they would have sold 2x as many. I worry that this new company will not have the production power to meet demand and will get swamped by the larger companies that can. The game system popularity is only partially influenced by technical specifications. The #1 factor is the available games. If a system has the "best" game it will be more popular than other technically more advanced systems. Look at the Sega Saturn or the Atari Jaguar.
  • I think the games for the Xbox are going to be better than those for the PS2. Just look at the specifications and anyone with half a brain will see the games just have to be better. I've played a lot of games and have not been disappointed by games with big system requirements. Just look at games like Daikatana. You know there's gonna be a port to Xbox. Besides, the Xbox will be much more stable than the PS2.
  • Here's an EE Times article [eetimes.com] on the same subject that has the credibility edge of not being from the Register.

  • Re:One point left out (Score:3)

    by ryancq ( 45166 ) on Monday October 30, 2000 @10:22AM (#664898)
    I thought that as well until I read this article:

    http://www.gamecenter.com /Ne ws/Item/0,3,0-4604,00.html [gamecenter.com]

    Excerpt: "The Indrema L600 is expected to launch with 30 titles next spring. Among the games currently in development are SimCity 2000, Heavy Gear 2, Quake III Arena, Diablo II, and Unreal Tournament. Industry heavyweights such as Electronic Arts, Infogrames, Havas, and Activision are supporting the L600, and Indrema is currently negotiating deals with developers and publishers to bring new content to the system. "
  • If the article is to be believed, they're planning to sell the thing for $299. Unfortunately for them, it's probably going to cost at least that to build and distribute (not to mention market). So, they'd better have some other source of revenue, because they're certainly not going to break even selling the boxes.

    Problem is, of course, that with a completely open source OS and API set, it's hard to see how they can make any money off 3rd party titles. In the traditional console model, the console vendor gets a royalty on every single copy of a game sold (or, in Nintendo's case, every single one manufactered!). They're just not going to be able to do that here. Indeed, the handy comparison chart even admits as much when it says that some games will be freeware!

    In short, although the lack of games and marketing muscle are indeed a big problem (as others have already noted), they're just a drop in the ocean compared to the gaping hole in the financial plan.

  • I don't need all this stuff... (Score:3)

    by garcia ( 6573 ) on Monday October 30, 2000 @09:49AM (#664907)
    if I were going to purchase a gaming console that is what I would want. I have no desire for an MP3 player, a DVD player, USB, etc. I want to play my games and be done w/it. The only real feature that I could possibly want is some sort of Internet access to play online games.. w/the PS2 it seems like you are going to have to go through Sony. No thanks. I want to use standard ISP's and do it like it has always been done.

    I was interested in buying a PS2, I really was, but then I took a look at the $300 pricetag and thought again. Why the hell would I need to pay $300 + $50+ for each game when all the god damn machine is is a glorified DVD player. It seems to me that they could have kept the costs down by not integrating all these unnecessary parts and actually finding out what is wanted out there.

    I already have a DVD player, it was $120 at Walmart. I already have a computer (as most people do) why would I want computer like stuff (again, other than Inet access) on there?, I already have a drinking problem, why would I waste $300 on non-beer?

    Just my .02.
  • It compares extremely well considering it has been out for almost 2 years in japan and over a year in the US.

    Excellent Graphics

    Excellent Sound

    4 Player out of the box

    200+ Games

    56K Modem built in, NIC adaptor released in jap

    Can you say fun?

    With games like Crazy Taxi, Sonic Adventure, Ecco the Dolphin, Metropolis Street Racer, NBA2K1, NFL2K1, Jet Grind Radio, Ferrari F355, Toy Commander, Phantasy Star Online, Skies of Arcadia, Quake 3 Arena, Unreal Tournament, Soul Calibur, DOA2, Tony Hawk Pro Skater, Ready 2 Rumble you can't go wrong. I mean hell, if you own 4 of any of the above titles you have had your monies worth in gaming

    The $150.00 Price tag is also much more affordable. The PS2 is newer and may have some more colors, but the DC is a choice competitor especially for having a couple years under its belt. The network play IS amasing even at 56k and the 100mbit ethernet adaptor is almost stateside (already sold in japan). There is also a keyboard & mouse combination and the web browser is usefull. (Supports Flash, HTML 3.2, Java Script, Media and mp3's).

    Your decision! But i'll preach the DC over the PS2 anyday. It is very worthwhile to on a PSX simply because of the library, but hell, if you have a PSX, the PS2 is only the same sh*t just prettier! :)

  • what's the point of linux? (Score:3)

    by jonathanclark ( 29656 ) on Monday October 30, 2000 @12:48PM (#664914) Homepage
    The article mentions the system runs linux under it all. What is the point? An OS is supposed to provide:

    multi-process management : don't need it in a game, simple threads work fine.

    filesystem : How hard is it to read ISO9660?

    virtual memory support : opps, can't have that without a HD. Even the X-box with a HD is not going to have VM.

    device drivers : The system is supposed to be fixed. That's the beauty of console games, the hardware doesn't change. Why do you need loadable drivers?

    so in conclusion, I think linux if used, will be truely bastardized to the point it is no longer linux and mearly an advertising bullet point.

    --

  • Indrema vs Xbox vs PS2.

    There is no mention of the PS2 in the article and there certainly is no "verus" comparisions with other systems.

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