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UK Censorship: Demonic Consequences
from the knuckling-under-in-advance dept.
The problem is with the British legal system, which makes defending against libel suits difficult. Essentially, the defendant has to prove his or her innocence, typically by proving the truth of every challenged statement (and there are other systemic flaws as well). In such a system, putting up a defense is such a hassle - and so expensive - that settling out of court is almost always easier.
The Laurence Godfrey case was settled out of court, setting not a precedent but a bad example. Most libel cases do settle. After Godfrey's victory, now even more will.
One of the better-known cases which went all the way to the verdict was the McLibel trial, in which everyone's favorite multinational food chain sued two unemployed activists for handing out a pamphlet. Attempting to prove the truth of every single statement in the brief factsheet took the vegetarians two years. They could not afford to pay legal counsel or even to buy the transcripts of their own trial's proceedings. They lost, but the negative publicity was a Pyrrhic victory for McDonald's.
And in very recent news, the big story has been one in which a Holocaust-denier brought suit for a book which (essentially) called him a Holocaust-denier. This time, the good guys won, but only because the author and publisher were willing to spend two million pounds to illustrate that the facts were on their side. The bookstores that were sued had settled quickly out of court and agreed to the plaintiff's terms. (If you follow this case, some excellent and very detailed legal analysis can be found at a site I happen to Webmaster, in the essays Irving'sWar.)
Even if a libel suit is only hinted-at, as in the Outcast and CACIB cases, pre-emptively removing the material is the publisher's safest move. Don't like what someone says? Afraid of what they might say? Gag'em!
The U.K. needs to wise up and bring its libel law into the 20th century, or its citizens will quickly find themselves inhabiting a Bland Speech Zone. An island on the Internet, if you will, where nobody dares say anything about anyone else - or if they do, they prudently take their speech (and their money) offshore.
As a Demon settlement news report predicted two weeks ago:
"If the ISPs become more cautious over what material they allow to be published - by screening submissions or suspending Web sites - they could inflame the debate over freedom of expression or damage internet-based businesses."
Neither of which, surely, will benefit the people of the U.K.
Update: 04/18 03:21 by J : Two good commentaries today from lawyers relating to the Holocaust-denier's lawsuit. The legal team defending against the Holocaust-denier's lawsuit has an interesting contrary view in today's Independent. They argue that British libel law works, and is getting better in response to criticism. But when they write:
"...libel actions and the associated costs are part of the process of publishing. They are to the publishing industry what construction disputes are to the building industry. If the litigation is expensive that is a criticism of the price of litigation - not of libel litigation specifically."
they obscure an important point. We are all publishers in the internet age. If publishing is to be restricted to those who can afford "industry" insurance policies against million-pound legal fees, put a fork in the U.K.'s internet - it's done.
And, see also a legal viewpoint from the defending publisher's lawyers.
Welcome to the future (Score:3)
-"What?! What for?"
-"I robbed a limousine."
-"What? Why did you do that?!"
-"Well, you see, Slashdot told me to do it! It says rob limo, rob limo everywhere. It influenced my mind, because I'm so stupid to think with my own brains. I desperately need some kind of censorship to decide what's good for me. I have no will of my own. It's their fault."
-"...I know, let's sue this Slashdot thing!"
-"Jolly good!"
Sir, you are arrested for having the words "Blair" and "suc" and "ks" written backwards in the source of your web page. This is clearly libel and as such we will place you into arrest by terminating you immediately with this well-directed shot of clueless legalese.
Da Notorious Ice Creem Sez... (Score:3)
I is da famous gangsta rappa, Ice Creem, and I would like to share wit' you my thoughts on dis matter, which is of real importance to da people of England.
I went to England on my last tour wit' my crew and it seemed to me that there is some heavy shit goin' on over there. Their "Labour" government (dat is something like our own Democrat party) seems to be trying to crack down on many forms of free speech. They have this law called "RIP" (Rest in Pieces or something) which make it illegal for you to have pictures of ho's on your computer, and now they is tryin' to take down websitez with dirty pictures on too.
But this is about more than pictures of ho's. It is about free speech. It means that when I is in da UK I cannot use the web to disrespect my homies, or else the government will sue me. Back in my hood, if I want to censor someone who disses my bitch, then I pop a cap in his ass. That's the justice of da street and that's the way it's always bin. Dis new law is very sinister.
Best Wishes, Da Notorious Ice Creem
No Big Deal. Demon dropped the ball. (Score:3)
Demon basically dropped the ball.
If someone put what looked like libellous statements on a web server, and the alleged libel victim complained to the hosting ISP, you'd expect the ISP to investigate and/or drop the page right?
Web server admins make decisions about content all the time. They censor based on law, taste, bandwidth... no big deal. When you want to put up a webpage with dodgy content, you have to find an ISP prepared to publish your pages. No big deal.
Usenet is not that different.
Usenet servers are local servers. Messages are not transmitted; they are STORED and forwarded. When you request a message from soc.culture.thai, you don't retrieve a message from a computer in Thailand, you retrieve the message from your ISP's local server. And don't try to compare Usenet servers to proxies or caches; proxies and caches refresh after a few hours- with a Usenet server the messages are held for days or weeks on end.
It basically boils down to this one issue:
If you run a Usenet server, you are publishing.
And as we all know, libel is the crime of publishing untrue defamatory statements.
Demon committed libel.
And the great thing about UK law is the word "reasonable". Did Demon have "reasonable" grounds to suspect that they had a libellous message on their server? Did Demon have "reasonable" notification and time to remove the message? Crikey, yes they did. Loads. And Demon still didn't pull the message.
With a UK libel case, normally it would never get to court. What normally happens is that the person who was libelled contacts the publisher and says "oi, that's not right, remove/correct it". Then the publisher checks it's facts and, if it thinks it's appropriate, corrects or pulls the article and we all go home and live happily ever after and nobody goes to court.
My point here is that the UK libel laws don't allow you to just sue the publisher straight off. You have to be "reasonable" and give the publisher a chance to comply. Only if they refuse to comply with your requests can you take them to court.
Godfrey contacted Demon and requested that the libellous message be removed on numerous occasions. Demon refused despite these numerous warnings. Taking Demon to court was a last resort.
Now you and I know that the exact same libellous message was on thousands of other servers, but that's not the point. Godfrey requested that Demon remove a libellous message. Yes, he could have requested the same thing from thousands of other ISPs, but he didn't. He just requested that the message be removed from Demon's server, not anybody else's. Demon repeatedly refused to comply and hey presto, they got banged to rights guv. No big deal.
Thanks.. (Score:3)
Some people are instantly modded out of sight. That is not censorship. You continue to post these stories pretending that you are the bastion of free and independent thought, and all it proves is that you are more of a phony every day.
Today, it is outrage at censorship. Yesterday, it was an off-topic post about the stock market, but everytime someone shits a Lego, you write a story about it. Yup, that is on-topic.
Funny how the stock market was on-topic when all those IPOs were happening and Linux was getting validated. Now that those companies have tanked at a greater rate than the overall market, the subject is taboo. Or even better, how many stories did we get on the LinuxOne IPO? Oh yeah, but we are not CNBC, unless ESR writes us a memo on how much he is worth. I want a new memo from gunboy on how much he is worth today.
Everytime you open your mouth, you find another foot to stick in it. Three hours till the market opens and your shotglass portfolio will soon be an eyedropper.
One more thing, keep up the good work.
Move your site OUT of the UK! (Score:3)
Move your sites off of UK hosted ISPs and tell them why you are doing this. Encourage others to do the same.
Censorship vs society (Score:4)
We are an envious, unimaginative, reactive, bigotted, bitter society. We do not reward success; rather we punish it. We do not understand ideas of freedom and self-expression, but we attack their proponents bitterly.
Perhaps this goes some way to explaining how this situation has arisen. Very few people in Britain will be concerned about this; the idea that the free exchange of ideas will be curtailed doesn't disturb them. The notion that expressing a controversial opinion might be impossible carries no fear. After all, normal people don't have such ideas or opinions. And the greatest crime in Britain is to be other than the normal?
And what is normal? For a start, you should live in a small, pokey house. You should work for a large company, but you shouldn't care about your job too much. You should buy the Sun each day, and closely follow stories about the Queen Mother's health (Gawd bless'er!). You should have absolutely know understanding or interest in science. You should regard with suspicion anyone who does.
You should subscribe to Sky Sports. But definitely not Film Four.
You should have not-quite-enough money, but you should resent those who have more. You should distrust the Internet and believe "something must be done" about it - even though you've never used it.
In short, you are bitter, boring, suspicious, reactive, a sheep, and a hypocrite. You are also, sad to say, pretty stupid. Most importantly, you never let your lack of knowledge on a particular subject cloud your judgement.
In a country full of people like this, people who basically don't believe that other people deserve freedom, is it any suprise that our politicians and laws and judges show the same prejudices? Who could expect better than them?
Last thing (thanks for reading this long!):
Tony Blair, our esteemed leader, recently used the phrase "libertarian nonsense". Now, not everyone is a commited no-compromise libertarian, but I'm sure that everyone knows that the opposite of "libertarian" is "authoritarian". That word, "authoritarian", sums up exactly which way Britain is going. And I'm going elsewhere.. any suggestions?
Re:Censorship, and Slashdot's reaction to it (Score:3)
I totally disagree, because taking away freedoms is a slippery slope. Everyone's always quick to tell us how teensy-weensy their particular form of censorship is -- "No comparison at all to muzzling the people!" they exclaim.
But then, years later, a freedom lost here, a freedom lost there, ho-hum, it all adds up. Then when you bother to reflect upon it, you see just how far the bar has moved. Remember how silly and innocuous those "1001 Tasteless Jokes" books used to be when you were a kid? Try telling one of the "blonde" jokes in there at your average university these days, and if you're lucky, someone won't overhear you and you won't be dragged in front of the student judicial board on charges of sexism. If you don't think that your freedoms have eroded over the years, and worse, if you think that it only happens in "Big Story" cases that you hear about, rather than a gradual erosion over time due to tiny things you never even thought twice about, you just haven't been paying attention.
Cheers,
ZicoKnows@hotmail.com
Censorship, and Slashdot's reaction to it (Score:4)
The way that some posters' writings are automatically shoved to -2, even when marked up by moderators, Slashdot seems to be engaging in a double standard when they rail against censorship.
The bottom line is that it's mighty easy to wave the free speech flag, but pretty meaningless if you aren't willing to stick up for it, even in cases whereby it negatively affects you.
Cheers,
ZicoKnows@hotmail.com
Who's publishing now? (Score:3)
Now why (you might ask) has an ISP been sued in that case? Well, the answer is that in the UK a precedent was set a long time ago that in libel cases concerning traditional paper published material the publisher is considered to be the writer, the publisher, the distributor and the retail outlet that sells the material!
Yup - any of those people can be sued for libel in a book or magazine.
So of course, it was a natural progression that an ISP would be considered a publisher in this case, as opposed to being a common carrier like the postal service. I remember about 5 years ago a similar debate regarding whether ISP's would have to check all the content found on bulletin boards on their sites. There was a lot of pressure for ISP's to never check anything on their sites so that they could be considered common carriers. However it seems that these days, ISP's have lost the fight and can now be held responsible for information found on their servers. Which level this could be taken to is kinda chilling - does information passing through a server (email for instance) also count as published material?
Unfortunately, the UK has a bunch of very restrictive laws surrounding freedom of speech. Civil liberties have been gradually eroded over the last 20 years, so that nowadays there is no real "right to silence", you can be easily prosecuted for importation of "obscene" material and now you cannot air free speech on a web server.
I for one am glad I moved to Sweden - which has it's own problems, but seems more open than the post Thatcher UK.
"Give the anarchist a cigarette"
Re:Sad (Score:4)
I used to be with Demon as an ISP - I gave up a few months ago because they squandered my UKP10/month on quake servers without asking whether I wanted them or not - I don't! In the process of leaving I sent a mail saying "I'm off, because I don't like this" and got a stupid mail back asking why... 'nuff said! Glad to be out, now.
At the moment the UK is not looking like a good place to stay. I think the RIP bill working its way through parliament is an evil abomination (basically escrow to screw the nation over some poxy criminals - and Jack Straw expected me to believe this!), and with censorship on the rise as well... you can hardly say we're one of the 'Net's leading countries, can you?
.|` Clouds cross the black moonlight,
~Tim
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It doesn't stop publication (Score:4)
Of course the site authors are still just as vulnerable to lawsuits as ever, but in practice the plaintiff has to find them first. If you go to a US host in the first place then that would mean extracting customer records from the US company.
Overall its the same old mechanism: censorship is damage, so route around it.
Paul.
Re:lawsuits (Score:3)
There are several problems with libel laws as they stand.
1.) The burden of proof (as the article said) is on the defendant. This is a bad thing. To take a recent example The Sunday Times lost a libel case recent when they rubbished a book claiming Trimble was a member of a secret conspiracy group called "The Crucible". Why did they lose? Well, how can you prove that someone isn't a member of a secret consiracy group?
2.) The costs are insane. In the Godfrey case he got 15kGBP in damages - the lawyers got an estimated 500kGBP in fees. This also gives some insight as to why the lawyers aren't keen on changing them :(
3.) The damages are based on whether something is likely to damage your reputation - not by how much your repuation has been damaged.
All in all not a good situation. In the US I believe there is a requirement to show malice before it can be considered libel - in the UK the most innoucous statement can be considered libellous if it is not factually correct even if the person making the statement believes it to be true. Truth is not a surefire defence either - more accurate would be "Truth that can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, and which was not published with the intent to reduce a persons reputation."
How to Drive a British ISP Out of Business (Score:3)
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Videotex Networking and the American Pioneer (Score:3)
The question at hand is this: How do we mold the early videotex environment so that noise is suppressed without limiting the free flow of information between customers?
The first obstacle is, of course, legal. As the knights of U.S. feudalism, corporate lawyers have a penchant for finding ways of stomping out innovation and diversity in any way possible. In the case of videotex, the attempt is to keep feudal control of information by making videotex system ownership imply liability for information transmitted over it. For example, if a libelous communication takes place, corporate lawyers for the plaintiff will bring suit against the carrier rather than the individual responsible for the communication. The rationalizations for this clearly unreasonable and contrived position are quite numerous. Without a common carrier status, the carrier will be treading on virgin ground legally and thus be unprotected by precedent. Indeed, the stakes are high enough that the competitor could easily afford to fabricate an event ideal for the purposes of such a suit. This means the first legal precedent could be in favor of holding the carrier responsible for the communications transmitted over its network, thus forcing (or giving an excuse for) the carrier to inspect, edit and censor all communications except, perhaps, simple person-to-person or "electronic mail". This, in turn, would put editorial control right back in the hands of the feudalists. Potential carriers' own lawyers are already hard at work worrying everyone about such a suit. They would like to win the battle against diversity before it begins. This is unlikely because videotex is still driven by technology and therefore by pioneers.
The question then becomes: How do we best protect against such "legal" tactics? The answer seems to be an early emphasis on secure identification of the source of communications so that there can be no question as to the individual responsible. This would preempt an attempt to hold the carrier liable. Anonymous communications, like Delphi conferencing, could even be supported as long as some individual would be willing to attach his/her name to the communication before distributing it. This would be similar, legally, to a "letters to the editor" column where a writer remains anonymous. Another measure could be to require that only individuals of legal age be allowed to author publishable communications. Yet another measure could be to require anyone who wishes to write and publish information on the network to put in writing, in an agreement separate from the standard customer agreement, that they are liable for any and all communications originating under their name on the network. This would preempt the "stolen password" excuse for holding the carrier liable.
Beyond the secure identification of communication sources, there is the necessity of editorial services. Not everyone is going to want to filter through everything published by everyone on the network. An infrastructure of editorial staffs is that filter. In exchange for their service the editorial staff gets to promote their view of the world and, if they are in enough demand, charge money for access to their list of approved articles. On a videotex network, there is little capital involved in establishing an editorial staff. All that is required is a terminal and a file on the network which may have an intrinsic cost as low as $5/month if it represents a publication with "only" around 100 articles. The rest is up to the customers. If they like a publication, they will read it. If they don't they won't. A customer could ask to see all articles approved by staffs A or B inclusive, or only those articles approved by both A and B, etc. This sort of customer selection could involve as many editorial staffs as desired in any logical combination. An editorial staff could review other editorial staffs as well as individual articles, forming hierarchies to handle the mass of articles that would be submitted every day. This sort of editorial mechanism would not only provide a very efficient way of filtering out poor and questionable communications without inhibiting diversity, it would add a layer of liability for publications that would further insulate carriers from liability and therefore from a monopoly over communications.
In general, anything that acts to filter out bad information and that is not under control of the carrier, acts to prevent the carrier from monopolizing the evolution of ideas on the network.
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UK Defamation law (Score:3)
Is the Off Switch censorship? (Score:4)
Arguing that I am obligated to listen to those idiots and branding me a hypocrite if I don't is quite stupid. Do you read spam thoroughly? Do you read the entirety of usenet every day unfiltered? By your argument if you don't, you're denying all those people their freedom of speech.
Re:There are ways around it (Score:3)
Re:Censorship vs society (Score:3)
We are an envious, unimaginative, reactive, bigotted, bitter society. We do not reward success; rather we punish it. We do not understand ideas of freedom and self-expression, but we attack their proponents bitterly.
Well, having lived in the UK all of my life I know where you're coming from with this rant, but I think you're overstating it, and I definitely think you're bitter about something ;)
What you're describing does exist certainly, it's what is affectionately known as "Middle England". But it's not all of the country by any means, and to say it is isn't fair to the many people who aren't like that. Britian has a problem with people like this, but so does practically every country in the Western world.
The unfortunate thing about Britain is the general apathy which we have. There are very few people who are willing to do something about issues (whatever they may be), and people don't care about things which don't directly affect them. This is probably the worst thing we have as a nation, and the reason why things like this occur.
In short, you are bitter, boring, suspicious, reactive, a sheep, and a hypocrite. You are also, sad to say, pretty stupid. Most importantly, you never let your lack of knowledge on a particular subject cloud your judgement.
Okay, this is just over the top, a rediculous generalisation and all round flamebait. Not everyone is the same, and not everyone is like this. It certainly doesn't help any when stereotypes like this are brought out.
British Libel Law is pretty bad (Score:4)
The burden of proof is solely on the defendent. And, obviously, if you can't use (for instance) other publications to back up your statement (not primary evidence) then it's hugely expensive to defend.
Directly following the death of Diana, the attempts to reform the libel law got hopelessly confused and bogged down into calls for the right to privacy for public figures.
People regularly take advantage of the fact that British libel law is so repressive to go after people and companies who would be untouchable in other countries. This effect will (I think) magnify now.
Libel, Intent and Prudence (Score:3)
Freedom to speak one's mind is a self-evident necessity in a free society. However, we must have laws to protect persons and corporations from false information.
In a world without Libel and Slander laws, the BBC, a trusted news organization, could insist a corporation, say a meat processing plant, had a policy of adding human flesh to their ground beef, for the addictive properties found in Human flesh. News outlets around the world would carry the story and millions of people around the would believe it. One can easily say that the best way to fight speech, or writings, is with more of the same. However, the corporation which has been libeled should have legal recourse to collect damages, if any can be proven.
The problem with this law however is that damages do not have to be shown. It is also unfair to expect an ISP with 10 million users to filter through and edit 30 million Usenet posts a day. It is
It also is
In this case their is a clear right and wrong. The law has failed. And should be fixed. This is where intent comes in. If an organization has intended to libel and individual or corporation, they should be punished. If they can prove that they had ample reason to believe they were not defaming the person or corporation, they should not be held accountable. There are times, however, where this law could serve its purpose.
Don't get me wrong; The law should be re-written. It has far too many amiguities and no intent clause. But it should not be killed outright.
signature smigmature
The UK, the Internet & the Law (Score:4)
The crux of the problem is that:
Apart from a very small minority, Britain, as a whole, is completely 'net' illiterate:
Only the other day, I was stuck behind a lorry on the M6 (as does tend to happen), and I noticed on the back of the lorry, along with the address and telephone details of the company, was written: "e-mail us: sales.ourcompany.co.uk!"(sic) - 10 out of 10 for initiative, 0 out of 10 for knowledge. With people like these running our biggest companies how can our society, let alone our laws change?
Blair wants Britain to be an e-commerce capital - how on earth can this happen when we live in a god-damned backwards nation, where we still harp on about 1945, 1966 and Thatcher!
Our country needs educating - which _is_ happening (but only to our children) - people that run our country, and run our biggest companies need to be net literate. Without this literacy we will have serial litigators like Dr Godfrey and his team of crack ambulance chasers suing every site left, right and centre.
The voices of us geeks and nerds will not be heard - we'll not be taken seriously and we'll be ignored. Either that, or (take Y2K for example) the media will jump on us, bastardise our views and call us idiots when nothing happens.
Our nation, its laws and its people need bringing out of the 19th (never mind the 20th!) century and back into the 21st!
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jambo
system.admin.without.a.clue