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Ask Slashdot:Ergo Keyboards 264

Posted by CmdrTaco from the what-do-you-think dept.
Madsen submitted this as an Ask Slashdot, and its been weighing on my mind recently. I want a new keyboard- my wrists just aren't what they used to be after 16 hours of replying to flame mail. I'm curious what ergo keyboards people have tried. What ones they like. What ones will make my wrists last longer. And ideally, where I can find them and how much its gonna set me back.
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Ask Slashdot:Ergo Keyboards

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  • No one seems to have mentioned Adesso yet.

    www.adessoinc.com [adessoinc.com]

    My roommate has a MS Natural, and I have the Adesso TruForm. Ordered mine from pcconnection.com. It was ~$20 cheaper than roommate's MS; it has full-size movement keys (cursors, PgUp, etc.), full-size Function keys; it allows you to tilt up the front instead of the back (more comfortable for me anyway).

    Not so sure yet about the quality. It works okay overall, but my right Ctrl keycap is loose after two months of use.

    Oops! I'm late for history...
    ccg
  • I'd love to buy one, but they're damned expensive.

    Any cheapish clones out there ?

  • I dont know if I got a "new" one or not, but it was kind of expensive, and it kinda sucks. the keys tend to stick after only having it for a few months. and it was like $60.

    nlucent wearing his spiffy new slashdot hat
  • Have you tried some of the newer IBM Keyboards. I got one with my 350 4 years ago and the tactile feel is just as you described it. The monster is heavy too, easily three times the weight of a regular keyboard. The only problem is that it is a little loud.
  • Probably the cheapest thing to try the Dvorak keyboard layout. It takes a couple of weeks to get back up to a non-frustrating typing speed, but once you can type proficiently you'll cringe whenever you have to use qwerty :). Once you can touch-type dvorak going switching between it and qwerty becomes very easy - so you really aren't in any danger of screwing yourself up in the long run. Get an xmodmap for XF86 here [umass.edu]. One personal keyboard mappping I use that really helps my wrists is moving the delete key from it's place in the upper right corner of the keyboard, where I have to flick my wrist over to hit it, to the left alt key, where I can easily hit it with my thumb - so I don't have to move my hands at all in normal typing (the xmodmap above includes this - along with a full complement of shift bits - shift, control, alt, altgr, meta, super, and hyper (if XF86 supported them, I would have a top and front too :))

  • I bet it takes longer than that if you're a vi user...

    This is true. I have been using the arrow keys instead of hjkl for vi ever since, so vi is not as efficient as it used to be. On the other hand, I've been using Emacs more and more so... *shrug*

    Apparently the Navy did tests, but the chap that did the tests had a vested interest in seeing Dvorak win.

    This is also true, but the fact is that it feels much nicer than qwerty. The Navy put in an order for 4000 Dvork-layout typewriters but since it was the middle of WWII the order was squashed on budget grounds (or something like that.) If you've spent too much time reading Dvorak pages (like I have :) there is a paper that takes Dvorak down a few notches, but doesn't bother to mention the fact that all the world's fastest typest use Dvorak, and the focus of said paper is more the economics of retraining people to a new layout, not whether the layout really is superior to qwerty. In the computer age, when you don't have to buy a new typewriter or keyboard to try out a new layout, I think it makes sense it give it a shot. It's really a personal choice anyway. I use Linux in a Windows world, I use Dvorak in a QWERTY world.

  • Posted by Mr. Assembly:

    I have two, and I keep my eyes open for others. These were made in 1991, and are battle tanks. I think that they must have be used on some of their workstations. Mine is a "model M".
    I hear that the northgate is better, but have been unable to find one.
  • Posted by Mr. Assembly:

    Yes, but I get this inferiority complex from knowing that others seem to have their brain stems attached to these things and can do a zillion wpm without looking down once.
  • I've been typing, on and off, since I was six years old. I had a typing textbook, but I never looked at it. Now I'm a virtuoso hunt-and-peck typist. It's not pretty, but I've never had any physical problems as a result of it.

    --

  • I'd like to build my own bizarre keyboard, and I don't think I want to emulate the standard layout in order to use cannibalized components from a standard keyboard. How do I find out more about the interface between the keyboard and the PC, and the codes the keyboard sends?
    --

  • What works for me is going to a drug store (wally world accually) and buying some wrist splints. I can type without them, but not for long. The pain becomes a mild discomfort rather then something to make me want to change jobs.

    I like my IBM keyboard, and would buy more. (in fact I have bought more) I still need the splints though.

  • Are there any ergo keyboards with moveable keycaps? I type in dvorak, and I'm growing weary of the stickers. Half of my home-row is qwerty again, because the stickers just aren't very robust.
  • I hate to admit it, but I fell into a Microsoft Keyboard a few years back, and for the most part it's pretty decent. Overpriced? Yes. The key legends also wear off with heavy use, if you need to look at that kinda thing... :)

    Give me a nice solid regular keyboard any day - good enough. The old, original IBM PC (Selectric) keyboards were the bomb though. Still have a few.

  • Sejin Mouse. I could've sworn there was a "J-something" too. Whatever...
  • hate to repeat it but the best thing i ever did for my wrists and hands getting sore was to switch to dvorak... the much more useful benefit in my opinion than the speed increase (which was nice too)
  • the 'jk' keys are still next to each other and the
    h,l are is a similar place..
    i swapped my l and s and it works nicely...
    you also dont have to switch one over from
    standard position.. (a plus in my opinion as
    i tend to overshoot those off by one thingys..)
  • These things are hard to find, but they absolutely rule! I stole one ancient from my scool, (replaced it with my "old" keyboard) don't worry it was on a server anyway. And another from a client. (They had stacks of keyboards nobody was using anymore, because they where "old")

    I hate those plastic Keytronic which seem to come with almost every machine nowadays.

    Jón
  • You could run one over with your car and it would still work perfectly. Those were great keyboards. I still have a few of them kicking around...
  • I have a friend who used to be able to type 90wpm,
    but he got a MS-Ergo board with his new computer,
    and became optimistic about learning it because his typing slowed down immediately. I'm not sure if this applies to all people or Ergo boards, but my friend never ended up getting his typing past 70wpm again.

    Otoh, when I switched to Dvorak, I felt less effort to find common keys as my hands don't really move as much anymore. I can type at my mind's speed limit without my hands getting tired for longer. (120 wpm, but I could type that in qwerty before I switched. Less errors, tho)
  • As others have pointed out, it's a bit pricey at $200US, but my wrists wouldn't survive without it.

    The ability to touch type is a requirement for this keyboard. It took me about two weeks to get adjusted to using it. But now my typing is about 20% faster and with much less strain. If I spend more than 15 minutes on regular keyboard I can feel the strain in my wrists.



  • I remember some time ago looking for a nice split keyboard. The ideal one I was looking for would split into 2 seperate halfs so I could position them on my desk the way I wanted. After some searching I found one.

    If you have a look here [209.24.94.137], there are a list of split keyboards (the Kinetik isn't here, as it isn't a split keyboard - either is the MS one). The keyboard I really like is the one at the end of the page... They also sell a really nice chair that has the 2 parts of the keyboard attached to the arms, and they can be adjusted around to axes.

    However, I might buy a Kinetik one - they look nice. Asked my boss to buy me one in work and she laughed... :(

    Oh, on of the pages somewhere around that link also lists other types of keyboards, including the Kinetik and the MS ones, as well as some other ergo keyboards.
  • Microsoft ergonomic keyboard, which is very good, especially if you have very large hands. (As is their mouse, suggesting that they ought to concentrate on hardware...). However, it does take some getting used to, since it is quite a radical design (central hump, angled hands etc).

    Otherwise, the bigger the keyboard the better. Sun keyboards are very nice, for example.

    But most important is to get one of those strips of 2 1/2 inch thick foam to wrest your wrists on. That makes the most difference for me.

    I think it's important and that keyboards match your hand size.
  • While these KB's are completely anti-ergo 8^) I have to agree with the above poster. I've been using one of these for 10 or 15 years now and it is definitely the best feeling KB I've ever used. Built like a tank, with a very "solid" feel. A KB built like one of these old IBM beasts, but with a modern ergo design would rule.
  • I have a Kinesis Maxim which I like a lot.
    And yes, I actually do adjust it often.
    Still, frequent breaks are important. I
    try and take a thirty second break every
    five minutes.

    Best of luck.
    --
    John B. Lee
    Social and Decision Sciences; Carnegie Mellon University
  • I'll have to do a "me too" post. I tried various so-called ergonomic keyboards before the datahand, and was still suffering badly. I was to the point that 5 minutes of typing would cause my hands to knot up, and was looking for an alternate career. As a last resort, I bought a DataHand, and after a couple weeks I had no pain in my wrists, and haven't had any since.

    There is almost no movement required of one's fingers on this thing, and your hand is kept in a very natural position.

    It is an expensive keyboard, but well worth the price.

    BTW, other things that help are a good chair, a low desk (most are too high, I took a saw to mine), the dvorak layout (which I use on the datahand) and a coffee break once an hour or so.
  • An X-mapping will work except for ONE key, the comma, which fails to generate the correct code when shifted.

    So Datahand sent me a ROM to fix it. I should note that I have a DH-200 (older model.) Also, it took me a lot of back and forth to get datahand to do this. They have a VERY limited staff. They're helpful once you can get a hold of them and if they remember to call you back :)

    I think dvorak vs. querty doesn't matter as much on the datahand, because your fingers move so little in either. But it helps to know dvorak so that when you have to type on a standard keyboard, you can survive a little longer.

    Now I just want someone to build a notebook with a datahand keyboard in it. Lugging the two handsets around isn't feasible.
  • I use a maltron, and it's probably the best investment that my company has ever made in my physical well-being. Yup, they're $400. However, they're very well made, and the customer service is excellent (I have two versions of it and wanted to remap one key around, which I can't do on WinNT, which I am forced to use on the job, so they reprogrammed the chip for me). They're entirely hand-made, and light as a feather.

    But perhaps most importantly, they have completely eliminated my CTS pain.

    If more people bought them, the price would go down. If the price goes down, more people might buy them. Vicious cycle.

    Besides, the cost used to be $200, and not enough people bought them....but they had no advertising or marketing or distribution.

    Kirk
  • I use one maltron at work (WinNT only) and one at home (switched between WinNT and Debian GNU/Linux) and I have to tell you that they are simply the best keyboards ever invented. I had to completely relearn how to type, but in the process I eliminated almost all of my old, bad habits.

    I used to have serious CTS (Carpal Tunnel Syndrome). I didn't have surgery, but I did get regular cortizone injections, wear wrist braces when I worked and had acupuncture. What really did it to end the pain was the maltron keyboard....since using it I haven't had to do anything for my CTS pain...it's largely gone away!

    And, I type faster and more accurately because the keys are placed in rational places (I use the regular QWERTY-like layout, not the MALTRON layout, in part because the MALTRON layout sucks for writing C++ code because of the placement of all the syntax characters in the MALTRON layout), increasing my productivity. And if I forget where something is on the keyboard, most of the non-text characters (i.e. ()[]{}, etc.) are placed in symmetrical positions.

    Yes, they're $400. Do you have ANY idea how much a single worker's comp claim costs your company? And with new laws coming in, if anyone at your company gets a single case of CTS, it will literally cost them millions of dollars to do a RSI assessment. And acupuncture and rheumatologists and wrist splints aren't cheap either.

    Look at it this way: You're paying $400 to be more productive and probably never have any wrist or finger pain and never have to have seriously debilitating pain. Is that a good investment? Probably.

    I can write up a full review if anybody likes. (Rob?)

    Kirk
  • My preference is for the Cirque keyboards (http://www.cirque.com [cirque.com]). They make the funky little touch pads to replace mice. Their older Wave Keyboard 2 is nice and comfy, and has an integrated touch pad. it has the keyboard feet below the front of the keyboard letting you position your hands and wrists nice and flat. nice big platform to rest your wrists on too.

  • I use the FlexPro...only cost me $35 (yes, a far cry from the SRP of $399 on the web page). Looks like it's been discontinued though.

    I like it--It was the best bet for me, since my parents can't touchtype (you can lower it back to a flat position) and I could adjust it for me when I write long email letters.

    <tim><
  • At home, i use a PC Concepts ergo with a built-in trackpad. It's *wonderful*. The regular old split-layout ergo is much easier on the wrists, and the trackpad is even better, if you don't need too much precision. And the 6 key is in the right place for touch typists. :}

    At work, i have one of the newer-model MS ergo keyboards. The keys themselves are better than the PC Concepts (as good as soft-touch gets), but the dinky arrow and home/pgup/etc keys blow. And the 6 is on the wrong side. And i'm using a wrist-killing MS mouse. But It's better than nothing.

    If you don't like ergo keyboards, look for an ancient gen-u-wine IBM PC keyboard off an AT or RS/6000. *Beautiful* key touch, and they last forever. The only bad thing is they're noisy.

  • Keyboard, schmeeboard. Has little to do with wrist pain. I know, I used to suffer from it.

    My top tips are:

    - (MOST IMPORTANT) Invest in a foam wrist rest which is the same height and length as the front of your keyboard. Cost about one quid (US$1.50). If it doesn't fit cut up a bulky glossy monthly computer magazine and wrap it in sellotape- works just as well and you can trim it to size.

    - (VERY IMPORTANT) Make sure the desk and seat are at the right height. This REALLY makes a difference with wrist pain! We need to shift the weight off your wrists and onto your spine. With your feet flat on the floor, your upper legs should be horizontal, your back should be straight, your upper arms should be straight, your lower arms should be horizontal (resting on the chair arm rests), and your hands should rest comfortably on the wrist rest and keyboard.

    - Get an adjustable monitor stand and make sure the top of the visible screen is directly at the height of your eyes. Once again discarded monthly bulky glossy magazines come to the rescue and make excellent stackable monitor stands! Or use last year's telephone directory. This will stop you "crouching" and will ease the pressure off your wrists- your SPINE should be supporting your weight, not your hands, remember.

    - Move the monitor DIRECTLY in front of you. You, your keyboard, the desk and your monitor should all be in a straight line. More to do with back and neck pain than wrist pain but again any weight shifted from your hands to your spine will help a lot.

    - Try adjusting the height of your keyboard. Try it with and without the feet/struts or whatever your keyboard has.

    - Type with both hands, don't hunt-and-peck, especially if you are left-handed. Your brain is quite capable of dividing up the keyboard into left-half and right-half without the aid of Uncle Bill's alien ergonomics team.

    - Use the mouse a lot? Bad news is that Microsoft IntelliMice and ErgoMice are actually MOST EXCELLENT- if only their software was as good as their mice! The ONLY Microsoft product I recommend! Also a mouse pad with integral wrist-rest will help, as will a wider arm rest on your chair, or using a corner-shaped desk. You need to rest your elbow when mousing, otherwise you are going to put weight on your wrist again...

    All of this learned on a one-day training course at IBM Warwick, UK!

    Okay, you can start flaming me about recomending Microsoft Mice now.
  • I pick these up whenever I find em.
    However, I know that many of the earlier PS/2's did have the good-quality keyboards. (I've stolen some from them myself :> )
  • I say 'Cheap' because I've never seen it cost more than $50. I say 'Generic' because I have seen the same exact keyboard with 20 different name plates on it.

    The way to identify this one is that it has three buttons above the spacebar between the split; a 'mouse' button, a tab and backspace (This is where MS put the three lights). There is also a Macintosh-like "power" key in the top right corner (a left-pointing triangle).

    I have seen this with and without a touch-pad, and I have even seen the wrist rest in white and gray colors. I own the one with the touch pad (never use it) and the white wrist rest. This keyboard is AWESOME. Durable, reliable, and quite comfortable. I highly recommend it. You should be able to find it at most large computer stores (eg: Comp USA)

  • MS Hardware is not evil.

    They probably stole the design from somebody :-)

  • I just got a 2.0 a few weeks ago and like it. You're right about those half-sized cursor key, but I just use the numeric keypad. I'm a programmer, not a data entry drone, so I don't have a need for the keypad anywho. With a ten dollar rebate, the keyboard only cost $30 too.

  • Yeah, IBM did know how to make keyboards. I've still got mine somewhere and for years I would use it in place of whatever piece o crap came with the system. A little annoying if someone else near you is using one however, but nice for you.

    These days, however, I'm using a MS Natural instead. It's doesn't have the great keys, but the ergo setup is a better than even swap I think, especially if you program all day.

  • And use what? If you want an ergo keyboard, there isn't another good one around. I checked several computer stores (best buy, compusa, computer city) and couldn't find any other non-cheapo ergo keyboard. As for the Kenesis, they are too expensive. I paid $30 for my MS Natural (after $10 rebate), which is hard to beat. That Kenesis might be good, but not ten times as good!

  • Lite On (Score:1)

    by Petra ( 3428 )
    I've got a Lite On keyboard ... Great keyboard, only set ya back about $40.00 to. got mine at microcenter... very nice keyboard, very simalar to the microsoft natural 1.0 's
  • Datahands are pricey ($900 with a student discount), but well worth it. I've had one since September and my wrists have improved considerably. All that the MS keyboards do is make my wrists hurt more.

    However, you must remember that the best hardware in the world isn't going to help much if you keep on typing for 16 hours straight. Take breaks every now and then. Otherwise you'll just get worse again. Even with my Datahand, after a couple hours of typing my wrists are sore and I need a rather long break and need to massage my carpal tunnels.

    All the email in the world isn't worth losing your hands. Try to cut as much of it as you can out of your life. Stop reading and posting to high-traffic mailinglists, reduce your time on IRC, etc.; do whatever you can to reduce your typing time. It truly is worth it.
    ---
  • I have both Adesso Truform and Nuform keyboards on the Macs we use here in the lab. I like them both rather a lot, though the Truform seems to be easier to type on for long periods. It took some getting used to, though. I have the ones with the little "eraser nub" pointer in the center. These are good products for the price.
  • I have b asically a clone of an MS Ergo, by a company called Belkin...it was half the price ($45 Cdn) and has a better feel, IMO.

    I got it because I was really starting to have troubles with my wrists and tendons. It seems to have helped a lot.

    \Brian
  • Here's a homebrew ergo keyboard made with surplus parts, total cost $14. I was going to put this up next week, but since we're on the topic, I threw this page together this morning.

    http://thecraftstudio.com/bcboy

    Disclaimer: if you can't use powertools safely, or use of this design makes your arms fall off, it's not my fault. Use at your own risk.
  • I picked up one of these, thinking it would help. I didn't. The chicklet keys are horrible, and fatigue my fingers very quickly. Also the device is not tapered toward the shorter fingers, so I can't get it in a position where all fingers can comfortably hit any of the three keys. It's worse on my wrist than a normal keyboard, by far.
    I'd much prefer a two-handed design, with one key per finger (no stretching), or perhaps two for index or thumb. Also soft keys, not chicklet.
  • I collect those things - I rescued three from the trash heap so far. Most users simply aren't very picky about their keyboards - they don't type, they click around with the mouse. Anyone who actually types prefers a clicking keyboard like those old IBMs.

    Focus also makes some very nice keyboards, very inexpensive too. Nicer click feel than the IBM's I think, a tiny bit lighter.
    How about those Happy Hacker Keyboards? Has anyone used those? How do they compare to classic clicking keyboards?
  • My only question is, is the backspace two keys wide or one? There is a nice one at work that has a small backspace key, which I personally can't get used too.
    There is also a focus keyboard there which is reall nice and super clicky (ie the one I use).
    -Rich
  • That's funny; I use an IBM PS/2 Model 80 (Model 80/111, 2x120MB ESDI hard disks, 12MB of 160ns RAM, 20MHz Evergreen 386DX->486 upgrade, tape drive I don't know how to use, NT 3.51, ex-Midland Bank fileserver), and I really like the keyboard. But you're saying that the earlier IBM keyboards were even better. I must try to get hold of one.
  • Amen, my brother, Amen.

    It completely boggles my mind how a company could make a computer peripheral that could withstand the test of time like these things do. Lemme check the date on the bottom of mine here: IBM, 1984. The damned thing is 15 YEARS OLD, and works just as well as the day it was assembled. Beautiful!

    I don't know who the fool was who made the 'cost-saving' move to the new, plastic nastiness keyboards. I find that my typing speed, and most anyone's, _easily_ doubles when they are using one of these dreams.

    I usually find surplus/computer auctions have them, if you're lucky. You can sometimes pick up a box full of 'em for under $10 :)

    This is the only place I've found, so far, that sells them online:

    http//www.pckeyboard.com/IBMSales.htm
  • My biggest problem with the M$ Ergo keyboard is the feel of the keys. Since they aren't mechanical if you don't hit them dead-on there's a significant increase in resistance that's aggravating to my finger joints.

    Mechanical keys such as those on an IBM keyboard have the best feel.
  • Kinesis keyboards are fantastic. I have one of the QD's (qwerty/dvorak switchable w/ legends for both on the keycaps), but everything from the classic on up is switchable to dvorak (Progrm-Ctrl-F5). They cost ~200+, but are well worth the investment.

    - dave f.

    oh yeah, goto http://www.kinesis-ergo.com
  • What is it about "ergonomic" keyboards that makes them better? It has never occurred to me to replace my keyboard for "ergonomic" reasons...

    -Steve
  • at least the best standard Keyboards. I have seen lots of them being sold for almost nothing in the recent past.

  • These keyboards are obvously OEMed by almost every computer tidbits manufacturer. I have a LiteON version with touchpad and a TRUST version without it. The touchpad comes in pretty handy if you just want to change windows - no need to move tha hand, just drag the index finger cross the pad. It happily coexists with my mouse.
    The typing is not as marvelous as it is with the IBM keyboards from heaven (mentioned in an other thread here) but quit comparable to the Microsuck keyboard. And it features a HUGE wrist rest. Its my daily-business keyboard and did not fail within the last two years. I bought the version with touchpad for approx. $70, without pad for $30.

    Fionn
  • Can't see what's wrong with thos Win95 keys - I think e.g. under Linux they make a nice replacement for the Sun Meta Keys I was missing. Now, if only I could find a PC keyboard with those "Stop", "Again", "Props", etc. function keys like the Sun Keyboards... :-}

    Argathin
  • And if you switch to the Dvorak layout, all of the keys for vi get moved around. I guess I could adapt to all of them except ...

    HJKL as arrow keys. I am a slave to these keys.
  • I have used Microsoft Natural keyboards, but the Silitek SK-6000 is much better for me (and my bursitis) because it has a much lighter touch. Dell sells them, and I've seen them for $40 at CompUSA.
  • I've got a cirque wave keyboard (w/touchpad). While I almost never use the touchpad (unless I'm in bed), the rest of the keyboard is great. In fact, my mom got one almost identical (without the touchpad). It comes with a mouse input (so the keyboards long cable acts as a mouse extension cord). Nice at times. I think microsoft put the '6' key on the wrong side (esp since one of my usernames is bc80267). The feel is also great.
  • I had trouble with wrist aches a while ago and I got a Gel-eez wrist rest and mouse pad from Case Logic. It's helped alot. They're on the order of $10 from Best Buy like places.

    I haven't tried the arched MS natural-like keyboards. Are they really that much better?
  • I never seem to have trouble with crappy qwerty's and my wrists... true, typing badly helps.

    What I'm looking for is a SILENT keyboard. I need a keyboard that doesn't make any noise at all.

    Does such a beast exist?

    I suppose I could duct tape a pillow over my keyboard. (But then the back lighting would be a fire hazzard, wouldn't it... ;-)

  • I just use a Microsoft Natural keyboard, (version 1, the new version isn't as good, the arrow keys suck), but the key to using this keyboard is to flip up the bar underneath that raises the FRONT of the keyboard, for added wrist support. The last thing you want to do is to raise the back of your keyboard, that's only harder on your wrists. It takes a bit to adapt to this keyboard once you get it, but then you'll find that your wrists don't ache near as much, and it makes you a better typist as well. My boss has a Kinesis ergonomic keyboard, and that costs a lot more $$$ and takes a little longer to learn, but it's even more friendly to your wrists.
  • The best keyboards are original IBM PC AT keyboards.

    Back in the dawn of history (1984-86 or so :), IBM's keyboards were made by the Selectric typewriter division. Cost $200 or so to replace, had a big iron plate in their base to hold 'em on the desk, proper switches under every key. Depress the keys and they go 'click' with a lovely positive feel -- you don't need to hammer them and you always know when you've mistyped something because you can feel it in your fingertips.

    It's just a standard layout keyboard, but in tactile terms it's like the difference between a concert grand piano and a cheap consumer-market midi keyboard.

    Those keyboards are built like brick outhouses; most of 'em are still soldiering on. The later keyboards are flimsy and plasticky, but in my experience there is nothing quite like an original PC-AT keyboard.

    NB: They began cutting corners in 1987, around the time the PS/2 models began coming out. Later models look the same, but have cheap membrane switches underneath instead of being properly spring; basically a cheap plastic imitation of the real thing. I am talking about original PC-AT keyboards made between the introduction of the PC-AT in 1984 and the arrival of the PS/2 range in 1987, with the positive clicking action and the genuine electric typewriter feel. I picked this one up about two weeks ago for two pounds (UK currency -- about US $3) and it's great.

  • Why do authors of furry/sci-fi/erotic journal entries need to use the { and } keys? ;-)

    I've been coding C++ for about 8 years now, and using the Dvorak layout for about 5-6 years of that. I do find that I have trouble with my right pinky. It's not so much because of the special symbols for the pinky -- most of those symbols are also mapped to the pinky for the QWERTY keyboard, they're just rearranged a little for Dvorak.

    My pinky problems are twofold: first is that not all Dvorak mappings lay the keys out the same way, not even all "ANSI" Dvoraks are the same. The most recent example was, I think, the Redhat 5.2 Dvorak layout for console mode; the "=" and one other key are in the wrong place. I've seen the same in X keyboard mappings. Of course, these layouts can usually be changed, but that's a pain.

    My other complaint is with keyboards that are physically different in the area of the pinky: some have a small "enter" key, whereas others have the L-shaped enter key. Then there's the Backspace key that's not always in the same place. This causes the Dvorak mapping of the pinky keys to move around in inconsistent ways. Really a pain for touch-typing, but then again, the QWERTY folks would have the same complaints.

    Jim
  • I love the MS Naturals (old style) - like most people here I won't use anything else. But good luck finding the old style. Most people who have one aren't going to give 'em up. (I HATE the elites - yuck - what is that diamond thing???). Pair this with my Logitech Trackman Marble and I am in ergo heaven.

    The old Naturals are very good and pretty durable - large keys (HUGE space bar!). Only thing is that the paint on the keys may rub off after a while. If you are reading this, then you probably aren't the type who looks at the keys when they type. ;-)

    (Just as a note of caution: when I first saw it, I went eeehh, but after an hour or two I was in heaven).

    Later,
    Justin
  • And why is it so small?

    I'd like a sculptured Dvorak or Maltron, please,
    but it needs to have the control key in a reasonable spot.

    I'd remap it, but I don't see an obvious candidate. They've already optimized away capslock.
  • I was wondering if anyone knows of any keyboards where the keys are backlit for computing in the dark. Just curious.

    ~afniv
    "Man könnte froh sein, wenn die Luft so rein wäre wie das Bier"
    "We could be happy if the air was as pure as the beer"
  • Well, I actually have no use for one. I was wondering if there was such a thing.

    I agree that it's better for you to have a light on when computing.

    But the best light to use is a halogen light. This light approximates the light from the sun more than other lights sources and is better for your eyes. It keeps me from having headaches.

    Unfortunately at work all the lights are flourescent lights in cubicals. By turning the lights off from above my cube, things are better. Oh well.

    ~afniv
    "Man könnte froh sein, wenn die Luft so rein wäre wie das Bier"
    "We could be happy if the air was as pure as the beer"
  • Mine finally bit the dust after many years of heartless pounding. Best keyboard ever made -- you're not crazy.

    The later IBM keyboards are not as good, but they're still better than anything else out there. Unfortunately, the IBM Aptiva I have has a typical cheap keyboard.

    Has anyone tried the IBM keyboard with the built-in trackpoint? I'd like to check one out, but they're pretty expensive to buy sight unseen.

    D
  • I've seen keyboards exactly like that at frys for probably under $80. I'm not sure if they're made by kinesis (I don't remember), but if not, they're the exact same layout. I would figure that the design would be patented. The keyboards looked like they were of standard quality and not just some cheap knock-off too. I tried it out and could get used to it (the're really wierd to use). I could see how, after a while, your typing speed could increase using one. It seemed like my fingers were very close to all the relavent keys. I read an article about alternate input devices a couple years ago and this style keyboard was one of the ones featured.

    A side note is that the made for tv movie: Tom Clancy's Netforce used these keyboards as their keyboards of the future. BTW, the show was really bad but funny when looked at in present context (replace Will Styles from the movie with Bill Gates).
  • I use a kinesis here, and hit the curly braces with my ring finger. I don't notice it at all when I program, and will say that it has saved my wrists. If you don't like the location, get the configurable one and remap it -- I've switched many keys to more useful locations.
  • I was just thinking, hmm... this could be a poll; "I prefer the following ergo keyboard"... then I see someone else beat me to it.

    I have a Datahand, y'know the type with padded wrist rests and a well for each finger. I like it all right but I'm not sure if it was really worth the $750 (and that at a discount). What do other people with this keyboard think? I still have minor problems...

    I get the feeling that different people have different problems and no single solution is going to work for everyone.

  • but I like the ergo from MS. I was in fact using it (good luck finding any ergos without that annoying Win key combo.) but I was inspired to paint my computer and I decided to return to my ole 101.

  • Although you have probably already considered this
    I thought I'd mention that it may be worth examining your posture (there are loads of sites on the web concerning it just do a search for RSI!) also the best quality vanilla keyboard has got to be the Cherry G83!!
  • i use a microsoft natural elite (the kind you can get from dell) at work, and i'm extremely pleased with it. much better than the dell comfort keyboard...

    []
  • My SO and I have both been using MS Natural keyboards (version 1) for about 3 years now. We've been very happy with them. Note that the MS Natural keyboard doesn't have a "wrist rest", but instead has a place where you can rest the *PALMS* of your hands, leaving the wrists supported but not resting on anything.

    I would question the above author's credentials for making such claims about the MS Natural keyboard. My SO has problems with her wrists, and the original MS Natural keyboard is the only one she's used so far that's allowed her to type without problems.

    I usually *AVERAGE* 55K-strokes per day, and am very happy with the original MS Natural Keyboard. I did see the new "Elite" ones, and it does indeed look like they are inferior...

    Sean
  • I have to agree with several other people who posted, maybe Microsoft should stick to hardware. Between their mice (which take a beating) and the keyboards I really like their hardware, it has always been a good solid enduring investment for me.

    Even though I don't use my desktop PC near as much as I used to my MS keyboard has been great. The only problem I've ever had with it is now they letters on a couple of my home row keys are starting to show wear -- which isn't bad for how much I've used it in the last couple years.
  • I have a 1.0 MS Natural Keyboard. It works great and is constructed very well. Ever since switching to it my wrists are no longer sore after a few hours of typing.

    Well, last month I spilled hot chocolate all over the keyboard, and it was a very syrupy, crystalized sugar hot chocolate mix. Needless to say it started behaving erratically. Well, I didn't want to unplug it from the back of the computer, because I've seen many cases where you need to reboot the computer to get it to work again once it disconnects. I had a 220 day uptime to protect on linux 2.0.34!

    Well, I was able to take it fully apart, clean ALL the contacts, keys, and plastic layers and put it back together again without disconnecting it. I used to work near a keyboard repair shop and I can tell you that most every keyboard is a cheap piece of crap that can't be put back together in a sane fashion once you take it apart. Well, the MS 1.0 natural keyboard was built to be cleaned.

    Not only does my keyboard look brand new and feel very comfortable, but my uptime is now at 260 days. I would highly recommend it!

    -OT
  • I have a no-name (Kensiko) Natural Keyboard ripoff. It tilts back, which I like, and it has traditional F keys, arrow keys, and Ins, Home, End etc. It also has a Mac-style power key in the corner, which doesn't work on my computer, and three buttons in the area between the two halves of the letter portion: 1) a mouse key, which turns the number pad into a pointer controller; 2) a Tab key; and 3) a backspace key. I never use any of them, but some people might like them. Anyway, they don't get in the way, so there's not downside. I bought it at Office Depot for about $40, and I've been very happy with it.

    The New York Times had an article a while back in the mildly amusing Thursday Circuits section, about this very issue. It said that the MS kind is NOT what you want, that an adjustable one is better for your wrists. I don't know. I'm not an ergonomist. I just type. All I can say is that this one's pretty comfortable anyway.
  • Hate to defend Satan, but I kinda like the Wheel Mous, too. Sorry.
  • Hate to defend Satan, but I kinda like the Wheel Mouse, too. Sorry.
  • Subject says it all.
  • Let's see what people are actually using,
    or maybe what they want to use.

  • I liked the idea of the Datahand a lot, and used it for a couple of weeks. However, if you look at the layout (for those who haven't tried one), many of the keys you have to "press" require a lateral (side-to-side) action of the fingers. Furthermore, I use the control key a lot, and its position required me to use my thumb a lot in an awkward position. These motions were not natural for me, and soon I had aches and pains of a different sort than I had with a regular keyboard. I also found it hard to relax my hands when using it.

    Let me add that I use the Dvorak layout and the people at Datahand were very accomodating to this fact - they even offered to burn a Dvorak-specific layout ROM chip for the keyboard. By that time, however, I had determined that it wasn't my cup of tea, and had returned it. Their customer service is superb, however.

    I think Datahand is on the right track - we need to completely rethink how we input into a computer, and drop the old paradigms. A combo of the Datahand, a dataglove, and the Bat (which does chording) might be a step in the right direction :)

    Soulfry
  • Actually, there are two alternative Dvorak layouts. The "official" breaks the brackets up, while the alternative puts them right next to each other (in the same spot as the - and = keys on a QWERTY).

    I prefer the "unofficial" layout for coding.

    Soulfry.
  • I switched to the Dvorak layout about a year ago and I'm still getting the hang of it. Part of the problem is that I broke by right hand when very young and my right pinky (pinkie?) isn't as strong as it needs to be to hit the 's' and 'l' keys with complete effectiveness. What really ticks me off, though, is that all of the major symbols Perl, C, and C++ coders use are also off that one finger.

    It's made programming a lot more uncomfortable for me, and I'm not sure if it works for anyone else as well. If you touch-type, it's great-- this post is a breeze to respond to. But it can't be just my handicap-- has anyone else who codes in Perl or C noticed just how annoyingly the '{' and '}' are placed? It's enough to make me want to remap the keyboard again.

    Elf Sternberg
  • I don't personally use a Maltron but I've experienced what some claim to be the holy grail of ergonomica. Even comes with it's own key layout (alternative to QWERTY) to increase typing efficiency. And it keeps people from using your workstation w/out permission.
  • Sorry for the shouting, but I chose my nickname 'kinesis' because I like my keyboard so much.

    I do a lot of heavy lifting in the gym and a lot of typing at work... the combination was hell on my wrists until I got the Kinesis Ergo Classic. It just plain rocks.

    In addition to being more comfortable when programming, I also do better at net Unreal. All those keys over by my thumbs (plus the foot pedals!) let me do lots of fancy stuff.

    Definitely get the footpedals too.

    The whole rig set me back ~ $300. Money well spent. Word is surgery for carpal tunell will run you several thousand dollars. The keyboard seems like a smart investment to me.
  • I don't know what's different about newer ones, but I got one not long after the MS Natural keyboards came out, and I love it. My wrists hurt to use any normal keyboard now.
  • >This is also true, but the fact is that it feels much nicer than qwerty.

    Well, gee. Is that a *fact* now? Well, maybe you could enlighten us on a few other facts, like 1) KDE or GNOME? 2) chocolate ice cream or strawberry? 3) Quake 2 or Quakeworld?

    Matters of personal preference...
  • Here [ccsi.com] are instructions on all the above mentioned OS, and quite a few others. Eli
  • Wasn't there some previous article about people from Microsoft being told to post raves about MS products in message board systems? Sounds like we found another one...:oP
  • I believe typing posture is the most important factor in keyboard comfort, then you can do a lot with different layouts without spending lots of money. I also happen to prefer fairly strongly sprung keys, especially the clicky IBM ones. Here's one of my past posts on ergonomics [slashdot.org]. Here's another. [slashdot.org]
    My solution to the sore hand problem was to switch from QWERTY to Dvorak [dvorakint.org]. I use this layout about 85% of the time now. The benefits: It's more comfortable than QWERTY, and it costs absolutely nothing. Here's how to get it:


    Mac: Download [shareware.com] the keyboard layout.

    Win32: Open the Keyboard control panel and select Language. Click Properties, then select United States-Dvorak.

    X-Windows: Create a remapping and run it through xmodmap. My xmodmap files are included at the end: One to switch to Dvorak and one to go back to QWERTY.


    Another interesting looking keyboard is the Maltron. The original is quite pricey, but Teleprint [teleprint.com] sells a cheaper one. Note that it is largely similar in key sequence to Dvorak, but ergonomically sculpted. I have also created an Xmodmap for this one (mapped to a regular keyboard) that is more optimized for programming, but I haven't tested it out yet.


    dvorak.kb
    =========
    keycode 0x2f = bracketleft braceleft
    keycode 0x30 = bracketright braceright
    keycode 0x3d = apostrophe quotedbl
    keycode 0x3e = comma less
    keycode 0x3f = period greater
    keycode 0x40 = p P
    keycode 0x41 = y Y
    keycode 0x42 = f F
    keycode 0x43 = g G
    keycode 0x44 = c C
    keycode 0x45 = r R
    keycode 0x46 = l L
    keycode 0x47 = slash question
    keycode 0x48 = equal plus
    keycode 0x54 = a A
    keycode 0x55 = o O
    keycode 0x56 = e E
    keycode 0x57 = u U
    keycode 0x58 = i I
    keycode 0x59 = d D
    keycode 0x5a = h H
    keycode 0x5b = t T
    keycode 0x5c = n N
    keycode 0x5d = s S
    keycode 0x5e = minus underscore
    keycode 0x6b = semicolon colon
    keycode 0x6c = q Q
    keycode 0x6d = j J
    keycode 0x6e = k K
    keycode 0x6f = x X
    keycode 0x70 = b B
    keycode 0x71 = m M
    keycode 0x72 = w W
    keycode 0x73 = v V
    keycode 0x74 = z Z
    keycode 37 = 1 exclam
    keycode 38 = 2 at
    keycode 39 = 3 numbersign
    keycode 40 = 4 dollar
    keycode 41 = 5 percent
    keycode 42 = 6 asciicircum
    keycode 43 = 7 ampersand
    keycode 44 = 8 asterisk
    keycode 45 = 9 parenleft
    keycode 46 = 0 parenright
    keycode 49 = grave asciitilde
    keycode 95 = backslash bar brokenbar


    qwerty.kb
    =========
    keycode 0x2f = minus underscore
    keycode 0x30 = equal plus
    keycode 0x3d = Q
    keycode 0x3e = W
    keycode 0x3f = E
    keycode 0x40 = R
    keycode 0x41 = T
    keycode 0x42 = Y
    keycode 0x43 = U
    keycode 0x44 = I
    keycode 0x45 = O
    keycode 0x46 = P
    keycode 0x47 = bracketleft braceleft
    keycode 0x48 = bracketright braceright
    keycode 0x54 = A
    keycode 0x55 = S
    keycode 0x56 = D
    keycode 0x57 = F
    keycode 0x58 = G
    keycode 0x59 = H
    keycode 0x5a = J
    keycode 0x5b = K
    keycode 0x5c = L
    keycode 0x5d = semicolon colon
    keycode 0x5e = apostrophe quotedbl
    keycode 0x6b = Z
    keycode 0x6c = X
    keycode 0x6d = C
    keycode 0x6e = V
    keycode 0x6f = B
    keycode 0x70 = N
    keycode 0x71 = M
    keycode 0x72 = comma less
    keycode 0x73 = period greater
    keycode 0x74 = slash question
    keycode 37 = 1 exclam
    keycode 38 = 2 at
    keycode 39 = 3 numbersign
    keycode 40 = 4 dollar
    keycode 41 = 5 percent
    keycode 42 = 6 asciicircum
    keycode 43 = 7 ampersand
    keycode 44 = 8 asterisk
    keycode 45 = 9 parenleft
    keycode 46 = 0 parenright
    keycode 47 = minus underscore
    keycode 48 = equal plus
    keycode 49 = grave asciitilde
    keycode 95 = backslash bar brokenbar

  • Overall the Maltron looks very similar to the Kinesis -- it's hard to believe it could be enough better to justify costing $200 more.
  • I can see your point. The escape key (also one of the little chiclets) used to bother me -- more because it's a stretch than because of the feel, though -- but eventually I got used to it. Also I switched from VI to Emacs (I was running NT and couldn't find an editor I liked) and stopped using escape as much, which helped.

  • I've been using a Microsoft Natural for years, and it does help quite a bit, but the best thing you can possibly do is get a good keyboard/mouse tray.

    The keyboard should be just above your knees, so that you aren't lifting your shoulders in an unnatural way. The mouse should be at the same height, as close to the keyboard as possible, so you don't find yourself stretching to get to it. I just got a nice combination setup at work that allows me to raise and lower the entire surface, as well as tilt it forward and back. It's much better than just dropping a keyboard and mouse on the top of a desk.

    The temperature of your work space makes a difference, too. When the thermostat at my office is set too low, I definitely notice a stiffness in my hands.

    This site [unl.edu] is all about RSIs and the things you can do to help yourself. Do a Google search on "repetitive strain injury" to find other sites.

  • I don't use arrow keys very often (I'm more of a mouser and don't use emacs much), and I love my MS Natural Elite, which I got for about $25 extra over the default keyboard when I bought a PC at PCs for Everyone [pcsforeveryone.com] last summer. PCfE was one of the first places to buy a PC with preinstalled Red Hat. Their quality is high and prices are most reasonabubble. Lifetime labor warrantee on all their systems. I'm a most happy customer.
  • I'm a big fan of the Kinesis "contoured" layout:
    All of the heavy keys are moved under your thumbs,
    including Alt, Ctrl, Backspace, Delete, Enter and Space. This is perfect for the emacs abuser (no more leaning on an awkwardly placed control key with your pinky while you're thinking about what to do next). Also, the keyboard is completely programmable, so if you disagree with any of the layout decisions, you can probably fix it yourself fairly eaisly (in my case, I turn the hated CAPS/LOC key next to the A into another ESC).


    There are two drawbacks: it took me about two hours to learn to use it, and another two weeks to get my speed back (on the plus side, no one else in the office can ever use my computer). The other problem is that the keyboard is a little flatter than I would like (I keep meaning to see if I can hack one to increase the hump in the middle a little bit).


    Incidentally, these things come with a foot pedal (which is also eaisly programmable as any key on the keyboard, e.g. ESC, Cntrl...). I find them completely useless (I can twiddle my fingers faster than my feet), but experimenting with these things seems to be irresitable for your average geek.

  • I'm using a Chery G80-5000 since a few years. It's adjustable in lots of ways, and best of all, has the windows keys the way they should have always been. They are on the left side of the keyboard, like the function keys on the old XT style keyboards, and they have 'left' and 'right' written on them!. There should be several variants with and without click, I personally perfer the no-click version.

    I also have a Marquartd mini-ergoII (not adjustable, cursor keys in the middle, pageup, down and pos1 , end as well as the numeric pad can be used with a "fn" key) Although i think it's much more comfortable than the average 10$ keyboard, i don't like it because the blind-typing marks are just little embossed lines on the appropriate keys. I don't like it...


    Rainer
  • As part of a Microsoft promotion when the Ergo keyboards first came out, I got two for $99. (If I remember correctly.) I will use nothing else.
    Recently, I got another computer and bought one of the new Microsoft keyboards. I tried using it for two weeks and found it totally useless. Whoever came up with the new keyboard layout should be beaten with a rubber hose.

    InitZero
  • I don't know about the old, metal IBMs you are talking about - I thought they were cool, but I like the soft, but tight action of the Keytronic Lifetime I'm typing on now.

    Anyway, point is, I worked as a tech in a computer store for a while, and I saw some pretty messed up keyboards there. I found that many of the coffee/beer problems could be resolved by a run in the dishwasher - no detergent, warm water.

    Of course, this is a last resort - only if you're about to throw it away.

    -=Julian=-

    p.s. MS keyboards suck. The old and the new. The shape is nice, but the action on the keys is TOO LOOSE. They keycaps feel like they are going to flake off or something.

  • I own one of Acer's ergo keyboards, with a touch-pad in the center. It works really well; my shoulders and wrists are doing alot better than they were half a year ago.
    /juels

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