Ever-Happy Mouse Sheds Light on Depression 452
An anonymous reader writes "Scientists have bred a strain of mouse that's permanently cheerful, in hopes of better understanding and treating depression in people. By breeding mice lacking the TREK-1 gene, which is involved in serotonin transmission, researchers were able create a depression-resistant strain. They say it's the first time depression has been eliminated through genetic alteration of an organism."
Today's Philosphical question... (Score:5, Insightful)
Makes you not care? (Score:4, Insightful)
I wonder how closely depression and negative emotions like outrage, regret, etc are tied together? If I'm unable to be depressed, would I be able to care about what seems to be a series of bad things shaping the world? People I've met on anti-depressants can be pretty non-chalant regarding just about everything, so long as they're on their pills.
If you can see where I'm going with this, you're probably a paranoid conspiracy theorist too.
Re:How the hell... (Score:1, Insightful)
What about appropriate depression ? (Score:2, Insightful)
Reavers?! (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Today's Philosphical question... (Score:5, Insightful)
He was successful in college and in work thanks to these drugs, but was he truly happy without poetry and music?
Maybe Winston Smith can shed some light on this.
People are not Mice (Score:3, Insightful)
Mice wake up, eat, sh!t and run on their wheel.
Mice DON'T change the world. Mice invent new tools to save back breaking labor.
Mice don't feel taunted by the universe, to figure out it's secrets.
Mice don't get depressed because a loved one is dying of cancer, and work tirelessly seeking, supporting, and funding medical research. (then again I think Mice get the raw end of this particular desire of Man)
I am not a rat in cage.
I am not a tool to be made happy so I can work longer at a job I should hate.
Keep your chemical paradise, I'll take life for all it's worth.
Re:Makes you not care? (Score:1, Insightful)
Anyway, I know where you are going with this. I don't think it's conspiracy, I just think too many idiots are so scared of their own darkness, that they will do everything it takes to avoid making peace with it and just as many idiots are right there licking their chops thinking about the profits to be made selling people "soma".
I've come through some very dark times and I'm a pretty happy guy now. No pills. It was hard work to get through the darkness and it wasn't what the typical caffeine addict armchair psych student would consider normal, but then, most of humanity wouldn't relate to their concept of normal so who the hell really cares? But I've digressed, intentionally, and back to my point... You need the darkness and the light. Don't be scared of the dark. You find stuff there, important stuff, that no one can explain exactly. You have to see it for yourself and work it out, ultimately, for yourself.
There is a time to be depressed and when that time comes, be depressed. Don't hide from it. That's the number one mistake people make. Thinking they should be happy. No genius, if you are feeling depressed, that's a pretty good sign that you have something to be depressed about. Figure out what it is and get to the heart of it, then and only then can you uproot it once and for all.
Re:Today's Philosphical question... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:May not generalize to humans (Score:3, Insightful)
I beleive I am capable of thinking dispairing thoughts if needed, without having to be depressed. But from past experience I have found that repeating thought patterns which carry subtle emotional cues will have more emotional impact over time, which are very difficult to get rid of once they take hold.
If this is the case then it is best to have a change in enviroment and focus on changing your thought patterns.
Anyway, what I'm trying to say, think what you want, just don't dwell on your negative thoughts/emotions, it helped me through my depression.
Re:What about appropriate depression ? (Score:1, Insightful)
I'm a Buddhist.
KFG
Re:Today's Philosphical question... (Score:5, Insightful)
To quote Trent Reznor: "I don't write a lot when I'm happy."
I have a theory that says that the function of modern art is for the viewer to live vicariously through the artist's insanity. Van Gogh was famous for this. So was Leonard Cohen, Janis Joplin, Kurt Cobain, Alan Ginsberg, Salvador Dali, and Jackson Pollock, to name a few.
Perhaps the question isn't "can he be happy without his poetry", but "can he make good poetry without his sadness".
Re:It's a start (Score:3, Insightful)
You don't know many goths, do you? I think you have Goths and Emo-Kiddies confused.
Re:What about appropriate depression ? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:How the hell... (Score:5, Insightful)
So, yes, you can argue with any one model, but, precisely because of such arguments, articles (in Nature at least) prepare for them in advance - really, as much as is possible. If someone doesn't agree to results like this, then perhaps he/she just have a problem with the whole model of using animals to test human conditions; but this model has been proven time and again in giving eventual benefit to research on humans.
Of course, this result should be replicated by outside labs before we accept it. But it sounds like good research so far.
Re:Today's Philosphical question... (Score:5, Insightful)
You find that you spend less time planning your suicide than you used to.
Re:Today's Philosphical question... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not a big fan of permanently medicating the mind unless absolutely necessary... but when I had a episode of depression brought on by major illness, I wasn't thinking about poetry and music.
I was thinking pretty much constantly about killing myself. Not little fantasies "God I should just shoot myself." No... we're talking cold, calm, and consistent thoughts. Very frightening in retrospect and even more frightening that it felt so normal at the time.
Thank goodness I had family/friends to point me towards medical care. Lexapro changed that like a light switch, and the depression (and anti-depressants) are just a memory. But for some the depression is chronic and the treatment will probably need to be permanent.
And yes, before that happened I never understood the potential severity and use for anti-depressants either. Anti-depressants aren't just about turning off maudlin thoughts of missing your dead turtle.
Every-Numb Mouse? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Today's Philosphical question... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Today's Philosphical question... (Score:4, Insightful)
Well is writing wasn't making him happy, probably good that he stopped. Writing can make you think a lot about your problems, and if this is something you find it hard to handle (or you have some major problems), then it can be a negative event.
Being happy means not thinking too much about the bad things.
Re:Makes you not care? (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not scared of the dark side of me... I'm scared of the years of misery and pain (physical as well as mental and emotional) that I had before my depression was treated. I'm not out of the woods yet but I don't feel sad and in pain every second of every day. I dislike some of the side effects of my anti-depressants (apathy towards waking up at a set time, eliminates some of my creativity) but I consider the side effects a small price to pay for what I get in return. Research like this makes me hopeful towards better treatments with fewer side effects and I don't have to give anything or as much up to feel... okay.
I'm not happy all the time (nor would I want to be). I think I have a fuller range of emotions than I did before. I have a heightened empathy because I don't need to focus as much of my energy on my emotions all the time. I like being able to be sad sometimes and happy othertimes which I really couldn't get before.
Re:Today's Philosphical question... (Score:3, Insightful)
Or beter yet, a well integrated nice little drone.
Bland little drones that accept their place in life, don't make waves and don't try to get ahead in life are the backbone of our society.
Re:Why do I think about hitchhikers guide... (Score:3, Insightful)
The waiter approached.
'Would you like to see the menu?' he said,
'or would you like meet the Dish of the Day?'
'Huh?' said Ford.
'Huh?' said Arthur.
'Huh?' said Trillian.
'That's cool,' said Zaphod, 'we'll meet the meat.'
- snip -
A large dairy animal approached Zaphod Beeblebrox's table, a large fat meaty quadruped of the bovine type with large watery eyes, small horns and what might almost have been an ingratiating smile on its lips.
'Good evening', it lowed and sat back heavily on its haunches, 'I am the main Dish of the Day. May I interest you in the parts of my body?'
It harrumphed and gurgled a bit, wriggled its hind quarters in to a more comfortable position and gazed peacefully at them.
Its gaze was met by looks of startled bewilderment from Arthur and Trillian, a resigned shrug from Ford Prefect and naked hunger from Zaphod Beeblebrox.
'Something off the shoulder perhaps?' suggested the animal, 'Braised in a white wine sauce?'
'Er, your shoulder?' said Arthur in a horrified whisper.
'But naturally my shoulder, sir,' mooed the animal contentedly, 'nobody else's is mine to offer.'
Zaphod leapt to his feet and started prodding and feeling the animal's shoulder appreciatively.
'Or the rump is very good,' murmured the animal. 'I've been exercising it and eating plenty of grain, so there's a lot of good meat there.'
It gave a mellow grunt, gurgled again and started to chew the cud. It swallowed the cud again.
'Or a casselore of me perhaps?' it added.
'You mean this animal actually wants us to eat it?' whispered Trillian to Ford.
'Me?' said Ford, with a glazed look in his eyes, 'I don't mean anything.'
'That's absolutely horrible,' exclaimed Arthur, 'the most revolting thing I've ever heard.'
'What's the problem Earthman?' said Zaphod, now transfering his attention to the animal's enormous rump.
'I just don't want to eat an animal that's standing there inviting me to,' said Arthur, 'It's heartless.'
'Better than eating an animal that doesn't want to be eaten,' said Zaphod.
'That's not the point,' Arthur protested. Then he thought about it for a moment. 'Alright,' he said, 'maybe it is the point. I don't care, I'm not going to think about it now. I'll just
'May I urge you to consider my liver?' asked the animal, 'it must be very rich and tender by now, I've been force-feeding myself for months.'
'A green salad,' said Arthur emphatically.
'A green salad?' said the animal, rolling his eyes disapprovingly at Arthur.
'Are you going to tell me,' said Arthur, 'that I shouldn't have green salad?'
'Well,' said the animal, 'I know many vegetables that are very clear on that point. Which is why it was eventually decided to cut through the whole tangled problem and breed an animal that actually wanted to be eaten and was capable of saying so clearly and distinctly. And here I am.'
It managed a very slight bow.
'Glass of water please,' said Arthur.
'Look,' said Zaphod, 'we want to eat, we don't want to make a meal of the issues. Four rare stakes please, and hurry.
We haven't eaten in five hundred and seventy-six thousand million years.'
The animal staggered to its feet. It gave a mellow gurgle.
'A very wise coice, sir, if I may say so. Very good,' it said, 'I'll just nip off and shoot myself.'
He turned and gave a friendly wink to Arthur.
'Don't worry, sir,' he said, 'I'll be very humane.'
It waddled unhurriedly off to the kitchen.
Brave new world (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Makes you not care? (Score:5, Insightful)
In situational depression, e.g. death of a loved one, there is a clear exogenous cause of the depression. This is normal, and is usually worked out "solo" or through counseling, sans medication, or in some intractable cases with short-term use of medication. However, chronic clinical depression, dysthymic disorder, and their ilk are pathological. Depression is a disease. Your method works for most healthy people, but a clinically depressed patient is in open-loop mode: logic, reasoning and "working it out," as you say, don't work. It is wonderful that you are healthy and have worked out your own problems on your own sans pills, but the lives of countless people--whose brains are wired differently than you--have been saved or extended by antidepressants.
Insightful? Believe it or not, there are people who cannot function or would be dead were it not for antidepressants and counseling. Talk to people who have had the actual disease. Empathy will come to you as you grow up and get outside your own myopic view of the universe.
Chandra
Re:Today's Philosphical question... (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Today's Philosphical question... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Today's Philosphical question... (Score:2, Insightful)
As much a bug as a feature (Score:3, Insightful)
There is considerable truth in what you say. But the neurochemical aspect of this phenomenon is not the whole story. There are cognitive and social elements that are needed to complete the picture.
Much of the story has to do with how poorly we predict the hedonic value of future events. Generally we assign inflated values to resulting future happiness or sadness. Researchers have demonstrated this: we think if we get a particular job, we'll be happy. And we will be, but not as happy for as long as we thought. We think if our child dies we will be sad. And we will be, but usually not in the permanently incapacitating way we thought.
In human society it's also a very important factor in why, for example, consumerism is alive and kicking, and keeping the capitalist economy going well past the point where just the needs are covered
This is true. But I think of this as exploiting a bug in our software: we overestimate the hedonic value of aquiring something; the happiness it brings (as you point out) is short lived. But most insidious are the ways we undermine our own social contacts in order support an aquisitive lifestyle: we take jobs we don't like for people we don't respect. We work long hours to the detriment of our social life, damaging our families or losing touch with our friends.
So my take is that if someone actually produced genetically-engineered humans which are permanently happy, those humans would be even worse
Clearly, happiness seeking is a survival trait. However this does not inevitably lead to insatiable acquisition. That's a function of our massive logic and symbol processing capacity working on faulty data and producing inaccurate results. Putting a naive and immature person into today's consumer culture is like placing an unpatched computer on a hostile network. Forging strong bonds of friendship, cooperation and respect with those around us is also clearly a strong survival trait, and, if researchers are correct, is a stronger producer of happiness than consumption.
Re:Today's Philosphical question... (Score:1, Insightful)
In his case, not using Lexapro could've caused.... death.
Oh, I get it. You're one of those guys who sees "astroturfing" everywhere.
They have medication for that, you know.
Re:Today's Philosphical question... (Score:2, Insightful)
The vast majority of people in our society are, according to our society's definition, underachievers. (you can easilly figure out our society's definition for sucessfull from television, magazines, boosk, movies or simply by seing how people are treated according to how much money they have or how famous they are).
Furthermore, people are expected to accept that and don't make waves - after all, important people need people to open their doors, take their trash out and manage their investments.
All societies, independently of their political system, tend to end up in this kind of stratified structure where a minority has the best of it all and the majority is not quite that well off - this is the result of the fact that people are all different, those on top will try to remain on top and resources are limited, and it's pretty much the most stable configuration known for a society.
The only difference is on the details:
- How easy it is to climb up or fall down in the ladder
- How far are people allowed to fall
- How far is the highest step from the lowest step
- Where does the majority of people stand in comparisson with those on the highest step and those on the lowest one
Don't decieve yourself by thinking that a Democracy will, by virtue of giving everybody a vote (whose value is distorted in all but a proportional voting system), will somehow avoid that those on top remain on top or turn a society into a structure in which all have the best that can be had.
As with all human societies since the beginning of times, both the carrot and the stick are used to keep everybody marching along in synch:
- Those that don't follow the rules are treated as outcasts or even imprisioned.
- Everybody is baited with the promise that, if they work hard they can someday be the ones on top.
Guess what, human nature means that those on top now aren't exactly interested in being replaced.
Back to the OP, drugs that make people be content all the time are a great way of keeping those that take them where they are now (or as some might say, "in their right and proper places"), since they remove the motivation for trying to improve one's own life.
Re:Today's Philosphical question... (Score:5, Insightful)
That phrase is about valium abuse in the 60s, not antidepressants which take 4 weeks to begin working. Mental illness is a real illness and youre attitude certainly doesnt help. You have a friend who is sick and takes a drug to normalize his moods and you're mocking him? Calling him doped up? Gee, no wonder he's depressed. With friends like you who needs enemies?
As far as the 'kills creativity' argument goes. Who knows. I think its vastly overplayed. "Art" created by people who are depressed or manic tends to be shit anyway. The people with real talent will always shine through regardless of moods. Tons of creative people have been treated for some kind of mental illness and they remained producive afterwards.
If the normalization effect makes someone say "I'd rather do this now" then more power to them. Not to mention, depression kills, I'd rather have a living friend than a suicide victim songmaker.
Re:Today's Philosphical question... (Score:2, Insightful)
Her books are not to be tossed lightly aside, they are to be hurled with great force. But I suppose you've got to figure that for yourself.
KFG
Re:Today's Philosphical question... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Today's Philosphical question... (Score:2, Insightful)
Creative writing is not the end-all, be-all of self-expression and happiness. I personally consider myself quite happy despite having never penned a poem. Maybe writing was important to him when he was depressed, but isn't anymore; is it so surprising that after a personality change his interests and priorities might also be different?
Or maybe that's the problem -- are you concerned that the drugs changed his personality in general? The drugs are *supposed* to change his personality. His former personality was that of a depressive/psychotic, and he wanted to change it so he could appreciate life and interact in society. At least in my book, that's not such a bad thing.
Re:Makes you not care? (Score:3, Insightful)
Sometimes it's better not to care. Imagine if, like many here, you're gifted with the ability to see patterns and how things work. Apply this to everyday life as represented in /., or by working in the programming industry. Consequences:
Ignorance is bliss, man; trying to care about the bad things happening on a global scale will just paralyze you.
(Shit, maybe it's time to swear off /. again.)
Re:Modern Antidepressants are not "Happy Pills" (Score:3, Insightful)
There's a great data point that shows that antidepressants don't artificially make you happy.
They don't have any street value. If they made you happy (that's pretty much what "getting high" means) then people would illicitly abuse them.
Re:Today's Philosphical question... (Score:3, Insightful)
Feeling happy about one's position, on the other hand, can sometimes require additional experiences to gain an appreciation for one's circumstances. This is readily apparent in children. If they're whining about something or other, and instead of placating them you make things worse, they're happy once you restore the status quo because they have gained perspective. Same thing with adults really. You may hate your job, but if you become involuntarily unemployed you'll probably gain a much greater appreciation and feel happy once you're working again, even if it's back at the same job.
Nonetheless, I still believe that one needn't experience depression in order to feel happy. One may gain a greater appreciation for their happiness after having been depressed, but lack of depression doesn't preclude being happy in the first place.