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More Anime Washing Ashore In 2001 100

da3dAlus writes: "Gundam Wing has been pulled from the Toonami block on Cartoon Network, and the 4th season of DBZ is coming to an end--but that's not nearly the end of the anime hitting U.S. cable TV. CNX: Toonami Revolution has more word on series to premiere on Toonami within the next 4 months. These include Outlaw Star (which is supposed to air as early as January 15) and the original Mobile Suit Gundam (which is set to air in mid March). Among the possible future series are Cowboy Bebop, Magic Knights RayEarth, and Rurouni Kenshin. In the meantime, you can catch an encore presentation of Blue Submarine #6 on January 5, and take heart in knowing that CN has the rights to air the remaining DBZ episodes when they're ready."
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More Anime Washing Ashore in 2001

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  • by Anonymous Coward
    I wish I were liberal. Then the man could be keeping me down, instead of the weed and my zero-sum work ethic ;)
  • Many internet retailers sell DVDs for fairly low prices. I think the entire 6 DVD set of Cowboy BeBop can be had for $130 including shipping. used to be very good, and they are for in-stock items, just don't order out of stock items. seems to be stocking anime fairly well these days although I don't like their site engineering, quite bloated for modem use. There are a few others but they don't come to mind.
  • by Greyfox ( 87712 )
    More anime imported and butchered by American censors. I want my anime piped in straight from Japan. We could do that. We have the technology.
  • of course its possible. yanni anybody? :)
  • Although many anime series are animated better than their American counterparts, most are cheaply animated, simply drawn, and generally lesser quality animation.

    IMO, I don't think the frugality of some of the animation production houses necessarily makes their works poorly animated. That's part of the stylistic charm of a lot of shows. Although overly simplistic animation quality in a theatrically-released film can be intolerable, it's always interesting for me to see what Japanese animators are capable of doing with less cels, using less detail, in a TV series or (sometimes) OAV release. A lot of the most interesting frames you can capture from a Japanese series are the simply illustrated ones. (WB's Batman series was refreshing, because it followed a lot of the same principles. Contrast with the more-detailed "Sky Surfers" in syndication...not pretty.)

    You're dead-on in saying that they are different from most Western programs, though. A good storyline and good character[/mecha] design are all an animated series needs. Good music and acting go a long way too. Too many American cartoons are produced with only children in mind, meaning all of the above are supposedly optional. Well, I gravitated more towards Star Blazers/Yamato than the Superfriends when I was a kid, and I know a bunch of others who were the same way.

    < tofuhead >

  • I hear you. Like the computer geek that says popular OSs are totally worthless, the film or music freak that says movies made for the 'commoner' just don't stack up, etc. There is some good stuff out there that is popular, and really it is often up to an individuals tastes.

    I do disagree with the original poster though, show for show that I have watched, it seems that anime is markedly better than US cartoons of late (all IMO, but just watch saturday morning once in a while OK?) There is a crudely I assume US animated Jackie Chan show, among many others I just prefer to block out. Even with Japan being said to be in something of a slump they still seem to do alright, at least for what I see that comes here.

    As for Cowboy BeBop, I have a hard time believing that there won't be a lot of snips here and there, that's not counting what has to be cut for time slot.

    The better theatrical animation seems to go toward Disney's direction, but they have immense budgets. Even I have a hard time comming up with somthing that is all around high quality and original as the Fantasia movies (hey, I liked 2000 OK?).

    Sure on average, stuff that is popular isn't as good, but good stuff for any genre tends to be fairly obscure.
  • by bludstone ( 103539 ) on Saturday December 30, 2000 @10:01PM (#1425331)
    I see alot of people in this thread complaining about mangled and edited anime on tv.

    Anime on tv, regardless if its edited or not, is a good thing. Its not like they are keeping you from seeing the original un-edited versions. Just go out and buy the dvds. What these tv showings of Blue6 and Tenchi do is expose more people to anime. More anime fans (even newbies) means more money for anime companies, which means more money for buying rights to shows like vandread! (good thing)

    Ive heard of a few experiences of people liking escaflowne on fox (even the mangled version) buying the first dvd and being amazed by it. (esca first episode was basically skipped by the fox broadcast).

    If it makes you guys feel better, anime companies are not part of the MPAA, and after talking to some of the studio peeps, dont even like region encoding or macrovision.

    So please stop complaining. America already has the least expensive anime in the world. Titles are upwards of 60$ a disc in japan. You also get both audio tracks and some other bonuses.

    December was qiute the month in the anime dvd area.

  • I hope that Toonami goes with standard procedure and cuts the opening and closing songs.

    Oh yeah! Don't we all LOVE the Toonami's version of Dragonball Z theme song (it's still the same, right? I haven't seen it in a while... can't stand it. It's still the crappy guy with a low voice chanting Dragon Ball... Dragon Ball Z, right?)
  • I understand the purists who are fussing but they just need to go to their local video store or anime shop and snag the real thing.

    My first exposure to anime was Speed Racer courtesy of Uncle Ted Turner at TBS. I saw G-Force (also known as Battle of the Planets) next. Then years later I saw Akira and I realized what good animation could be as opposed to the sterile formula driven crap dished out as American animation.

    Stephen King (media whore at large) said,
    "TV is the magic medium that turns everything it touches into shit."

    He was right. If it gets on TV it will not be as good as the originals. It is a fact of life. It ain't going to change. Get the fsck over it already.

  • by Anonymous Coward
    Bukake and scat videos piped directly from japan. Nothing like japscat!
  • I've been looking for Doraemon and Dr. Slump for years.
    Does anyone know if anything has been translated/ subbed, or if any episodes are availible anywhere??

  • Fansubbing isn't necessarily illegal; if the anime isn't released in the States, it seems to be basically OK.

    Not true. Ever heard of the Berne Convention []? Over 120 nations, including Japan, are party to it, which basically means that they all agree to respect each other's copyrights. The Convention requires that "Works originating in one of the contracting States must be given the same protection in each of the other contracting States as the latter grants to the works of its own nationals." Among the copyrights protected by the Berne Convention including the right to translate, the right to broadcast, and the right to reproduce.

    So, assuming the fansubbers live in a nation that has signed the Berne Convention (and chances are that they do), anything copyrighted in Japan is copyrighted in their nation as well, and they are still committing copyright infringment by translating, broadcastign, and/or reproducing the original anime.

    Yu Suzuki

  • CN plays DBZ in Holland. And Pokemon/Digimon (dunno if you can call it anime though...)
  • Ironic, since most of what CN shows edited on TV here (on cable, no less), aired on broadcast TV in Japan.

    I think it says more about the US, than it does about TV in general.
  • Cause it's a western-style anime, and the ship's name is Bebop.

    Jet is a fan of jazz, you know...
  • Yes, fansubbing *is* illegal. As someone who is involved a digital fansub group, I can tell you that if we were approached by someone, we would instantly buckle, take down the vids etc.

    However, the reason that fansubbing has been successful is that it's somewhat of a win-win situation. For example, a show in Japan (which is unheard of abroad) is fansubbed, and develops a remarkable fan following overseas (which happens a lot). Suddenly the (mostly) American anime companies see a big demand for this title, and subsequently license it and distribute it (after a couple of years, maybe less).

    This works well for (a) the original Japanese studio - they have got this extra business though licensing which they would have never gotten before, and for (b) the American companies - fansub watchers cover a smallish segment of the anime viewing population, so there will be people buying the proper releases. Many fans, and specially anime clubs etc, will go out and buy the proper release even if they had the fansubs, to support the studios, for peace of mind (feeling legit) and for better quality. Also the American companies make a packet if they can sell them to TV networks as mentioned in the article, which fansubs have very little effect on.

    So fansubs, overall, tend to work out well for all parties involved, so although it is technically illegal, the studios/distributors don't tend to file lawsuits or get angry etc, if the fansubbing is done 'by the book' (eg. not selling them, trying to make money off them or silly things like that, and also stopping distribution the instant that they get picked up commerically.)

    The only time I have heard of fansubbers getting in a bit of trouble is with Disney, and we all know what those bastards are like. In any case, complying with demands to remove the videos and discontinue work usually suffices in the case of any problems.
  • first try akira, then el hazard, then perfect blue, then sakura diaries and/or maison ikkoku
  • I hope that Toonami goes with standard procedure and cuts the opening and closing songs.

    Heh heh... ah yes, J-pop theme songs. My absolute least favorite thing about anime... ;)

    They have several decent enough composers (a few more than decent enough) working on anime scores; why oh why can't they just stick to that?
  • by Microlith ( 54737 ) on Saturday December 30, 2000 @08:26PM (#1425343)
    It's a virtual impossibility, unless they plan to air it only on the midnight run. Even then, it faces heavy editing.

    When Cowboy Bebop aired in Japan, they only aired 12 episodes on TV Tokyo, because many of the episodes were deemed too violent (if you've seen any of the Spike v. Vicious episodes, you know).

    If it couldn't air in it's entirety except on Japanese cable, there's no chance in hell it'll survive the knife on CN.

    Kenshin, too, will face a hard time. And that aired untouched on japanese broadcast (though you'll never see the OVA series on CN). They'll probably get some lame Sony-mangled version.

    I fear for Bebop and Kenshin appearing on CN, unless they get real brave and show 'em only on the midnight run.
  • 'cause its about bounty hunters and Jazz music, and americans would've named it Space Hunters 2199. I think Cowboy Bepop's a pretty cool name for a space sci-fi.
  • It's a virtual impossibility, unless they plan to air it only on the midnight run. Even then, it faces heavy editing.

    Yeah. I mean, come on. It's got Faye... ;)

    But seriously, I think the first real red flag moment in Bebop that I remember was when (MINOR SPOILER) Faye (I think it was Faye?) runs in on those two naked guys in bed. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I'm not sure Toonami is quite ready for something like that... there's things like that and the completely innocent family bathing scene in Totoro that could either be red flags for censorship or interesting ways to look at differences in cultural taboos.

    God knows we Americans could use a little more of that sort of education.
  • yeah and you prolly wish you werent 12 yrs old anymore either right? live a little before talking dumbass.
  • From what I understand, there is easily enough Dragon Ball Z and GT to last CN until 2002 (and that is assuming they don't show the orginal Dragon Ball). With any luck, Funimation will give up the dub and some other party will take it up (i.e., Cartoon Network or the orginal Canadian dubbers).

    The chances of CN showing Kenshin or Cowboy Bebop are slim, seeing the violent nature of these shows and their relative "newness". (Then again Shin Tenchi came out in 1997 - but it came with a package with Muyo and Univerese).

    We'll probably end up seeing more DB (the Trunks and Bardock TV specials seem likely) and even some Tenchi movies in the near future.

    I believe we have the best chance of seeing shows like Ranma 1/2 (which would easily provided months of programming with the series, OVAs, and movies). The brief nudity in the show could be easily edited.

    At this point I'm just hoping, but Toonami could easily be spun off into its own station. The network could show subbed and dubbed anime, movies, etc. The only issue would be the black hole it leaves in Cartoon Network's schedule.

  • I know what you mean. Just thinking about how butchered Cowboy Bebop would have to be for cable makes me shudder. Even if it's only for time; I think the Japanese have the right idea with the 'one commecial break every 15 minutes; for 2 minutes' thing. Only one break for a half hour show... lovely.
  • Ok, I'll admit I don't watch anime. Now and then I've caught bits and pieces of DBZ on tv, and it didn't seem that bad if you would get into it. I've also seen Ghost in the Shell, awesome movie. But cmon guys, the names of these shows just are not doin it for me - if anything they make me afraid to put this stuff on. Mobile Suit Gundam, *Cowboy Bebop*, Magic Knights RayEarth, Rurouni Kenshin, and then others I've heard of like Bubble Gum Crisis? It sounds like stuff for 7 year olds (although I can tell from the discussion they aren't). What's the deal with these gays names?
  • I don't suppose that you have any sort of evidence to support this undoubtedly well-researched claim of yours? If you do, I would be very interested in finding out that I'm a child-molester.....and a dork to boot.
  • by Anonymous Coward
    Think about it, the qualitys (i.e. superior animation and story) that set anime apart from the rest of the 'cartoons' will become more common place. Thus as popular culture becomes familer with anime it (popular culture)will also become desensitized to it. Eventually the fickel public will become bored with the medium and the medium will respond with trite plots twists and other sensationalism that appeals to the lowest commen denominator. And in the process of trying to garner viewers they will destroy the art form that we all (most of us anyway)have come to know and love.

    As you have noted anime is becoming more and more popular every day. But that MAY not be a good thing. The fringe culture of anime may be the very thing that draws many /.rs to it.

    /The rules of english are what we SAY they are./
  • are not all geeks. I hardly consider myself a geek and I love anime. Making blanket accusations about all fans of a particular thing is not only pointless, but moronic. Sure some anime fans are geeks, but not all of us. So calm down angry person and open your mind a bit. -EeveeKim
  • Gundam Wing was my first Anime series I ever got into -- saw a tape of episodes 1-4 at WalMart one day and for some reason bought it. Watched the entire series on CN since then. Very good stuff -- more than just giant robots. Not that giant battle robots are in any way bad.
  • There are only 25 episodes.

    Yes, that's right. That is the end of the series. Gotta love those happy endings.

    The manga is still running in Japan. I think it's up to 20 or 21 volumes at this point, but I don't think they're planning on animating more of it.

    There's also a so-so Dreamcast game that's been released in the US as "Sword of the Berserk."

    Check out Black Sun Over Midland [] for more info.

  • Note this is my personal opions on cartoons and anime if you are offended, I apoloigse for stepping on your toes, but being able to say this stuff is what I wasted six years of my life in the navy for.

    For Once I am glad that CN is getting its head out of the toilet humor department. sure the vintage cartoons like:

    Scooby Doo --The Cartoon that makes you wonder who is behind the bad guy mask, who is really doing who, and what is really in those scobby snacks.

    Johnny Quest -Where did they go today and why did they bother to redo the whole dang thing, and will Johnny ever grow up I mean he was a kid when I was young. Oh to have all that fun and neat toys and stay young forever.

    GI Joe --When it was good thing to be in the military, when national pride ment going out and spending your money of a 2 inch tall hunk was paramount Feh they never showed the Down side and real way the military is that was all glamor boy junk, don't get me started on how horrid the benifits of service really are. Bad food and Underpaid just short of welfare and we have to like it about sums it up.

    Transformers--(Sigh) a sad marketing campaign for the toys but it had its moments in an almost anime sort of way.

    He-Man --See tranformers and add in flames from NOW about it be chovenistic when really it did not really care about that issue after all it was there to sell the toy.

    Hanna Barbera-Where oh where did these good toons go oh where oh were can they be well cartoon network is picking alot of them up thank
    you Uncle Ted for holding on to these for us.

    Tom and Jerry-Senceless violence that a whole nation enjoyed without crying out that it will corrupt our young impressionable minds, why oh why
    cant we have more of this. Every one well almost everyone can remember laughing at T&J some time in their life. Dangit T&J 2004 all the way.

    Popeye --Is he Navy is Coasty it dont matter he helped get us though WWII then went downhill with no benifits go figure.

    Looney Toons--For the CAD in us all looney toons was not ment for kids when it came out but then now no one seems to notice the very adult themes in this one any more and the next generation of them have been sanitized for our young "tiny toons" anyone.

    are worthy of being on the CN they also had a flood of crud toons that IMHO are not worth the time like:

    Cow and Chicken--Ugh ok this if a few cow chips and chicken specks short of a manure pile nuf said, personaly I would rather subject my kids to Elmo all day long instead of this junk.

    Johney Brovo -- Another Junk toon except this one lets see the world stupidest egomaniac get turned down every episiode.

    I am Weasle -- Not really that funny borderline stupid.

    Power puff girls -- Gack, cough, hack, sputter.

    after all if we wanted braindead we toilet cartoons we could find old stand bys like
    Ren an Stempy -- The ultimate in groos toon thank the slime factory at MTV for this one, which they pawned off on NICK who Pawned it off somewhere else.

    Bevis and Butthead-"Hehehe, hey Bevis we made the list thats Kewl""Shut-up Butmunch he only put us here for toilet humor" "hehehe you said toilet" "hehehe yes I guess I did hehehe I AM THE GREAT CORNHOLIO"

    So the introduction of Amime is a good thing, but IMHO they should go fro some the better quality stuff not.

    Dragon Ball Z--When will the hurting stop mommy, they are showing us the butchered version make them stop. (spent time stationed in japan and saw the real thing we are sucking bad in copairision. but then we got ripped on every good thing that got sent out of there just look at final fantasy and dragon warior.)

    Speed Racer -- Would be great it it had more veriety and did not seem so dated. can't compain too loudly about the artwork because that was what had made speed racer what it was.

    Pokeeman -- OK the oringal japanize version of this (pocket monsters) one will give you fits the American version again is doped down.

    If they need stuff theat will fly just under the sensors they should go with,

    Socerer Hunters (aka Spell wars)-- magic is bad so lets have a which hunt using people with magic.

    Those who hunt Elves --Good storyline bad implemetation but then that is the sanitized ADV version for you.

    Record of the Lotus wars -- Maybee just a little too deep for our current dumbed down america.

    Heroic ledgend Arslan-- see lotus wars.

    and for primetime movies

    Vampire hunter D--A classic if I ever saw one, wish it was still in production.

    Battle Angel--Another Classic must see if you think all Anime is bad this one might change your mind.

    Neon Genisis--I never realized the full potental of this one intil I watched 0:1 thru 0:13 the first time.

    Super Antrinon- Call me a kook but I would say this one seems almost pre second impact. Almost sets up Neon Genisis Nicley.

    Ghost in the shell-- Nother Deep classic if you aint seen it you dont know what your missing.

    finally for midnight showings when parents have most control over their children.

    Hevey metal (original)-- American adult comics at their best biger louder nastier than any others god bless the USA.

    Urrokidoji (sp)-- Ok scrach this. This is so close to henti it will never get on Amererican airwaves.

    Curse of Yoma- Another Deep one.. if you dont have an open mind dont bother with it. It will go over your head.

    Akira - YEAH ULTRA-VIOLENCE that would make Alex from clockwork orange either Cream himself or Dang near Snuff it.

    Most the others that would be deemed too violent or have content that pushes the boarder line.

    Well enough ranting, I know "BAD LICH back to your Floorboards and stay"

    Khelben H. Vasq
  • The name of the anime is Rurouni Kenshin.

    It gets a *lot* better.

    Watch the first 6 or so episodes and skip to about episode 24. Watch through around 64, and ignore the rest.

    Trust me, it's worth it.

    The movie is crap, the OVAs are decent, but the Kyoto arc in the TV series is just so amazingly kick-ass. Everything before is okay, everything afterwards is crap.
  • Go rent Grave of the Fireflies or Princess Mononoke and then come back and tell us how wrong you were.
  • I've never, *ever* watched any anime before. Sure I watch cartoons. Looney Tunes, the Simpsons, Futurama, Ren & Stimpy, GI Joe... The list goes on. But I've never even seen two seconds of anime.

    Does that make me a bad person?

  • also usually has good deals on anime. combine with coupons from, and you can get some DVDs for cheap.

    (Make sure to check out fightdivx. It has a whole bunch of DVD coupons at several retailers.)

    If ordering off the web is too slow for you, go off to your local Suncoast Video: They have a HUGE anime section in mine.
  • Too bad Cartoon Network Europe doesn't play Anime.

    (At least last time I checked).
  • by Anonymous Coward
    > I think the Japanese have the right idea with the 'one commecial break every 15 minutes;
    > for 2 minutes' thing. Only one break for a half hour show... lovely.

    It's like that in England too. America is just too commercial for its own good. Maybe you're just too gullible :-)
  • ummmm.......i cant say i've watched much either. i own the DiVX of Ghost in the Shell, but i'ven't watched it yet. maybe i will tonight or something. but i mean who needs anime when there's the simpsons?? i mean seriously........
  • You didn't offend me, I was curious what it was. Yeah, the villains did bug me too, actually just the stupid morphing boomers - I understand they are bio-engineered but their mutations defy any sense of logic and reality I can put to it. AFIAK, I think it was a teen-aimed series, not really for kids, similar to the new BGC 2040, which I happen to like more, it doesn't have such huge gaping plot holes to show where a budget used to be.

    I am not sure which thread this it was in, I too cringe when people have such glorious and gushing praise of one show to the exclusion of others, and gringe when people excessively rip something as trash.

    My tastes often run varied. I can appreciate a good deal of anime (95%+ of what I manage to watch) but I can't appreciate the rabidness of enthusiasm that some people put into it. My ratings often run counter to the status quo on some things. I liked Tenchi Universe and New Tenchi (aka Tenchi in Tokyo) as much or more than I liked the OVAs, I guess mostly because there is more of a coherent story within each series, although there is little real connection between each series other than the main characters.
  • I have seen the original Magic Knight Rayearth in fansubbed form. Once I found that my feel-good anime rental store had the professional dubbed release, I had to check it out.

    What I found out...they pretty much raped the theme-songs (which I absolutley LOVED!), the voices were annoying, and they took out some other small things. I hope that Toonami goes with standard procedure and cuts the opening and closing songs. Now, it they would only play it in subtitled, maybe we could reinforce reading yet!

    Get your subtitled on before you get your dub on. That's the #1 rule of anime.

  • > I think the Japanese have the right idea with the 'one commecial break every 15 minutes;
    > for 2 minutes' thing. Only one break for a half hour show... lovely.

    It's like that in England too. America is just too commercial for its own good. Maybe you're just too gullible :-)

    Too commercial for its own good? Definitely. The thing is, the length of commercials on the original Japanese airing seems to be rising, or at least higher than people think it is.

    Last I checked American broadcasts, about 3/4 of an hour (22.5 minutes) is dedicated to the show, the rest to ads. I am seeing quite a few anime shows that are going to about 23.5 minutes. The most common misconception about anime TV shows is that the original broadcast is always 25 minutes, but I really haven't found that to be the case for any show that I have checked, they usually run short of that, so that's actually about 6 minutes of ads, I just don't know how they are arranged.

    I think in the US it is broken to several short breaks just so that there isn't much time to leave the TV and make it back to see the show, or to increase the likelyhood that someone will still be watching the commercial. I keep wondering why we need more ads if we are more gullible? I read about advertisers complaining about the lack of effectiveness of commercials, I wonder if they lack a sense of reality, and a definite lack of creativity on their part.

  • with the surge in popularity of the gundam wing merchandise (figurines etc etc), i'm surprised they'd pull the series. where does it say they're pulling it, though? it looks like they ran the whole series, and are now moving to mobile suit gundam as the next step...

    personally, i'm looking forward to ReBoot, cheesy as it seems...

  • by ProfKyne ( 149971 ) on Sunday December 31, 2000 @06:49AM (#1425367)
    If it makes you guys feel better, anime companies are not part of the MPAA, and after talking to some of the studio peeps, dont even like region encoding or macrovision.

    I hate to be a pessimist, but if anime gets greater widespread appeal, how long do you think it will be before the MPAA subsumes anime companies? Or they just create their own anime companies, and use the leverage of their resources to win out on import rights? Or, in characteristic MPAA fashion, use their leverage to keep small-time anime companies from getting access to airtime?

    I hate to say it because it iselitist, but the fact is that the widespread acceptance of a cultural product (such as anime) usually ends up watering it down. Not that widespread acceptance inherently must dilute culture, but rather that big-time businesses take an interest and then exercise their typical "lowest-common-denominator"ing on the products in the process of capitalizing on them.

    Anime on tv, regardless if its edited or not, is a good thing. Its not like they are keeping you from seeing the original un-edited versions.

    I'd rather see a few high-quality UNEDITED anime shows on the Midnight Run than a whole bunch of Sony-mangled cartoons on a few channels. Why? Because pretty soon, Japanese animation studios will have to consider the almighty American Market when making new shows, and will start censoring themselvesto ensure that there is no problem in exporting the shows to the States. And if that happens, we won't have to worry about getting the unedited version, because the unedited version will have been candy-fied to American standards.

    This process of intentionally or unintentionally changing other cultures' cultural products, often for the worse, is known as American cultural imperialism.

  • by robbway ( 200983 ) on Saturday December 30, 2000 @07:56PM (#1425368) Journal
    This thread is going to rapidly devolve into "My Favorite" vs. "Show X Sux." I'm glad anime is going (sort of) mainstream. Although many anime series are animated better than their American counterparts, most are cheaply animated, simply drawn, and generally lesser quality animation. However, they are different. I especially like how many anime series and films won't hand the plot directly to the viewer. The Tenchi series are great examples of that.

    I like it. I like it a lot.


  • by emufreak ( 83564 )
    God, I sure hope they don't show Cowboy Bebop. It's a great series, but they'd kill it with all the censoring. :(

    There's nothing to censor in Ruroni Kenshin--not in the TV series, anyway. If the OVAs were to be shown on TV, they would probably be about half as long. :>

    I have only seen parts of Magic Knight Rayearth, so I don't have any comments to make.

    I'm not against anime on TV, I'm just against the censoring of it. (I'm against dubs, too, but if some people don't want to read subtitles, then so be it. That's their preference.)
  • Get your subtitled on before you get your dub on. That's the #1 rule of anime.
    Of course there are still exceptions. Princess Mononoke, anyone?
  • As someone who has watched anime for years (and loves just about every genre) I have a few suggestions.

    For actiona and comedy you can't go wrong with Cowboy Bebop and Trigun. Both are space meets the wild west themed (Trigun especially. Bebop has a Bruce Lee flavor in it as well). I haven't seen Roushin Kenshin, but I hear it is absoutely spectacular.

    For Romantic comedy Aa Megami-Sama is great (the OVAs), as is Tenchi Muyo! and Ranma 1/2.

    More serious work includes Vampire Hunter D (a bit hard to watch after 25 years, but the modd is still there), a gothic, bizarre work with charater design by Yoshitaka Amano (he did design for Final Fantasy). Also, Mononoke Hime (Princess Mononoke) is widely acclaimed and is absoultely stunning, both in plot nuance and visually. Serial Experiments Lain is among the best techno anime avaliable - it invovles a young girl getting lost, losing herself, on the Net. Of course there is also the seminal sci-fi hit, Akira.

    Fantasy anime is best exemplified by the Record of Lodoss War OVAs and Slayers.

    Mecha anime is very popular and Gundam Wing, Macross, and Evangalion are among its best representatives.

    For kids Cardcaptor Sakura (in Japanese - the American WB version is horrible), Kiki's Delivery Service, and My Neighbor Toroto are good (though I enjoy them too!)

    Hope that helped (and it wasn't too much! =))

  • ...except for the fact that it would require some pretty substantial editing at parts.

    What I would like to see even more is a decent treatment of The Vision of Escaflowne free of Fox's unforgivable edits and "additions". There already exists a pretty good dub of the Macross Plus OVA's (it's on the DVDs); I bet those could draw pretty big numbers as prime-time Toonami specials.

    Of course, we'll probably just get more DBZ. (sigh)

    I think what we really need is some entity in a position like Toonami is in to at least have a block of decent anime presented in a respectable format. I think that quality, high-class work like Escaflowne and the Ghibli films, presented uncut in the original Japanese could draw a surprising audience in the States. I'm dreaming, of course.
  • Not to be rude but dubs have their place. When I try to get people into Anime, I usually use a good dub rather than a sub, because it is easier for the uninitiated to get into. And with American TV as it is, we're looking at dubs or no anime at all.

    Basically, without dubs, it would be very hard to bring people into fandom. You may say that's a good thing, but it isn't. To keep anime in america (subbed or dubbed) there has to be cash lining pockets.

    As for co-opting culture, America is not the only one. Check out the any number of anime with English names. All of Asia co-ops Western culture, Japan especially. In Japan, Western is chic, it's used for style, even if some of it doesn't make sense to native English speakers.

    Add to that the difficulty of Japanese. I'm studying it now. It's fun, but it's no walk in the park.

  • the link to the cnx site has a statement that indicated that it'll be in the UK soon:

    "In the UK, Toonami has just begun, with Dragon Ball Z leading the way, Batman of the Future (Batman Beyond to us Yanks) in the mix, and coming soon, Gundam Wing."

  • it bothers me that so many people can be so quick to strike down things from behind their monitors with such animosity. If you don't like anime that's fine, you're entitled to say so. But all I see is people who can hardly form a sentence either saying anime r00lz or anime blows. If you haven't ever watched an anime, I say give it a chance. To me it was one of those things that you acquire a taste for. I have rarely seen a person who has seen one showing of an anime and fallen in love with it. Most of it is finding what you like as well. Some like sci-fi anime, some like fantasy anime, and some like Tenchi style anime hehe. It can be kiddie in who it tries to appeal to (Pokemon), or it can be very adult (Akira, Ghost in the Shell). Just remember that one of Siskel and Ebert's top ten movies of the year last year was an anime (Princess Mononoke (sp?)). But even if you hate anime with a passion, lets all be adults here m'kay?
  • Yeah, we do. It's done every day.

    Go get the DVDs. You can grab all of bebop on dvd for ~$120. A worthy investment for someone who likes anime, IMO.
  • OK: fansubs I'm currently interested in:

    1.) Bannou Bunka Neko Musume Nuku Nuku the TV Series. I have episodes 1 and 2 and nothing else. No anime distributor currently gives a crap about it, and judging from the two episodes I have it is the funniest damn thing I have ever seen in Anime. It's a "Police Squad!" esque satirical takedown of every single Anime cliche there is. I think ADVision has first dibs on it but so far they have yet to take advantage of it. I have had this tape of episodes 1 and 2 for two years now.

    2.) The Eva movies. Neon Genesis Evangelion the TV Series is out legitimately, and even aired on San Jose's PBS affiliate, but so far I have no idea who has rights to the movies. The TV series was a fsckn MIRACLE literally and figuratively. I want to see more.

    If anyone has leads on these fansubs please email me...the spamblock munging is easy to figure out.

    BTW folks the Mononoke Hime DVD is the total way to do it...Disney finally listened to the fans and came out with a class product 100% down the line. I hate the RIAA as much as anyone but fsck, man...English, Japanese and French tracks, choice of the Gaiman dubscript or a literal translation of the Miyazaki shooting script for's worth supporting, man! If someone gives this treatment to the two Evangelion movies I will buy them even if they fsckn cost $100/DVD. BOYCOTT ALL OTHER DVDS BUT BUY MONONOKE. Anyone who thinks Anime is about tentacle rape and giant robots needs to at least RENT IT. There is a reason why Mononoke Hime was the biggest movie in Japan before stupid "Titanic" blew it's a masterpiece.

    ---- Hey Grrl Geeks! Your very own geek news site has arrived!

  • Kicks ass, no tentacles, great strong female characters, jaw-droppingly gorgeous. Buy it or rent it, it is absolutely incredible. Disney/Miramax listened to the fans this time and did the DVD release RIGHT.

    ---- Hey Grrl Geeks! Your very own geek news site has arrived!

  • Isn't claiming to "own" a DiVX of something an oxymoron or something?
  • No way CN would keep show that guy shooting drugs in his eyes
  • 1. The USB support in 2.4 is not an amaturish hack.
    2. SMP speeds up the system just fine on Linux if you are using a kernel compiled for SMP. Maybe you are refering to some other free Unix clone?
  • Not true. Most episodes of "Daria" clock in at 20 minutes or less because MTV's commercial breaks are so fsckn long.

    ---- Hey Grrl Geeks! Your very own geek news site has arrived!

  • I know I'm becoming a fsckn broken record, but if you want to see great strong female characters in a jaw-droppingly brilliant animated feature, go see Princess Mononoke.

    Actually Miyazaki has been doing movies with strong female characters for literally decades. From Countess Cagliostro in "Castle Of Cagliostro" to Kiki in "Kiki's Delivery Service" Miyazaki-sama has been very cool. Look for anything put out by Studio Ghibli. "Kiki" is available all over the place because Disney did a very high-profile dub of it.

    Also "Ghost In The Shell" has Major Motoko Kusanagi, another really strong female (well, she's mostly robotic but oh well) character.

    ---- Hey Grrl Geeks! Your very own geek news site has arrived!

  • I have been a life-long animation fan. I am into animation not only from Japan, but from Europe and the US too. It is only in the US and Canada where animation is considered fit only for children.

    In Japan, the animation industry is more vital by far than the live-action motion picture industry. It has to do with a lack of soundstage space more than anything else, although modern computer compositing techniques might change things there at last. I hate to be a broken record, but "Princess Mononoke" was the biggest movie in Japanese box office history until "Titanic" came along. That means that it wasn't just kids with their butts in seats there. Actually I wouldn't show "Mononoke" to anyone under's bloody, it deals with certain things parents don't like their children knowing about, like prostitution and different concepts of god other than that approved by the Southern Baptist Convention, etc. etc.

    Even in Europe animation is not considered just kidvid. Animated features and TV series geared exclusively to adults have been produced for decades in Europe.

    There has been progress over the years, but US and Canadian animators still have that Cartoons=Kidvid stigma to overcome. It's a damn shame. Animation is just...COOL.

    Michelle Klein-Hass
    Associate Editor, Toon Magazine []
    Former Webkeeper, Animation Nerd's Paradise []
    Current Author, MsGeek.Org.

    ---- Hey Grrl Geeks! Your very own geek news site has arrived!

  • I think the Evangelion fansubs have been out for a long time. I remember looking for them about a year ago and I found a couple of distros who had it. This is in Australia too - if you live in the US you may probably have more luck. AFAIK the movies haven't been picked up by any commercial distributors yet (or maybe they have - I have absolutely no idea), so you may be lucky.

    Re: Nuku Nuku, if the rights have been bought, then you probably won't have any luck getting fansubs (that is if the distros/fansubbers etc. do things the right way). Most fansub groups will stop distribution once a series has been picked up commercially.

    Otherwise, get cracking learning your Japanese so you can watch them as soon as they're released :).
  • where?
  • Then why don't you watch one of the many animé that's tentacle-free, such as Akazukin Cha Cha. It's merely cute with no sex whatsoever.....and get your mind out of the gutter of your outdated paradigm.
  • Because fansubbing is illegal and making a big thing out of it would result in companies coming down hard on fansubbers.

    Web warez like on the elite-fansub site is already getting a little out there.
  • The coward who replied to this almost had it right. Cowboy Bebop is not kid's stuff and most people who saw it had to drag others to see it because of the damn name. However, a good deal of the kiddie sounding anime is kiddie stuff.

    Bubblegum Crisis is moronic at best. Gundam is fun but it is like watching Batman on Saturday morning it is just adults indulging themselves by watching a kid's cartoon.

    Ninja Scroll is not kid's stuff.
    Akira is not kid's stuff.
    Neon Genesis Evangelion is great.
    Serial Experiment Lain is deep as hell.

    The grown up stuff is out there. It is marred by the porn (BTW, if it looks like a horror flick there will be a disturbing rape scene don't bother with the crap). It is mixing in with the kid's stuff. Rourin Kenshin is a one man A-team running around with a sword never killing anyone. Its kid's stuff. There is a new series dealing with his younger life as an assasin that is violent, a bit deep and disturbing. Not kid's stuff.

    Sometimes, it is tough to tell the difference. I thought Rourin Kenshin would be great from the reviews and it is worshipped by many but I thought it was formulastic and smacked of kid's stuff. Cute, but nothing special.

  • I was a big time RoboTech fan through high school. Then I saw Eraserhead, and I knew that I had changed. Now when I see the 28 year olds at the office wiggle in their seats over sailor moon toys, I get the creeps more than when I first saw Eraserhead.

    I guess in a way I've become a fan of other people's anime fandom. Please don't mention any of this to JonKatz, thx!
  • I understand most of the post, but Bubblegum Crisis as moronic? Have you actually watched it?

    The two things that are moronic are 1) the name, until you learn the meaning (the situation with the Boomers about ready to explode, the "Bubblegum Crash" is after the 'pop') and 2) the dub. It's not my kind of series but I've found it entertaining.

    Kenshin is more than a one man A-team, into the second US released volume he gets good allies, and the show does progress. I have grown to appreciate it but it isn't on my personal must-get list either.
  • I think the main claim people make is that the characters are poorly drawn, but that doesn't stand up; anime characters are all drawn in a very stylized way. Even Hayao Miyazaki's films (eg Mononoke Hime and Grave of the Fireflies) have the trademark anime-style characters.
  • Fansubbing isn't necessarily illegal; if the anime isn't released in the States, it seems to be basically OK. If you order tapes from a fansubber, then (I think) you can only pay for postage.

    It's kind of in a grey area. It's not really popular enough to attract the attention of the studios, so for the moment, it's a great way to get anime that (a) isn't available in the States or (b) isn't available in the original Japanese.
  • just a little note: not all of NGE is out yet on DVD, only eps. 1-8. at the rate ADV releases them, it will all be available by ~oct/nov 2001.
  • ..I think some of the anime stuff out there is real art. I don't like pokemon and such, but when I saw Princess Mononoke, I decided that I will start to research this subject better. Princess Mononoke has been for me an uplifting experience, the best cartoon and most original in terms of animation, character profiling and plot. It does require a certain IQ, but being on Slashdot, I feel I can recommend it with no fear.

    So, I recommend it? It's not just hype, Princess Mononoke is really good!

  • This thread is going to rapidly devolve into "My Favorite" vs. "Show X Sux."

    A mildly irritating trend. Let's not forget the trolls and the "I love Akira/Ghost/Ninja Scroll" bandwagoners that rather dominate anime discussions on Slashdot. I'm almost to the point of agreeing with the trolls; anime and Slashdot might not go so well together...

    I especially like how many anime series and films won't hand the plot directly to the viewer.

    You're going to love Lain.
  • Actually, at the midnight run hour, its really CN's fault because they want to keep a standard so if a kid turns it on at midnight they aren't forever scarred.

    It's an Image Thing.
  • There are several good anime that I like..
    You should try to get a copy of these to watch:
    Love Hina (not released)
    Hand Maid May (not released, this is NOT hentai, dispite how the name sounds)
    Trigun (In US, dvd or vhs)
    Photon (In US, dvd at least)
    Dual (In US, dvd at least)

    I hear Kenshin is good, but by all accounts the dub is bad :(
    LH and HMM were both made by the same creators, They are both romantic, but LH is also a comedy
    Trigun is a sort of sci-fi-ish western (still with guns/bullets tho :P)
    Photon is a comedy, ya just have to see it :P
    Dual is sort of mecha

    This is just my personal collection, there are hundreds of other animes out there, each with their own story.
    If something is unreleased in the US or Europe then you'll have to either import it or go find fansubs (Please don't get fansubs for anything that's released in your area, Please support the people who worked hard to bring anime to your area.)
    You could also find some Hentai, if that's your sort of thing.. not all anime=hentai.

    Also, if you can buy the manga for whatever series that you are watching.. then that can help explain some parts to you, if you were confused at all. (I'm still noticing stuff in the LH anime that I didn't see the first couple of times thru)

    Explore your tastes, find what you like and what you don't.. get a dvd with both english and japanese(or whatever language, with english subs) and find out if you like subbed or dubbed anime.
    Everyone is different.

    -since when did 'MTV' stand for Real World Television instead of MUSIC television?
  • or has anyone else noticed an extreme resemblance between Tetsuo in Akira and the bloat that has become the Windows 2000 kernel?
  • How sad is it that the US finds the Berne Convention to be important enough to sign, but not the Universal Declaration of Human Rights?

  • I've been running Professional for a while and so far the only thing that has caused this thing to crash is the USB. Bloddy USB hardware either is just crappy or the drivers are crappy. Either one. Windows didn't like it.
  • by Anonymous Coward
    NOTE: name change to protect the unwashed (^_^)

    I'll keep it short and simple. I've never really watched anime. If one wanted to start watching anime, what are a couple good series to watch? There just seems to be a plethera of anime to watch now, just would like to know a couple titles to get me started.
  • i thought the whole purpose of the show was to show the world how hot gillian anderson is....... :)
  • I don't know about you, but I get tired of people constantly claiming that all anime is porn. Its not, I think that series like Tenchi would have proven that. Then there is violence - not all anime is violent, Dragonball Z, which is probably has the lowest production cost of any show I've seen is not an example of what all anime is like. Many of the better shows do involve violence, but it is essential to the plot - Ranma 1/2 has heavy martial arts combat in it, but the characters are all martial artists, and it usually takes a humourous turn. A classic example of non-offensive violence is Urusei Yatsura where would the show be if Lum did not shock Ataru constantly?! On the subject of Rurouni Kenshin on Toonami, I could see them changing the language a bit - although I've never seen the private release eps, only the fan sub ones - other than that I can't think of too much that would get changed, there is a bit of blood, but not too much. Heres to another successful year of Toonami!
  • Nope, he's referring to Linux.
  • Old thread, no one will see this, oh well...

    Rumor has it that FOX is sniffing around Slayers for TV [I'd prefer CN as there will be MUCH less editing on cable, but...]. There are some 'suggestive situations and language' that may be at issue, plus the whole idea of the heroine getting her powers from demons [refered to as the vague 'monster race' in the dub]. So that explains the reason it hasn't been scooped up as quickly as Pokemon etc. Hopefully someone will pick it up, as it is probably in the top 10 'most agreeable to americans' category, and is pretty entertaining to boot.

    [Disclaimer: yup, I'm a Slayers fan, so my opinion is slanted]

  • Because pretty soon, Japanese animation studios will have to consider the almighty American Market when making new shows, and will start censoring themselves to ensure that there is no problem in exporting the shows to the States.

    Yikes! I wonder about that myself... "Card Captors" on Saturday mornings here, is that a watered-down version of something that's really cool in original Japanese, or is it the first in a line of 'let's make some crap anime to sell to Americans' shows?

    FWIW, my first exposure to anime was "Wicked City", I kinda jumped in with both feet - GITS, Perfect Blue... Card Captors is like cheap-o sugar substitute after that. :-) I will have to look for the unedited Escaflowne, though, as a previous poster mentioned.

    "I'm not a bitch, I just play one on /."
  • For everyone's information, there's a whole assload of Anime movies showing up on the Encore "Action" channel lately. Ghost in The Shell, Macross, Patlabor, lots of good stuff.
  • "Card Captors" on Saturday mornings here, is that a watered-down version of something that's really cool in original Japanese, or is it the first in a line of 'let's make some crap anime to sell to Americans' shows?

    It is indeed a watered-down version of a much cooler Japanese show.

    When I first saw Card Captor Sakura in Japanese at Nan Desu Kan [] two years ago, I thought it would be a great show for someone to import to the USA. Great CLAMP visuals, a strong young female in the lead, and a story premise with a lot of potential.

    So I was pretty disappointed to see Cardcaptors, the Americanized version being show in WB Kids on Saturday morning. They've diminished Sakura's central role (the title change is a good giveaway there) and in the process messed with the continuity, starting the series somewhere in the middle.


  • Highly unlikely. They couldn't even get the entire show broadcast on normal TV in Japan due to content. As for American broadcast standard, every adult main characters (3 of them) smoke like they cured cancer and drank beer to hard liquer. Drug (in 2071 newer and more exotic drugs are available) use is somewhat rampant. And don't even get me started on what they need to cut out in terms of violence.

  • That is cable though. Every time I check broadcast TV I come up to about 22 1/2 minutes for the show itself, BUT I count the opening and closing credits, as they are part of the show and aren't commercials.

    I think broadcast and cable are set to different standards. Your example makes me happy that I am not a cable subscriber.
  • Makes more sense now. When it first came on the WB I thought, "oh, look at that, a Pokemon copycat show" but now that I've watched it a few times I see it could be more. Thanks for clueing me in!

    "I'm not a bitch, I just play one on /."
  • Ok, maybe moronic was a bit harsh. I should be more sensitive.

    Maybe part of it was the dub with the voices so high glasses in my apartment were breaking. However, it was still a kid's series.

    The target audience was young teens. The J-pop included in the series was marginal at best. The plots, and villians were silly IMHO. I actually thought the main characters and general series ideas were kind of neat. I just did not like the series. I love anime, though, and I respect your opinion.

    Yes, I did watch the series.

    I knew I was going to catch hell for the Kenshin comments but I never understood the undying devotion some fans hold for a anime aimed so squarely at the kid audience. To hear some people talk about the series you would think that Jesus-freakin'-Christ himself dropped it from the heavens. Instead, the series is really good mainstream prime time kid's anime. Something for the munchkins to watch. Once again, it is just my opinion, my preference.

    It seems sometimes that you cannot love anime without following blindly the opinions of the majority anime fans. I know that is not where you are coming from so I replied.

  • I have watched the entire series includeing the OVAs of Rurouni Kenshin for the last 2 years the way it was meant to be viewed, Japanese and English subtitles, and I have to say it is my absolute favorite anime. It will however absolutely ruin the experience watching it dubbed to english! I saw some previews for Samurai X (the american dubbed version of Kenshin) and simply put its lame! Don't ruin the experience, watch it in Japanese and English subtitles please! I don't know where they find these lamos for the english voices but IMHO it is awful
  • Gundam Wing ... [is] more than just giant robots.

    That must be understatement of the month :-)

  • by tenchiken ( 22661 ) on Sunday December 31, 2000 @09:40AM (#1425416)
    I really doubt that CN is going to let Bebop thru. As it was, the best Bebop episodes (IMHO) did not even air in Japan due to timeslot considerations. Also, for the most part, the series we have seen so far have had typical "happy" endings. Several of these Animes do not.

    Which is not to say that this is a bad thing per se. But...

    The real question imho, is why someone has not yet picked up a series that is taylor made for America, plenty of explosions, slapstick humour, real plot and no nudity. Slayers.

    (Rumour had it Slayers was picked up by SCI-Fi, but so far nothing).
  • It's an insult to the original Gundam. It's so ugly.. this is not the kind anime that people in Italy and Japan (and somewhere else too I hope) of my generation grew up with.
    Forget all this new bullshit.. try to look into the old Gundam (RX-78) and anything from Akira Toriyama before Dragonball, Rumiko Takahashi and Go Nagai the king of the megarobots.
    Aibo, P3, Asimo etc are the also the fruit of passion for robots brought around by manga artists.
  • Don't worry, no one likes the dub of Bubblegum Crisis, very few like Bubblegum Crash at all, and opinions are mixed on BGC2040. (me, I didn't like it) And if you think it's hard to get people to take Cowboy Bebop seriously b/c of the name, then you'll know there's no chance for Bubblegum Crisis.

    I'd suggest watching the subtitled version, and being lenient; BGC is pretty old, and the animation and storyline didn't improve to today's standards until the 5th episode. (of course a lot of the stuff on Cartoon Network, American or Japanese is barely animated anyway....)

    Anyway, have you seen "Key the Metal Idol"? I never really got into it, but according to good friends of mine, it's supposed to be similar to Lain, but better. Me, I love Escaflowne, the second Patlabor movie, Wings of Honneamise, nigh-anything by Miyazaki.... Check those out - they're all good stuff.
  • Fansubs! Fansubs fansubs fansubs!

    Go to The Anime Turnpike []. Start your search there. I recommend using Kodocha Anime.
  • I'm sorry, but Gundam Wing is crap. Try Neon Genesis Evangelion or Giant Robo.
  • from a lot of places like
    and the numerous little spots on irc...

    Why have we never seen a spotlight on places like em or the digital fansub movement as a whole?
  • >As for Cowboy BeBop, I have a hard time believing that there won't be a lot of snips here and there, that's not counting what has to be cut for time slot.

    Haven't seen Coyboy Bebop, but was really surprised when they mentioned Kenshin. It's a top quality series, and I'm very glad that CN is considering airing it, but there is quite a lot of violence, especially in the OAV. CN would have to do a lot of editing, more than they did for Tenchi.

  • In my opionion, the best Anime for street reaceing fans (like there is must of a choice) is Initial-D. Anyone ever heard of it? Prolly not since, I believe, you can only get it in fansub (for us English reading folks). Basicly (lil spoilder) its about this 18yo kid, Takumi, who helps his dad (Tofu shop owner) by delivering Tofu every day at 4am. He drives a Torono (Imagine around a '88 Chevy Nova or a Corolla GTS, hatchback) up and down a mountian... (big spolier comeing up) It gets interesting when a local raceing group is raceing against out of towners (Speed Stars vs. Red Suns[best raceing group in the area]) and is getting their asses handed to them when a two-tone grey "86" (as in "AE86-T" frame) comes up on the leader's ass (second best in Red Suns) ... the Leader thinks its one of the Speed Stars and so starts to race him... after about 2 turns the 86 just blasts by him in a drift around a turn. Well people start to talk about the 86, saying its a ghost car.... well guess who is was? Funny thing is that Takumi doesnt know anything about cars or raceing, he just wants to finish the tofu run ;p Watch out, I must warn you this series is as addictive as crack. (BTW the series is 26 ep. and there is a second series called Initial-D Second Stage)
  • Personally I hate Toonami. Why are American's too lazy to read subtitles? More often than not, subtitled series/movies have a better grasp of the plot AND far superior voice acting to their ubbed counterparts. In addition to the fact that dubbing is possibly the worst thing to happen to moving pictures in their history another thing bothers me about Toonami. It is contributing to the whole "asian=cool" thing going on now. Everywhere I turn there are fools with Kanji on their hats and shirts or people who have tatooed themselves with "bug" when they were going for "fierce dragon". I'm still going to the source (Japan) for good anime, and if that means I have to pay more then I will. Four years ago I predicted that Asian would become the next cool is here and it is here to stay. Not bad, but American's have a way of co-opting cultures who come in force and that IS bad. This recent anime fad is just another symptom. Too all you fools who watch dubbed movies and have Kanji on your shirts (if you don't know how to read it) I say get off your lazy asses and read some subtitles or learn Japanese. Nothing good ever came of the path of least resistence.

"Don't discount flying pigs before you have good air defense." -- jvh@clinet.FI