UK Government Solicits Advice On Open Source 242
Imran Ghory writes: "The UK government has put out a consultation paper on the use of open source software in government,background research into OSS commisioned by the government is also available, including a comparision of OSS office suites." Check out the formats in which the document is available.
Okay... (Score:2, Offtopic)
Re:Okay... (Score:2, Insightful)
PDF is well understood but PDF now has form input widgets and scripting.
There isn't an open source viewer that can render these.
And using a subset that may be viewed by open source software is the same as using an old version of MS Word '97.
These are not open formats. This government is ignorant of open source - but then I believe that's the point.
Insightful or useless banter? (Score:2, Interesting)
I invite you to surf to Adobe [adobe.com]'s site. There is a free (as in no money involved) program available called "Acrobat Reader," which will allow you to read the file quite simply. It's available for every version of Windows, Mac, Linux, a slew of Unices, and even PalmOS. Now please explain your preoccupation with whether it is not open source or not.
Does it really matter? PDF is a copyrighted format (i.e., Adobe owns it). Releasing the source code to it would be absurd --- Acrobat is theirs, why should they not capalitize on it? Capitalism is the foundation on which the American economy is built. Remember our friend Dimitry? He was arrested because he violated that copyright for another Adobe software. Rights are treasured in American society... if we treasure our rights for the ability MP3s (ones we rip from discs we legitimately own, of course), etc... why should Adobe be denied that same right for their own software?
Are you saying that they should be forced to release all their documents in TXT format just because some poor slob can use /usr/local/bin/pico to view it? PDF is an Internet (dare I say industry) standard nowadays.
Should you choose to protest the PDF format, my friend, you can choose to do so. However, the fact that Adobe hasn't placed their company secrets (read: treasured source code) on the dinner table, is hardly a legitimate reason to release useless whining bullshit about Acrobat not being open source.
Grow up. Closed source software sells because it's a valuable, solid product. Otherwise, no one would buy it.
Re:Insightful or useless banter? (Score:1)
That's all he was saying, it just defeats the whole paper's purpose, ya know?
Re:Insightful or useless banter? (Score:1)
It's just ironic, that's all.
Re:Insightful or useless banter? (Score:2)
That's all he was saying, it just defeats the whole paper's purpose, ya know?
It is a pity that folk don't take the time to read the articles referenced. The paper makes it very clear that they are do not see Open source being viable on the desktop fot 2 to 3 years minimum.
Nor is the paper written to solicit the praise and adulation of the Open Source community, that is not the constituency the authors serve. The report is written for IT managers in the UK civil service and for the companies that support them.
Re:Insightful or useless banter? (Score:3, Insightful)
Care to expand on how PDF isn't an open format? It's fully documented by Adobe in the book "PDF Reference" [aw.com] (ISBN: 0201615886 for the current 1.3 version, or 0201758393 for the soon to be released 1.4 version). It's also available online in various places, for example, http://wotsit.org [wotsit.org]. Furthermore, several independent implementations of PDF encoders and viewers exist, such as xpdf [foolabs.com] and ghostscript [ghostscript.com]. Yes, many PDFs include LZW compressed data, but that's a problem with Unisys, not Adobe, and there are non-patent-infringing ways of uncompressing the data anyway. Plus, modern PDFs are compressed with the patent-free deflate algorithm. So exactly how more open do you want PDF to be?
Re:Insightful or useless banter? (Score:2)
Re:Insightful or useless banter? (Score:1)
HTML would do, most people would be more interested in reading it first.
Your troll would've been better without the supercilious tones too.
Re:Insightful or useless banter? (Score:1)
PDF and DOC offer pagination features not available in HTML, nor XML. It's obviously a nicely formatted document... probably something that's available in a paper format somewhere in the depths of the British government.
They want to keep the exact same layout as found in the British government. They can also customize headers and footers, anything basically, through the use of PDF.
Just because you think that "HTML would do" doesn't necessarily reflect the intent of the authors of the original document.
Re:Insightful or useless banter? (Score:1)
I think you have just made the original poster's point.
PDF is a copyrighted format, as is DOC - because of this, they are not the best formats to be discussing open systems in - they are copyright and not open.
QED.
Re:Insightful or useless banter? (Score:2)
Actually, strictly speaking, it sells because it is perceived to be a valuable, solid product. People stick with it in part because they see few viable alternatives. The Brit initiative is exploring those alternatives. Don't you see, just a smidge, the irony that they publish their survey in closed formats only?
Re:Insightful or useless banter? (Score:1)
People going off over the merits of
Nevertheless, a simple link to a text or html page probably would have stopped the debate in the first place.
I think that "as well as" is the phrase people are looking for here.
/Mef.
Whole sub thread is a bit predictable (Score:2)
So let me get this straight. The UK government takes a genuine step toward investigating Open Source, and the best /. can do is carp on their publishing formats? And we wonder why the Open Source community is treated with contempt or disdain by so many professional/government outfits...
You might try actually reading the article before you make such comments. It wasn't an RFC, it was a detailed, objective and well thought-out analysis of the state of OSS today, and its potential uses within UK government. Its most significant conclusions seem to be that there is potential there for some applications, but it isn't viable yet, and for other applications, there's no particular likelihood that it will become so.
Moving on, I find it strange that so many people here seem to feel that because this discusses OSS, it should be published in an "open" format, and that PDF format is not open. Now, first up, PDF is about as open as you can be without going to absurdly low levels. There is at least one good, free reader available for all major platforms, and the specification is published by Adobe, as has been detailed elsewhere in this thread.
Furthermore, given the target audience for the paper, using an "open" format is pretty irrelevant anyway. They have no obligation whatsoever to spend large amounts of effort converting it to a format for the 0.01% of people out there who can't already read Acrobat format because they use very unusual systems. If you don't like it, switch to a better system, and quit complaining. Your whole argument supports another of the major conclusions in the paper: the OSS world isn't yet compatible enough with the rest of the world to be practical as a routine alternative.
And yes, Acrobat format is a standard used for publication, because it's popular, reliable, effective and useful. That is currently more than can be said for any of the alternatives being proposed on this thread (ASCII and HTML variants aren't anywhere near up to rendering that document accurately, and XSL:FO is a technology that won't be widely used for several years). In that context, the UK government (and many others who publish papers on-line) have adopted PDF format as a de-facto standard, and as far as I can see, no-one has yet suggested a better idea.
Oooooops -- sorry! (Score:2)
I wrote:
Sorry; I screwed up big-time there. I read both documents about half an hour before posting that and had forgotten about the original RFC by the time I'd read through the background and the rest of this thread. The swipe quoted above about reading the article was out of line. My apologies.
Re:Insightful or useless banter? (Score:2)
Are you saying that they should be forced to release all their documents in TXT format just because some poor slob can use
"
Should the government produce documents in order for them to look pretty or should they be produced to convey information to the largest number of citizens possible.
The government should be producing it's electronic documents in a simple to parse format that works with braille displays, text->speech convertors and similar. It should be readable by completely free software or the government should provide software to read the documents. It governs blind people, deaf people and people who don't own Microsoft Word, all of these people have an equal say in how the country is run.
Using very non-standard systems (Score:2)
Bah. Like it or not, .pdf is an industry standard. If you want to play with non-standard setups, you have to accept the price, which is that you won't be able to do everything the standard-conforming people can. This is your problem, not theirs.
Do you also think the government should publish this paper translated for Chinese and Indian audiences? There are millions more of them out there who can't read it than there are people using the systems you mention. But the simple fact is that they are not the target audience, so there's no reason for someone to spend large amounts of effort catering to them.
Sad, but true (Score:2)
Yes, I'm afraid that's true. It always has been, and it probably always will be. If you try to break away from contemporary standards, you will face an uphill battle; such is the price you pay for being on the leading edge. There is a reason most people stick to standards, and this thread is a prime example of it. (And yes, it does mean that technologies with potential can get left behind, but if they aren't compatible with the rest of the world, that's the risk they run.)
Re:Okay... (Score:3, Interesting)
There isn't an open source viewer that can render these.
Though you intended your post as a knock on the British government, your post stands as a stronger indictment of open source. If open source can't provide people with a viewer that can render one of the world's most widely used formats, then there is something seriously wrong with the blind faith that the open source world is going to provide the tools that everyone else needs to work.
Re:Okay... (Score:1)
Besides, give it time and there will be an open solution, it just takes time to break down the barriers that stand in the way of a free solution.
Re:Okay... (Score:2)
PDF is a proprietary format. Everytime an Open Source viewer appears which can render all of current generation PDF, Adobe can (and will) move the goalposts again. There are perfectly good open standards (e.g. HTML) for representing online forms, and there are perfectly good Open Source viewers for those formats.
Re:Okay... (Score:2)
xpdf -- generic
KDE PS/PDF Viewer -- KDE specific
The KDE version has a bit nicer an interface, but xpdf seems to be able to view some docs that the KDE version can't.
But they both produce gibberish when trying to print. Would be nice to print PDFs from Linux.
Re:Okay... (Score:2)
It's so popular yet is only one reader implementation that people use? I can't think of any PDF implementations in the non-Open Source world besides Adobe's offerings. Hence I would argue that the problem exists in both Open Source and non-Open Source offerings, which in turn leads me to speculate that PDF is not a great format (else there would likely be more implementations!).
Why do we need more implementations? (Score:2)
That doesn't follow at all. If one implementation is good enough, there is no need for a competitor. Acrobat Reader is free, perfectly good enough for what it does, produced by the people who define the Acrobat format, and has no glaring missing features. What would be the point in producing a "competitor"?
Another FUD alert (Score:2)
Rubbish. The PDF format is well documented by Adobe and the information is publicly available. The details have even been posted in this thread. Non-Adobe software that both renders and creates PDF documents is available, too. I can't see how your quoted statement above could be more wrong.
Re:Okay... (Score:1)
That puts it at about the same level of openness as Java, but even more important, there are no alternatives that even have a smidge of mindshare - your only real alternative is plain old text...
Re:Okay... (Score:3, Insightful)
Or, um, how about HTML? Which is, after all, the wrapper for the thing anyway...
Re:Okay... (Score:2)
PDF may well be a documented standard, but there are still problems implementing it. Remember the 'no restrictive patents' clause in the GPL?
Sure, PDF is better than Word, but it still isn't ideal.
Re:Okay... (Score:2)
If laws in your country prevent you from freely viewing this report, made available in the UK, then perhaps you should petition your government to change those laws.
(The above notwithstanding, I think HTML would have been an appropriate presentation format)
Re:Okay... (Score:1)
Yes, but is Star Office saving in word format?
Michael
Re:Okay... (Score:1)
Does he suggest a good open doc standard?
Does he suggest a way in which the UK can quickly move away from doc or pdf and still service the tax payers?
Does he add a witty insight?
Does he add anything at all?
In short Timmy couldn't keep his big mouth shut and just post an intersting story, he had to add some meaningless troll.
One of the many reasons editors should not add comments to the posted stories they should have to post messages like the rest of us.
Re:Okay... (Score:1)
I believe the point is supposed to be that a document about OSS is only available in 2 closed formats. It's called irony.
Re:Okay... (Score:1)
So that leaves Adobe Acrobat. Let's revisit the big issues against the company first:
- Dimitry Skylarov [boycottadobe.com]
- Killustrator [slashdot.org]
Now lets remind ourselves of the biggest caveat they have against open source pdf compatible filters:
- PDF saving [slashdot.org]
Does that explain why the formats aren't acceptable?
If not, lets put it clear, in terms that don't even require open source thinking: When you are presenting prettied up plain text (like those documents) then use a format desgined for the purpose -- HTML comes to mind. Distributing plain text in word and pdf shows you aren't "up" on even the slightest technical issues. It's simply the wrong tool for the job.
Re:Okay... (Score:2)
Re:Okay... (Score:2, Insightful)
From what I saw, there's no graphics (just plain text).
>and those files will have to be kept together
Operating systems not related to CP/M offer subdirectories for this.
>or you can only view it on-line or it's some proprietary format
It isn't viewing online when you have to download the entire file first before you can view it. Word isn't online, and PDF barely manages to be online, but both are pathetic compared to HTML.
>Let's also assume they would not have used HTML coming out of FrontPage or even Word, nothing being "optimized" for one browser or the other.
Any "optimized" HTML becomes an IE document, Netscape document, whatever. It isn't proper HTML if it can't pass the W3C verifier (yep, slashdot doesn't use proper HTML either).
>We also know that it will look different on every browser there is...
Yup, it would look different on each browser. What's the problem with that? It would also look different when it is printed in different countries! There's no way I could print the british document they way they want me to because in North America (my homeland) we don't use metric paper so I'd have to ruin their "looks the same no matter where you print it" idea anyways.
If you use a page size specific format like word and pdf, you can easily be screwed by page size (same with postscript). HTML formats quite nicely on paper, TYVM. If it doesn't, well, perhaps you aren't using a decent HTML engine? Just a thought...
>if it displays at all.
If it doesn't either your browser is broken or you aren't creating HTML.
With PDF you have to download a 5 MB viewer every year so you can "keep up" with every new version of PDF released. With plain text HTML I can still use mosaic to view files. Now that's backward compatibility that's hard to beat.
FUD alert (Score:2)
Bull. I have a current version of Acrobat on every machine I use at home and at work, and I don't think I've ever downloaded a 5MB install. I certainly haven't done it once a year for every machine where I use it. For a start, the current version is on the cover disk of almost every PC magazine I've ever bought.
Only because you can't read... (Score:2)
No, I didn't. I did not refer to "PC Magazine", which I assume is a specific publication where you are. I referred to "every PC magazine" (note the lowercase m), which in my case covers at least five or six publications over the past couple of years, from a variety of publishers. Pretty much every cover disk I've seen in that time had the latest version of Acrobat Reader on it.
Re:Oh please! (Score:2)
I'm sorry, but you did seem to interpret "PC magazine" (generic term) as "PC Magazine" (specific publication), and then proceed to have a go on that basis. Given that your original premise was wrong, your argument was somewhat flawed.
I accept your point that not all PC magazines come with CDs, but I was simply showing that for many people, the much-maligned 5MB download is not actually necessary at all.
Re:Okay... (Score:2)
The research paper has the logo of the company who did it (that looks like plain text at first view), and the consultation paper has those of UK Online and the Cabinet Office.
> Operating systems not related to CP/M offer subdirectories for this. :)
Which are not one file. This means added complication for a distribution format for this. What will it be, tar.gz, WIN.ZIP or sit.hqx?
> It isn't viewing online when you have to download the entire file first before you can view it.
Thanks for completely missing my point. I was talking about HTML files that can only be viewed online, because the images are on a remote server. I'm not even going to mention the security problems linked to that.
> Yup, it would look different on each browser. What's the problem with that?
Well, if you don't realize what the problem is here (same with "optimized" pages), you are obviously not the right person to argue about this matter. Almost anything that can't be done in plain text can also not been done in HTML. HTML is simply not a substitute for most things PDF is used for - the rest can just as well be done in plain text.
Re:Okay... (Score:2)
Riiight. Sklyarov seems to have been a victim of a particularly naff US law. Adobe were involved, but equally, they are entitled in your country to enforce the rights granted to them under your laws. The problem you have is the DMCA, not Adobe.
As for the Killustrator fiasco, as far as I can see, Adobe were perfectly entitled to defend their use of the name Illustrator against a blatant rip-off. I didn't think the Killustrator people had a legal or moral leg to stand on then, and I don't now, either.
They provide a mechanism that aims to prevent people using their technology from being ripped off. I don't blame them. You look at things like Napster, which champion freedom, and the consequent blatant ripping off that happens (and the crappy arguments the thieves doing it make to "justify" their actions).
Now look at the good points: Acrobat format is widely accessible, reliable and good at what it does. If you think HTML is the right tool for distributing large, formatted articles like that on the web, then you are the one who isn't even slightly up on the technical issues. Go learn about web usability, the impact of publishing long documents using HTML, the serious limitations an HTML model presents to even half-decent formatting, and get back to us when you've entered the new millenium.
Ha ha ha (Score:2)
Ambiguous statements. Fair use. UK law. You. Have. No. Case. So sue me.
I'm sorry, but that is completely and utterly irrelevant. Acrobat is widely accessible, simply because the vast majority of people who want to read it can do so. You can use any other metric you like, but that doesn't change the fact that everyone I know, from my co-workers to my parents, can read an Acrobat file trivially. And that includes people running PCs, Macs and Linux.
Of course it's targetted at printing; that's what most people are going to do with it. Very few people read long documents on-line.
HTML is little more than a poor cousin to a man page. It is a bastardised mark-up language, based on ill-planned roots, that's grown beyond its usable potential. XML is a vastly superior approach for genuine mark-up of structured data. PDF, PostScript, and newer technologies like XSL:FO are better choices for representing formatted documents. HTML is stuck somewhere in the middle, carried along only by momentum, as it has been for several years now.
Re:Ha ha ha (Score:2)
Well, any comments you write are automatically copyright by you under many countries' law anyway, copyright statement or not. However, copyright does not normally confer total control over your material. In particular, most countries' copyright laws allow "fair use" or some similar concept, so that (for example) critics can quote parts of a book or excerpts from a film they are reviewing. If you've put comments on /., where quoting in a reply is commonplace, I suspect that such would be regarded as fair use. So there. Humph. :-)
Um... Would that be the document you just downloaded from a UK government web site? :-)
HTML is based on SGML, but also based on what, with hindsight, turned out to be a fatal flaw: it mixes structure mark-up with formatting mark-up. Note the presence of both <B> and <I> tags showing absolute formatting, and also <STRONG> and <EM> tags showing structured mark-up, for example. As a result, while HTML served its purpose admirably when it was first created, the whole foundation on which it rests is now very tired.
So, in discussing whether or not to use open source software, including several business applications that routinely use binary formats, you think it's important to use nothing but plain or minimally decorated text? I think that's taking things a bit far.
Re:Ha ha ha (Score:2)
I think that's the big problem here. Backward compatibility is unquestionably important, and too easily forgotten by many. OTOH, trying to keep too much of it has held up far too many things in the IT industry today. Examples range from the standard e-mail format still not supporting formatting to the syntax of C++ and Java still looking like C. Each of these was an advantage to begin with, but now they just hold things up.
By the same token, I personally feel it would be better for the industry to adopt standards (de-facto or otherwise) for the distribution of formatted documents. In this case, PostScript and PDF formats are pretty much the standards for publishing papers on-line, as anyone who's worked in academic research can testify. It would make more sense to focus effort on supporting these standards anywhere they are helpful than it would to insist on keeping everything absurdly primitive, IMHO.
Then again, as soon as they tried to close off the standard, people would stop using it. They can't take away the currently published PDF standard, nor the free readers available already. And besides all of that, whatever you may think of Adobe, it's in their commercial interests not to screw the world anyway. They can only sell Acrobat-format output as long as the result is widely readable, via Acrobat Reader or otherwise. If they took that away, the value in their product would disappear with it.
I had no problem with either format in Linux x86. (Score:2)
It took a little work to get acroread to work properly - 15min - but now it's working great. I prefer PDFs. heh
At any rate, it looks like the UK is going to save alot of Pounds and get great software to boot.
Re:Okay... (Score:2)
None of my computers have software that can read Word's format.
I can read PDF, but it's cumbersome. I only have a couple of programs that can read PDF, and they are big and slow and have limited functionality.
OTOH, I have hundreds (thousands?) of programs that can read plain text, search it, etc. And I can do it on any computer. Even Windows users can do it.
I also have a buttload of programs that can read HTML, and can even use the aforementioned text programs since HTML is usually pretty human-readable.
When you look at it that way, if the content is just text, using proprietary formats seems completely gratuitous and also a just plain Bad Idea. It seems to be to be the same as if I gave you a document encoded in EBCDIC (it's an industry standard) and told you where to get a program to convert it to ASCII so that you could read it. That would be silly, wouldn't it?
NSA Linux in The UK? (Score:2)
Proprietary services (Score:2)
In other words: Is Passport proprietary, just because its MS? I have heard that, for example, I can write my own "plugin" services for
Sounds like they need to neaten up thier terms, else their whole policy becomes -1, Flamebait.
Re:Proprietary services (Score:2)
If an interface is published, it's an open interface.
If the interface is copyright (etc.), then it's a proprietary interface.
If the interface is public domain, then it's non-proprietary.
Usage in the Linux community favors the interpretation that if the license permits the interface to be used without (significant) restriction (save, perhaps, that if you change it significantly then you must change the name, etc. [see the list of open source licenses]) then it is legitimate to call it open-non-proprietary, but this isn't strictly accurate. That's why there are all of the agruments about GPL vs. LGPL. An interface licensed a LGPL would be public and non-proprietary by any reasonable test. It's less clear that the same could be said about GPL, but it is a reasonable contention. But in either case, it's not accurate. The interface would actually be owned by someone, or some group. So it's more accurate to characterise it by the license under which it is available.
.
You know (Score:1)
tell you all about open source.
Just make sure you clap thrice, and shreik "DMCA"
in order to shut him up.
The question (Score:1, Offtopic)
But on a more cheerful note, this is a gr8 move by the UK government and i hope that it will prove to be an example that other governments will follow, but i wont keep my fingers crossed here in Australia where the current government seems to have its head in the sand.
HAPPY NEW YEAR!
Re:The question (Score:1)
Sorry,
This is a Red Herring (Score:5, Funny)
As it stands, they didn't. Babbage went to his grave as a failure despite his pleas for funding, and now the British Government playing second fiddle to some skinny rich geek in Seattle.
Some say that government ownership would have stifled innovation. Maybe there would have been little progress beyond Babbage's designs. Whiners would argue that computers would be saddled with compatibility constraints like the government regulated telephone system (which to this day remains compatible with 19th century handsets).
But so what? What would any true geek prefer to have: (A) a gleaming, multi-ton steam powered machine sporting thousands of shiny steel gears, or (B) a stupid beige box cowering under their desk? The answer is obviously A.
The economics of scale has been directed at the wrong target. Any nerd can easily afford lots of the ugly plastic boxes we call computers, but today even a version 1 Difference Engine would be beyond most people's means. It didn't have to turn out like this. It's a shame, because just like a fine car, chix dig that kind of hardware. (Ada Lovelace, for example. Not bad.) Chix cannot relate to tiny silicon gadgets. I had to expend a lot of extra effort courting my wife using my wits and personality because my computers meant nothing to her.
I place the blame for the current sorry state of affairs in computing technology squarely on the British government's shortsightedness. Right now, they are just trying to deflect attention from the fact that they dropped the ball.
"Chix cannot relate to.... (Score:1)
Hrm, the last time I check my ex couldn't get enough of here tiny silicon gadgets. At least I think they're silicon.
Re:This is a Red Herring (Score:2)
Twaddle. Babbage recieved tens of thousands of pounds for his research. In fact he was one of the first ever recipients of government research funding. Babbage failled to deliver because he fell into tinkering and continual upgrades rather than delivering a working product.
Disraeli and Gladstone were both major supporters of Babbage and pretty much understood the implications of what they were funding as well as Babbage.
Get a grip... (Score:1)
If Babbage had offered the Pru or Norwich Union an accurate way of accessing Insurance risk, he would be alive today :-)
The truth is, we developed Colossus, a real computer, and shared our secrets with the Yanks. At the end of the war, we kept our secrets secret, while the yanks sold out for cash. They sold our secrets with theirs, to IBM, Sperry, Univac, Burroughs, etc, and leaked them via MIT to DEC (MIT Whirlwind later became PDP8).
We had a computer industry, but thanks to the marvel of government intervention (Harold Wilson's "White Hot Technological Revolution" & Thatchers "We don't need manufactirubng, we can pay the rent by washing our own dishes") our computer industry was trashed.
Briain's computer industry lives (staggers) on we probably make more PCs than anyone else apart from taiwan, and don't forget Arm is British. And all the RF parts of your mobile phone were probably designed in the UK, or by British Engineers on contract overseas.
Sure Britain doesn't own much, but thats because of our tax laws. Ownership is punishable by horrendous levels of tax.
Standards don't matter (Score:2, Troll)
A company wants a program that draws a triangle. Microsoft(tm) Triangle(tm) draws a triangle. You can specify what color you want it to be.
An open source program draws a triangle. In addition to allowing you to choose the color, you can specify whether or not it's a right triangle, and if not, the various degrees.
Company purchaser looks at options and says "Well, the open source one is way better, but who knows if they'll be around in a year or two. Hell, let's go with the company we know will be there."
The root of all evil is accountability. With the Microsoft(tm) product, there will be a corporate entity to blame for any problems. With the open-source solutions, there's no guarantee that the producer will exist in the future.
So they'll always choose the Microsoft(tm) option. That's just the way it is in the real business world. Even if there's no possibility of recovering losses from the vendor, at least there will always (?) be that vendor to blame/approach. And in the off (heh) chance that there are others with the same problems, the likelihood of finding a solution will be greater.
Look at the computer predecessor, the typewriter. Sure, there have always been cheaper, and probably better-feature-laden typewriters, but the IBM sold so well because the suits always knew there would always be a big corporation behind them.
Point being... there's no way open-source will work until there's an established set of software requirement standards. We should require that software meet standards prior to being allowed in the marketplace. Unfortunately, there is no such requirement. Hence, we have what we have.
Re:Standards don't matter (Score:1)
Not this again. (Score:5, Insightful)
The idea of a CEO or a CIO commiting shareholders money to sue MS because of a defect in one of their software is just too funny. It has never been done and it will never happen.
Please people this kind of fud is old hat and stupid. Think of new ones.
Re:Not this again. (Score:2)
Contrast with Linux. If you call Red Hat about Sendmail, for example, they can only go so far before they say, "Well, you'll have to call sendmail, Inc. This is a bug in their app." Oh no, there's a problem with Evolution; now I have to call Ximian. And so on. Although it is my personal opinion that 98% of Unix/Linux problems you'd call about are wacky configuration issues and honest bugs. Those happen a lot, but not in the "stable" versions of apps. Who knows, the same might be true with WIndows. Anyway, a company like Red Hat is hindered because they provide integration of the apps, but not support on the apps themselves. Although I belive one of the jobs of Alan Cox is to provide a "strike force" for kernel fixes, should someone call about it.
Lastly: look at the suing of MS like this. It might happen, in the current climate, if there was a highly publicised failure of an MS product; for example a security breach that led to something bad. The shareholders might actually say, "Look, we demand renumeration, because our stock took a nosedive after it was discovered that the default SQL Server password was left blank, which MS allows, and someone burned our customers badly w/ stolen CCs!" (pick your own compromise; yes, the blank password thing is the admins fault and not MS's, just dream something up, OK?) It isn't too likely - the press is too MS friendly (and MS too adept at manipulating it), but anything is possible.
Re:Not this again. (Score:1)
Contrast with Linux. If you call Red Hat about Sendmail, for example, they can only go so far before they say, "Well, you'll have to call sendmail, Inc. This is a bug in their app."
If you think this is what RedHat will do, you are seriously misinformed about their support. In fact, RedHat is as much a consulting/services firm as a Linux distributor. Since sendmail is OpenSource, they can actually fix real bugs (as opposed to configuration problems) in the software.
But wait a minute, you can also go to Sendmail Inc. for support, so you have more full support options than with Microsoft. Not only that, but you can get real fixes for real problems because you can fix them at source level!
Re:Not this again. (Score:4, Insightful)
But try something different, and the pressure is on you to make it work. If something goes wrong, it's your fault no matter what. The first thing some people will ask is why you didn't use a MS product. The people who don't like you or your ideas to begin with will come out of the woodwork to lay blame. I've run across this situation many times. If you stick with the status quo, no one will bother you. But if you try to change things, even if it's a good idea, you face an uphill battle. Most people just can't afford to risk their financial security on some type of change. It's an unfortunate reality of the workplace, and if you haven't encountered it, you will. It's a real barrier to innovation.
Re:Not this again. (Score:2)
Usually companies aren't sued over the quality of a product. Although I seem to recall Oracle might have been for their app suite.
But there is accountability when money is exchanging hands, because look I'm not going to pay you this $1 mil until you can come in here and get your stupid software working right.
It's that market conversation thing that the cluetrain manifesto talks about. It's something that is missing from the open source model.
Re:Not this again. (Score:2)
No there is not. Not once has MS ever been held accountable for any defective software. Hasn't happened yet and never will. In your example some third party consulting firm is likely to be target of that exchange. MS sells licenses there is no "come in there and get your stupid software working right" in their world.
If you know of one example please let me in on it.
Re:Not this again. (Score:3, Insightful)
Senior execs feel that they can trust MS, a large corporate entity that has a proven track record of success.
It's those perceptions that we must change.
Re:Not this again. (Score:2)
A CIO of a non IT-centric company is going to be very reluctant to go with software supported by volunteers and enthusiasts. In the case of Linux - the fact that commercial support (especially support by a large Fortune 500 company) is available will go a long way towards making CIO's take a serious look at OSS.
Re:Not this again. (Score:2)
Re:Standards don't matter, you're wrong (Score:1)
So they'll always choose the Microsoft(tm) option. That's just the way it is in the real business world. Even if there's no possibility of recovering losses from the vendor, at least there will always (?) be that vendor to blame/approach. And in the off (heh) chance that there are others with the same problems, the likelihood of finding a solution will be greater.
But that just not how it works (in certain cases):
Apache ~ 60%, Microsoft ~ 30% [netcraft.com]
Re:Standards don't matter (Score:2)
Company purchaser looks at options and says "Well, the open source one is way better, but who knows if they'll be around in a year or two. Hell, let's go with the company we know will be there."
When a closed source software company goes under, the source code is lost forever and that program will likely never be developed on again. But when an open-source developer abandons a project, anyone can pick it up. If noone does, you can just hire someone to.
Govtalk, OSS et al (Score:5, Informative)
Its more than easy to diss Govtalk for its many failings - such as the failure to embrace text and RTF when it has the opportunity; hotchingly bad HTML [w3.org] on the website, &c.
But there's a great deal of good going on, too; not least the RFC process of which this consultation is a part; and the strong support for XML in the eGovernment Interoperability framework [govtalk.gov.uk] (itself a coherent position statement).
As food for further debate, here are the main recommendations under which the current consultation was predicated:
1. OSS is indeed the start of a fundamental change in the software infrastructure marketplace, and is not a hype bubble that will burst.
2. Within five years, 50% of the volume of the software infrastructure market could be taken by OSS.
3. OSS's position in large servers (e.g. those managing massive multi-user databases), such as those that underpin many large Government procurements, will grow from its current position of near zero penetration, to a position where OSS is a viable option, within 2 - 3 years.
4. Within the developed world, we as yet see no sign that OSS will become a viable alternative to Microsoft Windows, for user's (general purpose) desktop machines in the corporate or home PC markets. However, OSS on the desktop may soon become a significant player in the developing world. For these reasons we recommend against any preference for OSS on the desktop, but also recommend that this issue be reassessed by the end of 2002, by which time early trials of the use of OSS desktops may have generated sufficient evidence to warrant a reassessment.
5. We see no benefit that the Government would gain from expressing a general preference for OSS within server infrastructures.
6. The Government could clarify its position as to whether there are circumstances in which Microsoft products are to be preferred.
7. The Government could consider publishing policy as to how the risk of lock-in to proprietary protocols is to be managed.
8. As yet it is not possible to predict that OSS will make a major contribution to the software applications market.
9. Many of the Government's risks that arise from over-dependence on proprietary protocols and data formats for interoperability can be controlled by the selective use of open data standards.
10. The existence of an OSS reference implementation of a data standard has often accelerated the adoption of such standards, and we recommend that the Government consider selective sponsorship of OSS reference implementations.
11. The rise of OSS, offers the possibility that non-US players will find it easier to influence the future direction of IT infrastructure technology.
12. The Government should consider using OSS as the default exploitation route for UK Government funded software.
13. The differences between OSS and proprietary software are not a major factor in either improving or degrading the vulnerability of a nation's IT infrastructure.
14. We recommend that the Government obtain full rights to bespoke software that it procures - this includes any customisation of off-the-shelf software packages.
15. The Open Source model offers a new paradigm for funding software in communities-of-interest (e.g. Health and Education). The Government could consider running pilot projects to test the viability of the OSS approach to such software.
16. We recommend that the Medical Records data standard be examined by appropriate domain experts for possible inclusion in the e-GIF.
W3C Re:Govtalk, OSS et al (Score:2)
The W3C tools can't tell the difference between what is mark up language and what it marks up, regarding URLs. But most browsers can (if not all).
DOC and PDF are real-world standards. So what? (Score:5, Insightful)
And more to the point, why should we expect someone presenting an open-source alternative to a predominantly Windows-based audience to present it in non-Windows formats? Are we really that zealous, that we expect organizations to convert completely to open-source alternatives before they can even mention Linux on their website? And didn't we just cover this subject [linuxplanet.com]?
I grew up in the rural South, and I remember folk who considered it acceptable to use racial slurs when in a whites-only group, because it was safe to assume that most everyone would agree, and those that didn't would remain silent. Thankfully, times have changed—now I have to read Slashdot to find that kind of intolerance.
If we're going to act like a bunch of militant fundamentalists, I think I might just sit this year out. Please wake me when the zealots stop screaming in the hallway.
Re:DOC and PDF are real-world standards. So what? (Score:2)
Re:DOC and PDF are real-world standards. So what? (Score:2)
Re:You think 'Standard' one of the Platonic Ideals (Score:2)
Proprietary API's are not standards, and neither are proprietary file specs. Sorry. They just aren't. They are API's (or file specs). And they do cause random amounts of confusion. And that's part of why they aren't standards.
If Adobe could at will change the specs of the
Microsoft uses several different Word formats, and gives the
.
Re:.DOC is the standard (Score:2)
"Yes, bow down to the status quo. You are not worthy of the knowing the secret inner workings of the holy .doc format, yet you must be compatible to have a chance. Too bad for you, you peon. Muahahahah!"
Who the fuck are you anyway, Bill Gates? Or do you just get to lick his ass clean after every crap?
An HTML solution for PDF-haters (Score:2, Informative)
http://access.adobe.com/simple_form.html [adobe.com]
will automagically translate any PDF document into HTML. It uses a perl engine, too! :)
They don't want the idiot ideology (Score:2)
So far we have seen a futile debate about open source document formats. Get it into your head, these guys are not looking to go the hair shirt, I shall not use closed source software route.
The real issue is whether HMG should start adopting procurement guidelines that require the code they have written for them to be made available as open source. In some cases this would be a very bad idea, in others very good.
The issue for the UK is that they can have a much bigger influence on the development of OSS than they can on the development of Windows.
Re:They don't want the idiot ideology (Score:1)
It is absolututely essential that we don't take a decision.
If we decide to join the Euro, the pound will crash, because all those fund managers in the Euro zone who hedge their risk by putting some investment in the UK will have to take it elsewhere.
If we decide NOT to join the Euro the pound will crash, because all those far eastern and US companies that set up in the UK to be inside Europe will go to Spain (for Cheapness) or Germany (for Skill)
By not being in the Euro, we allow the banks to tax us 4% on everything we import (our food) and 4% on everything we export to pay for our imports. Ie keeping the pound means we are taxed 8% by the banks, on top of the 17 1/2% by the govt.
Its a dead cert that we will all be using the Euro in ten years, just to evade tax. All large companies are reuired to be able to accept and make payments in Euros anyway. Anyone with 1/2 a brain cell will be asking for his pay to be in Euros next year, so he can take out a Euro mortgage in place of a sterling one with no risk (cos a Euro Mortgage is half the price of a sterling one)
The "Keep the pound" campaign is funded by UK banks for the above reasons.
This posting is almost on topic, since the original topic did mention the British government "Scums that they are" (Rab C Nesbitt).
Re:They don't want the idiot ideology (Score:1)
Re:They don't want the idiot ideology (Score:2)
My statement that the Tories are crucifying their party on the cross of the Euro was based on personal observation. I doubt that your opinion is based on the same degree of interaction with the participants in that particular farce.
The dispute in the Conservative party over the Euro has no connection to economic or political sense. The real conflict is between the faction wanting to leave the EU and those wanting to stay in. That in turn has its roots in the various faction fights between the no turning back group, the one nation and the rump libertarian faction. The fracas over Europe is itself an attempt to refight the Anglo Irish agreement dispute.
The dispute over the Euro is ridiculous because as an economic and political issue it has only middling significance at best. Still the Tory party managed to destroy themselves over the corn laws so their current Euro-obsession is simply being true to their origins.
As for being taxed 4% by the banks, your opinions appear to be devoid of any connection to reality. Exchange commissions are nowhere near that high. Regardless of whether the UK is in or out of the Euro it is inevitable that most major scale commercial contracts will eventually be priced in Euros if they are not in dollars.
Site is on ISS (Score:1)
Blair's Love affair with Microsoft (Score:2, Interesting)
During the last election campaign Blair paid a visit to Gates, who was in the UK promoting XP. It was very hard to see who was exploiting who for their own purposes.
Although this is a significant bit of consultation from within the government's paid service, there are much weightier reasons why we might end up with a government here which embraces free software - like Gates forgetting Blair's birthday or something. While govenment agencies require submissions to be in "industry standard" formats (i.e. Word or Excel documents) we've got an awfully long way to go.
Obligatory disclaimer - I'm a British Conservative, which influences my view on Blair's Britain a smidge.
Dunstan
Re:Blair's Love affair with Microsoft (Score:2)
I'd be genuinely interested to hear the British Conservative position on Free Software. Surely it was under Conservative stewardship that all the proprietary software was purchased by Queen Elizabeth's government? 8-P
- Derwen
Re:Blair's Love affair with Microsoft (Score:2)
Tom.
open-source and copyright length (Score:1)
Whilst it's good to see serious discussion of open-source benefits to UK govt, one wonders if a related discussion could take place to explore the benefits to the UK economy of reducing the lengthy 125-year term of govt copyright [hmso.gov.uk] which currently prevents open-source projects from using and adding to 100-year old Victorian map data produced by the Ordnance Survey [ordnancesurvey.co.uk]. The nearest open-source projects can get is ancient pre-125 year map data [old-maps.co.uk] which are quite interesting as historical data but are seriously deficient for mapping because they are missing large areas of development from the late 19th century. By contrast, in the US, it seems the USGS [usgs.gov] has a more favorable policy of open-sourcing their data. The result is open-source mapping projects and software that use and extend the USGS datasets, in many cases also leading to commercially successful products.
Interesting (Score:2, Insightful)
Of particular interest is the recommendation that if there is a value case, government departments should be free to go with Free Software (as opposed to being tied to software from "real companies"). This hard-headed value-for-money analysis the only way to check the political and marketing muscle of the software corps. The truth is that much of the corporately-developed software available offers very little additional value over the corresponding open source equivalent.
Banging the drum for Open Source is great, but it's when procurers say, "show me the added value or give me a discount", that people like Microsoft pay attention.
What about existing systems? (Score:2)
PostScript format for download / printing (Score:3, Informative)
I have saved the PDF of the report as PostScript with xpdf for printing or download here [fibrespeed.net] (100k).
http://www.fibrespeed.net/~mbabcock/mirrors/ukgo vt oss.ps (300k) for people who don't have compressed file support.
http://www.fibrespeed.net/~mbabcock/mirrors/ukgovt oss.html [fibrespeed.net] (170k) for HTML converted by Star Office from the MS Word document.
My Advice: Go Invisible (Score:4, Insightful)
Use common sense on the desktop - people can still use Windows and get the power of linux off the server - ssh client tools are available for secure access.
Don't try replacing Windows on the desktop...you will find that the vast majority of people aren't nearly as obsessed with monopoly politics as they are with using their favorite plugins.
Re:My Advice: Go Invisible (Score:2)
mp3.com, pressplay.com, cnn.com, getmusic.com, akamai, yahoo, what more are we waiting for?
Some quotes ...
Re:On a lesser scale, I am also investigating this (Score:2, Informative)
It is quite costly; however, if you can afford the liscensing costs, it is worth every damn penny.
Never write another shell script again. Just point, click, and bam!, you've just instituted a change in the tree!
Just make sure you run your DS Repairs frequently and keep the tree healthy, or else you're asking for trouble!
Re:Didn't they used to do it ? (Score:1)
When will people finally understand that you use a tool that works for you, and leave it at that? Their site evidently uses much legacy ASP code (which, I must say, is extremely powerful and fast) which the British Government seems to utilize quite successfully. Why rewrite it in a slower language such as Perl, just to use an open source OS? Remember, mod_perl doesn't spawn a new process, but runs in Apache's address space (unlike ASP; even so, if you ran an app in IIS address space, the server is intelligent enough to restart itself, using the provided Intelligent Monitoring feature).
The fact that the site runs on NT with IIS or Zeus on Solaris is irrelevant. Would you have so much of a problem with it if the site ran on Zeus? (Hint: Zeus is closed source; it also costs more than a copy of Win2k Server with IIS.) It seems to plague you quite deeply.
I can sense your sarcastic tone and implied snickers as you state "At least there's an W3C icon and the HTML seems pretty good." As if since the site is running IIS, the server will spontaneously combust into a gigantic fireball.
The site shows no sign of slashdotting, nor do I expect it to. I wonder if you can attribute that to IIS, hmm?
Re:Didn't they used to do it ? (Score:2)
Re:Didn't they used to do it ? (Score:1)
Also, are you excluding Slashdot readers from Asia and Australia?
I think that's a lame excuse (since you're contradicting it yourself anyway) you're providing to the Slashdot community.
Re:Didn't they used to do it ? (Score:2)
The story had 89 replies in 2.5 hours, half of them don't sound like the writers bothered to look at the page at all (let alone the document). I expect a government server to handle that kind of load. Last but not least - this story is not really a thrilling must-read. Outside of the UK only the most rabid Open Source advocates and Microsoft astroturfers will bother to read it. But if it makes you happy to think that IIS is the reason this isn't slashdoted yet ...
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Didn't they used to do it ? (Score:2)
#1 - Lack of bandwidth. Unless it's a corporate site, they're generally running off limited bandwidth, or on a host with bandwidth throttles.
#2 - Dynamic content poorly developed.
Any modern computer running a 300Mhz processor or better will saturate a T3 line on static content.
But if you use dynamic content, and you have not done any load testing, you can start hitting other limits of the hardware beyond bandwidth. If you really haven't done any testing at all, the whole system can fall down and go boom because of poor code, memory leaks, and so forth.
Re:Didn't they used to do it ? (Score:1, Offtopic)
Huh? ASP code? What, PerlScript? ASP isn't a language, numbnuts, so you can't exactly compare it to Perl. And I'd hesitate to call Perl a slow language (esp. mod_) when compared to, say, *snicker* Visual Basic. Nice try though. Stop talking out of your ass, and maybe we'll let you come back.
Re:Didn't they used to do it ? (Score:1)
(2) Visual Basic is first compiled into p-code (intermediate langauge). This is much faster because all of the text parsing is done prior to runtime.
As text parsing is the SLOWEST part of interpreted langugae, this is why ASP/VB offers a significant performance boost from CGI/Perl.
Re:Didn't they used to do it ? (Score:1)