Intel Opens Itanium Specs 68
Quite a number of people have recognized the power of open source development - Intel definitely has by opening the specs for Itanium. They've got major blueprints up on the Web. Good sign of the success of open development - but I wonder if AMD's resurgence has anything to do with this.
Well duh! (Score:2)
Misuse of the term "Open Source" (Score:1)
Re:Open source? More journalist garbage. (Score:1)
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Re:Open source? More journalist garbage. (Score:2)
At least the CNet journalist didn't actually claim that Intel was "open sourcing" the Itanium itself - just that it was being friendly to open source development for the Itanium by releasing specs.
Pity I can't say the same for /. -- "Intel Open Sources Itanium". In the headline of all places!
Oddly enough, even the usually savvy The Register stuffed this one up too - "Open source CPUs..." [theregister.co.uk]
-Spiv.
Intel is just releasing the chip manuals early. (Score:1)
Re:Open source? More journalist garbage. (Score:1)
This contains no useful information for hardware designers. People making compilers may find something to look at, but to say that the architecture has been open sourced is simply a complete lie. Once again the mainstream media has been used by one of the big companies to spread disinformation and hype either through their stupidity or by having simply been bought off.
Re: AMD Not Based On Intel's Design (Score:1)
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They're stalling on their gigabit ethernet (Score:1)
Conclusion: Buy products from Alteon or SysKonnect.
Re:Not really (Score:1)
Re:Not really (Score:1)
Oh dear, I'm starting to trust Intel... (Score:1)
Anyway, I have to agree with those who have pointed out that Intel is being Open Source friendly. It's a rare company in Intel's position that actually gets around to figuring out on its own that trade secrets aren't all they're cracked up to be. Truthfully, one can't look at Intel as doing anything more than responding to market demands. They know that the installed base for Linux is huge, and it's going to grow. In order to maintain their position in the Linux market so everyone doesn't switch over to PowerPC or Alpha, they have to play the game the same as IBM or SGI are doing. That means swallowing your pride and opening up.
It's becoming a common thing, actually -- Lego brought out their Mindstorms sets for Windows only, but they at least don't crack down on third-party development environments. Texas Instruments found out that so many people were hacking their calculators and programming them in assembly code that when they shipped the TI-83 and TI-86 they broke down and told people how to do it their way. Why? Not because Stallman propaganda is finally getting to them. They just realized that it's suicidal to blow off potential customers just because they aren't doing it through channels.
Now if only the MPAA would figure that out and back off on DVDs...
/Brian
sigh (Score:2)
And if you want to discuss thermal breakdowns, then why bring up AMD? Their processors are a semi-order of magnitude hotter than Motorola's.
Re:Ummmm...yeah -- Ironic?? (Score:1)
What I'm hoping, though, is that peer-review will reveal that Intel has infringed other people's patents in the Itanium design. That would be a nice unintended side-effect since Intel likes to sue everyone else all the time over chip designs.
Re:Cool! (Score:1)
Was that the sound of Moore's Law accelerating?
Re:Not really (Score:1)
- have
any small tight inner loops. It's caused by bad design, horribly inefficient data structures, feeping creaturism.In the Linux kernel, for instance, people routinely align their data structures by cache line. That's the level of assembly programming I feel comfortable with. But I wouldn't trust a kernel with one of the core loops (the scan for free memory, for instance) with anything. Too many mistakes have shown up in far simpler assembly-language statements.
Besides, the real tight inner loops (stuff like memcpy() and friends) usually are already inlined behind your back, by the compiler and libc, in any decent C development environment.
Re:I think you guys are missing the point (Score:1)
Actually, I do believe that for the longest time major portions of the 386 instruction set were either maintained as a secret or under some other form of restriction. I recall Insignia's SoftWindows for the MacOS being unable to run Windows 3.1x in Enhanced mode due to some issues with the 386 instruction set.
I think you guys are missing the point (Score:3)
Up until now, Intel was keeping even the databooks on these chips under lock and key. By giving these out now, they're letting anyone who wants to port an OS to their chips a fair chance.
Now, instead of just Windows NT, Solaris and Linux(the three OS's they were supporting) anyone can go do a IA-64 port.
They were being secretive before, claiming that the data contained in those
No, they're not "Open Sourcing" their chip, and I don't really see where *Intel* said that. But they are being Open Source Friendly. Don't flame someone for making a good effort, even if it's not as much as you want.
Re:where did they go? (Score:1)
Re:Cool! (Score:1)
Uhm what's with the boxes and dots (Score:1)
Re:Cool! (Score:1)
The only thing left at Intel is marketing tallent (Score:1)
Eventually big technology companies lose their edge.
...................
This is a diabolical scheme! (Score:1)
I am sorry, but it had to be said.
Re:Ummmm...yeah (Score:1)
Re:Ummmm...yeah (Score:1)
Actually, it's patents. Intel is (1) offering you the ability to interface, increasing the market and (2) offering you the ability to infringe their patents, so they can take your company :-). Of course, I don't think they're really expecting to get infringements, but it's a potential side benefit.
Re:where did they go? (Score:2)
Yay, Um, now what would you do with this info? (Score:2)
Of what use is this information Intel is giving out?
Re:Intel has always done this (Score:2)
I do know that Intel (and more recently AMD) are able to crank up the CPU core speed pretty easily. This shows that Intel and AMD engineers had a pretty good idea how much faster the clock speed could go without causing thermal meltdown problems. After all, how come Motorola has not gotten the PowerPC G4 CPU past 500 MHz? Shouldn't they be able bump it up to 1,000 MHz or more?
Not really (Score:1)
Re:From the Intel-is-loosing department. (Score:1)
Whatchitcheeky (Score:1)
Someday. When they get round to it...
http://www.theonion.com/onio n3613/south_postpones.html [theonion.com]
Thad
one possible benefit... (Score:2)
In theory, at least. Just about any Open Source OS user has a compiler somewhere to patch up software, but most of us don't have bunny suits or a fab in their backyard...
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COMPILERS == good code (Score:1)
What matters is the optimization's !!
with IA64 being a VLIW machine (sorry intel "EPIC machine" ) these matter alot you can see the differance easily
HP realy are the guys to go to if you want the compiler to work
john
p.s. when are they going to release the MACH port that they did for validation of the chip
(a deltic so please dont moan about spelling but the content)
Don't be fooled! (Score:1)
Why? It's simple...the more people with the Databook, the more people who can design stuff with it simply by pulling off their shelf. That is part of how they have to build themselves up to the place they are this decade.
ttyl
Farrell
Re: AMD Not Based On Intel's Design (Score:1)
Actually they're not based on Intel's design. The K6 series is based upon a core developed by NexGen, a company AMD purchased. The core is, at heart, a RISC processor. There is custom logic and/or uCode that converts X86 instructions to a series of RISC micro-ops on-the-fly. As for Athlons, I'm not as sure about the basis for their core, but I know it's not Intel.
Re:Yay, Um, now what would you do with this info? (Score:2)
Feel free to correct the blind assumptions.
Re:From the Intel-is-losing department. (Score:1)
Re:Intel has always done this (Score:2)
Are you sure about this? I remember getting a free programmers guide for their 65HC11 microcontroller. Maybe they have different policies for their different products.
Not a bad idea (Score:1)
They obfuscated... (Score:1)
Re:sigh (Score:2)
So with Altivec the Motorola chips whup the x86's brain dead fp. Big deal. Why don't they crank up the MHz and whup everyone's ass (Alpha, MIPS, etc) in integer and fp? There are only two reasons I can think of: Milk every last penny out of customers on a slow upgrade cycle or Motorola engineers are incompetent. Since IBM seems to get better results out of the chips I think it's a bit of both. Too bad IBM isn't looking for the mass market.
Re:Not really (Score:1)
Re: AMD Not Based On Intel's Design (Score:1)
It's funny that the best thing Intel ever did for AMD was to stop licencing them their chip and bus designs. AMD are now running cirles around Intel.
Intel's Itanium (aka Merced) is such an awful design that HP (their partner) refused to use it and completely redesigned it - Intel then licenced the resulting McKinley (still IA-64) back from HP!
Latest Intel screw-ups after all their recent chipset failures are their having to revert to Katmai (off chip L2) slot-based PIIIs since the socketed Coppermines are overheating and cracking the packaging. Now today, Intel are recalling about 1 million 820 chipset based mobos because of spontaneous lockup and reboot problems...
Maybe it's time for Intel to try to licence some decent designs from AMD.
Another needless comment (Score:1)
Gee, I wonder... (Score:1)
Re:Open source? More journalist garbage. (Score:1)
So the fact that you now don't need to sign the NDA to peek at the datasheets may imply that Intel is getting pretty close to shipping out the Itaniums en masse.
I would just wish more developers released such information without the NDA. Especially with devices (ie, sound, video, network cards amongst others). What these companies don't seem to realize is that just having the information on how to interface to a device is only a drop in the bucket to actually developing and building a functionally equivalent device. And yet, if some companies goal was to clone the part in the first place, they would reverse-engineer the hell out of the device, and the datasheets would only make their jobs slightly easier. Plus, by the time the identical device came out, the original device could be much pretty outdated.
There was a study on a Japanese company that spent all their time reverse-engineering another company's GPS receiver. By the time they figured out how it worked, and built their functional equivalent, several years had passed. Nobody would use their product, because it was too inaccurate, and the original GPS company moved onwards to a better and more accurate part.
I want HTML docs, not pdf (Score:2)
The one good thing about pdf is it looks pretty when you print it out. But I for one never intend to print these out - if Intel's past policy is anything to go by, they will give you the official bound books for free.
Hasn't Intel heard of Docbook? Second question: has Intel good a clue who the target market for these docs are, and what their needs and desires are?
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Only the article title is bogus. (Score:1)
What they *have* done, which is unusual, is to release performance data at the individual instruction level *before* the actual chip has shipped.
Normally this information *would* be available at this point, but only under non-disclosure, and therefore generally would not be availabile for use in open source projects like gcc, etc.
Therefore the "open source" connection to this latest Intel information release is the suggestion that they are making this information *public* now at least in part because they recognize the importance of "open source" products, and they don't want the open source community to be at a disadvantage relative to those willing to sign non-disclosures.
G.
Ummmm...yeah (Score:4)
At MOST this makes Intel "Open Source friendly", but I would argue that it just makes them pragmatic. How else am I going to create devices and compilers for a platform except if I have the specs? Duh.
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Have Exchange users? Want to run Linux? Can't afford OpenMail?
What are we supposed to do? (Score:1)
I don't think so. It's like spaghetti on LSD out of hell and I can look at the blueprints but probably won't get anything more out of them than I do from abstract art.
Do I get a free chip if I submit an improvement?
Re:Ummmm...yeah (Score:2)
Of course, I agree that it's different from open source software. Intel really doesnt need to fear anything, since no-one except them has the know-how and hardware to actually make the chip.
Cool! (Score:5)
I'll tell you what I'm going to do: I've got a few ideas on how to really improve the floating point speed on these guys, so I'm gonna put together a few patches and then whip out a few chips and test 'em and see if they work. I'll submit those to Intel, for next week's CVS snapshot, and then I've got a few tweaks I want to make to the speculative execution. After I submit those patches and get them tested for a while, I'll whip up another batch of chips and put them on my website free for download!
What? I need a multi-billion dollar fab for this?
What are you talking about?
Oh. I see.
Um, anyway... Back to the Linux kernel....
Not really open source (Score:1)
I know what I'm doing this weekend (Score:2)
Do you think it will fit on a 6x6 breadboard?
George
AMD will never... (Score:1)
The loser can afford to take more chances. Don't get me wrong, I like intel chips. They're pretty darn good. But when it comes to innovation and raw performance, AMD has the top slot.
Re:From the Intel-is-loosing department. (Score:2)
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From the Intel-is-losing department. (Score:2)
That said, anyone planning on developing cutting-edge software should care. This information, which is normally protected by Non-disclosure agreements,is normally only available to approved software and hardware vendors/manufacturers. This really levels the playing field by giving every programmer equal access to this information.
kwsNI
Open source? More journalist garbage. (Score:5)
In fact what has happened is intel has published it's usually array of developer documentation online. This is the same information that has been freely available for all it's over processors. Yes intel has made these freely available online (a good thing), but even this is not new.
What we have here is a case of a journalist slapping the term 'open source' on a news item to get a bit of attention, either that or a journalist who never reads the material, some how 'technical specifications and programmer docs' has become 'blueprints', a bit a leap of imagination if ever I saw one.
This reminds me a lot of that altervista 'open sourceing' which just turned out to be the html code for a search box.
You're like a bunch of Southerners... (Score:1)
Is this the fate of the open source movement? Thousands of notices of victory and congratulations whenever someone releases documentation? As if having ESR on board weren't bad enough for the movement...
This behavior reminds me of natives of the American southeast (also known as "hicks", "rednecks", or "inbreds"). With a dearth of native cultural artifacts, they claim anything even remotely related to the South as a direct result of their culture. (I believe it's currently up to claiming all Internet traffic through the Atlanta switches as having benefited from them.)
So, ESR aside: do we want to act like hicks? I say no!
Blueprints? (Score:2)
where did they go? (Score:1)
Intel has always done this (Score:2)
They've also always said they'd release the specs for IA-64, but they also said they intended to keep it under NDA until it was ready. That didn't stop them from giving access to VA etc. and funding Linux and GCC development for it, with the intent of releasing it once they'd be releasing specs.
It's nice to see their specs are available, but there's nothing more to it than business as usual.
You mean 6 mile sq? (Score:1)
Re:Intel has always done this (Score:1)
Re:What are we supposed to do? (Score:3)
No, you go down to your basement foundry, fire up all the GNU-brand fab equipment you downloaded from the FSF, and you pump out your own Itanium.
The whole idea is ridiculous! This is almost the same kind of idealism that lead the Chinese government during the 'Great Leap Forward' to convince people all across China to build backyard steel foundries. For the more dense idealists in the crowd itching to reply to this comment- no, it didn't work in China.
It's so ludicrous it can't help but make this website look like a bunch of damn fools for even putting up an article about it.
How much of a change is this? (Score:1)
Re:Not really (Score:2)
This used to be the case, but with modern CPU designs, it is very difficult to get the instructions in the right order to allow for out of order execution, keeping multiple pipelines full, etc.
You can do this by hand, but your code won't be very maintainable. In assembly, there is a tradeoff between readability/maintainability and speed of execution. Your better off writing in a high level language and let the compiler mangle your code for you.
Of course, there are some exceptions, but compilers are getting better, not worse.
the blue-prints (Score:2)
the page, so it's not entirely misleading article.
Phew, I almost lost my faith in the journalism.