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India's Red Alert - no more US software 150

jplove writes "From the Economic Times in India is this story about the Indian Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) issuing a `red alert' against all network security software developed in the US.. The story says the Indian Central Vigilance Commissioner, N Vittal, indicated he might make it mandatory for all Indian banks and financial institutions to buy only software developed in India. "
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India's Red Alert - no more US software

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  • by Anonymous Coward
    From the history of Enigma that I know of, and in my country we talk about this alot:

    Enigma was originally developed in Holland, it was simple, and it was just before WWII..

    Germans took it and extended it. No one ever knew back then that something like this existed.

    Finest polish mathematitians (not the profs, but brightests students) were grouped to break it. They had no luck till someone gave them (?smuggled?) the dutch prototype, what clued them in.

    They sent all their info to England, where famous Alan Turing continues as germans were constantly imporoving the way wheels were changing. (there is famouse case that English knew about city bomb attack from decoded messages, but never warned anyone not to inform germans that they knew how germans encode their data).

    Germans sent a crappy version of enigma to Japan (as they had a war with US). Japanese expected for it to be a rather crappy version by then so they imrpoved it.. During the whole war US never fully cracked Japanse Enigma, and they did have few parts off of it.


    Thats from what I know.. I never induldged into any new advances in Enigma technology, and maybe brute force could crack it now easly, but back then US couldnt (and they nack then tried to brute force it, but ended nowhere, i still remember movies about, and those big machines making holes on paper strips).

    BTW: In Poland we talk mainly about those mathematitians that cracked first Enigma, and whatever else is unfortunatelly omitted. Alan Turing is not mentioned for which I am sorry, but thats how they teach everything.. a bit too patritic.. oh well.. now you know how I learned about this..
  • Vidar Hokstad wrote:

    On the contrary. This should be great for India, because it finally create a larger market for software development for domestic use, as opposed to for export.

    Even better, once they get their own software together for their local use, they can export it under their own labels to other countries. Should be easy to sell:
    "Their software is unsecure. Our software is not only as secure as you want it to be, but we've got proper internationalization support as well."

    If they play their cards right, there are alot of emerging markets out there where they could become the primary supplier.
  • liang wrote:

    If they can do a nuclear test without the US awareness, they can do it again.

    The US was aware of the nuclear test. Everyone was aware of their nuclear test. That was the point of the test, to put knowledge of their nuclear capability out of the intellegence agencies' files and into public awareness. Pakistan's reply was for a similar purpose.
  • How so? Remember, India didn't sign the Wassenaar Agreement.

  • It wouldn't be the first time a commercial product had been exported with one....

    Remember all that key escrow stuff?

    -- Eric
  • Enough folks in power are.

    Louis Freeh (director of the NSA), for one. Also, don't underestimate the cluelessness of the US Congress; As I see it, they're largely afraid that if after a repeal of the export laws some terrorist group is shown to use strong crypto, they'll be held to blame.

    Effing' idiots...
  • by cduffy ( 652 )
    You're quite right.
  • The problem with these laws is they are problematical mainly to the law-abiding.

    If I were intent on providing strong cryptography to bad people, I could. I could upload it to them over the Net, for example, and who could really stop me? I could put it on a CD-ROM and send it through the mail as well, maybe bury it in a box full of goodies for 'Grandma'. Post office can't check everything.

    Meanwhile, businesses who want to follow the law and want to sell software abroad have to sell either crippled cryptography with their software or not provide it at all.

    Welcome to the United States :[

  • Posted by Phantom of the Operating System:

    Microsoft is doing software development in India,
    or did we all forget that.
  • Point 1: YEP. Personally I belive in ethanol, but it is hard to find it when not mixed with oil.

    2: Sigh, wish it wasn't true. Saddly the world has proved they will draw the US into their struggles. So now we try to stop potential world wars early. If it is working is up for debate. Most people I know in england think world war I was the greatest thing, it had to happen. They support their ancesters dancing in the streets when it broke out. I havn't talked to people in other nataions, but my impression is much of Europe was that way. Belive it or not, most of the US wants to be an isolationist as far as military goes. It doesn't work, we are too large, and have (currently) too much technology that can apply to military uses to not be drawn in. Ever noticed that Switcherland is the only country to maintain nutrality, and they are suck in mountains. There are lots of little nations (Netherlands comes to mind) that want to do the same thing, but they too are drawn into these conflicts because of their location.

    3: Sigh. There are too many idiots in the US. I think most of them are waking up to that use. We belive in coincidences once (critics of George Bush will point something out here), but the second time we start asking questions.

    Oh, and a part of the Gulf war was Kuwait (got no idea how to speel that) was friendly, Iraq wasn't as friendly. We protect our friends even if there is no way they can help protect us. Now perhaps that goverment didn't deserve protection I don't know (I look at them as the lesser of the two evils, friendly to the US, or ruled by Iraq being the choices)

    In summery: World peace has not happened yet, and few people belive it will happen in their lifetime. Pointing out any country as not helping world peace doesn't really take into account that peace gained at the hands of whips and chains isn't worth it. (If your not in the US you probably won't recignise where that came from, If you are a US citician and don't please kill yourself and rid the world of a fool)

  • Consider what has happened recently in India and then tell me why this is the fault of "bad software from the United States."

    1. India elected a new nationalist government.
    2. India detonated...six nuclear devices...that was the number right?
    3. The United States decided it was time to stop exporting software and equipment to India and Pakistan that would help thier nuclear programs.

    So why does this action by India point the the decline of American software. If India had done this to Israel or Germany it would not have recieved the negative comments about those countries.
  • Please learn to use proper punctuation, and to
    always write complete sentences.
  • *sigh* it's impossible for any topic to come up on slashdot without some luser whining about microsoft. get a life!

    i suspect the real reason is protectionism - india has the beginning of a powerful software industry, but for now they're heavily dependant on foreign business - this could be an attempt to change that.

    see 'decline and fall' by ed yourdon for more in india.
  • microsoft's mission has always been "a computer on every desktop" and that's exactly what they've always tried to do.
  • this is true, although there seems to be some sort of general feeling amongst the linux public that making money by selling software is evil, and since microsoft are the best at doing this, they are to be criticised at every step.

    now, folk make a lot of noise which say that MS take away freedom of choice whereas the exact opposite is true - bill gates simply exercises his freedom more than most, and his success is the proof.
  • can't you see that you are violating gates right to free trade with this lawsuit?

    you *don't* have the right to buy whatever you want - only the right to buy what you are offered.

    any claim that MS have taken away choice is sheer nonsense - linux is the proof.
  • This is the kind of pressure we need. This may well spur U.S. software companies (including, perhaps, our big-stick-carrying friends in Redmond) to pressure the Government to dispose of the crypto export restrictions.
  • How illuminating. A sovereign state made a decision, then everybody says the goverment went to shit. I think this is great not only for India, but for all underdeveloped countries. There has been a massive exodus of professionals from these countries to countries which don't really appreciate their contributions. This kind of decisions should (read should) serve as an incentive for the growing software industry. This would give these emigrating professionals a better opportunity to stay in their homelands. Besides, no goverment should depend on software developed in other (potentially competing) countries for mission critical systems.
  • I think the Indian goverment has a sound argument for making this decision. As is it quoted in the article, no software can be exported from the U.S. if it is too strong for the NSA to break it. No one in the US can expect anyone anywhere to trust US "secure" software under these terms. In fact, this should not come as a surprise. If I were a banker or someone runing a military installation in XYZ country, if I had a chance to not to use US encryption software and use something "stronger" I would. Isn't that logical? For tactical and economic reasons, this should be expected.

    But no, you got people saying "Indian goverment went to shit", "indian programmers are dumb", "what the f* are they doing here" and some other crap. Even worse, if an Indian replies to these bigot comments, he is bombarded with "get the f* out" replies. What do you people expect, that Indians just take your brainless crap just because you say so? I don't think so.

    Everytime there is an article regarding a underdeveloped country you see crap like this. All the time it is the same shit. How do you call that? Racism, just plain racism. You don't need to burn a cross or put somebody in a gas chamber to be a racist. Your attitude, your comments, the stereotypes you hold, they make (or not) you a racist. Lots of people seem to dislike (hate) 3rd world programmers because they are more willing to accept lower salaries than native ones (natives - what an irony.) Is it these people's fault to be resilient and be eager to do whatever it takes to make a living or the companies that take advantage of the situation? Can you blame a company for hiring someone who is willing to work for less? If so, blame yourselves because these companies work as your society allows it. With what right can any of you say "Indians go home"? Unless you are a Native American, you have no right, no right to say that to anybody, period. It seems that you have forgotten that at one point in time your forefathers were foreign too, that they were exploited too, that they were abused, discriminated, labeled as dirty and stupid, that despite all that, they had their dreams and that they adapted and succeeded. This is survival of the fittest or more resilient or more adaptable. This is the law of competition, the American way, the acceptable way unless it's applied to you. Either force companies to pay foreign workers fairly or accept lower salaries (adapt and compete) or take a boat and cross the Atlantic. Doesn't feel good to be told these things, does it?

  • Because it isn't an advantage. There are a great many strong encryption systems in the world, most of which have permeated the world outside the US anyway (and once they're out of US it's legal to distribute them further from other countries).
    From my desktop, anywhere in the world, I can get strong encryption software easily. Banning the export from one particular country is like blocking off one of the holes in a sieve. All it does is hurt the companies within that countries, who cannot compete in the export market.

  • Whats so bad about it? Most of the indian nationals that come to the U.S. are going to stay in the U.S. India gains no advantage of sending it's citizens to the States if none of them come back. If they were to come back and use their experience then thats something.

  • You didn't understand his comment. If you eliminate the rich and middle class, you are left with the peasants. It will take some time to rebuild (if you can after a nuclear attack) to come back the same technology level as other nations. In either case, a nuclear war within that region is a no-win situation. You can't win with nuclear weapons. Ever. There can be no excuse for murdering an entire planet.

  • Seems very clear to me. Have you not been following whats happening in Russia? Excess of arms creates a surplus. That surplus has to be gotten rid of. It might get sold to terrorists whatever. You can't have that kind of material loose. If everyone started stocking up, especially in a no-win scenario, you'll get excess. Thats what he's trying to say.

    Out of curiosity, why must you end every response with some kind of flame? Attack the issue not the person. Or is this some sort of trick you use in law school when it comes debating?

  • The last time I check, all the Indian programmers were working on software for US companies. They're even a bunch of them working on OS/2!

    Timur "too sexy for my code" Tabi,,
  • I have a Master's degree in Computer Science.

    As for my comment being racist, it's only "racist" in the sense that it talks about a particular "race" of people (I don't consider Indians to be their own race, but that's irrelevant). As for saying, "They're even a bunch of them", that was a typo. I meant to write, "There's even a bunch of them".

    Timur "too sexy for my code" Tabi,,
  • It is indeed difficult for govt organizations to get software personnel, because most go to US, or join private companies.
    Govt can't pay at the levels that Industry pays.

    So the question is: Is industry geared for our own software
    development? Yes, if lot of companies who export software
    can divert some of their investments for local market.

  • It seems to me that you actively try to find racist remarks in every post..

    I can understand that you are proud of your heritage etc etc. The amount of pride/insecurity that you radiate is , well pathetic.

    Apology accepted.

  • Ummm... what was racist? On a per capita basis, India is on the low side of the curve for developing nations.

    In 1992 USN&WR has India listed as high as Fifth in the nation by 2000 in economic strength. I really thought and hoped that would be true. But misappropriated funds in favor of militarizaion, fraud, and political instability has not brought forth the prosperous status once believed would be there.

    I didn't see anything racist, maybe exagerated and not entirely factually correct, but nothing racist. Replace the words with Mexico and see how you feel about it.
  • You last assertion is unfounded. Simply because there are WMD in a region, does not create a normative right to retaliatory ability. Read the Sagan articles criticizing the Waltz deterrence theory. Sagan's analysis on how multination WMD leads to instability and increase the ability for convention conflict. I have spent many, many hours on this shit.
  • I do not see how you get these? Do you blindly read and believe every issue of Christian Science Monitor?

    You first (oil domination) has no apparent merit. (a) We allow Iraq to sell oil for domestic supplies. If we wanted dominance in the oil market we would not allow this. We are also increasing the amount they are allowed to sell. (b) There is such a glut in crude that OPEC cannot hold it back.. The idea of US ever being able to dominate crude it only a dream.

    Your second (global police force) (a) has no impact. (b) This can be seen as a good deterrant. You ignore culpability of Iraq. The US is in a very unique position in such a polarized world that is has an obligation to use its position for peace.

    Your third (intl distraction) could possibly be true. However, (a) Iraq did just recently recind its offer of help to UN inspectors and (b) no impact, the attack still served a valuable purpose.

    On a net whole, the negative of some amorphous idea of it being used as a distraction versus the threat of WMD and weakening of UN policing is not even a comparison.
  • I have worked will poeple of all nationality my entire (but short) life. Some (most) of my closest friends have be Indian and among them I have me people that are no lazier, smarter, or harder working that any other race (Actually, the laziest person I have ever met was Indian, but he was also my close friend). I am very lazy, but I am not Indian.

    People should be read all the literature about "The Bell Curve" and how there is more variation within a race than between races, thus defying generalizations of the race.

    Damn, all y'all need to get out and meet more people.

    Ohhh... Don't have the player, hate the game.


    MJ, the world will miss you.
  • >I would not sit back and watch Pakistan and
    >China stock up on ammo. I would stock up too.

    GET A FUCKING CLUE. The only reason I am this pissed off at you is becuase in a previous post (about 2 below this one) you told someone the s/he needed to brushup on his military theory. It is painfully obvious that you do not know what you talking about either.

    Why? First, the ad hom attacks: you have to be fucking moron to really believe this statement. There are three immediate problems:

    (1) Accidental launch. There are two scearios: (a) falso information leads to a poor decision and (b) malfunction.

    (2) more loose fissile material to be stolen and/or sold to terrorists.

    (3) Use of loose. In a case where two countries cannot totally devistate another (as was the case in the MAD world of the Cold War), govts are faced with a use or loose scenario on buildup.
  • The Jamaican Government is good at playing folow-the-leader.

    Now that India is leading towards no crappie insecure software for mission critical work maybe we can talk our ministers into doing the same.

    Before you ask. Yes we have tried before. 3 or 4 years ago when they wanted to buy a system for voter registration which would latter be expanded to do actual voting, we lobbied and failed to have TRW disqualified. The weird thing about that one is they used them over Delarue (SP?) The british company which prints our cash.

    "Look Mr. PM. Windows isn't good enough to run a business in India. They want Linux and indigenous software. Shouldn't we be importing from them and Australia sean as we have all these cool trade agreements with them anyway ?"
  • I was going to say something to the effect that the Indian government used a nuke in the past year! Which is different than using it over 50 years ago during a global war. The revisionist historians would have you believe otherwise.

    But since you talk about "abosolute power corrupts absolutely." I'll agree, and add a corollary by saying that Politics is the only profession where a person can attain power without merit.

    Incidentally, the US now has a very small military for its (US') size.
  • I've heard a joke that India gets more foreign aid from its diaspora than from the US govt.

    Something tells me this is not a _totally_ ridculous assertion, maybe only partially ridiculous.
  • At least Slashdot hasn't sold out.
  • I don't believe you're an Indian at all. All the Indians I ever met were polite and had exceptional manners. They also didn't drone on and on about race (religion and politics, maybe).

    I have met several 2nd/3rd generation Americans of Indian ancestry who were paranoid potty mouthed punks like you, however.

    I suggest you leave the posters here alone and go rediscover your heritage, weasel boy.
  • Other companies have fronted for the NSA. Crypto A. G. in Switzerland was selling enigma boxes to foriegn governments for years with full knowledge and cooperation of the NSA. (And without telling anyone that Enigma had been broken during WWII.)
  • I cannot imagine operating anything sensitive without access to source code, at least in the components of the system that are supposed to keep it secure, like network monitoring, firewalls, and cypto. Otherwise who knows what "exploitable features" might be hidden inside. This is just plain prudence, and it is good to see it publicized. Too bad it took India going nuclear (and catching the U.S. by surprise) to make the Indian government get religion when it comes to securing their data.

    It will take publicity like this to make U.S. businesses relaize that they are exposed to corrupt foriegn officials with access to intelligence gathering when they operate overseas. Then we may get some reform of the crypto laws in this country.
  • > If they're so smart, why don't they move outta the flood plain?

    Maybe because there are three times as many of them as there are of the merkans.

    It only stands to reason that they should not only have more geniouses, but also more idiots (unless the US is a very exceptional case).

    So, maybe you should take your foot and its rather humid surroundings somewhere else...
  • No, I just think the indian government has gone to shit in recent years.
  • The ironic thing is that U.S.-branded software probably is software developed in India by Indians.
  • All Indian programmers, eh? So I would need just one example to disprove your point?
  • You said "all the Indian programmers were working on software for US companies". This is quite different from finding software written in India selling on the shelf in the US.

    My firm deals with a number of Indian and Russian software consulting companies. One of the Indian companies produces high-end NC software for mechanical flame cutters which is sold not only in India, but in the US and Europe. I think that serves quite effectively to demolish your original statement.
  • Wassenaar Agreement... Sorry, I'm not familiar with that... any good sites (gosh, even books!!) ? I'll search around, but pls post if you know the jist of it off hand...
  • So, maybe you should take your foot and its rather humid surroundings somewhere else.

    Maybe you're responding to that. I presume that means: Foot in hot water = rather humid surroundings of your foot. Or, the foot-in-mouth syndrome = moist, and perhaps even humid surroundings.

    But lets jest leeve all-a-dat alone shall we?

  • I think the northern part of the country is relatively cool and dry. Along the northern coast it might be quite temperate.
  • When mail stops to work when Clinton's impeachment was under way? That's it :-)

  • Lahore is right next door to India -- in Pakistan.
    That's a mighty long border between those two countries. Can't seal it hermetically. India isn't
    exactly going to have an easy time keeping Pakistani agents from applying for programming jobs. I bet a classified memo from their security agency says "it's hopeless," and that they're just being a tad whimsical with this idea.
  • First, the US throws a leash on its people by not allowing them to sell good software to non-US citizens. Now India is thinking about throwing a leash on its people by not allowing them to buy any potentially good software from non-Indian citizens. How far will this go? Are we all doomed to be stuck in a perpetual cycle of bureaucratic ignorance?


  • Two compelling reasons. One, the US has no advantage as far as superiority in encryption goes. If the US does happen to have some incredible encrypting software that no one else has, it will most certainly leak out to the rest of the world sooner or later. Two, import and export controls only stifle the economy. Perhaps some sort of control may seem advantageous in the short-term, but in the long-term it's just sheer irrationality that costs everyone. India's actions are an extremely good example of export control gone bad (And what will happen if India bans external security software and India is unable to keep up with the rest of the world? Pointlessly forced insularity isn't too smart).


  • "Another related point is that when we buy an imported software product that is a `black box' to us, we cannot be sure that the software package does not contain a time bomb of sorts, to cause havoc to the network when an external command is issued by a hostile nation."

    I like that. However, I think that the US tends to be more direct than that. Witness Iraq bombings and the like. Perhaps the world should beware of software from smaller countries though -- someplace like Japan might be plotting to take over the world through blackmail :)
  • India is an extreme country. They funds the nuclear project while most of their people still under poverty levels.
    Don't laugh, India have the funds to make nuclear weapons, they definite can funds the crypto technology.
    If they can do a nuclear test without the US awareness, they can do it again.
    Who knows, maybe they will embeded linux for their government computer system 8)
  • As it is, India's move is logical and really called for. There is no reason why many other nations should not do exactly the same.

    Many countries have now a fairly good software development capacity. With commerce and industrial secrets becoming more and more the daily care of intelligence agencies all over the world, it is plain stupidity to allow for No Such an Agency to be able to break into your (our, for that matter, Im brazilian) national infra-structure.

    No poster so far gave one good reason for anyone to keep buying american weak crypto tech.

    Also, the combination of free\open software with the end of american brain drain (due to the creation of local jobs) would be economically attractive to any government.

  • I was under the impression No Such an Agency would not run M$ products for anything other than after-hours solitaire. And even then only in a disconnected tempest-proof box.
  • In 1979, when the Komehini(the spelling is probably wrong) replaced the Palevi clan, the US isolated Iran from the international community. At that time China and USSR sold weapons to Iran. Sometime after that Iran was attacked by a west (mainly US and UK) armed Iraq. Iran eventually won (that is, send Iraq troops back home defeated and kept its frontiers intact). Unfortunatelly Saddam never forgot the taste of blood.
  • Yesterday we found out that WinNT 4.0 failed to meet basic security testing required for the US to purchase the product. Maybe India has taken this as a big warning sign that US products are inferior? Either that or they're getting smart and working to develop their own software industry.
  • There are smart and dumb everying. I can't believe educated people would make generalizations about the quality of programmers from a particular country. I'm an indian law student. My uncle was one of the founders of the floppy drive industry (remember Tandon, Inc.? no? who cares.) The point is that like or not Indian people are the wealthiest and most educated minority group in the U.S. Most of us are in the "top 2%" that causes so much controversy. I'm proud to be Indian because we have a rich and glorious culture and history. But practically speaking, many of you in the tech industry definitely work with an Indian person, or for an Indian person. From the sound of these negative stereotypical comments... well I'll say this, in CA well call y'all "player haters" you hate the real players cause you're a little bitch.
  • There is a huge Indian diaspora that covers the planet. I have relatives in Canada, GB, Australia, Kenya, South Africa, Omman, India, Jordan... The list goes on. We are all professionals too...
  • Sorry about the language, but I'm Indian and perceiving racism afoot. If you didn't mean it to be racist, you sound racist. So get it together (were you educated?). "They're even a bunch of them..." that's condescending. You are a fucking punk...
  • E Ji, it's a called a donation ;)
  • I'm pissed at the quasi-racist comments. I may have been speaking for you... I agree, that name calling is uncalled-for. Yet, slashdot readers get under my skin sometimes. People who put down others due to envy of the others' success is low. I like the term "player haters." It clearly defines a very common phenomenon these days, where people can't just be glad for someone else's success. We can all be successful. I know I will.
  • If you ever want to get your ass kicked... bitch, email me and I'm down to oblige you...
  • I was about to post a message that I'm down to kick your bitch ass. Oh I did, racism is the one thing that will make me lose my cool. Biiiiiaaaayyyaatch. It must be nice that you can post your bitch ass little remarks in your anonymous coward way. You would not say that to my face, I guarantee it. But if you were that stupid, I'd make you pay, punk.
  • American. Teenager. Virgin. Sexually addicted (to masturbation). Probably reasonably intelligent. From a family that does not foster proper moral value (daddy's an alcoholic or mommy plays naked twister with the neighbors). Probably not from California or New York. Probably got that 7-11 joke from the Simpsons. Summation: average intelligence, below average appearance, below average background.
  • Oh I forgot before... My point was that Indians are very prevalent in the technology industry. Not that I think we are "so great" just prevalent. The diversity is a good thing. Indians immigrate to different countries for various reasons. My father came here because during partition Indian universities closed. My post was so acrid because I sensed that the previous poster was a bigot, and nothing enrages me more than bigotry (I've had time to cool down so I'm cool now). If you were offended, I apologize. But it seems to me I struck a chord with you, and you seemed to say that you agree with that comment. IOW, it appears that you think educated can make generalizations. WRONG. My point is that generalizations are signs of ignorance. If you like making those, then (sorry) the "player hater" "little bitch" comment applies to you, because that's what you understand. If you don't then it doesn't. I don't know you, but I guarantee you that if you made a blunt racial overture in front of me, we'd have
    to step outside. If you weren't, then we could sit down to some scotch, tell jokes, and kick it... I'm a simple man; I'm either mad or laughing...
  • I should not have lost my cool. By the way sucker, what's with the "Habib" remark? My name's Nate or Nathan. You obviously have a little maturity problem of your own if you still can't manage to refrain from bigotry. It's a shame; you probably think of yourself as a mature individual too.
  • I want to formally apologize for my behavior on this site. I made some very inflammatory remarks that, in retrospect, should not have been made. But comments that border on bigotry truly infuriorate me. Like my brother says, "makes me act my color." At that point it was red. Nevertheless, the sentiment stands. Todays threads as to this article have for the most part been rationale opinions as to the state of the economy vis a vis cryptographic export restrictions. Yet, many posters have resorted to blanket generalizations about India, Indian people, and the quality of their work and products. I'm no pro-political-correctness individual. However, more reasoned and educated responses are a necessary conduit for the communication on this website. The old addage applies: If you don't have something nice to say... Don't say anything at all. That does not mean that one cannot engage in heated debate, it means keeping the content intellectually stimulated. It does not mean infuriating, or volatile. In
    the future I will ignore ignorant ACers whose sole ambition is to enrage his brother or sister. These individuals will learn life's dire lessons in due course. I tend to be a deeply spiritual person, and hold non-violence up as the most beautiful gift man could give to his world. Yet, like most men, I am subject to the whims of my body. I can become enraged. I have striken others. I have lashed out. One thing I have learned in life is that causation is a cruel and just arbiter. I do not wish to be the effect of an evil cause, nor do I wish to cause evil. When I have caused it, I've faced it. Causation has been cruel to me too. Humans behave vastly uglier now even from the ugly time in which I was born. Yet, the Earth by and large remains beautiful. We are not powerful. Power creates; ignorance destroys. At times, ignorance flourishes by destroying and festers like puss. When it has no more to break it ignorantly destroys itself. I hope I won't again; I hope you all won't act like puss.

    I apologize again...
  • You are right. Indians have done well here, because highly educated Indians were the first to immigrate. That will change. The situation in Canada is different. More working class Indians have immigrated there. Asians in general are a very highly achieving minority group in this country. Stats show that Indians have the highest percentage of postgraduate degrees, and income over say $60,000/yr. Asians in general are a very diverse group. The socio-economic backgrounds of the immigrants varies more widely. I can't site to any specific study; (I watched a story on CNN). So maybe it's not all that reliable. I still disagree with you on the ability to make generalizations. Usually that are not valid.
  • You can think what you want. You don't know me. I don't care who you are, racial jokes are not funny. You won't see me laughing at any ever.
  • That's why you think jokes about your own race are funny. You do it just to impress these racists.
  • By the way, thanks homie. I was beginning to feel like David against the lions. If your anywhere near Nor Cal, email me, we'll hook up and kick down some liquor. PEACE.
  • The biggest problem to indian industries is the problem of not being able to import Highly secure software for important services. Though banks can import after getting special export permissions from the US government, the US government has banned export to number of indian Organizations including the DRDO. It is logical that there should be a movement within india to build better products for encryption if US government does not agree.

    FYI, India started building its own parallel supercomputers after US government stopped sale of thiers to india. I guess Encryption software will follow the same route.

    I think it is good... however I'm not very optimistic whether DRDO will enforce these laws.

  • I don't agree India has the right to be hostile any more than any other country in the world. Believe it or not the US intentions with the bombing of Iraq was not to start a war, or to increase tension between the countries, but to stop a war that could kill millions of people (with chemical weapons and possible nuclear retaliation), this doesn't make it right, but we also have to consider the decision of the French and English governments in the events leading up to WW2....

    Also I don't agree that any country should be allowed to do any nuclear testing at all, with every nuclear weapon explosion radioactive particles are released into the atmosphere and scattered around the globe increasing the chance of birth defects in every nation.....
  • I would suspect that an Indian software company with a little extra pocket change has paid off the right people to me. I agree with the sentiment though, as the US obviously sees encryption as a form of weapon, why shouldn't any other upwardly mobile country do the same?

    After all, there are quite a few more Indians in the world than Americans, you'd think they'd be able to scrape some good stuff together.
  • Hell, even I wouldn't bus US made security software without open source (ie: none) and I live there. Why should India?
  • RSA went to Australia. India won't buy our stuff. Hey Congress, whatever happened to helping the US having let alone maintaining a technological leads. Maybe in 3-4 years when the gov can't buy a US made security system they'll see the error of their ways...
  • Well, depends which Clinton/China thing to which he's referring. They're kinda intermeshed, but involved two separate things:

    • The transfer of sensitive satellite encryption data to China. Loral helped China's satellite launch program, which simultaneously helped their missile program, even though China is thought to be exporting missile and nuclear technology to countries like Iran and Pakistan. Their actions would have been in violation of the Foreign Relations Authorization Act, except for the fact that Bill Clinton signed a waiver allowing Loral to do go ahead. By the way, Bernard Schwartz, Loral's CEO just happened to be Bill Clinton's biggest donor at the time. You can read the details in a legal brief produced for a class action lawsuit brought by Judicial Watch on behalf of Loral shareholders at []
    • All that Chinese money which ended up in the Democratic National Committe's pockets before the 1996 elections. You've probably heard of some of the players here: John Huang, Jonny Chung, Charlie Trie, a Ms. Liu (forgot her first name), et al. This resulted in high placement for some of these people and their associates at the Clinton Commerce Department, which accordingly gave China some sweetheart treatment. Classified satellite documents were taken from the Department by Chinese spies, and the investigation is ongoing. This stuff has been mentioned in a lot of different places, but for something which ties the parts together (those which are known so far), you should check out [] and see Part III: Commercegate/Chinagate.

    You might notice that both of my links point to the Judicial Watch web site. Well, you can thank Janet Reno for that, since she has been showing some major reluctance toward having the Justice Department investigate this. So much so that many of the Chinese players have fled the country. Instead, Judicial Watch (a non-profit organization which is definitely no friend of Clinton and his administration) and The New York Times have been about the only players on the forefront of making sure that the public finally learns what really happened.


  • Question: How does the net worth of the previous Anonymous Coward compare to the net worth of anybody at Microsoft?

    Clueless, indeed.

    Have a nice day,

  • On the contrary. This should be great for India, because it finally create a larger market for software development for domestic use, as opposed to for export.

    Remember that India is one of the worlds largest software producers. Trouble is nearly no finished products are made there currently, because Indian software companies have made much more money by doing contract work for foreign companies than for developing software for the domestic market, which is still fairly small.

    This move will increase the domestic Indian market quite a bit, and may help bring about a more solid Indian software industry, that doesn't put the entire emphasis on exporting contract work, and thus making them much less volatile to changes in the European and US markets.

  • It wasn't that stupid. There's very few mass marketed software applications developed in India. Especially because the low average wages and the low costs of living in India, combined with a pretty decent technological level means that they have a fair share of well qualified programmers that are available at an extremely low cost. The result is that contract work is a lot more attractive for a software company in India than one in the US or Europe.
  • considering that the US employs the greatest percentage of Indian workers abroad, for use in the tech industry, this is not a necessarilly smart move for the Indian government, as it may come right back into their faces.
  • i'm not siding either way...all i am stating is the facts. india has great technological skills and dedication, but the fact is, there aren't many powerful indian companies around. most of the technological workforce is employed by the US and Japan.
  • How about software made in Finland *wink*

Honesty pays, but it doesn't seem to pay enough to suit some people. -- F.M. Hubbard