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Games Entertainment

Everquest Server Emulator In Beta 165

Posted by Hemos from the i-hate-/yell dept.
Zummi writes: "The people at HackersQuest have released a beta of their Everquest server emulator. " Verant's reaction should be interesting to watch -- EthernalQuest looks cool, and will hopefully look better than the 1992 graphics of Everquest.
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Everquest Server Emulator in Beta More

Everquest Server Emulator in Beta

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  • I imagine that Verant's reaction would be similar to that of the MPAA's with DeCSS: lawsuit.

    But what if there were free servers? Do you think more people would play, or would they simply want to be where everyone else was playing.?

    --

  • UO has seen many custom servers built for it... in the end, setting up a game server depends largely on how redundant your backend is and how much of a pipe you can afford.
    If UO is any precedent, Verant has nothing to worry about.

  • They will behave like Origin (UO) did... (Score:4)

    by SClitheroe ( 132403 ) on Wednesday August 30, 2000 @08:28AM (#815778) Homepage
    When the Ultima Online server emulators came out, Origin threatened to cancel your subscription with the official service. This was explicitly written into the license agreement for the game. If you check the license agreement for EverQuest, I bet it's the same thing.

    Origin also released several client-side patches which required additional reverse-engineering on the part of the emulator authors. Officially it was encryption to reduce "cheating". When I left the UO scene, it was bad enough that only certain patch levels of the client worked with the emulators, but were too old to work with the offical servers. Again, I'd bet the EQ folks will do something similar.
  • Even though they shouldn't. One day I am going to see a suit on here about a patent that is worthwhile. Or someone actually suing to protect their rights that are worth a damn. But with the patent suits 100 out of 100 I have seen the patent was a waste. I don't even need to mention my feelings on MP3s, DeCSS etc. OH well I sure am glad I'm spending my 40%, or however much, on income tax. At least Im not funding the creation of more lawyers. Oh wait state supported schools. Shit I'm paying taxes so that more lawyers can come out and crush little people like me for the big corporations until I pay their classmates 100s of thousands of dollars to protect me. God this is ridiculous. Oh well what a waste. Sorry
  • But HackersQuest is probably in for a major lawsuit. It's one thing to make a mod for Diablo II, which won't work on the Realms servers, but it's another thing entirely to make your own server for someone else's game like this.

    And yes, before it gets brought up, it's because Everquest is a pay-to-play game. If it was a free multi-player game (as in no cost to play multi-player) then the point would be moot. But the whole point of Everquest is to play online, and give X dollars a month to Sony.

    Sorry to say it, but they are cruising for a lawsuit....

    Kierthos

  • 1992? (Score:1)

    by NNKK ( 218503 )
    you're being extremely unfair... the graphics are a lot better than Quake (which was released in 96) and at least on par with Quake2's graphics... of course since you've OBVIOUSLY played the game and thus can make a fair comment about it, you must already know this
  • Is this under Your Rights Online instead of Games? We've seen plenty of emulators get sued, but plenty of emulators go on with no interference. If no use of copyrighted or NDAed [sp] materials were involved, then there's not much of a case...

    Before they started sucking ass, FSGS used to be the premiere alternative Battle.net. They still are because they never released their source code and drove all the other bnet servers into oblivion. They'll have Diablo II support 'soon.' Blizzard initially sued people making stuff outta starcraft (anyone remember the starhack flap?) but eventually stopped. (actually it was the spa representing someone or other, i forget)

    The big question is (i'm on a sloooooooooow ass modem): is it open source? If so, Verant's gonna have a field day taking down EVERYone who's working on it.
    --
    Peace,
    Lord Omlette
    ICQ# 77863057
  • They're trying to emulate Everquest, not improve upon it. It will look the same, but you will be able to do fun stuff like park 5 dragons outside the gates of Qeynos.

    You'd have to Ask Milo how to improve upon the graphics.

    ...steve

  • I've been playing EQ since April... (Score:5)

    by Dirtside ( 91468 ) on Wednesday August 30, 2000 @08:33AM (#815784) Journal
    ...and I fairly closely follow Verant's various actions as evidenced by what's on their boards. I don't think Verant is going to panic over this; they've known about it for a long time and probably will ignore it. For one thing, even if people do start playing on "public" servers, it's going to be a totally different experience from actually playing EQ on Verant's servers. Not much, if any, of the content is going to be there; basically it's a way of emulating the EQ engine. People will be able to run their own servers, sure, but without major hardware they aren't going to be able to support many players at once.

    There's probably a lot more to be said about this, but I don't think Verant is going to freak out. There's not much they can do, and I don't think it's going to really affect their business anyway.

  • I think I'd look into getting a copy if there were populated, free servers. I remember looking at EQ and thinking "hey, that looks like it could be pretty fun. No way I'm going to pay to play though."

    How many times do they want us to buy their products? I can understand that they probably keep their systems working a lot smoother than battle.net, but still, when I buy a game, I want it to be mine.
  • I haven't read it in awhile... I'm sure it will change to disallow using the client with non-sanctioned servers.
  • If the game was static pay for play would really suck. But the game has new content added to the world on a regular basis. Not to mention special events, live GM run quests and the like that all require real live people to run. The amount of money per month to play EQ is less than I pay for lunch. And even though I rarely play these days I still think I'm getting my money's worth.
  • I wonder if the US will start making emulators iilegal to even have. You can not import from another country let hope this does not happen.

  • EULA (Score:5)

    by barogers@iserv.net ( 11860 ) on Wednesday August 30, 2000 @08:40AM (#815789)
    As of today, after the latest patch...


    Please remember to review the current terms and conditions of the User Agreement and Software License. Thank you.


    USER AGREEMENT AND SOFTWARE LICENSE

    THIS AGREEMENT DESCRIBES THE TERMS ON WHICH SONY COMPUTER ENTERTAINMENT AMERICA INC. OFFERS YOU ACCESS TO AN ACCOUNT (THE "ACCOUNT") TO PLAY THE EVERQUEST ONLINE FANTASY ROLE PLAYING COMPUTER GAME (THE "GAME"). BY PRESSING THE "I ACCEPT" BUTTON, YOU ACCEPT THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS BELOW. BY PRESSING THE "DECLINE" BUTTON, YOU DECLINE OUR OFFER, IN WHICH CASE YOU SHOULD CONTACT YOUR RETAILER REGARDING ITS RETURN POLICY FOR THE EVERQUEST CD-ROM. If you have any questions regarding these terms and conditions, please contact customer service at eqmail@verant.com.

    1. Accounts are available only to adults or, in their discretion, their minor child. If you are a minor, your parent(s) or guardian(s) must complete the registration process, in which case they will take full responsibility for all obligations under this Agreement. By clicking the "I Accept" button and providing us with a credit card number, you represent that you are an adult and are either accepting this Agreement on behalf of yourself or your child. You may not transfer or share your Account with anyone, except that if you are a parent or guardian, you may permit one child to use the Account instead of you (in which case you may not use that Account). You are liable for all activities conducted through the Account, and parents or guardians are liable for the activities of their child. Corporations and other entities are not eligible to procure Accounts.

    2. To play the Game, you must (a) purchase the EverQuest game CD-ROM (the "CD-ROM"), which includes software required for the Game (the "Software"), (b) have a fully paid Account, and (c) have an Internet connection (which we do not provide) to access your Account. In addition to any fees described herein, you are responsible for paying all applicable taxes (including those we are not required to collect) and for all hardware, software, service and other costs you incur to access your Account. Neither this Agreement nor your Account entitles you to any subsequent releases of the Software, nor to any expansion packs or similar ancillary products. You understand that we may update or otherwise enhance the Software at any time and in doing so incur no obligation to furnish such updates to you pursuant to this Agreement.

    3. We may amend this Agreement at any time in our sole discretion. Amendments shall be communicated to you at the time you log into your Account. Such amendments shall be effective whenever we make the notification available for your review.

    4. Upon registration, you must select a password. You may not disclose your password to any third party. We never ask you for your password by telephone or email, and you should not disclose it this way if someone asks you to do so. There may be an additional charge to reissue lost passwords. Although we may offer a feature that allows you to "save" or "remember" your password on your hard drive, please note that third parties may be able to access your computer and thus your Account.

    5. We describe our fees and billing procedures at www.everquest.com, which are incorporated by reference. All fees are stated in U.S. Dollars. All fees are prepaid and non-refundable. Upon your acceptance of these terms, we will automatically charge your credit card the Account fee plus any applicable taxes we are required to collect, and you authorize us to do so. Thereafter, on the applicable anniversary, we will charge your credit card the then-current renewal rate plus any applicable taxes we are required to collect, and you authorize us to do so. If we are unable to process your credit card at a renewal period, your Account may be immediately terminated.

    6. We may terminate this Agreement (including your Software license and your Account) immediately and without notice if you breach this Agreement or repeatedly infringe any third party intellectual property rights, or if we are unable to verify or authenticate any information you provide to us, or upon gameplay, chat or any player activity whatsoever which is, in our sole discretion, inappropriate and/or in violation of the spirit of the Game as set forth in the player rules of conduct, which are posted at www.everquest.com. If we terminate this Agreement under these circumstances, you will lose access to your Account for the balance of any prepaid period without any refund. We may also terminate this Agreement if we decide, in our sole discretion, to discontinue offering the Game, in which case we may provide you with a prorated refund of any prepaid amounts.

    7. Subject to the terms of this Agreement, we hereby grant to you a non-exclusive license to use the Software solely in connection with playing the Game via an authorized and fully-paid Account. You may not copy (except to make one necessary back-up copy), distribute, rent, lease, loan, modify or create derivative works, adapt, translate, perform, display, sublicense or transfer the Software. You may not copy any of the written materials accompanying the CD-ROM. You may not reverse engineer, disassemble or decompile the Software except to the extent that this restriction is expressly prohibited by applicable law. The Software may contain license management software that restricts your use of the Software.

    8. We and our suppliers shall retain ownership of all intellectual property rights relating to or residing in the CD-ROM, the Software and the Game. The Software is a "commercial item.

    9. You may not use any third party software to modify the Software to change Game play. You may not use our intellectual property rights contained in the Game or the Software to create or provide any other means through which the Game may be played by others, as through server emulators. You may not take any action which imposes an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on our infrastructure. You may not sell or auction any EverQuest characters, items, coin or copyrighted material.

    10. To obtain an Account, you will be required to choose both a login name and a player name. While you are encouraged to use a pseudonym, especially if you are a minor, you may not pick a name that violates anyone's trademarks, publicity rights or other proprietary rights.

    11. As part of your Account, you can upload content to our servers in various forms, such as in the selections you make for the Game and in chat rooms and similar user-to-user areas (collectively, your "Content"). Your Content shall not: (a) infringe any third party intellectual property, other proprietary or publicity/privacy rights; (b) violate any law or regulation; (c) be defamatory, obscene, child pornographic or harmful to minors; or (d) contain any viruses, trojan horses, worms, time bombs, cancelbots or other computer programming routines that are intended to damage, detrimentally interfere with, surreptitiously intercept or expropriate any system, data or personal information. We may take any action with respect to your Content if we believe it may create liability for us or may cause us to lose (in whole or in part) the services of our ISPs or other suppliers. You hereby grant to us a worldwide, perpetual, irrevocable, royalty-free, sublicenseable (through multiple tiers) right to exercise all intellectual property rights, in any media now known or not currently known, associated with your Content.

    12. We cannot ensure that your private communications and other personally identifiable information will not be disclosed to third parties. For example, we may be forced to disclose information to the government or third parties under certain circumstances, or third parties may unlawfully intercept or access transmissions or private communications. Additionally, we can (and you authorize us to) disclose any information about you to private entities, law enforcement or other government officials as we, in our sole discretion, believe necessary or appropriate to investigate or resolve possible problems or inquiries. Furthermore, if you request any technical support, you consent to our remote accessing and review of the computer you load the Software onto for purposes of support and debugging. You agree that we may communicate with you via email and any similar technology for any purpose relating to the Game, the Software and any services or software which may in the future be provided by us or on our behalf. You may choose to visit www.station.sony.com, the web site of Sony Online Entertainment Inc. ("The Station") if The Station offers services such as an EverQuest game themed chat room or other services of interest to you. You are subject to the terms and conditions, privacy customs and policies of Sony Online Entertainment Inc. while on The Station. Since we do not control the terms and conditions of use of The Station or of other web sites and/or privacy policies of third parties, different rules may apply to their use or disclosure of the personal information you disclose to others. Solely for the purpose of patching and updating the Game, you hereby grant us permission to (i) upload Game file information from the Everquest directory and (ii) download Game files to you.

    13. WE PROVIDE THE CD-ROM, THE SOFTWARE, THE ACCOUNT, THE GAME AND ALL OTHER SERVICES "AS IS." WE AND OUR SUPPLIERS EXPRESSLY DISCLAIM ALL WARRANTIES OR CONDITIONS OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS, IMPLIED OR STATUTORY, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF TITLE, NONINFRINGEMENT, MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. Without limiting the foregoing, we do not ensure continuous, error-free, secure or virus-free operation of the CD-ROM, the Software, the Game or your Account. Some states do not allow the disclaimer of implied warranties, so the foregoing disclaimer may not apply to you. This warranty gives you specific legal rights and you may also have other legal rights which vary from state to state.

    We are not liable for any delay or failure to perform resulting from any causes beyond our reasonable control. Further, we cannot and do not promise or ensure that you will be able to access your Account whenever you want, and there may be extended periods of time when you cannot access your Account.

    14. IN NO EVENT SHALL WE, OUR PARENT, OUR AFFILIATES OR OUR SUPPLIERS BE LIABLE TO YOU OR TO ANY THIRD PARTY FOR ANY LOST PROFITS OR SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (HOWEVER ARISING, INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE) ARISING OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH YOUR ACCOUNT, THE GAME, THE CD-ROM OR THIS AGREEMENT. OUR LIABILITY TO YOU OR ANY THIRD PARTIES IS LIMITED TO $100. Some states do not allow the foregoing limitations of liability, so they may not apply to you.

    15. You shall comply with all applicable laws regarding your use of the Software, your access to your Account and your playing of the Game. Without limiting the foregoing, you may not download, use or otherwise export or re-export the Software except in full compliance with all applicable laws and regulations.

    16. This Agreement is governed in all respects by the laws of the State of California as such laws are applied to agreements entered into and to be performed entirely within California between California residents. The UN Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods is expressly disclaimed. Both parties submit to personal jurisdiction in California and further agree that any cause of action relating to this Agreement shall be brought in a court in San Mateo County, California. If any provision of this Agreement is held to be invalid or unenforceable, such provision shall be struck and the remaining provisions shall be enforced. Our failure to act with respect to a breach by you or others does not waive our right to act with respect to subsequent or similar breaches. You may not assign or transfer this Agreement or your rights hereunder, and any attempt to the contrary is void. This Agreement sets forth the entire understanding and agreement between us and you with respect to the subject matter hereof. Except as provided above, this Agreement may not be amended except in a writing signed by both parties.

    17. All services hereunder are offered by Sony Computer Entertainment America Inc., located at 919 E. Hillsdale Boulevard, Foster City, California 94404. Our phone number is (858) 537-0898. Current rates for using the Game may be obtained from www.everquest.com, and such rates are subject to change at any time. If you are a California resident, you may have this same information emailed to you by sending a letter to the foregoing address with your email address and a request for this information.

    The Complaint Assistance Unit of the Division of Consumer Services of the Department of Consumer Affairs may be contacted in writing at 400 R Street, Sacramento, CA 95814, or by telephone at (800) 952-5210.

    Parental control protections (such as computer hardware, software, or filtering services) are commercially available that may assist you in limiting access to material that is harmful to minors. If you are interested in learning about these protections, information is available at http://www.worldvillage.com/wv/school/html/control .htm or other similar sites providing information on such protections.
  • Why are you all being so negative about what Verant is going to do? Everone just assumes that they will sue the authors of this software! What if they don't and instead spend the money they would have spent on lawyers improving their protocol & game so that it is worth paying for, as opposed to using the presumably free service.

    I agree that recently corporations have been quick to sue, but until they sue, I don't think that we should become negative about a company. Let's give them a chance to react first!

    Dan
  • Sure, you get new and exciting content (and someone has to pay for the upkeep of the servers and personel to run them,) but how do you feel about paying $40 for the game and an additional $120 for a year's subscription.

    Granted, a lot of people will pay much more than $160/year on entertainment (movies, books, cds, etc), but don't you think the original game should be free?

    --

  • Well Verant and EQ are under the vast umbrella of Sony, and they're not involved in lawsuits invoking other emulators [connectix.com] or the DMCA [slashdot.org], are they?

    IMHO, this is going to get litigated hard and fast. How effective that will be remains to be seen. Verant has been unwilling or unable to go after other indiviudals, such as the E-Bay Farmers, or Uber You planes-raid people. (for those not in the know, Uber you is a bunch of players who are charging people for the privledge of going on a raid to the one of the various Planes in EQ. There's a little more to it than that, natch, but not much.) Of course, the E-Bay practices haven't actually threatened Verant's cash-flow.

    Now, on a related note, I'd love to see this go to court. Verant has admitted that many of their coders were avid MUDers from back in the day, and a lot of the inspiration for EQ came from one particular MUD Brad used to play (sorry, can't remember the name). Most of the MUD's fall under various froms of an "open License", and EQ itself has a lot of throwbacks to those text-based MUDs. More so than UO or AC appear to have, for instance. I'd be very interested to see the source for some of the code from EQ, and from whence it sprang.

    Just a thought...

  • Maybe it's just my browser (and who knows, i'm using IE at work), but this article comes up under "Your Rights Online".

    EthernalQuest is trying to censor me! Help, help, I'm being repressed!

  • Well, it's not very similar to the MPAA case in at least one respect: the emulators don't facilitate "stealing" of copyrighted data.

  • Re:Free servers? (Score:4)

    by Xerophorex ( 218295 ) on Wednesday August 30, 2000 @08:46AM (#815795)
    i pay over $100/month for lunch. i would never pay that much for entertainment!
  • "Ok, let me get this straight. I buy this game for $40, install it, and then I have to pay an additional thirty bucks a month so I can play it? No thank you..."

    I really don't think that in this era of so called "informational freedom" we should have to pay a monthly fee to play some goofy game online when we are already shelling out $20-$60 (depending on what ISP) for internet access. I mean come on, we already bought the damn game, just let us play it! Screw Everquest, if I want to play a game online, I'll give my money to Blizzard (i.e. Diablo 2). But I do applaud the efforts of these individuals to try to emulate an EQ server.
  • You ever been to the official EQ boards recently?

    "Your Rights Online" couldn't be a more correct titling for it.

    Basicly what I'm expecting is for Verant to try to squeeze the emulation software out either by court or by technical (changing the formats of all the files etc). Either way it is in a way it censoring.
  • Are you stupid?
    When EQ came out it looked better than any other FPRPG (First Person RPG) out there, and rivaled many of the FPS. Christ, did you play Daggerfall?
  • $10 a month actually.

    Use the movie ratio to justify it. $7 for 2hours at the movie or $10 for unlimited hours for a month on Everquest. Your average EQ player spends 23 hours a week playing, so for most it's a good value.
  • The MUD that Brad used to play on was called "Sojourn" AKA "Toril"

    Although you seem to be implying that EQ used MUD source. Are you serious? Mud's where you move from 1 room to the next by pressing a direction key compared to a full 3d game where you move around the zone (level) you are in with freedom?

    That's a pretty big stretch.
  • You seem to be under the impression that the game is a pay-per-play from Sony. It's not. Sony wrote a game and is selling it. A different company (Veriant) has an exclusive deal with Sony to host EQ servers.

    The monthly fees are for Variant's service, not Sony's software. If I sit at home and build a custom server (either a reverse-engineering job or a new game server from scratch) that lets me run the EQ client on it, I am not stealing anything. Ditto if I invite my friends over to play their EQ clients on my custom-built server. Ditto again if I put let people log on to it over the Internet for free.

    If I charge for the service, then I might be in conflict with the agreement between Variant and Sony, but that is mostly their problem... I still am doing nothing illegal.

  • One thing a lot of you may not realize is that Hackersquest [hackersquest.gomp.ch] is in China. This makes litigation a lot more of a problem, I wonder if Verant could even get the logs from the ISP to see who is actually doing this.
  • Anyone with access to changing a web site, get this thing onto it.
    I just changed my company's web site (with authorization of the president of the company) to be the DeCSS source code.

    http://www.superiorlabs.com

    If the MPAA needs help finding us, there is a link to e-mail us on the site.
    If enough sites do this, the absurdity will be shown, and the point will be made!

    TAG - This time, you really are IT!
  • No...just stealing a service by running free servers. This would, ultimately, lead to less people paying for the service provided by Verant.

    --
  • The EULA specifically permits using the CD software "solely in connection with playing the Game via an authorized and fully-paid Account." So, if you're using the CD to play on the emulator, you're in violation of clause 7 of the EULA.

    And, HackerQuest is in violation of clause 9, which specifically states:
    "You may not use our intellectual property rights contained in the Game or the Software to create or provide any other means through which the Game may be played by others, as through server emulators."

    Thus, if HackerQuest used any of the original code (copyrighted), or any of the characters or names (trademarked) owned by Sony, they can be sued under this license, and are likely to be found in violation. Of course, they could also be in violation of the copyright, and I expect Sony registered the copyright. In that case, HackerQuest could be in the hole for $150,000 statutory damages for each instance of copying code. (See 17 USC Section 504, http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/504.html, and note that the statutory damages have been increased recently http://www.pma-online.org/newsletr/apr9-00.html).

    On the other hand, EverQuest hasn't been enforcing this license. For example, the license also says "You may not sell or auction any EverQuest characters, items, coin or copyrighted material." Of course, if you go to Ebay you'll find tons of EverQuest stuff for sale.
  • Free ISP's result in less people paying for service provided by AOL. So?

  • Lawsuit? Under which laws? (Score:3)

    by Nicolas MONNET ( 4727 ) <nicoaltiva@gmai l . c om> on Wednesday August 30, 2000 @09:11AM (#815807) Journal

    I might be wrong, but it seems that the HackersQuest guys are actually european. If that's the case, good luck suing them ... since you should know that the European Union explicitly allows reverse engineering for interoperability purposes ... which is precisely what this emulator is about. And not only do they allow it, but they also are very likely to sue a company who would try to prevent it for anticompetitive behavior.

    It's also interesting to notice that to play Everquest, you have to buy the package AND pay a monthly fee ... this might fall under forced bundling rules if they don't allow people to buy the product without paying the subscription....

  • Sony did'nt make the game. Verant made the game, and got bought by Sony.
  • Id like to see the EQ your playing. Q2s graphics are far superior.
  • Having played many games online, and made the choice between pay servers, and free servers, I prefer to pay $10/month. The most important thing this buys me is moderation. There are real people running the game that will give the boot to the 12 year old that spams the place non-stop. It may not get rid of every imbecile, but it does go a long way.

  • You're paying the monthly fee for the organized multiplayer aspects of the game. There are a few online simulations that charge hourly or monthly fees even though the GAME itself is a free download.

    I'll gladly take real human opponents/allies over AI even if it means that I have to pay a subscription fee for access to the servers. AI killing got old several years ago, and most "multiplayer" games only offer up to 8 or so simultaneous players at one time. The pay to play multiplayer services offer (in some cases) over 200 people in one arena at any given time. The gameplay complexity goes waaaaay up when you get past about 30 players.

    Informational freedom has nothing to do with it... The fee is (IMO) a reasonable charge for using the servers that make these "massively multiplayer" games possible. If you don't want to pay, you can always play some single player game by yourself. Also realize that the subscription fees generally pay for R&D towards the next game or version, benefitting the player in the future.
  • No...just stealing a service by running free servers. This would, ultimately, lead to less people paying for the service provided by Verant.

    They aren't really stealing a service... It's just like the Bleem! case... Some people managed to figure out how Everquest's network works, and made their own version. As long as they didn't use any of Verant's code, then they haven't stolen anything. I doubt they could get into much trouble, unless their server is using Verant code to run. You could say Bleem! is stealing from Sony, too... But the courts (so far) feel otherwise.

    Josh Sisk

  • Re:Lawsuit? Under which laws? (Score:3)

    by Golias ( 176380 ) on Wednesday August 30, 2000 @09:18AM (#815813)
    It's also interesting to notice that to play Everquest, you have to buy the package AND pay a monthly fee ... this might fall under forced bundling rules if they don't allow people to buy the product without paying the subscription....

    When I bought my Qualcomm phone, I did not get a free subscription to Sprint's digital network.

    Same principle applies here. The software client is a product (from Sony), the Variant subscription is a service that lets you use that product.

    (By the way, if the FCC allowed a bunch of Linux hippies to host a free phone network that worked with my Qualcomm phone, Sprint could not sue them and Qualcomm would not want to.)

  • Ok 10 bucks a month, I stand corrected. But, my point still stands. I don't think I should have to buy a game and then pay a monthly fee just to play the damn thing. How about give us the game free and then charge a monthly fee. Then I might consider it.

  • It might be better... (Score:3)

    by molog ( 110171 ) on Wednesday August 30, 2000 @09:19AM (#815815) Homepage Journal
    I say this because Verant doesn't know anything about game balance. Pretty much everyone who plays EQ knows that a necromancer can wipe out a party of adventurers their own level, and can solo dragons. Other classes aren't really good at anything. For example wizards, who are supposed to be the masters of directed damage, consistently miss all the time, ok an exaggeration, with their spells.

    Also because people were leveling too fast Verant made a stupid decision to put hell levels in, basically they are levels that take 2x the xp to get to the next level as the game would normally have you do when the better solution would have been to have the experience curve increase over all the levels instead of just 30, 35, 40, 45, etc.

    There are problems and other bugs, like enemies attacking you through a stonewall, that Verant doesn't admit is a bug. Maybe if some REAL role-players ran things there would be more fun then sitting and waiting for an enemy to spawn so you can get one step closer to maxing your level which is all there is to do besides chatting with people. Really, chatting and killing the infrequent enemy is all it is. So it might not be the same experiance but I feel it couldn't be too much worse.
    Molog

    So Linus, what are we doing tonight?

  • I'm talking about European law, btw.

  • They don't have the reasons to behave like Origin did.

    UO's full selling feature is the community. "Come join our vast community of gamers!" The resource system is boring, the monster AI is abysmal, the training system leaves a lot to be desired. UO is all about the community - interacting, in one form or another, with other players.

    You can get community in an Emulated UO just as easily as you can in the Official UO.

    But Verant has some useful and interesting code on the server side. There are things in EQ that are actually worth interacting with. The terrain is reasonably immersive. The monsters arn't as dumb as rocks. The EQ server contributes a bit more to your play experience, as compared to the UO server, which just passes the Corp Por of the pk from his machine to yours.

  • Illegal (Score:4)

    by Fervent ( 178271 ) on Wednesday August 30, 2000 @09:24AM (#815819)
    They're going to get blown out of the water. Everquest is a fully-copyrighted world where the majority of user data exists on the servers. What are they going to do, mirror a copyrighted hard drive? Even in emulation you're overstepping the boundaries of what's allowed (most emulation projects only get off the ground if the product hasn't been out for years and is no longer profitable, like MAME).

    Besides, they're underhanding Sony and Verant's entire profit system. (Also, note to poster, the graphics in EQ have nothing to do with the server. They're rendered entirely in the client, with only very vague instructions to general placement of things. An emulated server won't improve graphics.)

  • Re:Graphics will stay the same (Score:3)

    by bighead_wong ( 90863 ) on Wednesday August 30, 2000 @09:25AM (#815820)

    They're trying to emulate Everquest . . . It will look the same

    (correct, afaik).

    They wrote an eq server, which should have nothing to do with the quality of the graphics. If the servers did, it would clog up the bandwidth. The way this probably works (and all the UO servers did) was read the old files. All it is is a server, not a completely repackaged client as well.

    although, fwiw . . . if you want to improve the graphics, crack their format (I don't have eq, but am assuming that it isn't just a straightforward known standard?) and change them. As long as you don't don't change it too dramatically, I'm guessing it would still work . . .

    --

  • Re:I've been playing EQ since April... (Score:3)

    by Golias ( 176380 ) on Wednesday August 30, 2000 @09:27AM (#815821)
    Variant's server farm hosts a couple thousand players on each machine, so you are right that it would be difficult for a home brew job to handle the traffic of just one of the official EQ servers... But what might come about is something closer to the old MUD culture... hundreds or even thousands of mini-EQ servers sprining up to support, oh, say 100 players at a time.

    For a hard-core EQ player (as I once was), the idea of having a private server, just for your own guild, is quite appealing.

    Also, server owners will be able to express some creativity of their own, possibly building new worlds that are every bit as intersting as the standard one, if not more so.

    This could be the one thing that gets me to start playing EQ again. I would totally get into the chance to play on a server that isn't busting at the seams, jam-packed with players all competing for the same spawning points. Some of the most fun times I had playing EQ was during off-peak hours, when I could go to a less popular zone and find only two or three other players there.

  • Copy protected? I'm using a copy of the cd as my primary cd so I don't have to worry about hosing it when carrying it around with me ...
  • You'd still be violating the license, and you'd still be hurting Sony because you'd be undermining a deal they would have been paid for.

    --------
  • Its Verant...not veriant or variant and they did write they game...Verant has been bought by Sony.
  • Face it, Everquests graphics were pretty bad. The game was fun but the graphics sucked. Asherons call had better graphics but was not as much fun to play.
  • actually .ch is switzerland, but europe has its own laws protecting folk who reverse-engineer under the auspices of interoperablity.
  • I agree that recently corporations have been quick to sue, but until they sue, I don't think that we should become negative about a company. Let's give them a chance to react first!

    Umm, I don't want to sound too facist or anything but wouldn't Verant suing be quite an understandable reaction? I mean, if (eg) Steven Spielberg made a movie set in the Star Wars universe, wouldn't George Lucas be within his rights to sue?

    What if they don't and instead spend the money they would have spent on lawyers improving their protocol & game so that it is worth paying for, as opposed to using the presumably free service

    Why should they have to compete with someone who's standing on their shoulders?

  • Yep. That's just one of the many freedoms that we have in the US. I can set up a shop that sells the same thing you're selling for less right next door and drive you out of business (as long as I can keep myself in business.)

    Necessity if the mother of invention: and thus we have the DeCSS source and free EverQuest servers...

    --

  • > Hackersquest is in China

    I'm not quite sure where you got your info but the TLD "ch" stands for Switzerland.
    China's TLD is "cn".

    You might want to check out
    ftp://ftp.ripe.net/iso3166-countrycodes .txt [ripe.net]

    RedShirt
    --

  • Won't matter at all... (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    If you play on the emulator you will notice they are a loonng way from actually making it playable. Right now you can only be one race/class out of a few dozen possibilites. There is no npcs (computer control good guys) or even anything to fight. If it was fully opertaional there isn't much point in playing on a server with even a few dozen people (which the server probably won't be able to handle anyway). There's a reason why EQ is $10.00 (many actually) and a large portion of that goes to the backend, computers, high speed lines, etc. How could this emulator be good then? How about using it with a kick ass mod. Imagine turning EQ into Springfield and being your favortie Simpsons characters, etc. :) I don't think the emu will really be for the people, but rather its a challenge for the developers. Lastly the graphics in EQ are supperior to any game of its class at the moment and the game has been out for over a year and I'm still impressed with em. Apparently whomever wrote the initial post to Slashdot has never played EQ (which is supperior in graphics to Asheron's Call which even came out after EQ).
  • this has been part of the eula for at least three months

    since hq started the emu if i recall
    .oO0Oo.
  • Did you pay for the skins and mods? Would you play Quake3 if you had to pay for it each time you logged on to a server?

    Just stimulating conversation -- I wouldn't still be playing Tribes if I had to pay for it.

    --

  • Those individual Tribes servers don't require a few million in hardware, connectivity, coders, and customer service reps every month either.

    Primalchrome

  • Uber You is a prank. Just a prank. Really. Looks like YHBT. HAND!
  • I think everyone can see the parallel here:

    1. Slashdot used to be like that cool radio station. (yup.)

    2. They got bought by a big multi-website media company. (andover.net)
    3. They've gotten lame. (rampant linux gnomes bashing every pro-Microsoft post/story)
    4. Now, they're giving away a car. (that fugly P/T cruiser)
    Besides that, the car is fscking fugly. I mean REAL fugly. I mean oh-my-lord-aren't-you-embarrassed-to-be-seen-in-th at-thing fugly. I agree. If it was the Prowler, maybe I'd be interested, but not this attempt to revive Dick Tracy again.
  • I suppose you are right -- it isn't necesarily stealing, but it's definately subverting the system.

    For example, here in the city, at all of the parking meters, you get the first 10 minutes free by turning the dial. Now, if everyone walking down the street were to turn the dials on the parking meters, then no one would have to pay for parking and the city wouldn't make any money, right?

    It's called civil disobedience and it lands a lot of people in jail. One woman was arrested for 'interfering' with police when she was caught pumping money into the meters as the cops were making their way down the street writing tickets.

    That's the way I see this, Napster, DeCSS and all of the others -- civil disobedience that someone will eventually find a way to punish you for.

    --

  • You can buy EverQuest in the store and you get a one-month free trial before you have to pay a subscription to keep playing. I don't think that's illegal. If so, please cite the particular law that makes it so, and describe why Verant's actions fall under it.
  • Yep -- In the end, someone has to foot the bill. Be it the customer buying the software or the high-speed link, or the company running the servers.

    I still hold, though, that the software should be free if the service is going to cost so much monthly.

    --

  • Well I was an UO player for long, and yes you are right, the experience of playing on a public shard is much different than that of playing on the company's server. But for my part I had my best UO experiences on smaller shards that are not over crowded, where you still have a chance to make yourself a name and where you know most of the important characters after a couple of weeks. Also small public shard are often "owned" by people modifying the setting where the game takes place, in UO an admin could even customize a lot of things, create new character classes with their own limitations with a scripting language. So I think that those looking for a better roleplaying experience and an home away from overcrowded worlds will quickly flee the official EQ's server and move to smaller, free public servers.

  • Re:Illegal (Score:3)

    by Alternity ( 16492 ) on Wednesday August 30, 2000 @10:00AM (#815840)
    Sphere (formerly called TUS formerly called greyworld), Ultima Online Experiment (UOEX) and a bunch of others have done a great job of surviving until now, I don't see why Everquests emulators would not bee able to.

  • Intellectual Property... (Score:3)

    by Patoski ( 121455 ) on Wednesday August 30, 2000 @10:05AM (#815841) Homepage Journal

    First of all I'd like to qualify these comments with the statement that I'm part of the WorldForge [worldforge.org] community so my opinions are probably worth what you paid for them...

    In concept something like this is a wonderful thing however reading the FAQ fills me with trepidation. Let me elaborate...

    In order to run the emulator you have to own the game so the emulator can rip all the artwork and music out of the game. I'm sorry but this is just plain illegal and unethical. The /. crowd runs around foaming at the mouth for any perceived, slight derivation from the GPL but not a whimper about anyone else's property rights. This is just plain ridiculous. You cannot use someone else's artwork, music what have you without the author's consent. The developers claim that the emulator is legal because "it's 100% reverse engineered" is just plain wrong minded and and illegal really. If they used their own music, artwork I would be cheering them on and even looking into cooperation between our two projects but this just is just disturbing..

    How do you expect anyone to respect the (rights of the) GPL or the FSF when you trample on everyone else's rights?

    -Jason

  • Everquest graphics/Paying (Score:3)

    by Tenareth ( 17013 ) on Wednesday August 30, 2000 @10:09AM (#815842) Homepage
    Yes, Everquest graphics are a bit behind, but this is Massive Multiplayer game, they perhaps don't want to limit themselves to a small group? Kunark uses higher end graphics, guess what, most people still play on the original Island becuase, since it uses older style graphics, it runs much faster on lower end machines.

    EverQuest is fun. It isn't the best graphics, but it has a lot of people, it's good graphics, and it runs smooth on a 24000 baud connection. (I have 2 machines running EQ behind 48000 baud connections with no lag). Most people don't realize why certain games takeoff, I think people are angry that EQ is popular even though, in their very tiny minds, it has everything wrong with it. Dated graphics, per month charges, etc.

    It's FUN, and Verant constantly adjusts play balance. It's as simple as that. EQ is a graphical LPMud, and to that end, they are still #1, and untouched.

    To do a game like EQ, you can't do the best graphics, because you are going to cut out a chunk of society that doesn't have the latest wiz-bang hardware, and for a TRUE massive multiplayer game (not Unreal/Doom style Multiplayer) the more people you get, with a wider range of personalities, the better.

    I don't play EQ just for the graphics, I play because there are constantly people from all over the world that I have actually gotten to know over time, just like the original MUD/MUSH/MUCK servers.

    When I have a problem with the game, I have a GM assist me, or I can work with them on bugs. I have to pay per-month, but I also haven't purchased another $50 game in the past 15 months. I used to buy a game every two weeks, beat it, buy another. EQ has many levels of fun, and I doubt it's going anywhere soon. To get a server up and running, and keep it running costs money. If you spend 6 months building a character, I would find it a bit annoying to find that Oh, sorry, I didn't feel like supporting this server anymore, so I disconnected it, good luck, which is bound to happen with free servers. This is a persistent world, not a short one. It's not the same as Doom/Unreal, etc. Look at MUD/MUSH/MUCKs, and how many come and go.


    -- Keith Moore
  • Wrong, wrong, wrong.

    Necromancers can't solo dragons or anything close. Necros used to take advantage of certain areas where they could charm an undead to do their fighting while they feigned death. This has been fixed. Necros still are powerful, but not anything like you stated.

    Verant didn't choose to put in Hell Levels. Some of the parameters in the Exp-needed formula get changed every five levels to require more experience at higher levels. As a side effect, this caused a big jump in the needed experience for the hell levels. Yes, it should have been a continuous curve, but the hell levels were not done on purpose.

    Enemies attacking through a stonewall is not a bug. This is a design choice made by Verant. Early in the beta, monsters couldn't attack thru walls, but players were exploiting this by shooting thru windows and such. Instead of designing a proper pathing alog, Verant just let the monsters walk thru walls.

    A bug is when a program doesn't work as it intended to work. The designers/programmers have explicitly chosen to allow monsters to walk thru walls. Call it a bad design choice, but not a bug.

  • Re:Illegal (Score:5)

    by Robert Link ( 42853 ) on Wednesday August 30, 2000 @10:22AM (#815844) Homepage
    This is kind of a bizarre point of view. Let me see if I've got this straight. I sell you a piece of software which you can then use to connect to my server (for which I charge you a fee) and do some stuff. Then, someone else comes along and writes (using entirely his own code) a work-alike server and says, "Hey, you could use your program with our server instead; we think it's better than the original anyway." Now, how can this be a copyright infringement when in fact nobody has copied anything? Or, to put it another way, how can Verant claim a copyright on code they never wrote, or on data of someone else's devising?


    You also say:


    Even in emulation you're overstepping the boundaries of what's allowed (most emulation projects only get off the ground if the product hasn't been out for years and is no longer profitable, like MAME).

    This seems like a dubious statement as well. As I understand it the legal issues surrounding emulators stem not from distributing the emulators per se, but from distributing the ROMs that go with them. The ROMs are definitely copyrighted, and making copies of them is definitely an infringement. The emulator is just a piece of software, and its copyright belongs to whomever wrote it, not to whomever wrote the thing that it is emulating. In fact, MAME is an interesting analogy because, as I understand it, it is perfectly legal to use MAME with a video game ROM that you have acquired legitimately. In other words, the owner of the copyright on the ROM cannot force you to run the programs contained therein only on hardware of their choosing; you are allowed to run it anyplace you can get it to run. Why should contemporary software be any different in that respect?


    Oh, wait, I know. It's in the license agreement, right? You can't use the client with any server emulator. What a load of bunk. Since when does copyright give you the right to say how a person who has legally purchased a copy of something is allowed to use that copy? Copyright gives you the sole right to distribute copies and give public performances, and that's it. What the customer does with his copy is his business.


    Finally, you observe:


    Besides, they're underhanding Sony and Verant's entire profit system.

    Just so. The problem with the old saw about "giving away the razors and selling the blades" is that you always run the risk that someone will come along with a compatible blade and undersell you. That's capitalism; you put your product on the shelves, and you take your chances. EQ has had a good run already, and there's no reason why they can't continue to do so, provided that they have a continuing commitment to improving their service; after all, they have a huge head start on any upstart emulators. If, however, they try to sit back and soak their captive audience, they will be surpassed by the new competition, and they will lose. That's as it should be.


    -rpl

  • I never made any comments on the graphics. It must of been Hemos

  • Re:Lawsuit? Under which laws? (Score:3)

    by Golias ( 176380 ) on Wednesday August 30, 2000 @10:27AM (#815846)
    True, but were you forced to use only Sprint's digital network

    Yes. Sprint's digital network is proprietary, so my phone is no good for AT&T service. This is not a problem for me, because I got a better deal than AT&T offers. (I bought the phone that matched the service I wanted, not vice versa).

    There is no question that more people would play EQ if either the service or the software was free, but sales and subscriptions of EQ completely blew away their wildest expectations. Why ask for less money when you have so many customers willing to pay more?

    My point remains the same, they are selling you two things, a product (the software) and a service (the hosting), and feel they have the right to charge for each.

    If you don't like their pricing scheme, you have the right to spend your money elsewhere, and/or participate in the WorldForge [worldforge.org] project, which may lead to a free EQ-like game.

  • A couple of weeks ago we had a discussion why all opensource games were clones of existing games. The simple answer is that all game programmers have to start more or less from scratch. They spend their time trying to get the game working instead of thinking of great plots. The programmers of this server have probably done a good job, but we really an engine that can be used to create a lot of different games. Therefore it seems to me that worldforge [worldforge.org] is one of the the most promising open source massive multiplayer projects on the market right now.
  • Of course if you launch the game to hackersquest, you might not ever get to that EULA.
  • "How do you expect anyone to respect the (rights of the) GPL or the FSF when you trample on everyone else's rights?"

    For the same reason your post has a score of zero.

    Its easy. Their selective in their bias.

  • Thus, if HackerQuest used any of the original code (copyrighted), or any of the characters or names (trademarked) owned by Sony, they can be sued under this license, and are likely to be found in violation. Of course, they could also be in violation of the copyright, and I expect Sony registered the copyright.

    You're right that could potentially be some copyright violation. (I would imagine, though, that Hackerquest is creating original material and not infringing. That's just speculation on my part, though.)

    As for the EULA... If anyone gets sued over violating the EULA, won't Sony have to somehow show that HackerQuest has accepted the terms of, and become bound by, the EULA? Unless they have some evidence that the other party made such an "agreement", then the terms of the agreement are irrelevant.

    By clicking on "Reply to This", you agree to the terms of the Sloppy Agreement. There is currently only one term: 1. Sloppy may ammend the Sloppy Agreement at his sole discretion.


    ---
  • Ok, UO sucked. EverQuest has issues. The ONE person I know who plays Asheron's Call is about to give up. What's a gamer to do?

    Join WorldForge! www.worldforge.org

    With an Open Source player in the MMORPG niche there will be some real competition in the area of game-play. Don't like the rules? Change 'em! Want your own world? Download a server. Computer's too slow to handle the 3D client? It works with a 2D client as well as a text client.

    The real Threed's /. ID is lower than the real Bruce Perens'.

    --Threed
  • Do you really believe that EQ is pushing terrain data down your pipe in real-time as you play?

  • Some of the things would be stealing though. For instance, if you talked to an NPC, and they said, "Hello I am chief of the NPC's" or some other nonsense like that. If that speech comes from the server side, Hackersquest would be quilty of copyright infringement if they copied the storylines from the game.

    There are many instances where original text comes from the server, and copying this to the emulator would be theft.

  • From the EULA: (my emphasis)

    "7. Subject to the terms of this Agreement, we hereby grant to you a non-exclusive license to use the Software solely in connection with playing the Game via an authorized and fully-paid Account. You may not copy (except to make one necessary back-up copy), distribute, rent, lease, loan, modify or create derivative works, adapt, translate, perform, display, sublicense or transfer the Software..."

    I was hoping to get ABBA to write the songs too..

  • Hmmm.... anyone else tried it? (Score:3)

    by rudethorn ( 80234 ) on Wednesday August 30, 2000 @11:04AM (#815859)
    All of the previous posts that I have read dealt with moral ramifications, possible action on Sony and Verant's part, and the quality of EQ's graphics.

    I play EQ regularly and can safely say that while I don't enjoy paying around $10 a month, plus $40 for the game alone, It's something that I've come to terms with; they don't call it EverCrack for nothing. It would be nice sometimes, to try something a little different, ie, different NPC's, different item's, and locations.

    Curious, as most /.er's usually are by nature, I decided to try out the Hacker's Quest server. Hacker's quest has already gained notoriety for an app that they created called ShowEQ, which sniffs the packets and logs them allowing you to find out specifics of the game that Verant doesn't want you to know. It's pretty nifty, although it does kind of cheapen the experience, IMHO.

    Once, I logged on to the Hackersquest server (affectionatly titled) Nine Inch Gnomes ^_^, I made up a new character, as one would expect to do when joining a new server. Once I actually got into the game, I noticed that everyone else started as the same race and level, in the same area.... it's a beta ok... I can cope.

    I looked around some more to find that there were no NPC's, enemies, spells, or anything vaguly resembling gameplay.... underwhelming again. What did redeem this server is that they added some extra commands, that allow you to take the form of any NPC in the game; to spawn any item in the game. This was pretty nifty, I could take the form of giant hands or spectres, or try out the most expensive equipment in the game.

    Verdict: Hacker's Quest has a long way to go... without any gameplay, well it is boring as Bill Gates' wardrobe color scheme. It does have a little novelty value, but a game without anything to do is not worth noticing.

    Sidenote: Sony/Verant will take legal action, it's just their style. ^_^

    bitpusher

  • Re:It might be better... (Score:3)

    by molog ( 110171 ) on Wednesday August 30, 2000 @11:04AM (#815861) Homepage Journal
    A bug is when a program doesn't work as it intended to work. The designers/programmers have explicitly chosen to allow monsters to walk thru walls. Call it a bad design choice, but not a bug.

    I didn't know about that choice, I'm sorry for my ignorance. It was a very bad design choice, and the players shooting through windows makes since if enemies can do it too. Ok, so necros have been brought back down to earth since I left, which I suppose is good. The Hell levels are the result of bad design then. There is no reason for an Exp formula to behave like this at all.

    Doesn't change the fact that the GM events suck and that the only thing to do is max you levels while chatting to people. I will never look back to trying to get into a group just so I could waist hours at a time waiting for stuff to spawn every 10 minutes or so just to gain a very small fraction of experience points. I believe the current average to get to level 50 now is 80 days (1,920 hours) play time. I wonder what percentage of that is waiting for an enemy to spawn? I would say probably, from my own experience, around 80%.

    I suppose one could argue that this is similar to many other RPGs out there where you mindlessly fight stuff to raise levels but at least in those there was an achievable goal besides just becoming the most powerful being. There was an enemy to fight, a kingdom to restore or something along those lines that made this a means to an end. There is nothing for the players to strive for, except to be more powerful then everyone else and that gets too old too soon.
    Molog

    So Linus, what are we doing tonight?

  • Definately just a mud, instead of sending back the text description of a room you send back instructions the client would process to render a room or render a scene or whatever.. it in fact... is not that hard. It requires some hacking but I thought it out of course nothing is as easy at it seems and its a good idea to only send minimal data such as maybe where you are in the world and the client has all the "look" of the room stored on his machine so that he is not sent complex rendering instructions over the network which I think would make it to snow. Best to do just like a mud actually, send in a command prompt with vital statistics just text even and EQ client can make it all pretty and graphical, so the server side is IMO much easier to do (in thery) than the client.

    Jeremy

  • you'd still be hurting Sony because you'd be undermining a deal they would have been paid for

    Well, that's just the nature of competition. Competitors "undermine" each other's sales every day. If someone wants to run a service that competes with the one that Sony offers, there's not much that Sony can do about it unless they buy some new legislation.

    You'd still be violating the license

    Ask yourself what contractual consideration you received for agreeing to that license. If you didn't get anything, then it's not a contract -- it's just words on a page. Remember: you already owned the game before you ever saw the license, so your right to play the game was never at stake. And if the game refuses to install or play before you click on "I agree" then it is defective software. Modifying the software to let you get around the "I agree" or spoofing/tricking it by pretending to agree (clicking on "I agree") without really agreeing, is certainly within your rights.


    ---
  • The EULA specifically permits using the CD software "solely in connection with playing the Game via an authorized and fully-paid Account." So, if you're using the CD to play on the emulator, you're in violation of clause 7 of the EULA.

    Definitions for authorized [dictionary.com] (From dictionary.com [dictionary.com])

    1. To grant authority or power to.
    2. To give permission for; sanction: the city agency that authorizes construction projects.
    3. To be sufficient grounds for; justify.

    Nowhere in there does it say "Granted authority by Sony-Empire-Of-Doom Ltd." Their shrinkwrap agreement is, in this case, largely meaningless.

    On the other hand, if they change the agreement to read "Servers authorized by Sony" or Verison or whatever will be dictated by Sony's agreement with Verison, then yeah, that part of the shrinkwrap might actually mean something.

    And, HackerQuest is in violation of clause 9, which specifically states: "You may not use our intellectual property rights contained in the Game or the Software to create or provide any other means through which the Game may be played by others, as through server emulators."

    Except, as someone else mentioned, in Europe, where such activities are expressly protected, for the purposes of interoperability. Remember that shrinkwrap agreements lose their power where prohibited by local, state, or federal law. This applies internationally, as well.

    Thus, if HackerQuest used any of the original code (copyrighted), or any of the characters or names (trademarked) owned by Sony, they can be sued under this license, and are likely to be found in violation. Of course, they could also be in violation of the copyright, and I expect Sony registered the copyright. In that case, HackerQuest could be in the hole for $150,000 statutory damages for each instance of copying code. (See 17 USC Section 504 [cornell.edu], and note [pma-online.org] that the statutory damages have been increased.

    (Above paragraph edited for links)

    I'm sure they did, but your "thus" is inappropriate here. The 17 USC Section 504 that you quote doesn't apply to their reverse engineering under Euro law. I do agree that if they used names, terms, et cetera which are copyrighted, then they could get in a lot of trouble. I don't think they're copying code, though; I think they're duplicating function. That's a little different.

  • If you own a land-line phone, you are charge for the phone service.

    If you are in England, and you buy a TV, and then have to pay the "rates" to use it.

    If you buy lights, you still need to pay for electricity to use them.

    Starting to see a pattern here? It does not matter where you are from, a lot of things are split into "purchace cost" and "maintainence cost". EQ is just one more example.

  • Because its always cheaper and more profitable to sue than to compete.
  • Look, running these servers are going to cause Variant to loose money, it?s a simple as that. So? Who ever said that Variant had a god given right to make money the way they planned? They might be pissed, but if they are, they have no legal leg to stand on (no-reverse engineering clauses are not legally binding in any way). So what? Should we ban anything that might cause someone to loose money? Why?

    Civil Disobedience is breaking the law for a higher purpose, breaking unjust laws. And the whole point is to get caught. What your describing is, well it isn't anything. We are free to do whatever we want, and if it causes a company with a bad business model to go out of business, then, that?s just to bad.

    Amber Yuan 2k A.D
  • They are stealing eyeballs, they are stealing users!. And all of us know that users are property. Everything belongs to the intermediary corporations that distribute stuff, duh.

    Amber Yuan 2k A.D
  • If you buy lights, you still need to pay for electricity to use them.

    Should the eletrical company be able to sue someone for giving away free solar cells and batteries?

    Sure, the servers need to be paid for somehow, but why shouldn't someone else be able to provide an alternative service?

    Amber Yuan 2k A.D
  • They got bought by a big multi-website media company.

    Not to nit-pick here, but andover wasn't really a 'big media company', they were small time when slashdot got baught. Slashdot probably accounted for 80% of their webhits or something.

    Of course, andover got purchaced by a huge computer company.... but anyway

    Why does slashdot suck now? beacuse its gotten big, and the comments have gotten lame, most of the people who post on this thing are morons now, it sucks.

    Amber Yuan 2k A.D
  • Unfortionatly, I'd say that, in it's current state, it's practically unusable as a 'production' level game platform. The graphics are there, and damned nice, but it takes alot more then the engine to make a MMORPG.

  • Under French law (and I believe, EU law as well), it is illegal to artifically tie 2 separate products for sale, because it's detrimental to competition. You just can't say: you can only buy product B if you buy product A. Of course, you can give discounts in that case, but I guess it has to remain within reason.

    It can be easily argued that the software package you buy in a shop, and the network service provided by Verant/Sony are two separate products. Hell, they are billed separately, sold separately, and the person who buys A (the box) might not be the same as the one who buys B (the network service).

  • *sigh* Do you even know how to read? What part of my message was even remotely unclear? Is it hard to type with paws?
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Any after-the-fact agreement like that is void, it's extortion. They sell you a product which they claim will do certain things, then they say it'll only do that if you follow a bunch of rules they didn't mention before you paid...

    And there's NOTHING illegal about taking advantage of someone else's work in such a way. Is Michelin breaking the law in making tires for Ford trucks?

    The software you buy can be used for anything you desire, with the exception of certain copyright restrictions. Microsoft can't tell you that you can't run certain types of programs on their OS, or that you must run it on certain hardware only, etc.

    Neither does any program provider have any legal leg to stand on when they declare you can't use an emulated server instead of theirs. Selling the emulated service is perfectly legal.

    Network protocols aren't 'creative works' and can't be copyrighted.
  • Nothing is ripped from anything, I don't understand what you're saying. You use exactly the same client, displaying the same graphics. Nothing is new except the IP you connect to. And as all the same graphics and everything are used, being part of the client not the server, it doesn't matter.

    And, I'd like to point out that 'ripping' graphics and sounds out of your copy of Everquest is perfectly legal. If there's an image you'd like to use as a background, go for it. Unless you distribute the images, you're not violating their copyright. They might have an EULA that says otherwise, but it's not legally binding in any way and is actually outright illegal in some ways. (To write a warranty like that for a physical product would get the government and consumer protection groups cracking down *so* quickly...)
  • >If I own a legit copy of the game,

    Except they don't let you OWN the game.

    You licence a copy. And that 'licence' changes what your 'rights are'.

    The question becomes: Will the owner of the software come and spank you and take away your birthday if you violate the licence? No....too many of you moles to whack. There is another 'final solution'.

    You seem to have all forgotten this [slashdot.org] slashdot Sony story. The 'method' they want to apply to MP3's works to stop hackerquest. Yup, go after the ISP's to 'blackhole' the hackerquest systems.

  • Now I agree with this point. If the servers have new worlds different than the first, that would be legitimate.

    But if they're copying things verbatim... no.

  • In order to run the emulator you have to own the game so the emulator can rip all the artwork and music out of the game. I'm sorry but this is just plain illegal and unethical.

    Aside from the fact that you're wrong, you're wrong. This is a server emulator, not a client emulator, so there's no "ripping" of anything out of anything else. You play with your same old client. Even if this were a client emulator, loading graphics from your original CD would be both legal and ethical. There's no difference in pulling bits off the CD with a resource editor and pulling bits off the CD with a clone of the game. In neither situation are you using the software the graphics creator intended to be used to view the graphics, but in neither situation are you making unauthorized copies of the data. Courts have held for years that loading data from disk into temporary memory does not constitute copying.

    -Mars

  • Extortion is simple when I demand payment for you to allow you to do something you're legally entitled to do.

    If I demand $100 or I'll beat you senseless, that's extortion. If I demand you buy a 'Sidewalk License' or I'll kill your dog, that's extortion. If I sell you a product and then after you pay, offer to sell you the unmentioned activation key for another payment, that's extortion...

    Tires aren't server emulators, but the analogy is a good one quite valid in this case.

    Michelin tires don't work exclusively with Ford trucks, but if Ford made a truck that took a new type of tire, I'm sure Michelin would make tires for it, if they thought it would sell, regardless of other companies making a similar car. That means those tires would work exclusively with Ford trucks, and it's irrelevant.

    And by your standards, Michelin tires DO encourage the theft of Ford trucks. If Ford was the sole maker of tires, you could bet they'd be a LOT more expensive than they are now. The fact that Michelin (and other companies) make tires drives down the total cost of ownership for a truck, and especially the maintenance cost. Now it's cheaper for someone to steal a truck, the maintenance cost is more reasonable...

    But that's all irrelevant. Making a product that works with someone else's service is completely legal. Writing contract that after-sale forbid that and tying continues product support to that contract, is illegal.

    Server emulators are *completely* legal. Contracts which forbid them are a best void, at worst, attempts at fraud...

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