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Technology

Has Hong Kong Technology Transformed China? 107

Posted by Cliff from the did-those-predictions-come-true dept.
nbruinooge asks: "I just reread Neal Stephenson's profile In the Kingdom of Mao Bell in Wired, Feb. 1994. In it Stephenson speculates about what will become of Hong Kong in '97, and predicts a Chinese backlash against Western technology in the next couple of decades. Hong Kong shifting hands is old news now, and it occurs to me that other Slashdot readers must know more than I do about how things have been going there, from a technological perspective. Is Hong Kong transforming China, or is it the other way around? Was Stephenson his good ol' prescient self when he wrote this article, or have things taken unexpected turns? And how does that China-Linux announcement from a while back play into it?"
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Is Hong Kong Transforming China, Technologywise? More

Is Hong Kong Transforming China, Technologywise?

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  • I have never seen a backlash against technology in any country; I would find it strange for china to be any different. A friend of mine recently visited China, where she grew up, and says that it hasn't changed much in the last few years. I guess because China is just some damn big that it would take A LOT to make any significant change.
  • China is a mind-set. You can't change a mind-set that has been ingrained for thousands of years with the addition of a few bells and whistles.
  • Sure, but all I care about is if I can get plastic trinkets and stereos still.

    How Can americans live without Bart Simpson Dolls that are (made in china).

  • Technology in Hong Kong (Score:3)

    by blumpy ( 84889 ) on Thursday September 28, 2000 @02:54PM (#746276)
    Having just been there last week, I can say that technologically speaking they are eons ahead of Canada if not North America. I see WAP phones everywhere (eg Motorola Accompli A6188), their bank machines scan money without the need for envelopes, incredibly dense population yet the cellular networks work great, even in the MTR tunnels. If anything, China is learning from them, in cities such as Shenzheng just outside of Hong Kong. Definately, not the other way around.

  • I think the answer is clear (Score:4)

    by karma_policeman ( 232005 ) on Thursday September 28, 2000 @02:56PM (#746277)
    Honk Kong hasn't influenced China much, and China hasn't influenced Hong Kong much, at least not yet.

    I don't think there is much chance of Hong Kong seriously affecting China as a whole for a LONG time. China is large geographically, and has a huge population, the greater part of which is rural. Hong Kong is relatively tiny, and it is ridiculous to think that Hong Kong will greatly influence China in the short term.

    So far, China has largely left Hong Kong alone. This is mainly because China knows the world is watching and it doesn't want any more bad publicity. However, if it decided to, China could do pretty much whatever it wanted to with Hong Kong.

  • Seinfeld on Chinese Technology (Score:3)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 28, 2000 @02:56PM (#746278)

    I'll tell you what I like about Chinese people... They're hanging in there with those chopsticks. Still using chopsticks. You know they've seen the fork? Oh they're well aware that we have the fork. And the spoon. I don't know how they missed it. Chinese farmer getting up working in the field with a shovel all day. Hello? Shovel there it is. You're not plowing forty acres with a couple of pool cues.

  • I'm from Hong Kong... (Score:5)

    by aliebrah ( 135162 ) on Thursday September 28, 2000 @02:56PM (#746279) Homepage
    Being from Hong Kong, I can probably offer a different perspective as to what he situation is - and that is that Hong Kong and China are developing both technologically and economically independent of each other. Remember that Hong Kong is for all purposes separate from China, and what happens in one place does not necessarily affect the other.

    I cannot think of one example of how Hong Kong is shaping China technologially, or vice versa. But one thing that I can tell you all is that China is advancing amazingly quickly technologially. They may be communist, but that does not at all mean that they are slow at adopting new technology - cable modem is now slowly sifting into big cities, mobile phones are becoming more common, and so on - its an irreversible trend.

    Hong Kong on the other hand is just about as technologically advanced as you get. Internet technology wise, cool widgets wise and all. 6.7 million people, 4 million mobile phones, 2.5 million land line phones - that says it all.
  • Apparently you are relatively unfamiliar with chinese history. Does the term "Cultrual Revolution" mean much to you? Amoung many other things, it was a backlash against technology, and any other intellectual pursuit for that matter.

    Granted, such an occurance is very unlikely in the "modern" china... However, it was considered equally unlikely when it happened.

  • Shenzheng (Score:2)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Shenzheng is kind of a model city for China. China is pouring lots of resources into Shenzheng, but mostly, it is just for propaganda purposes. China is trying to say, "Look at us, we are modern. We can compete with Hong Kong and the rest of the world. We have a modern city."

    But, what percentage of China's population lives in Shenzheng, or cities like it. I can tell you the percentage isn't very high. Most of the Chinese are still peasants. They farm for a And it's not likely that modern technology will become accessible to the Chinese as a whole in our lifetime. So, I don't think Hong Kong is influencing China as a whole that much.

  • Actually, Hong Kong is having the same effect today as it did in 90'. The biggest change happened some 20 years ago when China began shifting to a more Liberalized economic model. This happened indepenedant of Hong Kong possession. (you can thank the same President that brought us the Tiamen Massacre) I work in a Scientific Institute, with a LOT of Chinese nationals. I get the impression that the United States influence of China brings change, while Hong Kong is merely the port (literally) that it flows in and out of. Before China had control this was true.
  • I agree with you.

    One thing that you have failed to mention is that for Hong Kong to really and truely impact China, China will have to be able to afford the changes.
    Hong Kong is so much smaller than China and it had the economic resources to develop into what it is.

    China may have the resources to take some of the technology and give it to the rest of the country, but I would be suprised to see them be able to distribute even 10% of the technology to more than 30% of China's population. Not in the near future and not even in the near distant future.

    Sadly, I feel that China will be a land of the have and the have nots and the gap between them will be larger than any other country.

  • It's not the world they are worried about.
    If China wanted to ruin hong-kong, nobody could stop them.

    They lave hong-kong alone becuase they have no reason to change it. It works, it feeds them money... they will make slow adjustments as they get used to dealing with the place.

  • In response to your obvious troll...

    The Chineese DO have spoons, and have for a VERY long time. The standard table setting is a long necked spoon and chopsticks. They also use a specialized liquid spoon for soups. You can see both types of spoons in any decent Chineese restraunt.

    As to forks, bear in mind that food preparation methods evolved with the utensils. Once you know how to use them properly, chopsticks work much better for the local cuisine than do forks.

    Chopsticks don't work as well for western food for the same reason that forks do.

    By the way, it takes some learning to use a fork, too -- a couple of times I've seen asian friends stab their gums while using a fork for the first time. (Yeah, I was living on the other side of the Pacific at the time.)

  • May I suggest that anyone interested in this read Tom Clancy's The Bear and the Dragon. It's fiction, of course, but it deals in some detail with the effect of technology on Chinese politics.
  • China is big, both geographically and population-wise. If the general assumption that the benefits of technology accrue most rapidly after 50% penetration, then it will be quite a while yet before significant investment in IT infrastructure will pay off. Also you have to keep in mind that once you travel inland away from the prosperous coastal regions, you'd realise that the interior is still an agrilcultural based economy (donkeys, adobe houses, etc). Now IT may improve logistics and supply chains but first you need a decent transport network and information to calculate prices/cost (ie free market). Personally I would expect advanced countries like Japan to gain the most as IT will improve their not-so-hot service economy whereas the developing countries still need basic investments first in literacy, health and social institutions (rule of law rather than gun/nepotism). It may make it easier to absorb new tech but I'd like to point out that if you don't have the education system to create sysadmins to fix things when (not if) computers break down then you'd basically pissing money away. There's also some rather interesting research from places like "Centre for Appropriate Technology" which studies the role of tech outside big cities. For example, what is the point of a ceramic toilet (as compared with outdoor dunny) in outback Australia when you don't have the supermarkets to supply toilet paper? Rather than encourage a cargo cult mentality, perhaps it's best to let each country have access to the source and adapt it to their cultural and industrial needs as necessary.

    LL
  • Just a few years ago, Mainland China was very isolated from itself. Outside the cities, people didn't get around much. The isolation was so great that dialects diverged enough that a 30km hike from your home could easily put you in territory where you couldn't be understood.

    TV and cultrual revolutions have added a new second dialect that everybody pretty much now understands. --Kind of ironic that the boob tube is largely responsible for the unification of the PRC--

    As technologically advanced as Hong Kong is, it will supply the dream fodder for the mainland. The kids see all the beautiful techno gadgets on TV and see them in the hands of kids just like themselves.

    THAT will drive change in Mainland China more than anything else.

  • I was in Hong Kong and China in September and October 1996 for medical treatment [sorehands.com].

    While at the university hospital, I had a chance to talk with the students, and the staff.

    In China, the wages are low (head of a networking department at a university gets about $250 USD/month). It makes it hard to penetrate a market when a computer costs more two months salary. The people there are eager to learn and bright.

    The issue of not allowing the people from the mainland into Hong Kong was to prevent a rush of people from going into Hong Kong for the higher pay and overtaxing the infrastructure of HK.

  • > Typically, Asian people are a lot more self-sacrificing and willing to work for a group; they don't have the "looking out for number one" attitudes that most Western geeks do (not
    ------

    this is a stereotype that quite simply doesnt work when talking about people from mainland china. china has one of the most powerful, stable, and yet systematically corrupt governments in the world. almost EVERY person from mainland china ALWAYS looks out for number one...if they didnt, they wouldnt survive. if youve been to china or even hk you know what im talking about.

    there is no such thing as fairness in modern china. it is all about influence, money, and power. everyone who does business in china learns this, when they have to pay off every local magistrate to get work permits. there is no official who cannot be bought, in one way or another.

    try to think of what it would be like in a society where there is no such thing as justice. remember that it has been like this for 25+ years (under mao, it was complete chaos and was even worse...) do you really think that people would be that self-sacrificing?

    as for **buying** windows ME... it is DAMN HARD to even find a legal copy to purchase of ANY software or DVD in china. pretty much all you can buy is pirated copies... and that is no joke...

    unc_
  • In the last issue of Wired (I forget which version #) there was a good article on this. The avarage person can not afford a copy of windows, so everything is pirated. The government does not inforce any crack downs on piracy. China perfers windows over linux becuase its easier navigate and learn, while linux is more difficult because of lack of Chinese characters and its a little less user friendly.

    If the government inforced its laws on piracy, the people would have no choice but to go to linux.

    Their are linux compaines in China that are making it more Chinese friendly, i forget the names of the companies, and I have know idea on how well they are doing.

  • Re:China uses pirated copies of windows (Score:3)

    by Detritus ( 11846 ) on Thursday September 28, 2000 @04:09PM (#746292) Homepage
    I've read that some (most?) of the pirate CD plants are owned and run by the PLA (People's Liberation Army). This makes it a bit difficult for the government to crack down on piracy. Just think if Napster was owned by the 82nd Airborne.
  • Of course there were a backlash against technology before in China. Like the other person suggested, the "Cultural Revolution". But it is hardly happen in these days.

    Hong Kong may not change the whole China in a decade or two. But it sure is the target and the goal of a lot of people in China.

    However as China government become more open, foreign organizations (Intel, M$,... may be even AOL will, who knows...) may invest more in China. They will cause the improvment of the technology level as a whole in China.

    Knowledge of people is also a huge factor for technology improvement. But 1.2 billion people is a very big number, it's about 4.6 times more than American population. So, it's reasonable for China to go 4.6 times slower than American. But I'm sure they are not any slower in growing in technology than anywhere in the world.

    Aside: Do you know that you can find more cell phones (GSM, CDMA, Satelite Phone, Palm,...) in Hong Kong than any city in North America?

  • Why was this marked funny?

    In any case, the post is completely correct. Hong Kong is wired to the teeth. Most people have cell phones and pagers wherever they go.

    I was riding the MTR (last month when I visited), and I saw an 85 year old man speaking on a Motorola Startac. He appeared very comfortable with the technology and deftly switched off the phone when he was done with the call. Students in Hong Kong also have pagers and cell phones and often use them to keep in touch.

    Cell phone use in Hong Kong is much greater compared to the United States. Most likely, Hong Kong has one of the greatest percentages of cell phone use in the population. (I have no stats, anyone?)
  • it is a world of difference between the rural countrysides and any of the cities. while the urban areas will catch up quickly (or, in the case of hk, occasionally lead the way) it will take at least a decade for much of the tech to filter throughout the country.

    also, stephenson was both right and wrong about games...multiplayer games are very popular in the cities...there is a booming (and frequently illegal) industry in net cafes, where the majority of people are playing starcraft, ut and counterstrike. the chinese gov't recently cracked down on a lot of them, but they continue nonetheless...

    unc_
  • it should be more like what impart has AMERICAN and EUROPEAN technology had on China. Hong Kong produces virtually no original technology and from a technology commercial standpoint is more or less just a coven of American and European tech. company sales offices.......which have subsequently have opened offices and tech parks in Shanghai and Beijing.

  • Re:Is the technology the problem? (Score:5)

    by mOdQuArK! ( 87332 ) on Thursday September 28, 2000 @04:26PM (#746297)
    Typically, Asian people are a lot more self-sacrificing and willing to work for a group; they don't have the "looking out for number one" attitudes that most Western geeks do...

    My mother's Korean, but I'm pretty much culturally US, so take my observations with a big grain of salt :)

    From what I can tell by observation of my relatives & their associates (many Asian non-Koreans), it isn't so much that Asians are self-sacrificing & willing to work for a group.

    Asian individuals are just as willing to jockey for power & stab each other in the back as their Western counterparts. There's a couple things that make Westerners feel uncomfortable though. First, there's definitely a touch of xenophobia in native Asians - even my mother, who has lived in the US for 30 years, feels more comfortable working with a complete Asian stranger than she does working with a Westerner that she might know a little better.

    Second, there's the all-important concept of "face". It is a highly undesirable thing for one's self to "lose face" (look bad). One's "face" is often attached to the actions of family members as well, esp. if you are a family member of some importance. Also, by corollary, it is EXTREMELY bad manners to make someone else lose face.

    So, what ends up happening, is you have a whole bunch of people being polite to each other so that they don't cause offense by causing the other to look like they're being disrespected. Most of the time, they won't even flat-out disagree with you, even if they think you're being an idiot, because that would imply that they are questioning your judgement (trying to make you look bad).

    This drives most Westerners I know nuts, because they're getting signals that everything they say is being agreed to, then later on they'll get some kind of impersonal, vague message politely suggesting that the matter be looked at more closely.

    Amusingly enough, from the viewpoint of many of my older Asian relatives, many Westerners are considered charmingly "naive", unable to control their emotional responses during a simple conversation or discussion. (Unfortunately, from their viewpoint, this includes me :( - I'm just glad I'm family.)

  • -- Kind of ironic that the boob tube is largely responsible for the unification of the PRC --

    Why would it be ironic? that is exactly what TV has done throughout the rest of the world, created a move towards a single homogenous culture with small fluctuations which either quickly die out or explode across the entire society (example: pokemon)

  • China, Hong Kong, and Linux (Score:2)

    by Anonymous Coward
    First of all, Hong Kong is not about technology, its about real estate, money, financial knowhow, and services. So Hong Kong can help China move up the technology curve by providing venture capital, access to capital markets, etc. On the technology side, China is making rapid progress in a number of sectors, but it is very uneven. For example, after 20 years of intense government backing and inputs, the semiconductor sector is way behind the global curve. However, for telecom equipment, China is much farther along, with competitive companies across the border from Hong Kong in Shenzhen such as Huawei and Zhongxing leading the pack, producing switches, access equipment, mobile base stations, etc that are roughly on par with western producers. However, at the cutting edge, ie., highend routers, optical networking equipment, DWDM, etc. Chinese firms cant really compete yet with the likes of CISCO and Lucent. However, by converting research institutes into companies, they will be able to get closer, for example, Wuhan Research Institute is actually quite advanced on the DWDM and optical networking front, they just lack marketing. in the end, China currently lacks a whole range of piece of the high tech innovation puzzle: 1) Legal system 2) capital markets, IPOS, etc. 3) venture capital 4) government that promotes the industry, rather than hinders 5) entreprenuerial managers 6) financial system plugged into global systems (i.e., covertable currency) 7) professional and industry organizations 8) tradition of business university cooperation etc. etc. progress is being made on all these fronts, some of which Hong Kong can help with, but China must find where it fits into the globalization of IT production, like Taiwan and India, an open question right now...
  • The open source concept actually works very well with communism, but I'm not sure how much power the government wants people to possess. The gov't of China is a very power-hungry bunch of geriatrics, they can't really think out of the box. The one surprising thing is that your theory about them buying Windows ME is very wrong. If anything, Chinese don't really like to buy software. The asian front is well-known for piracy on corporate levels, even. The other contradiction to buying Windows is that the Chinese gov't (I believe) has adopted a Distro of Linux called "Yellow Star Linux" (or something like that. Maybe they're making it themselves). As a country, on a whole, China is making progress on a philosophical technological level. If only we can get rid of their gov't (someone please bomb the old-people's home they call parliament), life will be so much better. Then again, China has spent the last 100 years digging themselves into a hole, one can't expect them to dig themselves out in 5. Oh yeah, anyone heard about the "Great Wall of China"? The NEW one? Yeah, the firewall they're trying to build around all the Chinese ISP's so that nothing the gov't doesn't like will get to the people of China via the internet. It used to be that Americans can host off-shore anti-China-gov't sites and Chinese can read it. Well, they don't want that to happen anymore, since they can't prosecute the owner of the page if he doesn't live in China. Life sucks, eh?

  • It seems to me that Japan took a great jump due to the addition of a few bells and whistles. They had to advance themselves by great technological bounds and go from a very feudal mindset to a more commercially driven one. They kept some of the ideas of feudalism but transferred it from Shoguns to Executives.

    --
    Everything you've just read was poetry and art - no infringement!
    (Discordia) :: Hail Eris!
  • This post is not insightful.

    It was written by an ill-educated person with an absence of humour, desperately trying to appear PC. FYI I spent the last ten years working in the Far East and Sub Continent so have a fair experience of different cultures and what is racist - you Kwai Loi.

    Most jokes rely upon differences between culture, such as the Scottish being renown for being mean with money. I am Scottish and I find those jokes funny - It does not mean that you do not like the person or culture, you are merely enjoying the difference between them.

    That the Chinese have 5,000 years of history (only 4,600 more than the Americans {bless'em !}) provides a better background for the joke and acknowledges that the author cannot really be serious.
  • > people will go right on happily
    > buying Windows ME.

    ..."happily buying" WinME?

    All with legitimate (with the hologram and everything) licenses? :-D

  • To have sense of humor doesn't mean that racist jokes are funny!

    And I'm not from China. It doesn't necessary to be a person from China to feel the offensive comment of a racist joke.

    Sorry, off topic! There are too many confused people out there!

  • The previous poster transcribed his text from a really poor quality (imensly popular, but really poor quality, which is of course the whole basis of the American business model) American TV show called Seinfeld.

    So not only is s/he a racist, s/he's also too stupid to think up his/her own bullshit, and instead has to steal it from NBC!

  • I born and live in HK, Hong Kong doesn't have technology.
  • HK has definitely transformed China, particularly Southern China (Guangzhou). It's no coincidence that one of the first parts of China to develop economically was the border town (Shenzhen) located right next to HK. There are also cultural influences that flow from HK to mainland China and less the other way round.

    Still, it's hard to speak of economic and technological development apart from the worldwide trend towards globalization and the advent of the Internet. Basically, China has jumped dramatically as it began economic liberalization and the areas most changed are the coastal areas, esp. those near HK and Taiwan.

  • I live in Hong Kong (Score:2)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I'm a Hong Kong resident.

    It's amazed to read an article about China and Hong Kong written in 1994. Thinks are so different nowaday.

    With the economic growth, very few people has related their topic with political issue. It has nothing to do with freedom of speech, but simply people have their mind preempted by $$$.

    Something hasn't been changing, is that they still love to use Hong Kong currency, which is Int. currency in compare with Renman currency. They still love to watch Hong Kong TV. They rely heavily on Hong Kong goods, e.g. most mobile phones are imported(legally and illegially) from Hong Kong.

    It's true that M$ has been running office in China for quite sometime, but I've been told last year they've been liquidated many of the office and transfer the staffs to Hong Kong. Though M$ stil wants to do business with China, but the unsuccessful story telling them that they've charge too much for their product regardless of the living standard of China people. A suite of Office would cost an annual salary of a teacher there.

    You may be interested to know how well Linux is used there. Well, just so-so. The hype of Linux really catch China people's attention, but since they didn't pay for M$ software(go figure why ^_^), free software momentum would not impress them too much.

    However, it would make a big different with China Government. China Government has long been aware of the undocument features inside US closed-source software. The early release of Chinese (GB) Windows 95 has Easter Eggs that would play jokes on communists party and their learders. Why? Because the early relase are written by humorous Taiwanese. :)

    China goverment was not amazed. Rumor has said that they imposed pressure on M$, which limited M$'s business growth; and on the other hand develop an OS Red-Flag Linux in view of the inflitration possibilities in closed-source software. Some government officers even took the liberty to ban their sectors from using M$ products, but this policy is not nation-wide. I'm working closely with China businessmen, these are _not_ rumors.

    What is the role Hong Kong after World Trade? In fact, Hong Kong's role in China business hasn't been changed since 1994, and it'd never been changing in the future. Even after open trade, it's still _extremely_ difficult for foreign businessmen to do direct business with China, they must still rely on Hong Kong as a middleman. I could go on 10 pages of explanation, but I'll stop here because everybody doing business with China know the problems and uncertainty in China.

    However, i've to clear the common misunderstanding in the article:
    1) Slave labour - they don't have slave labour, really, none of us has seen slaves in China. They've prisoners making export goods, though. If you consider political prisoners are slaves, then there are.
    2) Mainland China people are afraid of Red Guards and Culture Rev?... - They don't! :) They are proud of being a RG before. Don't be alarmed when a China business tells you that he's a RG before, he's actually talking about his proud history! :)
    3) Corruption - well....you wouldn't feel hard if you considered it as the rules of game.... :)
    4) China government always influence business? - well, if you know how game is playing (see 3), they you wouldn't have the problem. Hong Kong people know how the game system is implemented, that's why I said Hong Kong's role as a middleman will not be changed in near future, or long future. However, if you are running a media, or news/news website, then you should be very careful on the 'law' issue. E.g. posting the news of taiwan must be handled very carefully, there's law in this issue.

    Sorry for the long article. Please comment(on the grammer ^_^).
  • Hong Kong will eventually help China become a more technologically advanced country with a higher standard of living - just don't expect instant miracles. As we speak, hundreds of people from Hong Kong are flooding into China with their cell-phones, switching their SIM-cards so that their phone will use the Chinese network (and thus the owner's cell-phone number in China). Chinese cellular comms could not be affordable without the rush of Hong Kong businessmen trying to exploit China's vast consumer base (and thus each buying a sim-card and subscribing to a cell-service in China). And in turn, because cellular-comms is affordable, lots of Chinamen can use it (ok, not a LOT by ratio, but think about it - 1 in 1000 Chinese people owning a cell is STILL a lot of people). As well, WAP will soon invade China, since the HK businessmen who work with China will also want to keep themselves up to date with their stock prices.
    Also, HK people moving to China (god forbid) also create a demand in the high-tech market. And of course, with those people leading the prices down, consumer-level technology will become affordable to everyone (and thus, you've tapped into a large consumer-base, yet again). Now, if we can only make the Chinese Razor-Imitations not so cheaply made, life would be better (but then again, if the brakes on the imitation-razor didn't burn the rubber off of cheaply made Chinese shoes, sales of imitation-nike shoes would go way down... I wonder when they'll make imitation-FUBU :)
  • So you agree that jokes are allowed to be offensive?

    And you mean that a person who is missing sense of humour is an ill-educated person. The person who say offensive jokes are not and he/she is funny.

    What a double standard, eh?

    Sorry, off topic! There are too many confused people out there.

  • You're partway right - it isn't the world they're worried about. It's Taiwan they're worried about.

    They harbor hopes of showing that "one china two systems" can work and thereby reassure Taiwan that reunification is possible and desirable.
  • Everytime I eat chicken balls and rice, I feel the fork is better. How can they stand to eat such sweet food everyday?

    I know this is probably a troll, but I can't resist...

    It sounds like you're eating American Chinese food (or Canadian Chinese food, or some other non-Chinese Chinese food). Most Chinese food isn't sweet. Most of it also doesn't consist of tiny scraps of meat engulfed in thick batter, dripping with day-glo red sauce. The stuff you're eating was developed for Westerners with a sweet tooth. The same is true about fortune cookies, incidentally.

    Most real Chinese food is easier to eat with chopsticks than a fork once you know how to use chopsticks. For example, most stir-fried meals served with steamed rice. (fried rice is a pain to eat with chopsticks -- use a spoon for that)
  • Get a life you fucking wanker. Can't take a little joke?
  • "I was riding the MTR (last month when I visited), and I saw an 85 year old man speaking on a Motorola Startac. He appeared very comfortable with the technology and deftly switched off the phone when he was done with the call. Students in Hong Kong also have pagers and cell phones and often use them to keep in touch."

    I was coming home from work on the MTR last night, when this old granny hobbled in, sat down and started playing tetris on a GameBoy.

    "Cell phone use in Hong Kong is much greater compared to the United States. Most likely, Hong Kong has one of the greatest percentages of cell phone use in the population. (I have no stats, anyone?)"

    about 70%

    dave
  • What's most frightening is that the USA just signed a PNTR (preferred nation trade relations) agreement with China.

    The government naively (or corruptly?) believes that this is going to open the Chinese market to American companies. How much better life is when you can sell American products to 1.3 *billion* people instead of a measely 275 million people!

    Sad truth is, those 1.3 billion people are, for the most part, pretty damn destitute and willing to work for dirt-cheap wages. They can manufacture product one helluva lot cheaper than America.

    Now, I dunno what the big-picture score is: are American companies so stupid as to be blind to the risk of being undercut by Chinese competition -- or are they crafty enough to recognize that it doesn't matter if it's an American or a Chinese grunting on the assembly line... as long as the corporate entity thrives and the executive-level management gets multi-million dollar bonuses each year (and, hey, that bonus is all the bigger if wages can be cut!)

    Either way, the end result for the lower- and middle-class of America is that there's going to be a net job loss in the American market.

    It's downright frightening, it is. America is headed for greater wealth-poverty disparity than it's ever seen. A lotta people gonna be wishing they had a box in a puddle in the middle of the road to live in.

    And you high-tech boys? Just how you gonna survive it? There's plenty o' smart Chinese programmers.

    As the Chinese curse goes: "May you live in interesting times."

    Times a-gonna be interesting over the next decade...

    --

  • Yes of course this was a joke.. BUT

    Chopsticks are actually more advanced than forks and knives. Forks and knives are only required when your food comes in a big mass that you have to reduce yourself, such a a dead beast. In china, thousands of years ago, they developed their cooking methods to such an extent that gross cutting and hacking of the food during the dinner was no longer necessary. All food was prepared so that it could be eaten as-is. Thus chopsticks represent an advancement in utensil technology that the west has never achieved.

  • Mr. Wong is at the hospital because his wife had a baby. After the delivery, the doctor brings the baby to him and says "Here's your beautiful new baby, Mr. Wong."

    Mr. Wong notices that the baby isn't Chinese, but white. He objects, saying that the baby isn't his. The doctor says "why would you think this baby isn't yours?"

    Mr. Wong replies, EVERYONE knows that two Wongs don't make a white!

    (And if you don't like that joke you can kiss my Chinese ass.)
  • As a Chinese and a Seinfeld fan, I'll say the first post is quick unfunny. What doesn't work is the punchline. The chopstick things is still funny.

    (since the premise of the article posted by CLiff is so stupid that I'm not in the mood of talking on topic)

    I'll take exception that Seinfeld is of poor quality. I have seen I love Lucy, I have seen Honeymooner. Seinfeld may well be the best tv comedy of US of all time. What you want to see beyond the joke is the incredible complexity of structure (in season 4-6.) And the uncompremise realism of the situation, Jerry Seinfeld's lighter take nonwithstanding.

    CY
  • Exactly, here's a dollar and get your butts to a decent Chinese restaurant in Chinatown (the ones that are 3 store big and serve mostly _Chinese_)

    CY
  • Thanks for the truth on Chinese food. I was arguing with friends about whether or not there was such a thing as "American Cuisine." I told them that the food they can find in the average Chinese restaurant here in Austin would count as 100% American. The people who invented it lived in North America 150 years ago. We might think of it as "Chinese" food, but it's as American as apple pie. And didn't we get apple pie from eastern Europe or something?
  • I would think that with the unification the very notion that Hong Kong now was again a part of China would change to a degree the mindset of the Chinese and accelerate their change into a consumer society.

    And I guess that basically would define the difference between typically capitalist societies such as the USA, Hong Kong, Western Europe and some other places, and non-capitalist societies such as China's interior and large acres of the world. Capitalist societies are defined by being highly consumer product oriented and fitting into a global culture dominated by advertising & marketing (and recently internet). As long as China isn't blanketed by marketing & advertising like most of us are they probably won't feel a great need to `become consumers'.

    But I guess traditionalists don't stand a chance, once people start wanting they'll start wanting it more and the consumer mind can flood China's interior quickly.

    Is this a good thing? Resistance is futile.

  • I'm working for a Canadian company founded by emmigrants from Hong Kong and also mainland China. The company is now involved with deployment of fixed wireless for Internet connectivity in Shanghai and other Chinese cities besides Hong Kong and also Singapore. What I've heard from the people going over there for meetings doesn't make business sound that different from one city to the next.

    What has disappointed me is that there don't seem to be any rumblings in favour of Linux trickling over from relatives of the founders. :-(

    Keeping the rumoured big adoption of Linux in China in mind with the hope it's worth some leverage later...

  • Amazes me that we can discuss the differences between communist China and practically libertarian Hong Kong without acknowledging the fact that Hong Kong has had so much economic growth because of it's free market economy.

    It's refreshing to see how wealthy a society can be without interference from the government.

    -Snoot
  • Among the "bells and whistles" you speak of is the ability to communicate more than ever before. If anything, that's been the revolution - just like the printing press, the telegraph and the telephone.
  • Actually last month I saw a begger walking down Central with sony earphones!

    But I guess he was one of those professional beggers...

  • Academics in Hong Kong are resigning right and left after it's been learned that the government has been pressuring and threatening political scientists and others not to conduct polls which show that the government has become very unpopular since the Chinese takeover. In China, meanwhile, in some cities there's a big crackdown on videogame arcades as well as on the ongoing assault on web sites that offer anything but the private line (this is a country where people were fired when a newsbroadcast ran historical footage of an old news event without realizing that in the distant background you could see the Tiananmen Square massacre going on.).
  • I have never seen a backlash against technology in any country

    Haven't looked at Cambodia too closely, have you? Ever heard of Pol Pot?

    Such things do happen.
  • The first year when I was in North America, when I read western-centered comments from westerners on Hongkong and China based on their casual observations, I would feel very angry, upset, mad, etc.

    Now, I would just laugh and forget it.

    Look, is it necessary to have a geek culture to develop good technology? Let's not forget China was advance in technology for a long time in history. There were no geek culture, yet there're ways to develop technology.

    If you ask, is there any hacker's mind in China? Yes, there is. Do hackers in China really hack? They do. Do they try to distinguish themselves from others? No, they don't, because that will troubled them and block them from their hacking activities. That's the way Chinese prefer, express implicitly and practical. They also fight for the freedom.

    It's the COST of communication that you can't find a network of hackers as you found in western world. I know, it has been rather affordable in the western world for a long time. But the same communication system is expensive in China for the last 50 years even the price is the same as in America: consider the living standard!!!

    One more thing: I don't know why western people are so against communist countries, after all, communism is a western product!!! The bad things you saw in communist countries are not because the people in power are communists, it is because they are human! From the beginning how the communists get the power is by killing each other, and the system preserves this mechanism. I know this is offensive, but I do think, if you put any great western leader in a communist country's government, he would have been either 1. got rid of by others or 2. be as "bad" as other people in a communist government.
  • As a chinese, I was quike taken by his first book. (I got the soundtarck btw, much better than John McWhatever's film) It has chinese version in china (mainland) and Taiwan. Not sure if it has HK version. By the time I follow him to that Nuclear/Super Bowl book I got totally bored out. I barely make it throught.

    The guy is done, really. A long time ago. EW said it has alot of Arian racism slang going on. The only thing puzzle me is that how can he make such a boring subject into a 1000 pages epic? What exactly is the new technology he can write about for the Chinese side??? And chinese spy system is never active outside of its chinese circle. (looks different, remember.)

    People with half brian know that Chinese economic system hasn't been socialistic for last 10 years. They keep this strange situation all due various reasons. You can blame it all to russian, however. Their capitalisation has been a disaster. And we know us won't save our ass if needed.

    I have been reading some urban japanese anthropology books. I havn't aware of any chinese counterparts. So you have to look around. The only social reseach book of comtemperary chinese I encounter (that is not in chinese) is a new york chinatown gangs and their interwin. It's very hardcore anthor. book. The author wrote both the english and the chinese versions, check it out. Also Jia Ping-Wa may well be the greatest rural novalist of the 90's. I promise you he is a lot better than us best seller types (because novelist has alot more freedom in chinese than the film makers) Find english translation if you can.

    CY
  • Jokes made out of ignorance is stupidity.

    For example. Seinfield has a joke that talks about how he thinks laudry detergent advertisement are stupid because these ads talk about how effectively the detergent can wash away blood. He went on and on about "if you have blood all over your chest, you should be worried about something else!" and on and on...

    What he doesn't realise is, half of the world population must wash bloody UNDERWEAR every month.
    ...Maybe the guy never got to have a relationship strong enough to learn these things. Maybe no women of self-respect will go out with a man who makes fun of/humiliates everyone else.

    Humor out of ignorance is no class; and only idiots would use other people's joke.

  • Re:I'm from Hong Kong... (Score:4)

    by mamahuhu ( 225334 ) on Thursday September 28, 2000 @08:37PM (#746331) Journal
    A word from the wise (or not..... I live on Hong Kong island near where the annual Fire Dragon festival is held) - listen to these people who actually live in Hong Kong and China.... there's a lot of misconceptions about this part of the world.

    1. China is huge but it's not monolithic (or monoglotic) there are 5 major languages (don't believe the notion of dialects they're mutually unintelligible) and many more ethnic groups. Northerners are different from Southerners, Easterners from Westerners and even within regions there are different Languages and people. China is more like Europe.

    2. Some parts of China are incredibly advanced producing cutting edge components for the West others are producing bulk comodity technology.

    3. Some parts are dirt poor where there's no running water, sewerage system, malnutrition and desease - it's tough dragging a huge diverse country into the 20th century - let alone the 21st.

    4. Hong Kong is Chinese but it's not China. In a way it's more Chinese than the Mainland - no cultural revolution. In fact the whole issue of what China is so problematic take the Taiwan issue for instance.

    5. Hong Kong is one of the richest places on the planet with a significant minority of people able to afford the latest toys - but it is much less techno savvy than Singapore.

    6. Hong Kong makes nothing but it is one of the largest exporters in the world. Huh? Yep Hong Kong provides the management, finance, know-how to the factories in Guangdong where everything is made - it then re-exports the products through the Hong Kong ports.

    The point of all this is that the picture is not cut and dried - you can probably make any point you like that proves or disproves Stephenson's thesis as the variables are so many. The whole issue is complicated merely by the fact that no one really understands what China is - much of it is myth devised by the Emperors and The Communist Party to maintain the idea of 'China' when in fact there is only the Empire of China(s), or the Federation of China(s). The myth of one language is typical - one language implies one people implies one state to rule them - but remember it's a myth a convenient mutual lie.

    So to answer the problem - Hong Kong and 'China' (the Guangdong bit of it)have already merged in terms of business and the business of technology. Singapore have set up a "Franchise" in Suzhou near Shanghai - (now that is a much more interesting question) and Taiwan owns large numbers of factories in Fujian - so Greater China is merging and the whole thing is becoming really dynamic.

    Hope this enlightens the discussion. :)
  • It was fascinating to read an article from several years ago on the subject that I sought out myself during my foreign exchange trip a few months ago. I stayed with a family that was nearly at the height of Chinese affluence: they had power reaching into every crevice of the government, all the way up to the top. I drove the nicest cars. I used cell phones there that didn't even exist in the United States yet. I accessed the Internet through a DSL line at the place I stayed and watched satellite TV by night. But what I saw wasn't a resistance or backlash of technology of any sort. Instead, the Chinese seem to be embracing it en masse. The city I stayed in had at least two MAJOR computer malls that regularly staged computer building races, sold the latest software (pirated and legitimate both) and sported well-equipped computers that were being bought by the Chinese like hotcakes. I conversed best I could about the X-Box and its implications to some educated Chinese nerds (they were angry about the PS2 not being released to China). The author of the article posted made it sound like the Chinese are computer lightweights; in fact, the Chinese can be as nerdy as they come, it's just a smaller percentage of the population that is that way ('cause it takes a bit of wealth to gain access to computers). But 99% of the other people I met and saw were the exact opposite--peasants selling their wares in the urban area to be able to put rice on the table for the family. That's China for you. Inconsistent as hell. Some use plows and some use Windows.

    Do I think China will get better? Of course, but first they need to solve their hunger problems fixed. Eventually the government will get its priorities straight and put their people before their need to posture for the rest of the world.

    OK, now for a list of pointless computer observations:
    Some games were REALLY popular, esp. Delta Force 2 and Age of Empires were the hot tickets when I was there, and the 3D card of choice was the Riva TNT (but the TNT2 Ultra was for sale). The most popular Intel motherboards were ASUS brand, the popular Athlon motherboard was the GA-17X (?), the most popular gamepad was a Sony Playstation counterfeit pad attached to the parallel port (I bought one called "HONY", hah!), the most popular clock speed was 600MHz (as of April), flat panels were just coming into vogue and therefore on the display of every computer I saw, and there was an entire FLOOR about 10,000 square feet PER MALL full of pirated software vendors (every one taking about 12 square feet per booth, each with well over a few thousand cds per vendor... I tried to take a picture but the guards wouldn't let me, because everybody knows it's bad, it's just nobody cares.) But despite all the computer shopping, the bicycle rides were the fun part of being there. ;)
    (ok ok ok i'm done rambling)

  • Cell phone use in Hong Kong is much greater compared to the United States

    It helps to live on a small densely populated island, e.g. HK, UK, Japan, Singapore(?), I guess, since you can cover the place with many small cells.

  • how does that China-Linux announcement from a while back play into it?

    I'm reading said book. It sort of answers the above question. Don't want to spoil it, but I can't see why China won't do what they do in the book given half a chance.

    Does anyone one know Sterling's position on using quotes from his books for sigs?

  • Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the cultural revolution more a revolution against inequality, with intellectuals enjoying a priveleged, and thus ultimatly precarious position?

    I don't know about Hong Kong, to be honest, but I heard that the chineese government hasn't been too polite with foriegn investors once they're so invested that it's hard to withdraw. They've gotten something of a bad reputation. I'm not sure what the motives of the chineese governement are for this or whether they extend to Hong Kong.



  • Having been to Hong Kong in June, I also had a personal tour around the Pearl River Delta region in June and passed through Zuhoi, Guangdong, and Shenzen (also passed through Macau). China has been developing very quickly in the past 15 years, but only in and around the SEZs (there are 4 of them). The area around Macau which is Zuhoi is a SEZ, as well as Shenzen. The other 2 SEZs I can't remember off the top of my head.

    Things in China in the SEZ areas are pretty modern now, we wide boulevards and parks in the urban areas. They also have pretty modern highways (toll mostly) that span over to a neighboring large city. This is in Guangzou province of course, I'm sure its a whole lot different in other provinces.

    Having toured through the industrial areas and checked out how they dealt business and manufactured the different things that we buy in the US and take for granted, the Chinese still have a long way to go to become proper businessmen. I witnessed something that appeared to me like lawnessnes, bartering, etc. I have also seen PLA soldiers watch some pretty crazy stuff happen and ignore it/don't care. I think they only start caring when you kill or rob someone on plain sight.

    I had a discussion with a Hong Kong businessman who worked at a Shenzen factory as a manager, and he seems to agree that the Chinese have a lot to learn to become businessmen and know how to properly attract business, make deals, etc.

    Anyway, a lot of other parts of China are still pretty backwards as we remember it from 25 years ago, and one can see things less technologically developed as you move further away from a SEZ. It will take at least another 15-20 years before we see technology trickle down to the rest of the Chinese population. There isn't much Hong Kong influence in China, except their model city Shenzen. "Sole proprietorship" businesses, restraunts and malls in Shenzen try to follow the Hong Kong model but are still playing catchup. An average Chinese person who lived in the Shenzen area is restricted in what he can possibly buy too; things that are made to be exported will not be found in the local market. Nice, high tech stuff is probably a 5 year old model. They are also restricted in how many imported cars they can buy in a time period, so most have to contend with the poorly built local makes. Their banking system is also another limiter; most people there do not keep their money in the banks because when they do need a large sum of money, they can't get it in that day (they can only get a small amount out each day). This contributes partly to a high petty crime rate.

    The atmosphere of Hong Kong is still pretty much the same as it was 15 years ago, still free, laizefare business, businesses that follow the latest trends, etc. Hong Kong has all the latest technology, embraces it, but they did not develop them. Hong Kong uses technology from Europe, America, and Japan. One can see a very good example of how Hong Kong embraces technology very easily; practically everyone there has a cellular phone (from children to seniors). Cellular coverage is excellent too, little or no interference, you can be anywhere (underground to deep inside a building) except the mountains and still get reception. I borrowed a cheap Nokia phone from a friend and used it underground on the MTR subway, as well as on the train while it was moving and had zero problems with reception. IMO, Hong Kong does not get its influence from China, but Japan instead. They blend the influence into their way of managing business and other administrative things. They also get the latest gadgetry and TV shows from Japan only a few months after it comes out usually. It will be a while before Hong Kong and China influence each other, at the moment, nothing much has changed and its definately too soon to know.

  • Maybe that's flamebeit, but there's a part of truth in it. Currently what Hong Kong people concentrate on is economy and politics. No one is really paying attention to technology, though everybody is shouting aloud and trying to boost technology level through shouting. Sad, but true. I have worked in a very big suckED company, so I know what "tech" means in Hong Kong m/billionaires' mind.

    In contradiction, seems Mainland has growing consciously on real development of technology, though a large portion of them is just bloated or just vapor. Just take those Linux distributions in Mainland for example: most of them is just copying Redhat and modifying the developer list (that makes me annoyed), but some of them is doing bits of nice things --- I remembered one distro uses wine to "port" Chinese Winword to Linux (and it reads Chinese .doc successfully).

    At least Mainland China is waking up slowly, unlike Hong Kong which is destined for death.

  • Just a little bit of info --- one of officers from the companies related to Red Flag Linux said that Chinese govn't doesn't provide much resource for Red Flag Linux, and one large company is providing this resource now instead.
  • Well, for a society which had a thriving capitlism for thousands of years, they got the hang of communism pretty quickly!
    They`ll get over it.
    Oh, and Stephenson was wrong. There was/is/will be no backlash.
  • Hong Kong already has been changing China, for several decades, now.

    Look at the huge economic build-up in Guangdong and mainland hinterlands of Hong Kong. This is a direct result of dollars and expertise flowing out of Hong Kong and into neighbouring Chinese towns and cities.

    The other "Special Economic Zones" set up along the coast were in direct response (and a counterbalance) to the success of Guangdong. And with economic success has come political power as well. The governors of Guangdong, Shenzen, Shanghai and the other SEZs have become a considerable moderating influence on the central government in Beihing.

    -deane
    Gooroos Software: plugging you in to Maya

  • the Chinese gov't (I believe) has adopted a Distro of Linux called "Yellow Star Linux" (or something like that. Maybe they're making it themselves).

    Yeah, Yellow Star Linux or Yellow Peril Linux, something like that. Interesting Freudian slip, it's actually _Red_ Star.


  • I have just read it. I have to admit, Clancy's naval and military expertise is extremely mismatched from his grasp of world politics. His extremist views and the ability of his characters to act oh, so perfectly almost ruined what was nearly a good story. Clancy's blatant xenophobia even started to piss me off - he has a highly blinkered view of the world.
    Oh, and why on earth did he think that people in Russia discuss prices in Euros?!

    ~Cederic
  • The previous post was simply saying that large-scale change CAN happen relatively quickly in China. Not what the change would/could/should be.

  • Disclaimer : I can't be arsed reading Jon Katz anymore.

    This is how Jon Katz should be writing, and what he should be writing about. Global implications of technology, the internet and privacy, and not just American libertarian concerns. Writing about the real-world, instead of trying to force himself into the graces of a given subculture he doesnt really understand. Writing about real issues, not trying to mangle the back-story for a fifteen-year-old role-playing game into some kind of metaphor about the alienation of geeks.

    Real writing, about real issues.

    Suggested sig, use it now, get the campaign rolling...

    Fire Jon Katz. Hire Neal Stephenson

    Pax,

    White Rabbit +++ Divide by Cucumber Error ++

  • An Asian man walked into the currency exchange in New York City with 2000 yen and walked out with $72. The following week, he walked in with 2000 yen, and was handed $66. He asked the teller why he got less money that week than the previous week. The teller said, "Fluctuations." The Asian man stormed out, and just before slamming the door, turned around and shouted, "Fluc you Amelicans, too!"
  • I'm from a Chinese background, as opposed to Korean, but the same caveat as to being raised in North America (though I'm one of those damned Canadians. (8-) ) But, it's got the same feel as mOdQuArK! described.

    There's one other factor on top of what was mentioned -- conformity. If you're lower on the 'totem pole' so to speak, you follow the directions and the orders of the person above you. It ties in with 'face' -> it's bad if you show disrepect for somebody, but it's really bad if that somebody is your boss, manager, teacher, supervisor, anybody who has higher status than you. Thus, they're more likely to follow team orders, at least openly. But they feel all the same feeling as everybody else -- it's just hidden more, and usually controlled better.

  • > If we dont succeed we run the risk of failure

    Whats this about? what a stupid comment. if you dont succeed, you FAIL. no maybe.
  • The chopstick was "invented" (how can you "invent" two sticks??) because more than a millenium ago, all of the land north of the Huang He was deforested. The chinese had the first energy shortage--a lack of long-burning fuel. To avoid food poisoning and parasites from under-cooked meat, they devised a method of cooking that required very little fuel, aka, The Wok. They could use a grass-fed fire, or small bits of wood, cut the meat up very small, and concentrate the heat in the bottom of the Wok where the chunks of flesh could be thoroughly cooked very quickly (not hours of roasting a haunch over an open fire).

    So, necessity was the mother of invention. It wasn't about manners. It was about not being killed from undercooking.
  • China is not changing Hong Kong and Hong Kong is not changing China. Regardless of the fact that you have two "countries" right next to each other, one on the cutting edge of technology and 80% of the other at nearly 3rd World Status does not necessarily mean that one will influence the other. Hong Kong will no doubt remain on the cutting edge of technology for many years to come, due to the fact that they are in one of the most economicaly free areas of the world (any non-Libertarians should note this). China, however, while they truly desire stepping up and greeting the new century with open arms, Big Brother is too heavily ingrained in their culture. The government wants to control all Internet Access Points. The government, while getting better, is not economically free in fact, quite the opposite. I was in China recently and have a word of advise for businesses in the US planning on moving abroad: The WTO will not mean anything to the Chinese. They are used to having things their way, and joining the WTO is not going to change that.
  • I was on Lantau Island (just last month), going to see that huge Buddah statue. There's practically not a soul actually living there, and cell phones work.

    Man, that's a big buddah.
  • sorry pal. you're out 180 degrees when you say that Asians co-operate more generally than Westerners. Not true. I spent 15 years in Asia and It's dog eat dog. Used to watch folks like you get off the plane with your spiffy tropical suit, laptop, pocket full of money, preconceptions in place, and climb back on a month later picked clean. About the only time they co-operate is when they're gonna skin you. Then they're gonna fight over the pickings. Family gtoups are tighter than here, and extended family groups, but most of what you claim is a dream. A delusion.
  • i currently live in hong kong,... heres a couple of things for you to think on. hong kong and china are both developing independently, and are governed independently, however they of course would have certain links. when hong kong was handed back over to china in 1997, the chinese government decided the success of hong kong was due to its unique nature, and governing it like the rest of china would cause it to lose its international flair--so therefore decided it should be governed independently. this is why hong kong is now known as the Hong Kong SAR (Special Administrative Region). mr. tung chee hwa was selected as the chief designate (the big guy), and decided hong kong should be run very similiar to the way it previously was--not a single law (that i know of) was added, removed, or changed. fireworks werent allowed in hong kong while they were common in china, the one child policy wasn't implemented into hong kong, etc. certain things did, however, change. white people (excuse the language, i'm not chinese either) basically got freaked out and left. there are now way less white people in hong kong. bleh. well it isn't british owned anymore,... a very reliable source has given the information as follows (maybe a /. on this? i can provide info): 50% of the MS software in hong kong is pirated. sound bad? get this. 95% of the MS software in china is pirated. this isnt an estimate. before the handover, 80% of MS software was pirated, and pirated software was most readily publically available in late 1998/early 1999. here are things on a new perspective for you. the population of hong kong is approx 7million. 2 million of these are triads on some level. the night of the handover, triads higher up in the 14k and WSW hierarchy found a perfect opportunity to move to macau, as the handover ceremony involved english police stepping down and chinese police taking over. with china in power, the triads were much worse off--they wouldn't be cut any slack, the govt wouldn't be scared of triads--why exactly i dont know, but apparantly there were plenty of reasons. it would be interesting to compare the development in hong kong and macau. you'd be astounded how much triads can stop a country from developing. hong kong is just about as high tech as i've seen. it would be awkward for a 6th grader not to have a mobile phone with them at school, and even more awkward for a student even in primary school not to have a computer at home with internet access, running MS software. hong kong is very enthiuastic about holding the asian games in 2006, and have launched various strong campaigns. china, on the other hand, is also developing steadily. it is of course more rural, and much less developed than hong kong, but is still developing steadily. the olympics in 2008 will only boost hong kong's tourism, as will the disneyland amusement park being constructed in hong kong right next to their new airport. its hard for two countries right next to each other, from the same colony not to effect each others development, but you're almost comparing the development of nigeria and downtown NYC. well im tired, if you want more, ill write more. okahbah.
  • People, people, you're taking this all too seriously.

  • I don't know if it is related to the article :) but Larry Feign is doing Lily Wong [lilywong.net] comics again.
    __
  • > If we dont succeed we run the risk of failure
    This is a quote from Dan Quayle, actually. *Not* Al Gore. Makes more sense once you know who said it.

  • The aquisition of Hong Kong is transforming China in a way that no amount of Western diplomacy could ever hope to do. The capitalistic "virtues" so acutely instilled in Hong Kong over it's 100 years under the British crown is so addictive and persuasive that we are witness a change in China as a whole. China is becoming more open to traditionally Western ideals and policies. It is readily ramping up it's military-industrial-technological infrastructure and is builing upon Hong Kong as the face of the "new" China. Still, there are many places in China, as in the United States and most Western countries where these changes are not being felt. China is still, by and large, an agrarian state with pockets of industrial and military strength. But, they are a rapidly rising sun and their military and economic build-up is the first harbinger that the American Sun really is setting after nearly a century of dominance.
  • Sadly, I feel that China will be a land of the have and the have nots and the gap between them will be larger than any other country.

    Uhhh, I don't think so.

    Here in SF, I literally trip over have-nots every block. And these are only the visible ones....

    Just look around you: in this country 1% of the population owns 90% of the wealth. The average CEO makes upwards of 30 times the poor slob on the frontline makes.

    The gross disparity between rich and poor is right here, right now, and China's gap may *mirror* that of the US, but it seems statistically improbable that it would be larger than here.

  • You know they've seen the fork? Oh they're well aware that we have the fork.

    This may be apocryphal, but I was taught that the reason that the Chinese don't use knives and forks was that Confucious said that it was not civilised to eat with butcher's tools.

    Anyway, chopsticks are just as useful, once you get practice with them.

  • Typically, Asian people are a lot more self-sacrificing and willing to work for a group

    Quite; indeed, in Western civilizations, people are identified by their personal name, then their family name, whereas in Oriental civilizations, the family name comes first.

  • could you please analyze the economic collapse of the Soviet Union into the Russian Republic? Or perhaps a comparative analysis of the economic development over the past 30 years of communist Cuba (despite American embargo) with the other 'free market' economies of central and south America?
  • that Hong Kong is not actually too much a major factor in playing the transformation. I say this, because Hong Kong izn't fit for technology. Hong Kong can't even handle Technology. I want to quote a case of the stocks of Tom.com, an internet startup here. I didn't have much on their page (even though I know they run RedHat Linux) and it already went on the stock exchange. It is ridiculous. A lot of people were fooled into buying htem, well no not actually since they don't even realy know what the stock is bout and they just think that hte high tech stock can earn money. It skyrocketed to HKD $40 and then dropped rock bottom now. Here, teachers like to use excessive powerpoijnt presentation which I believe is against their wishes but this is called "Technology". Setting up and waiting for Windoze to boot already take 5 minutes ... wasting valuable lesson time. I am a student coordinator in several IT projects at school and I find it frustrating since no one knows what I am talking about. :( I appreciate the praise for Hong Kong, but I want to remind everyone here that they should not be fooled by the fact that HK is a world class city so it must have world class techonlogy. In sincerely hope that China can learn from Hong Kong's mistakes and not implement soemthing without thinking about revolutionizing people's lives by pushing technoology into our daily lives.
  • Why do you single out Canada? HK is far more advanced in terms of cellular technology than the even US for that matter. It's not just Canada. BTW, I don't consider the cellular tech in the States to be any more advanced than it is here in Canada. One other interesting thing is, you can use your cell-phones while travelling underground on their MTR (subway), something I wish we could do here.
  • I actually worked as a busboy in a "chinese" restaurant in high school and I can tell you that chinese people don't eat what we call chinese food. I would always see the owners, the cooks, and their daughters eating something different near closing.

    One day I asked them about the real chinese food they were eating. It was damn good food. They said the only real chinese food they serve is rice, the rest is just made up so american would like it.
  • OK. There's a reason the HK is ahead of the US:

    Until 1997, they were a British colony. And since Britannia wanted, in part, to sour the taste of Chinese rule, they gave HK citizens stuff similar to those of Anglia subjects of the Crown.

    For example, until the changeover there was democratically elected officials. One person, one vote. The Chinese reverted to 'corporate voting' where a group of persons only had one vote. (Correct me if I am wrong.)

    Now, the EU, of which the UK is a non-Euro member, adopted GSM as the Continental Standard for Digital Cellular Service. This made the cell markets of the EU much, much cleaner, as manufacturers only needed to produce one type of phone for the entirety of the EU market. And because your subscriber information in a GSM phone is based off a chipcard, and not the phone itself! (Meaning, if I travel from the EU to New York, LA, or most any other major metro area in the US (except Chicago) with a GSM provider, I just remove my chip, insert into a new phone, and voila! That phone has all my information!

    The really good thing for the EU denizens is G3 will be out in full force within two years.

    Repeat: By 2002, the European continent will be fully G3. ISDN speeds on wireless phones.

    The US is behind because of several reasons:

    1. The FCC, in its infinite wisdom, did not mandate a single, national digital cellular protocol. We have GSM, CDMA, and TDMA. Which means the manufacturers have to brew up three different phone types for the US market. (Also, this is why the wizzer phones are in the EU first: Only one network protocol means everyone can use any phone designed for that protocol.

    2. In the EU, there is 'caller pays.' Simple translation: I call you from a hardline to your cell, I pay the air fees. (This is true no matter where in the world you're calling from, as long as the recipient is a cell user in a nation which has the 'caller pays' philosophy.) This also cheapens the cost of cell use; if you have a phone merely to recieve calls, it costs you nothing (besides the monthly subscriber fees.) That's one reason why cell phone penetration is over 50% in most of the EU, and over 75% in several.

    3. The US has a LARGE number of analog cell users. All that bandwidth in the 800 Mhz range for cell users is mainly for analog cellular phones. In the EU, all cells are digital. Analogs were mandated out. The FCC should take the same stand on analog cell as it did with analog TV: Out in so many years.

    PS: Catching cell signals in the tube isn't that hard to do: All the cellco needs to do is install a few antenna banks at several stations along the line. The catch is the cost-to-use ratio. If people don't use the Metro's cell 'towers,' they are a waste of money.
  • Actually, the PLA is no longer allowed to be in business. In the recent interview with the President (Premier) of China, Mike Wallace addressed this issue.
    So, that may have been the case in the past but it ain't now.
  • Cell phone use in Hong Kong is much greater compared to the United States. Most likely, Hong Kong has one of the greatest percentages of cell phone use in the population.

    Estimates for Taiwan indicate nearly 20 million cell phones in circulation. Not bad for a country with a population that has yet to reach 23 million. This seems to be fairly typical for Asia -- Hong Kong, Taiwan, Japan, Singapore, Beijing, even Bangkok last time I was there -- have taken to cellular technology in a big way.

    I would be cautious in over-generalizing this, however. Taiwan may lead North America in the per-capita cell phone category, but in most other ways we trail the US technologically.

    Lee Kai Wen -- Taiwan, ROC

  • There are at least 6 indigenous Chinese-language Linux distributions and several foreign distros that also have been Chineseified (TurboLinux, XTeam).

    RedHat with Chinese Language Extensions seems to be the most popular here in Taiwan, though other distros use CLE as well. Personally, I run Mandrake 7 with CLE 0.8. And yes, Chinese language support is excellent throughout the OS (with the exception of documentation, which is still largely available only in English).

    Lee Kai Wen -- Taiwan, ROC

  • It's really rare to see that much insight into China on slashdot.


    Thanks for explaining things to everybody else.

    willis/

  • but in mongolia, they don't have last names, so they must be really individual, right?

    I think you're constructing a quirk into something that it isn't.
    it's like logic : F=>T is T. yeah, more group spirit, but the last name thing is not causing it, nor a sign of it.

    willis/
  • ditto, i live in China.... I love the comments on slash about China, especially the one in this topic about a "new" dialect developing about 30yrs ago that allows all chinese to communicate......mandarin
  • Mainland Chinese and Honkees already have raoming GSM chips i.e. cell phone chips that work from Beijing to Singapore. they do not CHANGE chips when they cross the border. HK has 6 million people who mostly DO NOT want to move to mainland China, pop 1.3 billion and growing. Their consumer spending impacts have little to no impact on pricing strategies of any company
  • Clancy's blatant xenophobia even started to piss me off - he has a highly blinkered view of the world.

    Like what?

    Oh, and why on earth did he think that people in Russia discuss prices in Euros?!

    Just look at the exchange rates [yahoo.com].

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