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Cookies, Ad Banners, and Privacy

Posted by jamie on Tue Oct 26, 1999 06:00 AM
from the C-is-for-global-clicktrails dept.
Because you're reading Slashdot, you probably know that client-side cookies are perfectly safe. They don't contain any code that gets executed by your computer, and there are limits to keep them from filling up your hard drive. Just as importantly, no server can read another server's data, each site reads only its own cookies, and you don't have to worry about privacy. If you don't want a site to know anything about you, you don't tell that site anything. Simple. Or is it?

When Netscape embraced-and-extended the HTTP spec in 1995, it was really just trying to digitize the shopping cart. Allowing a server to store just a few bits on the client added almost no overhead and it made many applications, such as shopping carts, very convenient.

Maybe it was deliberate; maybe nobody really cared; or maybe it was an engineer's simple distaste for tweaking a spec too much: but they allowed cookies to hang off GIFs as well as HTML, and that changed everything. There were probably ten people in the: world at that point who could have foreseen the explosion in banner ad traffic, yielding a multi-billion-dollar industry in less than five years.

Yes, billion -- the large banner-ad company DoubleClick merged with database firm Abacus Direct last year in a billion-dollar stock swap. How much is a billion dollars worth of advertising revenue on the net? At DoubleClick's current rate, it's about 750 billion banner ads. Think of it as four petabytes of GIFs.

And the vast majority of those GIFs just get ignored. When's the last time you clicked a banner? There aren't any precise figures, but the consensus is that the average click-through rate is dropping. Three percent click-through used to be good. Now a well-targeted ad will be happy to get one or two percent. It's hard work to make money from banners, and getting harder every day.

That's why DoubleClick, and firms like it, need to maximize their efficiency. Their income ends up depending on that click-through rate. The higher they can raise that number, the more they can justify charging their clients. Sending targeted ads becomes critical. And the only way to target you is to learn more about you.

The GIF cookie loophole makes this pretty easy. The first banner ad that your browser requested from a banner-ad company got a user ID cookie sent back with it. And - here's the key - since so many banner GIFs all come from the same company's domain name, your browser sends back the same user ID no matter which website you're viewing the banner on. Your user ID is being tracked all over the web.

In the case of DoubleClick, that's a fair number of sites. They won't talk to you unless you serve a million impressions a month - and their network includes 651 publishers which translates to who-knows how many websites. All told, they deliver a billion ads every two days.

Though the Internet Movie Database can't tell where else you've been on the web today, the company delivering its banners knows. That same company knows if you read National Review, TeenMag, or Dilbert. It knows if you're into professional wrestling or what cruises you were looking at on Travelocity. It even has some of your click history through WebMD.com.

The comforting thing has always been that, while the corporation may be able to follow your footprints around the web, at least they haven't known it's you who's making them. The disconcerting thing is, that's about to change.

Remember that billion-dollar merger between DoubleClick and the database company? This database company doesn't sell software. Abacus Direct uses databases to store names, addresses, and other information about people. In offices across the country, their computers have information on two billion purchases made from 1,100 separate consumer catalogs over the years, "representing virtually all U.S. consumer catalog buying households." Their CEO brags,

"Through the sophisticated use of state-of-the-art technologies and modeling techniques, Abacus' outstanding ability to synthesize vast amounts of data into valuable insights about individual consumer buying behaviors has proven itself to be an important marketing tool for our age."

That's why it's very interesting that DoubleClick's privacy policy changed earlier this month. Its text used to read:

"DoubleClick does not know the name, email address, phone number, or home address of anybody who visits a site in the DoubleClick Network. All users who receive an ad targeted by DoubleClick's technology remain completely anonymous."

That promise is gone without a trace from the new policy. The new policy reads:

"In the course of delivering an ad to you, DoubleClick does not collect any personally-identifiable information about you, such as your name, address, phone number or email address."

Of course not. In delivering the ad, DoubleClick just collects your user ID. It probably already has your name, address, phone number and email address, somewhere in the Abacus database.

A little further down is the portent of things to come. There is "one particular Web publisher" in their network which collects a "log-in name and demographic data about users." Which publisher is that? They don't say.

Whoever it is, you may already have given it your name and address, perhaps to register for a contest, or maybe in exchange for reading its free content. Everyone does it; it's a small price to pay. DoubleClick is already combining their demographic data (your name and address) with its own database (your viewing and clicking habits) in order to deliver more-targeted ads on this one website.

And if their programmers do their jobs right, it'll end up being a simple SQL query to join up your user ID, the name you gave the mysterious web publisher, your Abacus demographic data and catalog purchases, and the footprints you've left all over the net for the past two years, into a single big lump of your online/offline data.

To be fair, their privacy policy promises they won't start doing this without, er, changing their privacy policy:

"...should DoubleClick ever match the non-personally-identifiable information collected by DoubleClick with Abacus database information, DoubleClick will revise this Privacy Statement to accurately reflect its modified data collection and data use policies and ensure that you have adequate notice of any changes and a choice to participate."

Aren't you glad that, when DoubleClick revised its privacy statement on October13,1999, you were given adequate notice of how you were being tracked across the internet? (They've sent out 46 press releases so far this year. Informing you about weakening your privacy wasn't one of them.)

Things aren't as bad as they could be. One fortunate thing is that the banner-ad market isn't a monopoly yet. Not even close. Adbility lists over fifty ad networks, of which DoubleClick is just one of the larger ones (probably the largest).

But, when any rapidly expanding market starts to level off, the smaller and less-efficient companies get eaten. Nobody knows when the internet's growth curve will hit that point, but exponential expansion can't continue forever. At some point, the companies that can't send banner ads targeted to your community will get left behind. We'll end up with two, maybe three, meganetworks that deliver a large majority of the world's banner ads.

What can you do about it? To protect your own personal privacy, opt out of DoubleClick's cookies. Of course, this doesn't affect other banner-ad companies, who may or may not even offer this solution once they get as big as DoubleClick. It also doesn't help novice websurfers like your grandmother, who doesn't understand why she should refuse free cookies. More importantly, it can't ever be a real answer - if more than a tiny percentage of their audience ever opted out, DoubleClick would see the competitive advantage of their billion-dollar merger start to erode, and that'd be the end of that option.

What makes more sense is to close the cookie loophole. DoubleClick isn't the real problem; the HTTP spec is the problem. The browsers should change their implementation of cookies so that, by default, foreign sites can't send me cookies along with their GIFs. Why should cookies be allowed onto my hard drive if they aren't attached to the page I'm viewing?

Since DoubleClick's privacy policy claims that cookies "are not essential for us to continue our leadership," they should have no problem supporting this as the default behavior of every major web browser.

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  • banner and how to target a specific group by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @01:33AM
  • You want your lame non-graphic Internet back?? by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @01:49AM
  • Re:Junkbuster is the way to go by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @01:53AM
  • Re:You want your lame non-graphic Internet back?? by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @02:14AM
  • Re:Does it make much difference?? by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @02:18AM
  • play with them... by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @02:22AM
  • they also send banner based on the IP by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @03:33AM
  • Re:IMG SRC cookies needed by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @03:41AM
  • serious mistake here by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @03:55AM
  • Re:Advertising in general by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @04:56AM
  • Consider the alternative... by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @05:09AM
  • Re:Junkbuster is the way to go by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @08:41AM
  • Re:cookies? by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @04:31AM
  • Proxy servers are even worse by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @06:28AM
  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 26 1999, @02:36AM (#1587234)
    The biggest problem I have with modern society is this amazing notion that, as an gestalt entity, it seems to have that my desire to own a product is not the result of my own thought processes. It's not that I don't want a subscription to a web-based pornography emailer, it's simply that it hasn't been advertised enough at me. If they could just, just, just tell me about it, just a few more times, I'll suddenly want the damn thing.

    I don't want a Ford Escort, no matter how often you tell me it's stylish, I don't believe that Lotus makes "super.human.software" no matter how often I'm told. A deceit is a deceit however often it's repeated.

    Banner adverts and targetted marketing are perfect examples of this. The reason I don't click through SlashDot's banner adverts for CodeWarrior is that I don't want the blasted thing. It doesn't matter how often you deliver the image to me, I still don't want the thing.


    How long is it going to take before people stop making things people don't want and trying to convince them that they do ever more streneously...

    Will we still have a culture left by then? Or will we end up, tired of advertising, and left wondering what we had to fill the world before it?
    Or are we already there?

    When was the last time salesman spoke truth to customer? Does anyone remember?



    I am a person. I will decide if I want your product. The frequency of you telling me about it is not a factor. Learn.

    [sillywiz]
  • US by henrik (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @03:30AM
  • Re:US by henrik (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @09:52PM
  • Re:We could all have the same cookie by chuck (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @05:10PM
  • Poll Tax dodger by Dave Fiddes (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @02:56AM
  • Re:Glad I live in the UK by Dave Fiddes (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @03:09AM
  • Blocking cookies is too difficult by Dave Fiddes (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @03:18AM
  • Netscape has it! by bluGill (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @03:48AM
  • A privacy concern, yes? Dependant on cookies, no. by Anders Andersson (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @04:23AM
  • Re:Does it make much difference?? by Stephan Schulz (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @02:55AM
  • Re:... 'cuz I'm too damn lazy by Stephan Schulz (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @03:10AM
  • Re:We could all have the same cookie by Stephan Schulz (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @03:27AM
  • Re:An alternative approach by rlk (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @01:51AM
  • Re:My independant Opt-Out option by pod (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @08:46AM
  • Re:Imagine what we can do with the mozilla source. by pod (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @08:52AM
  • ... 'cuz I'm too damn lazy by Rick Franchuk (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @01:56AM
  • Big sites might choke by Rick Franchuk (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @02:00AM
  • Re:IMG SRC cookies needed by Rick Franchuk (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @05:14AM
  • Re:IMG SRC cookies needed by Rick Franchuk (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @05:35AM
  • Re:IMG SRC cookies needed by Rick Franchuk (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @05:45AM
  • by Rick Franchuk (1324) on Tuesday October 26 1999, @01:44AM (#1587254) Journal
    By removing cookies from IMG SRC tags (or any of the other methods of obtaining a cookie via HTTP), the browser maker would be breaking a LOT of sites, not just the banner ad sites. Cookies are damned convenient, and sometimes the MOST convenient way of implementing them is through a nice, clean self-contained IMG... for example, if you're trying to implement a link exchange or some other similar system where knowing how many times your 'message' has been seen is important, IMG SRC is by far the cleanest way to implement it.

    Paranoid direct-marketing reasons shouldn't be used as a reason to break perfectly acceptable behaviour in a browser (especially a behaviour that has generated a multi-billion dollar industry!)... yes, there are people collecting information about you in order to more efficiently sell you things. There's people collecting information about your power consumption, long distance usage and a host of other things too, not to mention the government going through your spending habits for whatever purposes they have (probably tax related ;).

    Having done my time in surveillance/counter-surveillance circles, I can honestly say that what most people consider as privacy is the most widely-hyped and catered-to fictional ideal of all time. Anyone can find out anything about anyone else, so long as they have the time, money and talent to do it. What most people consider as privacy would best be described as obscurity... lost in a sea of other dull, obscure people leading a life too dull to be of any concern to anyone (except perhaps ad banner people and spammers ;).

    --
    rickf@transpect.SPAM-B-GONE.net (remove the SPAM-B-GONE bit)

  • Targeted advertising isn't the real problem with data mining; it's other organisations trying to automate the process of "knowing their customers".

    Example: you visit an AIDS awareness web site, then hop over to Amazon.com and buy a book about living with HIV. You do this because your kid sister has a friend who is HIV positive and wants to know more about it and asked you to do her a favour.

    Years later, you put in an application for life assurance to cover your endowment mortgage ... and the life assurance company turns you down. Seems their data mining brought up a warning flag: "buys material about living with AIDS, visits AIDS awareness websites". Ergo, their expert system deduces that you may have HIV (a very bad life insurance risk!).

    Admittedly, this sort of abuse shouldn't be possible if proper privacy laws are in place. But in the USA, there are no effective consumer privacy laws (hence the current fracas with the EU, which is bringing in reasonable ones). Nothing stops your insurance company from buying the DoubleClick net's database to check against health risks; it's not information subject to medical confidentiality, is it?

    This is a relatively mild example of how data mining can go wrong. Much, much worse things can happen to you -- comp.risks [comp.risks] is full of examples of people being arrested and dragged off to prison because they share the same name and birthday as a wanted felon, or similar cases of public officials putting their trust blindly in a database that has had information indiscriminately shovelled into it.

    If we bring political or governmental issues into it, it gets even worse -- imagine, for example, if your local police force starts looking for people who have looked at web sites with details of how to pick locks and who are not registered locksmiths. Sound outrageous? Of course it is -- until it happens.

    Privacy is a fundamental human right; and one that is barely protected by law here in the EU, and utterly inadequately protected in the US.

  • Banner ads are not neccesarily evil by Grim (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @02:49PM
  • Re:Banner ads are not neccesarily evil by Grim (Score:1) Wednesday October 27 1999, @11:29AM
  • No monsters here. by Jon Peterson (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @01:39AM
  • Re:An alternative approach by Jon Peterson (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @01:47AM
  • Re:Remove gif cookie support etc. from Free browse by Fastolfe (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @08:54AM
  • Re:Fakeclick... by Fastolfe (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @09:33AM
  • Re:Proxy servers are even worse by Fastolfe (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @09:50AM
  • Re:Proxy servers are even worse by Fastolfe (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @09:51AM
  • Re:Cookies "only" sent back to *.co.uk. WTF? by Fastolfe (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @10:18AM
  • Re:US by Fastolfe (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @10:21AM
  • Exactly by Fastolfe (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @10:23AM
  • Re:Cookies are not all by Fastolfe (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @10:29AM
  • Re:Illustrative example by Fastolfe (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @10:49AM
  • Re:Proxy servers are even worse by Fastolfe (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @01:43PM
  • Re:Proxy servers are even worse by Fastolfe (Score:1) Wednesday October 27 1999, @09:31AM
  • Re:Proxy servers are even worse by Fastolfe (Score:1) Thursday October 28 1999, @11:25AM
  • Re:Imagine what we can do with the mozilla source. by Fastolfe (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @09:01AM
  • Close, but not quite.. by Fastolfe (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @09:15AM
  • Re:Illustrative example by Fastolfe (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @09:30AM
  • Enough paranoia already by Fastolfe (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @09:36AM
  • Not quite by Fastolfe (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @10:13AM
  • My bad by Fastolfe (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @10:39AM
  • Re:Enough paranoia already by Fastolfe (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @04:37PM
  • Re:Proxy servers are even worse by Fastolfe (Score:2) Wednesday October 27 1999, @08:53AM
  • Re:Cookies are not all by Fastolfe (Score:2) Wednesday October 27 1999, @09:01AM
  • Re:Does it make much difference?? by tzanger (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @03:05AM
  • by Matts (1628) on Tuesday October 26 1999, @02:50AM (#1587282) Homepage
    This sort of thing is made much harder due to the Data Protection Act (easy to find - do a search). I'm still not sure why US citizens haven't asked for a similar law - I guess it might be because the citizens don't decide the laws there any more - the lobyists do.
  • Re:Advertising in general by dylan_- (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @04:21AM
  • It's all about DB marketing by Malc (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @06:14AM
  • You agreed to the use of cookies! Don't complain by Malc (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @06:21AM
  • Read the opt-out page... they're targeting us! by Malc (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @06:26AM
  • Re:Busting Doubleclick cookies crumbles others, th by Foaf (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @11:48AM
  • editing HOSTS file to block ads on NT by Foaf (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @11:52AM
  • Trust by Q*bert (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @09:25AM
  • A faulty line of reasoning by Hrunting (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @04:18AM
  • Re:Junkbuster is the way to go by Improv (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @03:18AM
  • It's not tracking, it's adverts by Improv (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @03:27AM
  • Re:Privacy against whom? by substrate (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @03:23AM
  • Re:Privacy has been dead for centuries by substrate (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @05:28AM
  • Re:Privacy has been dead for centuries by substrate (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @07:33AM
  • by substrate (2628) on Tuesday October 26 1999, @02:10AM (#1587296)
    If you want real anonimity then:

    discard all your ISP accounts
    shred your credit cards
    always pay cash (not even cheques)
    avoid a drivers license
    avoid owning a home or conventional renting
    don't register to vote
    don't file taxes
    ...

    Even surfing anonymously on slashdot is betting your privacy on the scruples of Rob and co. Check out the article (just over a month ago) [slashdot.org] about maybe being able to telnet into a Dreamcast. sTp81 [slashdot.org] runs nmap on systems that use his Dreamcast coverage site. That to me is a pretty blatant invasion of privacy.

    Every time you use credit some information is being collected about you, not as a class of users but individually, its called your credit report.

    Just about everything you do can be used to track you or track down information about you (do you rent in an upscale community or do you have the upper unit in somebodies home?) and this has been true for a long time. Privacy has been dead about as long as commerce has existed.

    New technologies may mean new ways to track (such as banner adds) but the concept isn't new. It's also the price each of us has to pay due to our expectaction on getting most services, such as slashdot, for free. Somebody has to foot the bill and unless CmdrTaco, Hemos and Nate have a rich uncle its going to be us through banner ads.
  • Re:Don't like it? Opt out. by Nathaniel (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @06:24AM
  • Re:You want... Yes! by ragnar (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @10:08AM
  • A script to strip your cookie file by RenQuanta (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @05:31AM
  • Re:Discard images from different site than page? by Paulo (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @02:10AM
  • opting out of doubleclick.net's cookies - really? by Tumbleweed (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @08:40AM
  • Jam Double Click Day by myrddin (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @04:49AM
  • Re:play with them... by The Creator (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @03:40AM
  • Start complaining if you use Netscape <= 4.6 by jamiemccarthy (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @08:11AM
  • You do, however, have a cookie for Slashdot... by David Gould (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @04:38PM
  • Netscape can help by Neph (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @06:57AM
  • Re:Netscape can help by Neph (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @10:54AM
  • Update (Re:Netscape can help) by Neph (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @11:02AM
  • Re:Cookies "only" sent back to *.co.uk. WTF? by Rasputin (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @06:49AM
  • www.junkbuster.com (Score:3)

    by LizardKing (5245) on Tuesday October 26 1999, @01:50AM (#1587310) Homepage
    The junkbuster is a proxy that filters banner ads, cookies, etc based on simple regular expression like syntax. The default blocklist filters out pretty much all the crud out there, making for faster downloads.


    Chris Wareham
  • Re:Does it make much difference?? by Darchmare (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @09:39AM
  • Is it paranoia if everyone is out to get you? by Francisco (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @02:24AM
  • A little dash of perl... by httptech (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @02:36AM
  • An alternative approach by Sesse (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @01:39AM
  • Re:An alternative approach by Sesse (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @01:58AM
  • Use auto proxy config to black hole ad cookies! by jlv (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @05:04AM
  • Re:Junkbuster is the way to go by andrew cooke (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @05:33AM
  • by davecb (6526) on Tuesday October 26 1999, @04:33AM (#1587318) Homepage Journal

    It's not the ads, it's the information you can gather. Let me give an example of the kind of thing you can find with an sql join.

    Once upon a time, my employer did library systems and drugstore systems. In the drugstore system, customer adresses & phone numbers were protected, but they weren't protected in the library system

    So a user selected for people who had a perscription for birth-control pills in the drugstore database, and joined for matching names in the library database. This gave him names and adresses, which he filtered to get ones nearby.

    Anyone want to guess what he was planning to "sell" the selected customers?

    ---dave
  • Ach - starting to not care anymore by gelfling (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @09:51AM
  • Just the way things are. by AdamT (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @01:45AM
  • neat tips with firewall chains by petrov (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @12:37PM
  • Re:Why opt out? Do it hacker-style... by Koatdus (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @08:48AM
  • Re:Imagine what we can do with the mozilla source. by waldoj (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @05:25AM
  • Block 'em out! by Colitis (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @08:49AM
  • Stop complaining if you use Netscape by xkahn (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @04:41AM
  • Re:Pop-ups are what i don't like by jiTo (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @07:13AM
  • Re:IMG SRC cookies needed by philg (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @04:51AM
  • Is it really a problem? by Spaceman7 (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @10:00AM
  • Deleting the cookie by sandler (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @04:15AM
  • Re:Don't like it? Opt out. by kenzoid (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @05:04AM
  • Teensy Tiny Factual Error by Groogroo (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @07:00AM
  • AtGuard (Was Re:A correction and my experience) by joneshenry (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @04:31AM
  • DoubleClick tracking from pages without ads by rst (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @03:14AM
  • They make life easy though... by OnyxRaven (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @05:33PM
  • Re:Why opt out? Do it hacker-style... by NYC (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @03:33AM
  • Re:Edit your cookies.txt regularly by seeken (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @02:48AM
  • No banner ads == No Slashdot!! by ToastyKen (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @12:10PM
  • SOLUTION by Duckie01 (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @04:48PM
  • *You* I trust. But not everyone. by mcglk (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @09:00AM
  • Why this doesn't work by Tool-Man (Score:1) Wednesday October 27 1999, @02:30AM
  • by SurfsUp (11523) on Tuesday October 26 1999, @04:42AM (#1587341)
    The browsers should change their implementation of cookies so that, by default, foreign sites can't send me cookies along with their GIFs

    A simpler solution is to disable cookies in the browser. Netscape at least has a setting for that

    With Mozilla we can do what we want. Need to change the way cookies are handled? Go ahead - you've got the source. Want to build Junkbuster right in? Suit yourself. How about a random cookie feature - where you accept the cookie, but you return some fictional person's data... hey, if you implement that, I for one will use your patch.
  • Frames instead of GIFs by Col. Klink (retired) (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @03:25AM
  • Re:cookies? by arivanov (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @02:20AM
  • Re:No; monsters here. by flanker (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @05:35AM
  • Excellent article by mattc (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @04:43AM
  • Re:Junkbuster! by Cadaver (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @06:51AM
  • Re:Advertising in general by Cadaver (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @07:07AM
  • by jetson123 (13128) on Tuesday October 26 1999, @02:07AM (#1587348)
    If you make all cookies per-session, you get almost all the benefits of cookies without the long-term tracking.

    How do you do that? I run a Perl script nightly on Windows and UNIX that removes all cookies that I don't want. An even simpler approach is to make your cookies file read-only (edit it beforehand and leave in it only the cookies you like) or replace it with an empty directory (no persistent cookies at all).

    Why should you be concerned about long-term tracking? I think it will only be a matter of time until life insurance, credit card companies, employers, and health insurance companies use your purchasing and browsing data to assign you to risk groups. And all of that will happen with automated data mining techniques, so there will be little cause to claim discrimination if the neural network classifier doesn't like you. It's not that I'm a particularly high risk to insurers, I just don't want to feel that my health insurance company is looking over my shoulder every time I order a pizza with extra cheese.

    With per-session cookies, advertisers get some data, but they can't correlate it easily with personal information. That seems like a good compromise to me.

  • Re:cookies? are you insane? by meme (Score:1) Friday October 29 1999, @06:50PM
  • Re:You want your lame non-graphic Internet back?? by wakebrdr (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @06:09AM
  • Re:I use AtGuard by Robotech_Master (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @07:54AM
  • Re:IMG SRC cookies needed by doom (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @02:30PM
  • Unamerican Activities by doom (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @03:43PM
  • Sorry, You or dead wrong !! by ja (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @06:37AM
  • ranting about web browsers by mcc (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @03:34AM
  • Re:ranting about web browsers by mcc (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @05:49AM
  • by Helge Hafting (14882) on Tuesday October 26 1999, @01:25AM (#1587357)
    Junkbuster discards all cookies, except from those places I want them, such as slashdot. Most other places that require cookies aren't interesting enough, so they loose me. Junkbuster also kills those stupid banner ads. :-)

    A simpler solution is to disable cookies in the browser. Netscape at least has a setting for that.
  • Re:Stop complaining if you use Netscape by Gerv (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @07:39AM
  • Re:Registered Opt-Outer by breser (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @03:08PM
  • Re:YEAH, BUT YOU HAVE TO DO THIS WITH EVERY COMPUT by breser (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @03:12PM
  • Not only GIF's by wintahmoot (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @06:12AM
  • Other nasty sites, and one tactic. by Lumpish Scholar (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @05:43AM
  • /. and freshmeat are blocked by junkbuster by Wee (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @05:35AM
  • Re:Does it make much difference?? by Stormgren (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @05:34AM
  • Re:Discard images from different site than page? by jbm (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @05:39PM
  • excite by lee (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @03:58AM
  • Re:anonymous is best by Imperator (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @01:54AM
  • Junkbuster is an HTTP proxy that can filter out ad banenrs, cookies, referers, and other things that you find objctionable.

    The original: http://www.junkbuster.com/ [junkbuster.com]

    The version I use: http://www.waldherr.org/junkbuster/ [waldherr.org]

    I prefer the latter because, well, look at the site and you'll see. Regardless, I urge you to install and use it.

  • Reverse Polish notation for MacOS by Pope (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @04:20AM
  • Re:ranting about web browsers by Pope (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @04:42AM
  • one word by tweek (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @03:52AM
  • Illustrative example by platypus (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @03:06AM
  • Re:Illustrative example by platypus (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @10:10AM
  • Re:Illustrative example by platypus (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @11:25AM
  • addendum by platypus (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @11:36AM
  • Re:Edit your cookies.txt regularly by ashpool7 (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @04:57AM
  • Naviant - perhaps scarier? by ShannonClark (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @08:18AM
  • This is "insightfull"??? by FatSean (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @04:37AM
  • Wouldn't work by Anomie-ous Cow-ard (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @05:46PM
  • Re:Don't like it? Opt out. by QuMa (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @10:11AM
  • Discard images from different site than page? by Stephen (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @01:52AM
  • Re:Junkbuster is the way to go by Stephen (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @02:29AM
  • Re:Does it make much difference?? by Ratface (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @02:04AM
  • Re:Poll Tax dodger by Ratface (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @02:59AM
  • by Ratface (21117) on Tuesday October 26 1999, @01:32AM (#1587385) Homepage Journal
    I have read the article and I understand all the concepts presented. However I'm still having a hard time convincing myself that this is something I should be worried about.

    Y'see I don't particularly mind seeing banner ads. Hell, I even click through occasionally. I completely sympathise with those who hate banner ads however, especially on the grounds of bandwidth.

    However opting out of DoubleClick's system isn't going to stop you from receiving banner ads. It just means that they won't be able to serve you the banner ads that their system thinks you will be most interested in.

    At the same time, there are commercial organisations collecting and storing information about my habits every day - supermarket club-cards, Visa spending patterns, online book purchases etc. I truly hope that for the most part they are doing so, in order to learn more about my habits as one of their many customers. To be honest, unless they start sending me unsolicited spam, I don't find it too much of a hassle.

    I also sometimes think it must be quite amusing, as I live a fairly unconventional lifestyle.

    I spent a few years hiding from all the lists I could. I was avoiding the "poll tax" in England. Every 6 months I moved house, I worked so I wouldn't be on the unemployment register, I never filled in official forms.

    The tactic worked, but it was hard work. It also meant no credit, difficulty getting banking facilities, difficulty getting utilities connected when I moved house - everything was a lot of hassle. In the end the Poll Tax went away and I was able to come back into normal life and start building up a credit rating etc. Much easier to manage life.

    In short - I understand people's privacy concerns, but how serious is it really, to have targeted advertising pointed in your direction??

  • Heavily Targetted Ad by Vulpine (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @03:56AM
  • Re:Netscape can help by Jahf (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @07:27AM
  • Re:cookie filter? by Jahf (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @07:36AM
  • Re:Netscape can help by Jahf (Score:1) Wednesday October 27 1999, @09:36AM
  • New twist on cookies and doubleclick from NYTimes by gbroiles (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @08:46PM
  • Re:anonymous is best by Gid1 (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @01:46AM
  • Re:anonymous is best by Gid1 (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @02:05AM
  • Re:cookies? by Zoltar (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @04:53AM
  • Re:You want your lame non-graphic Internet back?? by Zoltar (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @08:33AM
  • Two amazing tools for windows users by Merk (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @06:35AM
  • Re:Pop-ups are what i don't like by Ruddigger (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @02:09PM
  • Simple Solution by delirium_9 (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @05:00AM
  • Re:Does it make much difference?? by GregWebb (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @02:37AM
  • by Xenocide (26462) on Tuesday October 26 1999, @03:59AM (#1587399)
    There is a community maintained Junkbuster [waldherr.org] blocklist here [waldherr.org]. (The blocklist is the list of regular expressions for all blocked site's banner ads). Put a wget command into your cron and you won't need to worry about updating your blockfile when banner ads are created or changed.

    There is also a nice URL [junkbuster.com] to verify that you are runing the proxy correctly, and displays the loaded blocklist and configuration. It works great as a home page.

    I've been using this setup for quite a long time and I am very happy with the results. The browsing time is greatly increased and without the clutter.

  • Re:You want your lame non-graphic Internet back?? by Basje (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @02:13AM
  • Re:You want your lame non-graphic Internet back?? by Basje (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @02:30AM
  • Re:Discard images from different site than page? by spodpit (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @03:19AM
  • Cookies are not all by sporty (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @04:29AM
  • Re:Cookies are not all by sporty (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @06:12PM
  • Re:Junkbuster is the way to go by Nodatadj (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @03:00AM
  • Re:Slashdot Cookie by freakho (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @06:34AM
  • Monetary advantage.. by ghazban (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @01:25AM
  • This is precisely why I routinely ignore that "# This is a generated file! Do not edit." at the top of the cookies.txt file. Once every several weeks I go in and clean house.

    Cleaning out this file does a couple of things for my peace of mind. 1) It screws with the statistics of all those places that use cookies for tracking me. 2) It clears out potentially percievably incriminating data if my employer were to decide to hire web-Nazi's to see what people are doing on company computers even in their off hours. If I ever want somebody to know what I've seen on the net I'll tell them myself.

    --

  • Rob's rich uncle by Wonko42 (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @07:49AM
  • Privacy against whom? by RasmusKaj (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @02:42AM
  • Cleaning cookie file by MrChips (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @07:03AM
  • Re:play with them... by henley (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @05:12AM
  • Just why I use cookiepecker by beoneel (Score:1) Wednesday October 27 1999, @01:10AM
  • Re:anonymous is best by Mithy (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @06:59AM
  • Re:Junkbuster is the way to go by Wizzu (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @03:30AM
  • Decent cookie handling options by dgibson (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @03:08PM
  • just went through cookies.txt... by transiit (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @11:51AM
  • Re:I use AtGuard by Paul Johnson (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @02:55AM
  • Re:Close, but not quite.. by |DaBuzz| (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @09:34AM
  • by |DaBuzz| (33869) on Tuesday October 26 1999, @03:32AM (#1587421)
    Just as importantly, no server can read another server's data, each site reads only its own cookies

    This isn't true if you leave Netscape's cookie settings at the default of "Accept All Cookies". You need to change it to "Accept only cookies which get sent back to the originating server" to prevent sites from "stealing" cookies of other sites with malicious javascript. I'm not sure how it works on IE but I'm sure it's just as easy with ActiveX giving out access to your entire hard drive to whomever wants it.

    Now, as for tracking, cookies, and ads ... I've been fed up with this for a while now. I use AtGuard [atguard.com] (Win32) to block ads, cookies, referrers, and access to most ports and transport protocols on my box. This does a few things, first is "secures" my swiss chees ... err I mean Windows box a little by allowing me to control all incoming and outgoing packet traffic (ICMP, IGMP, UDP, TCP, etc.) second, it lets me block cookies on a site by site basis. When a site wants to drop a cookie, the software asks me if I want to accept it or block cookies from that site. You'd be AMAZED how many sites use cookies that you'd never expect. Third, I use it to block referrers so if I'm at a page that I don't want public, it won't be due to someone parsing their access.log's looking for stuff. This also helps prevent any poorly written script that uses names/passwords in the URL from giving away my info. And lastly, I use it to block ads on many sites ... mainly those commercial sites (like ZDNet) which are simply overrun with ads. I usually allow ads on sites that really need the support for revenue.

    And yes, I run ads and cookies on my site out of necessity, not marketing or demographic reasons.
  • Re:Why opt out? Do it hacker-style... by Mignon (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @04:59AM
  • What if I don't load images? by Mignon (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @05:21AM
  • Linux, Netscape, and DoubleCLick by StenD (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @07:31AM
  • It's not just advertising! by Garpenlov (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @03:39AM
  • 4. Accept cookies but don't keep them. by Trickster Coyote (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @10:16AM
  • Re:Registered Opt-Outer by Trickster Coyote (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @10:37AM
  • Re:Privacy has been dead (now taxes) by Grand Facade (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @10:00AM
  • Yet another banner blocker by spudboy (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @08:33AM
  • Re:You do, however, have a cookie for Slashdot... by Zurk (Score:1) Saturday November 06 1999, @12:00PM
  • Re:Junkbuster is the way to go by jamesc (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @12:43PM
  • Re:Don't like it? Opt out. by legoboy (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @01:45AM
  • by legoboy (39651) on Tuesday October 26 1999, @02:06AM (#1587433)
    I posted about this just a couple days ago under another article... It was pointed out that this won't block ads hosted by the server you're currently on, but there are so few of those that it doesn't really bother me.

    In either \windows\hosts or /etc/hosts, add the following lines to block ads from doubleclick.net, msn.com, and imgis.net. (Add other servers at will)
    127.0.0.1 ad.doubleclick.net

    127.0.0.1 .imgis.net
    127.0.0.1 ads.msn.com
    All this does is tells your browser that those domains have the IP address of the local loopback.

    Essentially, the image will be broken. Some browsers handle this more gracefully than others.

    ------
  • by legoboy (39651) on Tuesday October 26 1999, @01:41AM (#1587434)
    This URL sets a cookie which allows you to opt out of doubleclick.net's tracking. http://ad.doubleclick.net/cgi-bin/optout? [doubleclick.net]

    ------
  • What browsers should do by ebcdic (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @04:00AM
  • Re:Poll Tax dodger by Pentagram (Score:1) Wednesday October 27 1999, @04:19AM
  • Simple effective solution : filter it away ! by BigJim.fr (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @02:07AM
  • Fakeclick... by Hobbex (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @03:14AM
  • by dlc (41988) <[gro.toorneves] [ta] [cld]> on Tuesday October 26 1999, @04:26AM (#1587440) Homepage

    Why bother with letter DoubleClick decide to remove their cookies? Do it yourself! In WebTechniques [webtechniques.com], Randal Schwartz [stonehenge.com] wrote an Anonymizing Proxy server in Perl that can run as a console app in the background that you can use to strip out all your cookies (as he wrote it), or, with a slight modification, you can have it strip out only DoubleClicks's cookies.

    The original column is at http://www.stonehenge.com /merlyn/WebTechniques/col11.html [stonehenge.com] (code here [stonehenge.com]), and he updated it (a "Preforking, compressing proxy" [stonehenge.com] (code [stonehenge.com])) last February. He also wrote a "Cookie Jar" [stonehenge.com] (code here [stonehenge.com]) application that can be used for the same purpose.

    They all run on *nix, of course, but I have gotten the original proxy server running on a Win95 box and on WinNT boxes using ActivePerl.

    Check it out. Take control for yourself--don't rely on their ridiculous "opt-out" option. Fight back.

    darren

  • Re:lynx is the way to go! by galadriel (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @11:43AM
  • Slashdot Cookie by _Sprocket_ (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @06:07AM
  • Adds at Net Speed by _Sprocket_ (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @06:45AM
  • Registered Opt-Outer by _Sprocket_ (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @09:12AM
  • Re:Pokemon card marketing stealthy? I think not. by Chandon Seldon (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @01:12PM
  • Re:Advertising in general by EasyTarget (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @03:13AM
  • If you use windows, try WebWasher by EasyTarget (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @02:38AM
  • YEAH, BUT YOU HAVE TO DO THIS WITH EVERY COMPUTER. by laetus (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @04:38AM
  • Re:Proof by Mr. Slippery (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @02:57PM
  • Re:No; monsters here. by Mr. Slippery (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @07:17AM
  • Re:IMG SRC cookies needed by Mr. Slippery (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @07:37AM
  • Re:You want your lame non-graphic Internet back?? by Mr. Slippery (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @08:14AM
  • Re:Why's Everyone So Concerned about Privacy? by Mr. Slippery (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @09:17AM
  • Too Much Tracking, Yahoo! Policy by Evil Greeb (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @05:03AM
  • Re:Slashdot Cookie by MtnMan1021 (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @11:24AM
  • Remove gif cookie support etc. from Free browsers? by divec (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @01:33AM
  • A Possible Featrue by wrexsoul (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @08:18PM
  • Good Point by Hard_Code (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @03:48AM
  • cookies? They might be spying by BradyB (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @01:35AM
  • Re:Netscape 4.61 (Linux) and Cookies by BradyB (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @03:33AM
  • how this affects "late night" surfing by thryllkill (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @03:27AM
  • Re:Cookies "only" sent back to *.co.uk. WTF? by ukpyr (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @06:12AM
  • Re:No monsters here. by ukpyr (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @06:34AM
  • FREEDOM.NET by Silent Node (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @11:45AM
  • What I Do... by CrayDrygu (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @02:28AM
  • Is it paranoia.../who's out to get you? by superape23 (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @11:51AM
  • by teraflop user (58792) on Tuesday October 26 1999, @02:16AM (#1587467)
    Is it my imagination, or has it become more and more difficult to turn off image loading in browsers since the advent of banner ads. Does it require the imagination of a conspiracy theorist to suspect that maybe, just maybe, Netscape and Microsoft were influenced in hiding this option?

    Think what we will be able to do with the final mozilla code though:

    1. Refuse any cookie not coming from the same IP as the topmost frame. (The current Netscape cookie filter only picks out cookies sent from one site to be read by another IIRC).
    2. Refuse cookies attached to gifs.
    3. Refuse gifs from different IPs from the surrounding page.
    4. Buttons on the toolbar to turn these on and off, so Slashdot can still earn add revenue! Maybe even a db of sites from which we are happy to have ads.

    Oh, for more coding time and less projects to work on!

  • Re:Consider the alternative... by radja (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @05:41AM
  • Re:No monsters here. by mochaone (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @07:41AM
  • RobLimo and Hemos Suck by mochaone (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @07:57AM
  • My independant Opt-Out option by Lev_Arris (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @01:47AM
  • We could all have the same cookie by semprebon (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @03:10AM
  • cookies? by monstar (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @01:21AM
  • Re:cookies? by monstar (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @02:30AM
  • Re:You want your lame non-graphic Internet back?? by monstar (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @02:33AM
  • Re:cookies? by monstar (Score:1) Wednesday October 27 1999, @02:33AM
  • Re:Advertising in general by const (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @04:54AM
  • Can we make anti-cookies by Googol (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @04:42PM
  • Re:Junkbuster is the way to go by Ded Bob (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @04:16AM
  • Why is Targeted Advertising a Bad Thing? by jhutchins (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @05:54AM
  • expire your own cookies, whenever you want by A non-mouse Cow Herd (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @11:37AM
  • Re:cookies? by Cramer (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @05:57AM
  • Hack my cookies by publius (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @02:27AM
  • Re:cookies? by Anonymous Colin (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @04:07AM
  • Cookie management by DeadSea (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @05:10AM
  • by Threemoons (70070) on Tuesday October 26 1999, @05:50AM (#1587486)
    Hmmm....only problem with blocking Doubleclick cookies though is that it seems to break one's abilities to shop at at least one well-known Ecommerce site.

    From the WWWAC List, as posted by a user there:

    "I was having trouble putting items in my buy.com shopping cart. It kept
    telling me I should check my cookies to make sure I had them enabled.
    I do have them enabled.
    However, in my hosts file I have the hostname ad.doubleclick.net pointing
    to 127.0.0.1. (I seem to get about 30% fewer ads from this as I surf.)
    Problem is, buy.com is broken when you point ad.doubleclick.net to nothingness.
    I removed my block on Doubleclick and buy.com worked fine"

    I must say the all-or-nothing implications of this is making me spew my coffee.

    Comments? Technical solutions to this?

  • Privacy act Statement of 1974 by Zapdos (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @03:47AM
  • Re:Privacy has been dead for centuries by gad_zuki! (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @04:40AM
  • Notes for netscape 5.0 by gad_zuki! (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @04:49AM
  • Re:IMG SRC cookies needed by gad_zuki! (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @04:58AM
  • Re:Privacy has been dead for centuries by gad_zuki! (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @06:48AM
  • Poltical campaign advertising by anonymous cowerd (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @05:12PM
  • Disable cookies from certain servers? by supz (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @12:41PM
  • Re:Does it make much difference?? by shockwaverider (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @01:59AM
  • Re:Poll Tax dodger by shockwaverider (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @05:15AM
  • Re:Roits (OT) by shockwaverider (Score:1) Wednesday October 27 1999, @12:27AM
  • Roits (OT) by zantispam (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @06:05AM
  • Re:IMG SRC cookies needed by zantispam (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @06:13AM
  • Re:/. and freshmeat are blocked by junkbuster by Gunzour (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @10:25AM
  • Re:Registered Opt-Outer by andkaha (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @11:09PM
  • Blocking Cookies by Oceanic (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @06:07PM
  • Re:Glad I live in the UK by lovebyte (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @03:03AM
  • cookie filter? by kootch (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @06:49AM
  • Re:Does it make much difference?? by deefer (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @03:43AM
  • I can think of only one good extention to this.... by DebtAngel (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @02:53PM
  • Horrors! by kervina (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @04:21AM
  • Anything for the Mac side? by DorkyGirl (Score:1) Wednesday October 27 1999, @11:05AM
  • Re:Fakeclick... by jkorty (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @05:32AM
  • Re:Proof by Money__ (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @02:12PM
  • simple cookie defeat by Niko. (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @06:01AM
  • Re:Poll Tax dodger by jsm2 (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @03:12AM
  • No; monsters here. by jsm2 (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @03:16AM
  • Re:You want your lame non-graphic Internet back?? by jsm2 (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @03:24AM
  • Re:No; monsters here. by jsm2 (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @05:04AM
  • Keep in mind what advertising is... by god_of_the_machine (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @06:18AM
  • Re:Why opt out? (How 'bout this one?) by mcrandello (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @03:58AM
  • What scares me here in the US... by mcrandello (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @04:54AM
  • Re:Jam Double Click Day by mcrandello (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @05:07AM
  • Re:What scares me here in the US... by mcrandello (Score:1) Wednesday October 27 1999, @03:21AM
  • Re:Advertising in general by Dirtside (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @12:03PM
  • Netscape 4.61 (Linux) and Cookies by hvoss (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @02:04AM
  • Re:Poll Tax dodger by Rogain (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @10:25AM
  • Re:How to pollute the database, decrease clickthru by whocares (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @01:14PM
  • Re:Why's Everyone So Concerned about Privacy? by whocares (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @01:28PM
  • Re:What scares me here in the US... by whocares (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @01:34PM
  • Re:Junkbuster is the way to go by CvD (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @01:58AM
  • Let's move this discussion to Cosource.com by lucas_gonze (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @10:50AM
  • A rose by any other name . . . by acarlisle (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @07:26AM
  • Re:Glad I live in the UK by dingbat_hp (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @02:59AM
  • Re:Proxy servers are even worse by dingbat_hp (Score:1) Wednesday October 27 1999, @01:12AM
  • Re:Proxy servers are even worse by dingbat_hp (Score:1) Thursday October 28 1999, @01:18AM
  • Re:Junkbuster is the way to go by dingbat_hp (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @01:47AM
  • Re:cookies? (Score:3)

    by dingbat_hp (98241) on Tuesday October 26 1999, @02:05AM (#1587533) Homepage

    Ignorance, fear and unjustified paranoia mainly.

    Time was when cookies just applied to a single site. What this fine article points out is that this is no longer true. The vendors of banner ads can now not only tell that I read Slashdot, but also that I read other sites AND they'll know that it's the same user agent who reads both Slashdot and UFO review, or who regularly reads content from 15 different sites about PalmPilots. This is much more commercially valuable information than simple being a Slashdot reader.

    Weblog and magazine sites aren't the best place to sell banner ads. Lovely sites, but their catchment is just too broad. A real killer for banner ads would be technology that hits me with cigar ads on the prestigious Salon site, because it also knows that my browser visits regularly visits humidor.com.

    Assuming that they'll do the things most profitable to them, chances are that the banner ad companies will use this information to send more specifically targetted banners. This isn't a bad thing overall. It probably means that when I read Slashdot in a year's time, I'll see the Linux banners replaced by golf club banners, because I'm not a Linux person but I do play an awful lot of golf. Is decoupling the banner ad from its host site context such a bad thing ? I think not.

    Expect also to see cheap banner ad rates for small specialist sites like golf and cigars. They're not feeding the banners to make revenue, they're doing it to catch demographics. We're already seeing many kid's sites with on-line games, that are just there to catch information on who has kids and who is worth targetting with toy adverts. Imagine that being used to sell you kid's toys when you're browsing Slash, because months back it found you had a couple of pokemon-crazed offspring.

    OTOH - If you're feeling paranoid, consider what a malicious ad server company could do with a cross reference of those browsers that regularly access both Church News and World Of Pron, or Accountancy Online and the Lose-Your-Shirt Casino. Remember too that "media" companies often extend from gutter tabloids to market research and new media companies. Now that makes me uneasy.

  • Re:Does it make much difference?? by Harri (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @10:51PM
  • The REAL problem here.... by hdj jewboy (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @01:59AM
  • A marketers perspective by Kairn (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @05:18AM
  • gifs are not alone by kappa (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @02:41AM
  • Re:play with them... by kappa (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @02:49AM
  • What I do. by Ky'dishar (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @07:46AM
  • IE does exactly that by Ky'dishar (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @07:59AM
  • Re:IMG SRC cookies needed by guardian-ct (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @04:36AM
  • Re:Consider the alternative... by guardian-ct (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @06:05AM
  • Pokemon card marketing stealthy? I think not. by guardian-ct (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @06:22AM
  • Re:Slashdot Cookie by guardian-ct (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @06:49AM
  • Been there, done that. by guardian-ct (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @08:53AM
  • Re:Trust by guardian-ct (Score:1) Thursday October 28 1999, @10:36AM
  • Re:Pokemon card marketing stealthy? I think not. by guardian-ct (Score:1) Thursday October 28 1999, @10:50AM
  • Re:Fakeclick... by guardian-ct (Score:1) Tuesday November 09 1999, @09:36AM
  • Banner ads are not neccesary evil by guardian-ct (Score:1) Tuesday November 09 1999, @10:11AM
  • I give up... Banner ads are neccesary evil by guardian-ct (Score:1) Tuesday November 09 1999, @10:25AM
  • Re:You want your lame non-graphic Internet back?? by guardian-ct (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @05:00AM
  • Re:Why opt out? (How 'bout this one?) by guardian-ct (Score:2) Tuesday October 26 1999, @05:24AM
  • Re:/. and freshmeat are blocked by junkbuster by guardian-ct (Score:2) Thursday October 28 1999, @10:01AM
  • by guardian-ct (105061) on Tuesday October 26 1999, @04:23AM (#1587554)
    You don't get cookies from GIFs if you leave the graphics off. The sites you go to, can still track you, even without using cookies. Some shopping (and other) sites use strange URLs, that include what looks like some random garbage in the middle. That random garbage is equivalent to a cookie, and can be used to track and "shopping cart" a user. In some cases it is now Impossible to opt out of the tracking mechanism without specific knowledge of how the URL cloaking for the site works. Some have put the "URL-based cookie" between "[]"s, and can be disabled by editting the URLs by hand (rt-click, Copy Link Location, paste into Location box of browser, edit URL in location box to remove ID information, hit enter) Others encode the entire URL, including the filename, in the random string, and the site isn't usable without the tracking information included.

    Welcome to the well-tracked world of the URL. It takes a great deal of time and effort to avoid tracking. If you want to avoid being tracked, you always have to examine the URL carefully BEFORE you click it.

    If the medium is the message, why does the Direct Marketing Association require the target to send a request by US mail, in order to be put on the Telephone Preference Service? It's called cost-shifting by privacy advocates, and good business by the DMA.
  • by guardian-ct (105061) on Tuesday October 26 1999, @03:56AM (#1587555)
    As Sun's CEO, (Scott McNealy?) once said...
    "You have no privacy, get over it."

    The problem is that most CEOs do not have much in the way of privacy, what with journalists and photographers following them around with tape recorders and cameras, and security personell protecting them from unwanted attentions.

    This lack of corporate director privacy encourages them to ignore the feelings of those who do have a small amount of privacy already, and make it truly difficult to remain unknown and still get the services provided by the corporation.

    Slashdot itself is somewhat guilty of this. Everybody knows that Rob has an email address. Most who read Slashdot know how to find it, and probably send him enough email that he's swamped. At least occasionally, he's followed by reporters.
    So, we end up with a login system that's not only extraordinarily complex and customizable, but also cookie powered and easily trackable. If Rob wants to find out what I read today, he probably can do so fairly easily. He can tell me that he's not, and won't, and that the software system that Slashdot uses is designed to prevent tracking (No, he hasn't told me this.) There's no proof one way or the other, unless there's tracking in the current Slash release.

    Oh, and targetted ads... To DoubleClick, the-dma.org, et al, go away. I'm not a target, I'm a human being, and I despise being treated as another datapoint to be aimed at. Sure, I am a statistic. That doesn't mean I like it, or that I want to be treated as one by a bunch of corporations.

    A low amount of privacy is no excuse for reducing privacy further.

    The real privacy zealots will not be posting to Slashdot, or anywhere else on the net.
  • Re:Imagine what we can do with the mozilla source. by ctucker (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @08:26AM
  • Lying to web forms by ctucker (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @09:06AM
  • I'm confused by Cactus_03 (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @03:57AM
  • Re:Privacy has been dead for centuries by Erik Fish (Score:1) Tuesday October 26 1999, @07:28AM
  • by osolemirnix (107029) on Tuesday October 26 1999, @01:50AM (#1587560) Homepage Journal
    Allow cookies in Netscape. Change the cookies file permissions to read-only. Cookies will live only as long as Netscape/whatever is running, all the shopping carts work fine. When you exit, your cookies will not survive. The next time you get a DoubleClick ad your record is clean and the system gives you a new id since it thinks you are a new user. This will not only prevent them from logging you, it will also make their database explode... problem solved
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