Mapping a Path For the 3D Web 156
An anonymous reader writes to mention C|Net coverage of the Metaverse Roadmap Summit, an event designed to look at the future of 3D Web environments. From the article: "While many took issue with the basic premise that an overriding 3D Web will be in place within 10 years, it was clear that most in attendance relished mixing it up as part of an august group that included Microsoft's Robert Scoble, former Sony Online Entertainment chief creative officer Raph Koster, PARC researcher Bob Moore, online game pioneer Randy Farmer, There.com founder and currently IMVU CEO Will Harvey, and CNET Networks editor at large Esther Dyson."
Ten years huh? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Ten years huh? (Score:1)
I mean the movie.
No, really!
2D + shading != 3D (Score:2, Insightful)
It sure as hell was... (Score:3, Insightful)
You will never have perfect (or good, even) pop-out-of-the-screen 3D with a 2D screen. Polarization is faking it. Red-Blue glasses are faking it. (These two are also noted for not working on some people with depth/color perception issues, and causing migraine headaches in a good portion of the population with extended use) HUD's are good but an expensive piece of hardware.
Re:2D + shading != 3D (Score:1)
Re:2D + shading != 3D (Score:2)
2*2D != 3D! (Score:2, Informative)
Re:2*2D != 3D! (Score:4, Insightful)
Focus and Depth Perception (Score:2)
One can fairly quickly tell the difference when one tries to focus on the out-of-focus objects in the scene, and they never come into focus, or everything is always in focus.
Re:2*2D != 3D! (Score:2)
The brain perceives depth primarily by taking the information that is provided by the two 2D images and creating depth. (I say "primarily" out of respect to the poster below you.) Our eyes are only 2D objects in and of themselves but they get two different perspectives of a 3D object, and our brain does the rest.
When looking at a monitor we are not looking at a 3D object that gives our eyes different images. We are loo
Re:2*2D != 3D! (Score:1)
Key word here is percieve. The brain percieves these two images as if they were 3D. But they're not. They're 2D. The distinction between 2D and 3D is not in how we percieve it, but wh
Re:Sorry, but YOU'RE wrong. (Score:2)
point of fact, our eyes are 3-D objects -- roughly spherical.
Now, they visual receptors in the back of them form what is, essentially, a two-dimensional array, and produce, in each eye, a two-dimensional image, which are combined to synthesize a sense of a three-dimensional space, but the eyes, themselves, are 3-D, not 2-D.
Your main point about how the eyes work is correct, its just your description of what they are that is wrong.
Re:2D + shading != 3D (Score:5, Informative)
Re:2D + shading != 3D (Score:2, Interesting)
I'm guessing you find it easier to play darts after familiarising yourself by just moving your head around slightly?
it may be subconcious now (and even be part of your normal routine as your walking to the podium) but it should be there.
Its like the flicker images we have seen around (like these [well.com])
There is enough information in these images for your brain (and mine) to reconstruct the scene and get depth per
Re:2D + shading != 3D (Score:2)
Re:2D + shading != 3D (Score:2)
Her naughty bits are not really visable.
Re:2D + shading != 3D (Score:2)
Yeah, but his are!
Re:2D + shading != 3D (Score:2)
Re:2D + shading != 3D (Score:2)
There is enough information in these images for your brain (and mine) to reconstruct the scene and get depth perception.
I have been playing around with 3d stereoscopy, with a stereoscopic HMD, for a while now and the effect is great, but I was thinking it might help some games achieve a similar effect if they had a bit of stereo jiggle to them. That is how we tend to walk anyway, with a sway that helps add a bit of depth perception.
Re:2D + shading != 3D (Score:2)
Re:2D + shading != 3D (Score:2)
For distances over four feet, you'd be surprised how close it is to seeing things from two different angles. Try covering one eye and looking at some distant objects, you'll see that aside from the narrower field of view, it isn't that much different.
Re:2D + shading != 3D (Score:2)
Re:2D + shading != 3D (Score:2)
Re:2D + shading != 3D (Score:2)
The other monocular depth perception cues include motion parallax, color vision, perspective, relative size, distance fog, d
Re:2D + shading != 3D (Score:2)
Re:Ten years huh? (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:1)
Re:Ten years huh? (Score:2)
It comes in the form of persistent worlds like World of Warcraft, EQ the Sims or not so persistent ones like Battlefield 2 and Halo. This is the infancy of the 3D web envisioned in works like Snowcrash with people adopting persistent online persona, avatars if you like. You couple it with ven
Re:Ten years huh? (Score:2)
You must have missed some of the better VRML "demos" - I remember one such demo (IIRC) that MIT made - a virtual museum. Using a 14.4Kb modem on a 486 didn't help things, but I remember bringing the site up, and seeing a wireframe that filled in (oh so horribly slowly) with colors, then textures, and shapes - as I "walked" through it. As a wireframe, it wasn't too bad - but with colors, textures, etc - the thing just crawled.
I'll
Re:Ten years huh? (Score:3, Insightful)
One thing that is missing is you have a very limited ability to introduce your own 3D content in to these worlds, being mostly confined to picking wardrobe and hair styles from a predefined set. If I recall the world in Snowcrash was a lot more dynamic, complex and interesting.
Two words: Second Life.
The problem, as I see it, is that these are all proprietary technologies. We are seeing some incredible things, and have seen some incredible things, emerge on the WWW precisely because even though it is hor
Re:Ten years huh? (Score:2)
Let's Hope... (Score:1)
Re:Let's Hope... (Score:1)
Re:Let's Hope... (Score:2)
Because it made money, of course! The rule is every movie that makes money get a sequel. You do that until you get a movie that doesn't make money, or until sequels become untenable. For many movies, one character is inherently tied to the movie. If that actor refuses to do a sequel, you're done.
If, on the other hand, you make a movie where the special effects are the movie, or -- like Batman or James Bond -- where the character transcends the actor, you ca
Re:Let's Hope... (Score:2)
Re:Let's Hope... (Score:2)
The movie Apt Pupil [imdb.com] turned out OK, but the ending wasn't in line with the book's, unfortunately. The best King-to-movie translation was probably Stand By Me [imdb.com] (can we ge
Web 3.0? (Score:1)
I Find the Concept... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:I Find the Concept... (Score:1)
If you don't want to use the 3d interface, maybe you can ju
Re:I Find the Concept... (Score:2)
Re:I Find the Concept... (Score:2)
Re:I Find the Concept... (Score:1)
I agree, it's ridiculous. The web already has many more dimensions than three; compressing it down to a VR representation seems to be coming from people with a shiny GPU hammer looking for nails to pound. And this meme keeps cropping up; it was circa 1990 when somebody did the first 3D browser for the Gopher space [wikipedia.org]. As now, the coolness of the idea carried you through about the first 15 seconds of use before you realized it was idiotic.
The 3D web guys are makin
Re:I Find the Concept... (Score:2)
People like Apple and (I hate to say it) Microsoft were pushing the GUI before anyone in the business world thought it could ever be useful. It helped.
I suppose there were a lot of people saying that GUIs couldn't offe
Re:I Find the Concept... (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:I Find the Concept... (Score:4, Interesting)
In the same way that 2D icons can be used to represent intangibles that the more mundane computer users might have trouble comprehending, a 3D interface would take this a step further and allow you to not only render concepts and ideas as objects, but allow you to establish a 'distance' between them. As you can move to anywhere within a virtual landscape nigh-instantly this distance doesn't serve as an obstacle to travel so much as a spacial representation of virtual surroundings. Consider a google search in which the most 'relevant' search results are displayed near you, and as you 'move' in a given 'direction' you refine your search.
The more pedantic might decry this as a pointless effort to build abstraction where none is needed, but consider that our younger computer users are probably already moving towards thinking in this direction. (Or, at least, their corporate masters hope so.) For instance, the concept of MySpace might be thought of as a virtual 'room' which a user can decorate and furnish in whatever gaudy fashion they believe might render them hip and trendy to their peers. Currently these 'rooms' don't have any tangible distance between one another, and you might not see value in a the creation of a virtual landscape in which to place these rooms.
However, the important thing to remember, is that this virtual landscape instantly becomes a semi-limited commodity. While it could extend to virtual infinity in all directions, the important thing to the hip and trendy users (travelers, inhabitants) of this user space, is their virtual relation to the rooms of their friends, and whatever cultural icons they seek to identify with. And suddenly the plot of virtual real estate in the shadow of the latest boy band's corporate sponsored virtual shrine shoots up in 'value' as the teeny boppers pledge the credit card numbers of their parents to establish their virtual 'room' there.
Just leave it alone (Score:5, Interesting)
That being said, if a 3D web is going to come out of anywhere, it will probably stem from the MMOGs. These virtual worlds have become so popular that in some cases they manage to displace the idea of meeting in real life.
Re:Just leave it alone (Score:3, Funny)
Tell that to James Cameron.
Re:Just leave it alone (Score:1)
Re:Just leave it alone (Score:2)
Re:Just leave it alone (Score:3, Funny)
Like, say
Oh wait, this is Slashdot...
Re:Just leave it alone (Score:2)
Re:Just leave it alone (Score:1)
Re:Just leave it alone (Score:1)
When they get our current "2D" internet right, I'd be okay with them moving on.
Re:Just leave it alone (Score:2)
exactly!
Re:Just leave it alone (Score:3)
Re:Just leave it alone (Score:2)
Agreed. Just look at the recent (real) funeral/memorial (and unfortunate resulting rampage) that occurred in WoW.
And, as others have said, IM/irc is another use. One of the TV episodes of Ghost in the Shell had a "virtual chatroom", which gave you an idea of what a 3D IM/irc cou
Web 3D (Score:1, Funny)
Re:Web 3D (Score:1)
3d is a terrible interface to the Web (Score:2)
Re:3d is a terrible interface to the Web (Score:2)
And frankly (though I don't like them), any local Walmart is a better walk in experience in 3D than their site is in 2D. I've yet to see any Wikipedia article anywhere as interesting as an equivalent museum exhibit.
In the way t
Never Fly (Score:1, Insightful)
People don't want to 'walk' around a store to shop, thats Why they go online.
My biggest beef with MMOGs is that I have to spend time going to and from missions. The market won't want to commute to and from stores in a virtual strip mall.
Re:Never Fly (Score:3)
You're thinking like a troll rather than a futurist. People do, in fact, 'walk around' when shopping online, and the 'real estate' they tend to walk though is their search engine(s) of choice. Just because you're comfortable walking down isles of
Re:Never Fly (Score:2)
Something like that only works if the us
Re:Never Fly (Score:2)
I completely agree with you in the sense that I'm terrified of the unfortunate new user interfaces that are waiting in the wings to be unleased. How
Judging by the previous /. article. (Score:2)
Somehow I don't think it'll be open source, if it ever gets built.
3D interfaces will work when we have 3D displays (Score:2, Insightful)
Immersive VR is doomed to failure until the interface to it improves and gets cheaper. HMDs are nice and all, but without a more efficient way to move through the scene, 2D will continue to be a more productive way to interact with data and 3D will continue to be eye candy.
Re:3D interfaces will work when we have 3D display (Score:1)
Re:3D interfaces will work when we have 3D display (Score:2)
Think about it. Your mouse moves on a desk... forwards and back, left and right. How would you translate up and down? Your mouse is a 2 degree of freedom (2DOF) input device. You still need 3 more degrees of freedom (rotation... you can get 2 of them using arrow keys...)
There are some 6DOF input devices. They tend to be expensive.
New 3D web slogan suggestions (Score:5, Funny)
"3D Web - Bringing your 5 year old PC to a stop today"
"3D Web - We make 100% use of your available bandwidth"
"3D Web - With the virtual girls we have, there is not even a reason to bother with a real one"
"3D Web - You thought pop-ups were annoying? Wait till you see 3D billboards go by!"
Bang, Zoom! (Score:3, Funny)
Wait for 4D (Score:2)
3d internet map, eh? (Score:2)
not until we get 3D holographic computer monitors (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:not until we get 3D holographic computer monito (Score:1)
I think writing on cubes would be a bit annoying.
Why 3d? (Score:2)
Unless there is real need for a 3d envir
Re:Why 3d? (Score:2)
Re:Why 3d? (Score:2)
No different, really, from the plain-old-2D-mostly-text web, where lots of potentially useful visual style capabilities that could be used to convey useful information are all-too-often used as information-free (or worse, informati
Why oh why? (Score:1)
Moving vertices around in 3DS Max in a complex model is already complicated enough, gathering data online shouldn't be.
What advantage does this bring to me? I don't usually shop online, but I don't want to "walk" through a "3D virt
Re:Why oh why? (Score:1)
The 3D environment is visually richer. Relative positioning of objects can convey meaning, and there's more options in 3D than 2D, obviously. You could simply look at all the files on your disk at once.
In practice, of course, no one has figured out a decent way to do this. As I mentioned above, it's my opinion that until better hardware interfaces show up, 3D cannot succeed as a standard interface. But just because the technology isn't here yet doesn'
Re: (Score:1)
Hey cool! (Score:2, Funny)
3d web with a 2d monitor? (Score:2, Funny)
hm.. (Score:2, Funny)
No way (Score:1)
But, no one really cares, major decisition makers at big media stick to 2D and for a bunch of good reasons.
Only some retarded geeks from Sony's media department may think that 3D is inevitable "next step" but it isnt, 3D has its uses here and there in the pages, some web content is already in 3D (if needed), but general 2D page layout will not be abandoned simply because it works so well, is understandable, si
It's not just 3D (Score:2)
One could readily imagine many uses for immersive 3D environments from remote medical procedures to collaborative architecture to interior design to automobile sales to video games to many other things.
3D digital cameras and such aren't that far away and would be way cool. I'd certainly like to enter a map address into google and get a virtual
Already HAVE 3D... time (Score:1)
This to me is a MUCH more useful dimension to add to Web content.
Ten More Years?!?! (Score:1)
Some ideas just won't die (Score:2)
The main purpose for the 3D web is advertising, passive entertainment, and interactive entertainment. The idea of a 3D google interface is a bit silly, the 2D document like interface works too well to be replaced by a 3D interface. A simple 3Dish interface is coming (already here?) to the desktop in t
Re:Some ideas just won't die (Score:2)
There is a dramatic difference between what is portrayed in those very compelling works of *fiction* and what can be implemented with current technology and even projected technology. But, more importantly, do you really want to use a 3D interface when a 2D interface will do? Do you really
Augmented Reality: a user created world (Score:1)
Hard to see the added value (Score:1)
This keeps on poping up ervery once in a while and we been doing experiments with realtime-interactive webpages mapped onto arbitratry 3d object in a themeable/scriptable environment (adding mulit-user stuff using irc-channels) back in the days when we had to transfer the stuff into the OpenGL pixel buffer by hand (nowadays you even have functions like this build into Higher Level scenegraph APIs (and - heaven forbid - Direct3D). ( description [spatialknowledge.com] and videos [spatialknowledge.com] and some
What is wrong with you people? (Score:2)
It might be a long time before we can achieve fully immersive environments, but I'd settle for an open protocol-driven explorable world on today's monitors. H
Re:What is wrong with you people? (Score:2)
This was always a big problem with the 3D environments, that it's so easy to mimic the real world, including all the spatial problems of the real world. I am not saying that 3D will not replace 2D at some point, but that point will not be
Re:What is wrong with you people? (Score:2)
Re:What is wrong with you people? (Score:2)
Re:What is wrong with you people? (Score:2)
Hiro Protagonist vs. Case: Who will win? (Score:2)
My Web is Already 3D! (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)