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Ergonomic Keyboards 378

Posted by CmdrTaco from the question-for-ya'll dept.
I've asked this before, but it's been awhile so I'm interested in knowing what people are liking in ergonomic keyboards these days. For the last several months I've been using a split keyboard mounted on my chair, but while overall it is excellent, it is having some problems now (it randomly died, forcing me to reboot and lose my 81-day uptime, but mainly it has only two mouse buttons on the integrated pointer which just isn't cool). My wrists aren't in the greatest shape after typing pretty much non-stop for the last few years, so it's time to try a new keyboard. Anyone have good suggestions? What has worked for you?
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Ergonomic Keyboards More

Ergonomic Keyboards

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  • Personally, I've used a pretty radical ergo keyboard (the Kinesis Countoured) and it's helped immensely. BUT, it's not the design of the keyboard per se.

    This keyboard is pretty fscked up, from an old-time
    perspective of a bad typist. It forced me to correct several bad habits I aquired while hacking in the Commodore-128 days. So in some respect, it's the savior of my arms.

    On the down side, the designers are text-typists, it seems, and the Esc is miniscule so it's cumbersome to use with everyone's favorite editor, 'vi'.

    - chad (ragnarsedai)
    cmiller@surfsouth.com
  • Hands down (no pun intended) the best keyboard
    I've ever tried. I'd even go so far as to say
    it's the best money I've ever spent.

    For a while my paid was so bad that I thought
    I'd have to stop programming. But three years
    later, thanks to the Kenisis, I'm still typing
    100 hours a week with very little if any pain.

    -Pez
  • I must concur, that Adesso keyboards [adessoinc.com] are top-notch. Myself, I own their "Tru-Form" keyboard [adessoinc.com], which does have the ridge ("tenting") in the middle. I really value it for that featrue; in fact, I upgraded to this Adesso because my old ergo keyboard didn't have the raised middle. And, the Adesso also has a split spacebar (a rarity on ergo keyboards, it seems)

    As a bonus, the "Windows" keys don't have the "Windows logo" on them -- rather, they have a simple drawing of a four-paned square window. Of course, there are stickers for the keys that come with the keyboard, to "upgrade" to the Windows logo, but I threw those out :).

    And, it's only $32 [ecost.com] with free shipping (but not free handing) from eCost [ecost.com].

    Also, I'd like to mention Dvortyboards [dvortyboards.com]. They're regular keyboards, but with both Qwerty and Dvorak letters on the keycaps. Best of all, though, you can switch between which mode (Dvorak or regular) simply through a switch on the keyboard (no software changes needed).

    Until recently, Dvortyboards only sold a non-ergo keyboard [dvortyboards.com]. However, they now sell an ergo one too [dvortyboards.com]. The funny thing is, though, is that the Dvorty ergo keyboard looks suspiciously like my Adesso, even with the split space bar ;).

    Alex Bischoff
    ---

    • Oh one other note, David Bialick sells these for the best price when I bought mine, and the service is also excellent. His site is http://www.dmb-ergonomics.com/.
    Office Organix [officeorganix.com] seems to have even better prices:
    • Kinesis Essential:
    • Kinesis Professional:
    • [etc]
    Alex Bischoff
    ---
    • And, it's only $32 with free shipping (but not free handing) from eCost.
    Hmm, it's seems that my direct link to eCost's Adesso Tru-Form page didn't work.. Well, in that case, if you're interested, it's just a matter of going to the main eCost page [ecost.com] and searching for "Adesso".

    And, no, I don't work for them -- I'm just a satisfied customer :).

    Alex Bischoff
    ---

  • Ergonomic devices abound: keyboards, mice, furniture, related accessories, and foolish gadgets. Many of these do have benifits, and I would never dissuade someone from using an Ergo keyboard (for instance). However, it's not a fix, there are other things that should be done:
    • Take regular typing breaks. Work for a while, take your hands off the KB and do something else with them.
    • Excercise: use a "stress ball" or equivalent, or if you already have an RSI, see a physical therapist for an excercise regimen.
    • Use proper posture. Don't get a wrist rest -- they encourge poor posture: instead, follow proper posture taught in keyboarding (and piano) classes.
    • Don't skimp. All ergo devices are not created equal -- find one that is best for you, even if it costs more.
    Above all, remember that the biggest improvement you'll see with a good ergo keyboard is performance. If you buy one, buy it for that, and use the tips above for healthy typing.

    --
    Never underestimate the power of very stupid people in large groups
  • How about dos?
  • I need a ergonomic keyboard that has a Dvorak layout. They go through all of the trouble to release the pressure on the arms and the wrists but forget, the fingers are twisted constantly because of Mr. Qwerty.
  • Wouldn't mind one of those $300 keyboards, but, what ya gonna do...

    Get ahold of $300?

  • I also use a Kinesis [kinesis-ergo.com] keyboard, and I am incredibly happy with it.
    It has the following (for me) huge advantages:
    - your thumbs are no longer wasted, with two fantastic thumbpads, including enter, space, backspace, delete, control (emacs heaven), alt, home, end, pgup and pgdown. This has a really great side effect: absolutely no more long and painful pinky-stretches to get to enter and backspace. Remember that your thumbs are your strongest and most agile digits, and it's a crying shame to waste them both on a space bar.
    - the keyboard is separated into two wells, making it so you no longer have to turn your wrist outwards in order to type.
    - The wells are shaped _exactly_ like your hand at rest. Let your hand droop in front of you - look at your fingers. The keys are exactly at that depth vis a vis each other.
    - The pro is entirely programmable, so if you'd rather use a modern layout like the maltron [maltron.com] keyboard, you can. You can see this layout here: maltron layout [teleprint.com], but don't buy the maltron keyboard from teleprint, cause I have one and it sucks compared to my kinesis, in size, look and feel.
    - The keys are laid out straight up and down, which is a natural movement for your fingers, unlike the diagonal movement a normal keyboard forces you to take.
    - (totally anecdotal) My wrists and hands have stopped hurting since I bought this thing. I have never been so happy with a computer product, ever. Well, well worth the price.
    - Oh one other note, David Bialick sells these for the best price when I bought mine, and the service is also excellent. His site is http://www.dmb-ergonomics.com/ [dmb-ergonomics.com]. I am not associated with him.
    Cheers,
    Paul
  • Dream for emacs (what I use)
    A Kinesis pro [slashdot.org] with esc and +/= swapped. It's awesome! :-)

    Paul
  • I'm a four finger typer and I always thought that an ergo keyboards were for dorks and people who were trained to touch type.

    After 15 years on the keyboard, (14 when I started - you do the math) I started to feel something weird in the wrists last year.

    I bought a MS keyboard this year for home and it took about 2 weeks to get used to it, but I'd never go back. I'll never be as fast as I am on a flat keyboard, but you know what - it doesn't matter. I'm still pretty quick and my wrists feel so much better.

    I'm using a flat keyboard at work, and it sucks.

    The MS Keyboard and the MS optical mice are both pretty nice.


  • As Hugh points out, there are some inherent problems with some ergonomic keyboards. In particular, MS has led a trend (of two, that I've seen so far) toward putting the "6" key on the wrong hand.

    The really odd thing is that there are split keyboards available from a number of manufacturers for about half what the MS Natural costs, with the "6" in the right place, and I've never had one fail on me. Lite-On, PC-Concepts, and others make split keyboards (without the touch pad) which retail around US$30.

    As for the "forward slash" key -- has anyone really seen a keyboard with a US layout which moves the slash/question-mark key?! Backslash, sure... it might be interesting just to catalog all the places mfgs have put that sucker.

    It would be nice to get split keyboards without the MS keys on 'em. Those keys are a pain even when I'm stuck running a Micros~6 product!

  • I prefer the MS Natural keyboard, but not the new "Elite" or "Gold" or whatever they call it these days with the chiclets-size arrow keys and flipped-around home/end/del/pgup/pgdn/ins keys. Go for a clone that gives you the standard arrow-key layout but the same ergonomic touch.
  • I used to have one of those babies on my Mac, and loved it, for exactly the reasons you describe. Unfortunately, they were unreliable as hell. I went through at least two of 'em because of faulty keys.

    That is the real reason why Apple killed 'em off...they were drowning in defective keyboards.
  • I've been using the Kinesis Classic (programmable one) for about 6 months, and i can't say enough good things about it. I was using the MS Natural keyboard prior to that, but it doesn't compare to this. Not only is it comfortable, but i finally got to put the CTRL and ALT keys where they belong, and i'm not even sure where my caps lock key is mapped to anymore, and i don't care. Anyway, it was about 200 bucks, but worth every penny, considering how much time i spend using it.
  • I need to find a keyboard for very severe handicap children. With some kind of special keys (hole or bigs keys). Any help ? thank you very much OverLord
  • Not sure why you aren't able to use 3-button emulation. I know why I can't; I use a Wacom tablet, and the pen only has the capability to click on one button or the other at any given time. So there's no chance of ChordMiddle working.

    My solution was to write a small shell script that will reverse the modmap of the pointer so that the 2nd button becomes the 3rd button or vice-versa whenever it is run. Then I made that shell script a keyboard shortcut for easy access.
  • > I am suggesting that every geek with sore wrists go out and do something physically demanding which will strengthen them

    Just make sure you exercise both wrists...;)

  • > what helps most is not using the mouse

    I started using a trackball (Kensington Expert Mouse) for precisely this reason.

    OK, so it's no good for quake, or photoshop, but for point & click stuff it's great.

  • I'm glad somebody else asked about tarballs. My second thought was of a book by Steven Gould, "The Glass Helm", if I recall.

    I find archery is particulary good at working those muscles in the lower arms and wrists. Don't buy into all the compound bow hype unless killing things is your main goal; get a heavy recurve and work at it until you can hit a moving target.

    You poor benighted victims of an urban location should probably ignore the above advice...

  • The best keyboard I have ever found was one IBM used to sell as an external for the Stinkpad.

    It has the same action as the better Stinkpad keyboards (like my old 701 butterfly) and has a trackpoint. Only two buttons but I can type all day on it and never have to move more than my fingers to work on it.

    The worst keyboard I have ever met was the Qtronix thingy that Corel were shipping with the Netwinder at the beginning. If I can pick up a keyboard and flex the ends by an inch then it is not for me. The fact that it had a tactile response like typing into dead flesh didn't help.

  • masterbate all the live long day...

  • Along with the basic tenet of Keep your Wrists Straight, the thing to watch for with any keyboard is how can you avoid moving your hand, arms and wrists excessively.

    For vi and emacs users, that means watch out for the escape key. (For those who don't use vi or emacs, that means watch out for the mouse. Good luck with that.)

    The solution I use to avoid reaching for the escape key is to map the right windows key to escape. This way I can use my right ring finger instead of reaching with my left hand.

    Xmodmap: keysym Meta_R = Escape
  • I shredded up the ulnar sides of my wrists a while back, and got a Kinesis on the company tab (my brother, who had a wrist problem of his own, suggested it to me). Yeah, it takes a couple of weeks to adjust, but once adjusted, your speed will go up, and the stress on your fingers, wrists, and forearms will go down. That's not to say you can't still hurt yourself (I have been typing way too much recently, and am starting to feel it), but the Kinesis can really help quite a bit.

  • Thats right, I said that I, an acknolwged full blown geek spent over one week without using a computer, and further I do this on atwice yearly basis!

    Accually it isn't bad. Kinda interesting to see how primitive people manage to survive. It didn't kill me, and in fact was fun in a way.

  • Conquering Carpal Tunnel Syndrom [amazon.com], by Sharon J. Butler, is full of good stretching exercises that helped me a lot. It's geared towards healing the friction rather than strengthening the hands. Good stuff. BTW, I'm not saying to buy it from amazon -- that's just the first link that came up when I searched for it.

  • Know of anyplace I can find a picture of one of those $75 IBM keyboards?

  • From the people I've talked to about ergonomic keyboards, Kinesis [kinesis-ergo.com] always seems to come up as the keyboard to get. They're quite expensive, but hopefully you've got a company to buy it for you. They make them with QWERTY layout, Dvorak, and even dual-legend switchable QWERTY/Dvorak layouts. I haven't tried them yet, but they do offer a 30- or 60-day money-back guarantee if I recall correctly. I'm sure a Kinesis owner will chime in on this thread and let us all know how great they are.
  • I converted to the MS keyboard sometime ago and found it really helps (I don't like the MS Elite one though as they did stupid things with cursor and navigation keys).

    Coupled with a really good keyboard try, I've been very comfortable. I can't remember what tray we had at my last job, but right now I'm looking at something from 3M [3m.com].

    My ideal setup involves getting the keyboard almost in my lap with negative tilt (front higher than the back). I sit back quite comfortably in my chair (a good monitor really helps here) with my hands basically resting in my lap. My sore elbows and wrists improved at my last job with this set up. I also had less tension in my shoulders, etc.

  • One of the problems I've had, is that alot of keyboards are aimed more at typing english than coding. i.e. I just got a MS Internet keyboard at work, and I had to give it up after a week (to a rather pleased co-worker) as my hands were in serious physical pain. The main problem is is that I use shift/alt/ctrl *alot* (yes, I code in Emacs), and my little/ring fingers were just in pain from bending to hit them. The placement of those on most ergo keyboards is *horrible* from an Emacs standpoint. I tried remapping ctrl to shift, and shift to caps-lock (and nuking caps-lock), but that didn't help much.

    I'm thinking of going to an old-skool IBM buck-spring keyboard, just because they're big, loud and I've never really had an issue with them. I think I would be lynched by my cubicle neighbours if that happened, though. Ah, well.

    My question, then - are there any heavy emacs users out there who have found a comfortable keyboard?

  • Alas, I don't have $300 to blow on a keyboard.

    $300 is chicken feed to save your career from a long term disability disaster. What do you stand to earn across a 30 year career, and how much would you stand to lose from a permanant RSI disability? If you're experiencing any minor hand pain now, it's time to plan for taking care of your hands for the future. Otherwise, plan instead for a McJob flipping burgers...

  • A friend of mine got the Kinesis Ergo Keyboard and loves it. www.kinesis-ergo.com. It does slow you down at first, and it will make it harder to type on a regular keyboard, but it is a real wrist-saver. It comes with QWERY layout but is designed to be able to switch to DVORAK and other layouts easily.

    I've been using one of these at work now for a little less than two years and I LOVE THIS KEYBOARD!

    I'm convinced my Kinesis keyboard has saved my career from RSI induced disability... it's so good I shelled out the $300 to buy one for home. OK, so it's a wierd layout that most folks can't deal with at first... but the hand strain you save is well worth the upfront training costs associated with the switchover.

    Anyone who is experiencing hand pain associated with heavy keyboard use should try this unit out. I strongly recommend this keyboard! And no, I'm not assiciated with Kinesis in any way, nor do I own their stock -- just a satisfied customer.

  • Your implication is arrogant and unscientific. "Because I don't have RSI means that it probably doesn't exist". Jeez!

    The main goal of these ergonomic keyboards is to keep the wrists straight, and to keep the user from having to move their arms from side to side. They are a tremendous help if you need them, and can make extended programming sessions considerably more bearable for those that don't "need" them.

    A close friend recently developed permanent nerve damage in his right shoulder. This was likely caused by both the mouse and the keyboard, combined with a less than ergonomic work environment. His doctors have encouraged him to avoid further typing to prevent aggravating the injury. For how long, you might ask. For the rest of his life. Nerves don't tend to heal very quickly, if at all.

    Typewriters tended to cause less RSI because most typists, before the advent of the keyboard, did not rest their wrists during typing. Mousing is particularly bad. Those scroll wheels on modern mice are about as bad as they come, as far as ergonomics are concerned.

    Reapeated stress injuries can be caused by a number of factors. In general, you don't want to have your wrists bent. You don't want to have a downward pushing action or forwards-to-backwards action with your fingertips (like with mousing and using a scroll wheel).

    Of course, a number of other things can be done to help prevent RSI. A proper sitting position is important (don't bend your knees more than 90 degrees, plant your feet flat on the floor or on a foot stand, lean slightly forward with your back). A proper height for your keyboard and mouse is important (eye level should be 1/3 down from the top of the screen, keyboard should be about 3 inches lower than most people think). Finally, performing wrist strengthening exercises can help tremendously (a previous poster suggested Aikido).

    RSI is real. You may not be succeptible, as you may have a more ergonomic environment, or you may be in better physical shape (although my friend is in excellent physical condition).
  • The maltron keyboard (go here) [maltron.com] works for me! The price is a bit steep, but you get a hand made, split design keyboard, adjusted to human anatomy.


    For the rest, all I can say is: do what your mommy told to you: go out a little more, have some excercise. Slashdot isn't everything.

  • Datadesk technologies [datadesktech.com] makes a very nice alternative to the MS Natural keyboard. It's called the SmartBoard. I bought a MS Natural the day they came out and used it for years. But I decided to try the SmartBoard and liked it so much I bought a second one and sold both my MS Naturals. If you like the MS Natural, then give this a try. It's better.

    You can buy them at several places (distributors listed at the web site), but Microwarehouse is selling them for $80 USD.

    The good:

    1. Takes up less space than the MS Natural
    2. Keys at the edges are wider, making typing easier (see web site for diagram).
    3. Nice firm clicky keys instead of those dead sponge abominations on most so-called "soft-touch" keyboards.
    4. Two control keys
    5. Big backspace key
    6. The windows keys (maps nicely to META)
    7. Cursor keys are much closer to your fingers. This is really really nice. (see diagram to get the exact positioning)
    8. PC and Mac versions.
    9. I had a problem with one of my keyboards and they replaced it with no hassle or fuss or questions.
    10. Mine came in a cool black color (bought it back when they were Darwin Keyboards, but I don't think they make black ones anymore).

    The bad:

    1. The +/= button is on the left, between the ~ and the 1. Weird, but once you get used to that it's no big deal (and you can always remap).
    2. The home/end/pageup/pagedown/insert/delete buttons have been moved above numeric keypad. This saves space and makes it easier to reach the num keypad. The problem is that they don't do anything to differentiate between the home/end/pageup/pagedown/insert/delete keys and the numeric keypad. It's just one big grid. If you're going by feel you'll make a few mistakes. Again, it takes some getting used to.
    3. The clicky keys means they are noisier than most "quiet" keyboards. I like this, but some people may not. The keys don't require much pressure and you know when you've hit them. Some people prefer the feel of the MS Natural. Not me.

    You should check the website for full details, including photos. Having used these keyboards for the over 1.5 years I can confidently say these keyboards are a superior replacement for MS Natural keyboards. Highly recommended.

  • I have enjoyed mine since I got it for Xmas. Its got a decent feel, and its _small_. I move my fingers less to get the same amount of text onto the screen than with a traditional keyboard. Plus, no windows key, no caps lock, control key is in the right place, and most chords (alt-whatever, Fn-whatever) are no problem.

    I have heard some people who say that they didn't help, or in fact caused more problems. I think the trick with the HH is to adjust it right: just plopping it down doesn't help much. Ya gotta play attention to all the stuff about positioning, and sadly, this means you'll prolly have to "hack" up a solution to get the height of the thing correct (the little feet aren't of much use).

    I love mine, and I am buying a few more, so I can use them with every machine.

    (I don't work for them, BTW, I'm just one of those annoying satisfied customers)
  • While I'm not denigrating the value of a good ergonomic keyboard, for me, at least, the answer lies in the fact that the malady is called REPETITIVE strain injury.

    I've been using a standard keyboard (including manual typewriters in the dim and distant past) on a daily basis (5-14 hours a day) for about 24 years, and have no stress injuries at all.

    I attribute this to the variation in wrist motions that I get from having other activities for my wrists (and the rest of me). I engage in regular physical exercise, including a variety of martial arts weapons, most of which include a large variety of wrist motions and exercises, and I also play the piano (not as well as I would like, but regularly). I fully believe that this variation in activity has done much more for my lack of wrist injury than any ergonomic keyboard could do in and of itself.

  • ... it's the placement.

    Keep your keyboard as low as you can; tilt it back a little bit if you can, so your wrists are straight. Curl your fingers like a pianist is trained to do. Keep your mousepad as close to your body as you can. Do NOT reach past the keyboard to grab the mouse.

    I used to have terrible RSI problems until my employer wized up and installed ergonomic office furniture for anyone who asked for it. Not funky chairs and articulated desks. Just a keyboard tray that fits under the desk surface and a proper chair with lumbar support.

    The keyboard tray is wonderful. It's wide enough for me to keep my mousepad there, too. Once I moved the keyboard and mousepad to hover an inch or so above my lap, my wrists steadily improved to the point where I only hurt when I touch-type all day long.

  • picked up a set of three switches with a controller from Bilbo that are mostly ok
    I bought a set of those a while back, but I had some compatability problems with my portable. More importantly I found that the pedals "bounced" and sometimes did completely the wrong function. Several times they would initiate the "suspend to disk" function in Win98 (which crashed on restore until Windows offered to disable the function because of the problems I'd been having). I also found that my feet typically weren't on the pedals when I wanted to use them, so I had to shift in my chair and find the pedals.

    For Windows, I recommend the Logitech Mouseman + (4 button, wheel) and a package called Pop-Mouse [pointix.com]. It allows you to call functions / menus / applications / keystrokes using mouse gestures like "clockwise in a circle" or "back and forth, horizontal". There's also a package called Jerboa which is much more flexible and free, but it hates X-mouse. I rarely use keyboard unless I'm actually typing a passage of text (or a password), thus when voice recognition for dictation is a bit more reliable with an Australian/English accent I'm ready to pack up the keyboard and buy something like the Cassiopeia Fiva tablet [casiosolutions.com] as a primary PC.

  • IF your wrists are still sore, try doing some light weight training to strengthen them. I have noticed a tremendous improvement even from light training. Plus I feel better about the hours in front of the computer.
  • Try pckeyboard.com [pckeyboard.com]. They are the descendant of the IBM/Lexmark keyboard division. This page [pckeyboard.com] lists the classic 42H1292 AT PS/2 clicky keyboard. I bought one and really like it. As a bonus, it doesn't have those stupid Windows keys.
  • I believe he uses one of the Dragonsys [dragonsys.com] products. Email me if you want me to get more details from him.
  • I practice on and off, but simply doing the stretching excercises from class once or twice a day helps immensely. IMHO, any geek who is having the beginnings of wrist problems should find an advanced student to show them the simple stretches from class.
  • There are 2 things that I know about. One is the curvy keyboards. This is standard issue at the company that I work for. They did a study and apparently this is a 'good buy'. The second is how you sit at your computer. Your arms should be at 45 degree angles to your desk and your back should be straight. Your monitor should be high enough that you are not looking up or down at it. Hope that helps some. The best thing to do is test and see what works for you. My writs pain has almost gone away, since I started using this curvy keyboard at work that I am thinking of getting one at home.

    send flames > /dev/null

  • Yes, I concur that the Kinesis [kinesis-ergo.com] Classic is probably the best keyboard out there for the serious emacs abuser. Almost all of the keys you need to use really heavily are moved to two clusters under your thumbs: CTRL, ALT, BS, DEL, Home, End, Page Up, Page Down, Enter, Space. The one problem is that the ESC key is a small chicklet up in Alaska. This is easily fixible if you've got one of the programmable models (the Classic or higher, don't get the stripped down model without any internal memory). There are some stupid keys that are close to home that can be redefined to whatever you want without pain (CAPSLOCK, Insert).

    And for mousage, I've got a Cirque touchpad glued to the middle of the keyboard. Arguably, this sucks, but my philosophy is to avoid mousing anyway.

    But, despite the fact that the Kinesis contoured models are clearly the best, they are also clearly not perfect. They're rather thick: I put mine in my lap, and I'd still rather have it a little lower. They've got a bit of a hump, but it's not quite as high as something like an MS Natural, and it probably should be. Also, the keyboard pockets seem a tad close together to me. (One of these days I'm going to try sawing one in half, so I can dangle my hands at my side, ala the infamous Fourteen Dollar Keyboard [thecraftstudio.com] hack.).

    They also take some re-training time of course, but what the hell, if you're an Emacs adept you can handle it.

  • If you buy a keyboard where your arms don't move around, you're asking for trouble. A split keyboard is ok but this one mounted on a chair could harm your arms more than help them.

    I had bad arm pain during a period of two years. It came and went before the last time I suffered for more than half a year. After visiting many doctors, I finally got some really good advice that helped me solve the problem. Since then I haven't had any problems whatsoever.

    First of all, don't rest your hands in front of the keyboard when you type. This kills your wrists as all the finger movement is applied at the exactly same spot inside your wrist. Also blood circulation is not good enough as your arms don't move. So keep your hands in the air and move them around while you type. Feel free to rest your arms on the support between typing, though.

    Also do work out. Lift heavy weights or play some ball game. Shot put throwing is great as it's both heavy and explosive. Exercise strenghtens your muscles and gives them something heavier to do as typing is not heavy enough to keep you muscles in shape.

    Quite frankly, I'd throw most ergonomic keyboards away. As there's not that much research done about typing injuries, many of them end up causing trouble.

    The usual disclaimer. Do consult a doctor...

  • Plusses: Awesome keyboard.

    Minuses: Costs money.

    That said, I'm never switching back. If you want USB, they sell a USBPS/2 adapter, which works fine on my box. Mac versions are available. I've had very little trouble, and what trouble I've had, they've been very good about fixing.

    I recommend getting the programmable model; it really is that much better.

    I've been using these for a few years now, and I have had much better results with them than I ever had with other keyboards. No failures from old age per se; the one that did start acting up was diagnosed as a hardware problem, and Kinesis shipped me replacement circuit boards and new ROMs.

    Great keyboards. I bought mine through DMG ergonomics; I think it was 'www.dmb-ergonomics.com'. 10% off list price. :)

  • Don't know how much mobile work you do, but you might want to try out Handykey [handykey.com]'s Twiddler [handykey.com]...

    Eventually, they're supposed to be releasing their "Twiddler 2", which should have a proper AT/PS-2 interface. The Twiddler only uses the keyboard port as a power source; the serial interface is what carries actual data.

  • These have been around for years in Britain. I remember seeing them in the Osborne "Home Computer Course" magazine. I've never used one myself, but they look cool, anyway. :-) www.maltron.co.uk [maltron.co.uk]
  • I'll lose some karma points for this but I agree with you. After spending the last couple of years (10-12 hours a day) firmly planted in front of a monitor my wrists and forearms would begin to ache. I looked at a couple of ergonomic keyboards to help relieve the strain and found that the M$ keyboard relieved the strain and was the easiest to re-train my hands to use. Using it in conjuction with a Logitech Trackman Marble FX has completely fixed the problem for now.
  • I agree with the not good for quake part, and the not good for photoshop part.

    I have a trackman marblefx for my mouse, and I also use a drawing tablet under photoshop. Drawing tablets aren't good for doing menu things, as they have a tendency to slide the cursor. The trackball is pretty accurate for selections though. You can do a straight across line, and clicking (or letting go of the button) does not move the cursor.

  • I've gone through a lot of pain a few years ago, I had shooting pains down my arms, sore wrists, sore neck and more. The solution is only partially to get better ergonomics, the real solution is to build up your body more with something like yoga. Yoga is great because you don't have to be in great shape to do it, and there are lots and lots of different exercises to get into all the different parts of your body that might be causing problems. Your arms might be hurting because of something in your back, or your neck, or any number of places. Our body is totally interconnected, just like a program, if you have a bug in one part, it can show up in a number of places, and you have to be a good debugger to find it. Likewise, look around, there are lots of different approaches to yoga, and to health in general. Take 15-30 minutes out of your programming day and debug your body! You wouldn't stand for bugs in your programs, don't stand for bugs in your body. With yoga, I'm both much more physically healthy, as well as much more mentally agile and aware. There are lots of web resources for yoga, but the best way is to find a nice yoga teacher who can show you things you might have overlooked in your own body. The best part, yoga classes are *full* of women, typically between 80-95% of the people in yoga classes are women! Toned, flexible and in touch with their bodies women. I met my current girlfriend in a yoga class, and I have never been happier. Try it out! You'll love it!
  • There really is no way to completely prevent wear and tear when using your wrists abusively and excessively, particularly if you have smaller wrists with a narrow carpal tunnel.

    The problem that arises is inflamation of the nerve within your carpal tunnel. The surgical solution is to cut the carpal tunnel open such that the nerves can rub around without as much friction and pressure. This does not always help.

    The most effective way to help prevent carpal tunnel is to build up the forearms. For example, taking a rope and tying it to a stick at one end and a weight (light) at another serves as a great tool for exercising the forearms. You twirl the stick with your hands on either side of the rope, such that the rope wraps around the stick in the middle, and the weight lifts off the ground. Then going in the reverse "twist" you put the weight back down to the ground. This strengthens the muscles around the carpal tunnel and makes the rubbing less prone to inflamation.

    Other highly-wrist oriented exercies may help, but high-impact sports like squash and raquetball actually tend to irritate more than help (although they do help, but inflamation of the carpal tunnel nerve for any reason tends to leave it inflamed for a while). However, Judo (Budo, depending on where you hail from) is an excellent way to strengthen your wrists without high-impact (unlike contact martial arts, such as Ju Jutsu or Tae Kwon-Do) and is less tedious than a stick + rope + weight approach.

    Carpal tunnel syndrome affects millions of people, the result of which is lost work and frustrated workers. Surgery is an option, but proper exercise can help prevent the problem in the first place.

    Hope that helps.

  • I use Kinesis myself, and I have to say it has very positive effect on me. My wrist rarely go out before my mind does. I'm not 100% healed, I can still feel it in some stretching exercises, but it's definately better than standard/split keyboards like ms-ergo.

    The downsides: if you have to use the mouse a lot, it's probably not that great... but I don't know what can be done about that. I would like to see kinesis try to integrate a thinkpad-like mouse onto one of these things. When possible you should use the keyboard to scroll, not the mouse.

    It takes a few days to get really comfortable with a Kinesis. Once you learn, pick up a keyboard switch box for your other computers because these things are not super cheap and you won't be able to type on the other keyboards very well anymore. I bring my keyboard on trips with me when I know I'm going to be coding at the other end. Luckily it's a pretty compact keyboard.

    I found the best solution for people who have to use Linux and NT is to run a NT-based X server (I like X-deep32) and export your linux display to it. This saves a lot of reaching for the switch box, and you can cut and paste between the two. (Assuming VMWare doesn't cut it).

  • A decent site, with links to most of the major types of Ergonomic keyboards. I haven't had the need to use their product personally, but I guess I can start. Preventative medicine and all that. You can check them out at Ergosci.com [ergosci.com]
  • Are you serious? A week away from the computer?
  • That's odd... after I started using my trackball (Logitech Trackman Marble - no little wheel), I began Whomping-Ass-Dot-Com (sorry) in Quake. There's about a week or two or really painful frags as you get up to speed, but the control and speed that you get is great. I can turn corners faster and more accurately than before, and it makes a lot of things easier. There is that learning curve though. I don't use photoshop or similar programs a lot, but for general navigation, it really helps (plus my wrist doesn't get tired any more).

    Other people I know have similarly gotten better at twitch games after switching to a trackball, but it's not an overnight thing.
  • I've had the Adesso Nu-Form [adessoinc.com] for 2 years now, and it is awesome! It's even got a little 'pencil-eraser' pointer in the middle, but alas, only 2 mouse buttons.

    I use a Microsoft Natural at work, and it is vastly inferior to the Adesso. I think because the Adesso has a flat design, while the MS one rises in the middle. *shrugs*

    On another note, I've found that the big split keyboards don't do a lick of good for comfort unless I balance them in my lap--the people in my office think it's odd, for whatever reason.

  • Anyone try out the BAT keyboard [infogrip.com]? It looks really interesting -- keep one hand on the keyboard and one on the mouse, not moving back and forth. Mounts readily on a chair arm, that kind of thing.

    I'm still trying to get the IT bunch here to get one for eval. Comments really appreciated.

    BTW: I've been using Infogrip's mice for quite a while and love 'em -- reliable, feel good in an odd-sized hand.
  • I've been using a MS natural keyboard (not the elite) for a few years now and haven't had any problems with it. I'd recommend it to anyone who doesn't want to pay over $100 for an ergo keyboard.

    Now if only I could get a decent keyboard for work life would be great.

    -f00l
  • Rob, I know you do a lot of perl stuff; wouldn't it be great if they created a keyboard for perl hackers? The punctuation and symbol characters would be the default and you would have to use shift keys in order to type letters, rather than the other way 'round!

    This makes sense because the only time you use letters is when you're calling a function, naming a function, or commenting your code. And who comments perl code anyway? And you really don't need user-def functions either. Most of the things that require calling functions in other languages are done with arcane operators in perl.

    By the way guys, voice recognition is out unless you never do anything but word processing and email. Can you imagine trying to code perl with voice recognition? Unless perhaps you memorized and were able to use all the INTERCAL names [tuxedo.org] for the characters :-) (spark, crunch, flatworm, half-mesh, etc.)
  • Nahnahnah.

    The correct position is as follows.

    Head: Top of head, level with top of screen. The screen should be an armslength away.

    Arms: Bent at elbows. Forearms run STRAIGHT, with wrists LEVEL with keyboard, and keyboard SLIGHTLY angled upward, from the front.

    Legs: Like arms, STRAIGHT. You chair should enable you to have your feet flat on the ground, with the heels just ahead of the edge of your seat.

    Chair: SLIGHTLY reclined, with plenty of lumbar support.

    Oh, the monitor should be in front of you, not to the side.

    NOW! How many of us actually sit like this? My (Mexican) employers don't seem to give a damn. That said, when I worked for the UK Government, it was even worse...

    Mong.

    * Paul Madley ...Student, Artist, Techie - Geek *
  • A lot of it has to do with the environment and stress (this may sound like utter BS, but it's fairly truthful in my experience) in which you work. I use the same ergo keyboard at work and at home, and while I can hack at a program for hours on end at home, I used to have sore wrists at the end of the day at work. Also the arrangement of the rest of your area is important, I rearranged a while back after the sore wrists started and now can do 10 hour stretches without problems, although I still can go longer at home.

    Most damage in keyboarding comes from people holding their wrists bent outwards and upwards, and that's where the split keyboards help alot. (I can't stand the independent split, though, since I code and need to type with one hand from time to time while looking through hardcopy stuff, so I have a set-split.)

    For those considering a change but not wanting to fork out big cash, the MS Natural Keyboard (not the Elite) is a lot easier on your wrists compared to a normal 104 or 105, and you can pick those up pretty cheap. It might take a few days to get used to it, but you'll feel cramped going back afterwards =) And yes, I use a highly unorthodox keying method. (At least for me, they also don't interfere with typing speed, as I type over 100wpm. I don't use the MSNK, but a different one with a different split line.)
  • I practiced Aikido for several years before I graduated. I would love to get back to the dojo, but working for a start-up doesn't give that much free time anymore.

    Anyway, back to the point: I was starting to develop carpal-tunnel pretty badly before taking Aikido, but now I find that my wrists are hardly ever sore (except when I play my Dreamcast too long).

    It's also true that my entire body hurt an awful lot for the first 8 or 9 months of training (some days I couldn't even carry my backpack without excruciating pain). The dojo I practiced in put a lot more emphasis on falling techniques at the early levels than most Ki-Aikido dojos do, and it showed in the way that the beginning students walked around the day after a class.

    But after the initial painful introduction, my whole body felt much better than it ever did before. I use an old flat keyboard in a metal keyboard drawer with just a tiny metal bar for a wrist support. My trackball is on the desk in front of the monitor. Anyone familiar with ergonomics can tell you how bad my wrists should be hurting, but they don't. I still perform the stretches from time-to-time and I like to do weapons taigis in my back yard (does wonders for wrist strength). On the few days when my wrists do hurt (after particularly long coding sessions or Dreamcast tournaments), I like to find a fellow student (I still keep in touch with the dojo even though I don't have time to practice regularly) and have them give me a good working over and vice versa. It's worked wonders for me. I suggest trying it at least.

  • For me, adjustability is key, and a slight difference in position makes a lot of change in wrist comfort. That's why I've coveting the Aeron/split keyboard CmdrTaco is referring to. Together, they'll set you back more than a grand, but damn, I know those Aerons work for me. And as for the keyboard, well it reminds me of my old favorite.

    The Apple Split Keyboard.

    That one was a thing of beauty. Put it on a tray at the right height and it was heaven. You could adjust the angle til it was exactly right. Those damn Microsoft keyboards always seem to be just a smidgen off the right angle, just enough so they don't do it for me.

    Of course, Apple doesn't make them anymore, and I've never seen an ergo keyboard advertised that was as elegantly simple. You didn't even need any real retraining, and it didn't ruin you for "normal" keyboards.

    Ah well. More good tech Apple has consigned to the rubbish bin. Right next to my trusty Newton.

  • So I'm a 23 year old software developer, and I used to have major pain in my wrists and sometimes fingers (joint inflamation). I fully blame the problem on poor ergonomics. This is very very serious. If I am having this much trouble now, what will happen in 3-5 years? Will I have to stop typing? Stop coding? What would I do for a living?

    The thing with ergonomics is that, even though you can now go out and by a nice curved keyboard (I'm a big fan of the microsoft natural), it is still designed for a mythical "average user". Your basic compUSA keyboard is not guaranteed to work for everyone.

    I have adapted to my natural keyboard, so much that to use another keyboard causes me wrist pain within 5 minutes. This even occurs sometimes between home (the original big beast of a microsoft natural) and work (the slim elite version). I dread using my dad's laptop to respond to email when I visit.

    I think that I'm going to have to shell out the $200-300 for one of the kinesis [kinesis-ergo.com] keyboards. The cost is easially justified if it works.

    But what will I do if I adjust to that one also?


    "You want to kiss the sky? Better learn how to kneel." - U2
  • Have you messed with Chord keyboards? How about the Bat Keyboard [infogrip.com]? I found some research here [ucl.ac.uk] as well.
  • I switched to Dvorak a couple years ago, and it helped a lot. But I don't think it was Dvorak itself that made the difference, so much as it made me stop typing so much for the couple of weeks it took me to get back up to full speed.

    The important thing here is to learn to work smarter, not harder. Are you spending a lot of time online just fucking around? If so, then maybe you need to consider that your future meals probably depend on your ability to type, and so maybe you should get your priorities straight.

    Are you using your tools to their utmost? Have you learned all the shortcuts? Made new ones where possible (such as shell aliases, as another poster pointed out)? If not, today would be a good day to sit down and learn them (and give your hands a rest in the process).

    Are you making unnecessary work for yourself? Are you writing and rewriting things because you didn't talk about them enough with coworkers before writing them the first time, or because you didn't spend an extra ten minutes considering the matter?

    In other words: If you don't have to type it twice, don't. Ever. Your hands will thank you.

    -
  • What software does he use? I've been looking at different packages but its hard to tell what's good and bad.
  • I type at least as much as many of my friends and coworkers who have experienced wrist pain, yet I remain pain free. I have given some consideration to why this might be the case, and I have come up with several differences between my style and theirs. Some of these probably aren't relevant. Perhaps none of them are. For what it is worth, here's my list:

    • I am a heavy Emacs user. Because of that, I use a huge variety of different keystrokes, and I also use the mouse less than most people. Mice are believed to be a big contributor to repetative motion injuries.
    • I use several different keyboards. The keyboard on my laptop is different from the docking station. Neither of those is like the ergo keyboard I use at home. Thus, my typing positions vary.
    • I write in two different human languages and a variety of programming languages. The patterns of characters vary between them and so do my typing patterns.
    • My positions vary. Sometimes to keyboard is in my lap, sometimes it is on the desk in front of me.
    • I learned to play the piano at an early age. While I am not scrupulous about keeping my wrists up, I usually do. Piano teachers knew about wrist pain long before the computing world discovered it.


    If you see a pattern of varied positions and patterns of use, that is exactly what I am driving at. It is the limited range of motions that are repeated so often which are believed to be the cause of carpal tunnel and related injuries. And the therapy that is recommended for the early stages, and to prevent it, is exercising the hands and wrists through a range of motions that are unrelated to typing and mouse-clicking. Your keyboard or pointing device may only be a part of the problem.
  • I used a MS natural keyboard and liked it. Then I decided to go for something more radical and got a Kinesis Ergonomic keyboard (Essential, the lowest of the line).
    I love it. It's pricey ($200+), but my hands feel great. It helps if you know how to touch type with this keyboard since the keys are in a concave shell. I got mine from www.dmb-ergonomics.com for 10% off list. The keypad is integral to the right hand keys, which you can activate using a button on the keyboard or a foot pedal (optional accessory). The foot pedals are nice if you have room. One acts as a shift key and the other one lets you temporarily access the keypad for number entry.
    I've opened up the case and if you really want to, you could cut the board in half to use on the separate arms of a chair. It'll take some wiring to do it, but it looks feasible from a quick glance.
  • Does anyone have any experience with these? I think the idea is terrific, but of course implementation is everything. Can you reach anything even approaching the input rate of a regular keyboard?
  • I lucked out when I bid on one on eBay and the fellow running the auction responded that he had a whole pile of 'em, so I bought a whole pile of 'em. eBay usually has a few listings for "Original IBM keyboard" or "clicky style IBM keyboard" or something, usually for pretty good prices. If you're lucky like I was, the auctioneer has several listed and you might be able to get directly in touch to buy several.

    -=-=-=-=-

  • The biggest reason I've never switched to an ergo keyboard is because I still use a big clunky IBM keyboard from 1987 simply because I LOVE the feel of the keys. If I could find an ergo keyboard with the same key feel (like if IBM made an ergo keyboard...) I would switch in a second because I have lots of wrist/hand problems from typing so much. Are there other IBM keyclick lovers out there who have found an ergo keyboard they are happy with?

    -=-=-=-=-

  • IBM is the keyboard king. They are incredibly well made, the keys have exactly the right "click" feel, and the sloping is perfect. The only problem is that they are very expensive (last I checked a few years ago, about $150). But if you want quality that makes every other keyboard feel like utter crap, these are the keyboards. It does make a difference in your typing speed.

    They spun off their keyboard division into Lexmark a few years ago; I don't know where they are making them now. I stole about 5 of them from one of my previous companies so I would always have a good supply.

    As for these newfangled "ergonomic" keyboards, I'm not a believer. I think the key is to keep your wrists straight, regardless of the type of keyboard. I've never had wrist problems using a normal keyboard, but I think I got lucky by naturally holding my hands in the "angled" position that split keyboards use. I just angle them across the normal keyboard, rather than the "hands straight in" that typing manuals try and teach you to do.


    --

  • You can always have a look at VoiceGrip [iit.nrc.ca], a kind of plugin to help programming with voice. I never used it but I heard it's good. Maybe I'm biased, I worked there. Regards, Benoit Potvin

  • The M$ Natural keyboard is really comfortable for me. The only problem is switching between that and a standard keyboard since the placement of the hands is different. Just don't use MS Word also or you will go to /. hell.
  • While working on a final project for a class last semester I spent far too much time straight at the computer. Pain gradually started to build up in my wrists & forearms over christmas break, and when I returned to school I thought I'd have to make some drastic changes in my usage habits. Fortunately I found a site dealing with RSI (repetitive stress injuries), which suggested, among other actions, popping your wrist bones. What worked for me goes as follows:

    1. Put your right hand out, palm down. 2. Grab your right hand with your left. 3. Gently rotate your right hand counterclockwise. You'll probably hear/feel a joint in your upper arm pop. 4. Repeat with your left wrist.

    After a few weeks, I couldn't pop any joints using this method, and pain in my forearms was greatly reduced. Since then I've been stretching my wrist muscles regularly, and have been occasionally popping my wrist joints by interlocking my fingers & extending an arm, snapping the wrist down. I'm still not completely "cured" of all wrist troubles, but am not nearly as I was...
  • http://www.pfuca.com/products/hhk b/hhkbindex.html [pfuca.com] is where you can get them. They are quite simply the best keyboard on the planet, IMHO of course.
  • The Goldtouch [goldtouch.com] split keyboard is great. It is split around a ball joint and is totally adjustable. The keys have a nice feel, and my wrists have been fine since using it. The arangment of the keys is a little different, so that the mouse can be more within your comfort range. This takes some getting used to. I use it with NT and have never had any technical glitches. The Goldtouch mouse is great as well.
  • Switching to Dvorak made a much larger difference for me than any keyboard has. Given that it is optimized for typing in English, it is the logical choice. When temporarily using QWERTY it becomes painfully obvious to me that the standard layout is extremely suboptimal.

    Given that every operating system is easily switched back and forth between QWERTY and Dvorak, there is little excuse not to make the switch. It isn't nearly as hard as learning qwerty the first time. The only way to switch is to go "Cold Turkey" (get some overlays for your current keyboard). You'll be very slow at first, but you'll rapidly get faster and you should back to your previous qwerty speed in two weeks.

    I've been doing it since Oct '93 and am very happy. Like I said, it's hard to know just how awful qwerty is until you have used something else (i.e. masturbation seems like the greatest thing in the world until you have real sex). My hands do not trouble me anymore (despite typing just as much as I always have). The few friends that I have been able to convince to switch to Dvorak agree with me: it's far superior to qwerty!

    Burris
  • I have two Kinesis [kinesis-ergo.com] keyboards, one for work, one for home. If you aren't a touch typist, you will have trouble with this kbd. The stock layout also sucks for games, and I switch to a normal kbd for that purpose. You can also hook up foot switches to the keyboard, although I think that the official ones are over priced. I picked up a set of three switches with a controller from Bilbo [bilbo.com] that are mostly ok. Major weakness is that they can only be programmed from Windows, and the mouse button emulation has severe problems. I have the source to Windows mouse emulator program, so someday I should be able to fix that problem.

    One problem that people might attribute to typing is what I call "mouse finger." I have found that most mice (especially the Microsoft Mouse) give me lots of pain in my right hand. Lately I've been using a Logitech TrackMan Marble, which seems to help a lot.

  • I suggest a change in typing style. Two shots of whiskey will help you loosen up your hands and reduce risk of injury (as well as help you ignore the pain should you actually injure yourself, not to mention get those creative juices flowing). Now beware, more than two shots is inadvisable. Risk of serious injury falls to nearly zero after two shots but soars to 99.99% after 7 or so shots. (you'd never believe how much damage a trayloading CDRom can do to your hands, and 21" monitor juggling can seem like a great idea at the time). Well thats my $0.02 (sadly they're the 2 cents that I owe)

  • Take a weeks vacation (Score:3)

    by bluGill ( 862 ) on Tuesday February 22, 2000 @08:36AM (#1253428)

    I've found that every 5-6 months it becomes painful to type. At this point I need to take a week of vacation (Not less then a week, I've tried it) and let things heal. Come back to typing and I'm fine..

    Those weeks of vacation are to do things that do not involve typing. Sometimes I go to a week long church retreat, other times I go hunting and fishing. Maybe just remodel the kitchen. Doesn't matter so long as I'm not using typing motions.

    Between vacations I find wrist splints help - though what helps most is not using the mouse.

  • Re:Kinesis is the worst keyboard I've ever used (Score:3)

    by David Price ( 1200 ) on Tuesday February 22, 2000 @02:31PM (#1253429)
    Personally, I would love to see a speech recognition product that lets me type with noises. Forget word/phrase recognition! It should be possible to make audio character recognition much more accurate. To me, this would be the real hand-saver. Open source, anyone?

    I talked to a guy that teaches UI design; one of the things he mentioned was that voice interfaces for extensive text entry actually just shift the physical problems - your wrists get better, but you start losing your voice from all the speaking you have to do. It's probably easier to recover from, though.

  • Re:Dvorak, Chording, Speech, Etc. (Score:3)

    by bcboy ( 4794 ) on Tuesday February 22, 2000 @11:50AM (#1253430) Homepage
    Regarding ViaVoice, I've been hacking on XVoice recently, since the maintainer is currently tied up on other things. I have it running well enough to use XVoice for working on XVoice. ;) So it can be used for coding. I'm hoping to release another patch this week, which allows complex commands like "go to line 234", "delete 5 lines", etc.

    I'm finding two things important when working on code. First, it helps a *lot* to take advantage of scripting and completion capabilities of your editor, so you can say "copy this function", "move to the next function", "delete this switch block", or when entering variable names you only have to say the first couple letters & then use completion.

    And second, when you need to send character commands (e.g. for spelling variable names, or sending commands you haven't mapped to phrases), it helps a *lot* to use a phonetic alphabet. ViaVoice (and people, for that matter) have trouble with "b" "p" "c" "t" "d", etc., all those "eeee" sounds are hard to distinguish. But if you map them to "alpha" "bravo" "charlie" "delta", etc., it works well, and as an added bonus you get to sound like an extra in Dr. Strangelove when you're writing code.

    Pretty cool.

    Anyone interested in XVoice can find info on freshmeat. I've posted some patches against the development version (0.7) on http://thecraftstudio.com/bcboy/xvoice. More to come, soon.

  • A friend has (Score:3)

    by Nimmy ( 5552 ) on Tuesday February 22, 2000 @08:31AM (#1253431) Homepage
    A friend of mine got the Kinesis Ergo Keyboard and loves it. www.kinesis-ergo.com. It does slow you down at first, and it will make it harder to type on a regular keyboard, but it is a real wrist-saver. It comes with QWERY layout but is designed to be able to switch to DVORAK and other layouts easily.

    For the lazy, the summary of the keyboard is that it has depressed bowls in which the keys and layed-out. This means your hands are in a much more natrual pose. Also, big keys like return and space are pressed with strong fingers like the index and the thumb. I strongly suggest at least checking out the webpage. Its a pricy keyboard, but it pays for itself in RSI surgary avoidance.

    --Nick

  • Ergo Keyboards are not a panacea (Score:3)

    by John Whitley ( 6067 ) on Tuesday February 22, 2000 @09:55AM (#1253432) Homepage
    My wrists aren't in the greatest shape after typing pretty much non-stop for the last few years, so it's time to try a new keyboard.


    Ergo Keyboards are tempting, but are not a magic bullet solution to RSI. The very statement above makes a strong statement: "I've been treating my body in a manner inconsistent with its design." This can be as simple as bad posture, typing technique, and/or insufficient breaks. It may also point towards a need for a more physically active lifestyle in addition to the above. (Kudos to the poster who recommended Aikido or some other physical activity -- sedentary life is the bane of the geek.)

    I strongly suggest that anyone exhibiting symptoms of RSI, or who feels they may be at risk, read Repetitive Strain Injury: A Computer User's Guide [fatbrain.com] by Emil Pascarelli, M.D. and Deborah Quilter. This book can help you identify many common bad habits related to extended keyboard use. This includes posture while at the computer, wrist position, taking breaks, relevant stretching and exercise, and more.

    RSI needn't be localized to the wrists, even if it feels like it is. The entire upper body musculature (shoulders, neck, upper arms, lower arms, wrists, hands) is involved in providing support as you type. Double-crush syndrome is where nerves are pinched at multiple locations such as at the shoulders and at the elbow. Each individual nerve impingement is not enough to cause a problem, but the two in conjunction can impair hand/wrist function. The problem can often seem to be a "wrist problem" when it is actually more insidious than that.

    To use myself as a case study, I was feeling wrecked in the wrists after writing and defending my Ph.D. proposal. The above book helped me to identify many problems. E.g. I'd gotten away for years with bad upper body posture while at the keyboard, not taking enough (or any) breaks, bad mousing habits, and more. The above book helped me to identify these problems and learn to correct them. Even with that knowledge, recovery was a long and uncertain time. Since then, I have made it a point to become more active, including a whole-body approach to strengthening and stretching.

    That said, this book can also help you determine if you require medical help. At its worst, RSI can permenantly and severely impair your ability to use your hands, leaving you weak and in pain.

    If anyone would like more details, other book references, etc. please reply via email, removing all 'spam' from my email address.

  • Dvorak, Chording, Speech, Etc. (Score:3)

    by waldoj ( 8229 ) <waldo@@@jaquith...org> on Tuesday February 22, 2000 @08:45AM (#1253433) Homepage Journal
    Haven't we had this discussion [slashdot.org] exactly one year ago? That you posted?

    Well, there's always Dvorak [dvorakint.org], though the benefits of that are up in the air [slashdot.org]. (My inciteful comment on that topic (#47) was soundly defeated. (#190) :)

    I'm not certain that it would help, but you could get a big keyboard [customkeys.com] and feel like the world's tiniest geek.

    And there's those cool one-handed keyboards [handykey.com]. Again, I don't know if it would help, but you could use two of 'em and multi-task fiercely.

    Of course, the all-thumb keyboard [nytimes.com]. It's essentially ASL, but while wearing a glove. This one is my personal favourite. Probably not as good for coding (there's a convenience, or at least a learned one, to the location of the squiggly brackets, carets, parenthesis, etc.)

    Oh, and programs like ViaVoice [ibm.com]. Those are more and more highly rated. Again, probably not good for coding, but a hell of a start. Perhaps that combined with another keyboard, like a chording one, might do ya' right.

  • voice recognition (Score:3)

    by Poe ( 12710 ) on Tuesday February 22, 2000 @08:36AM (#1253434) Homepage
    My uncle only has the use of three fingers on one hand and two on the other. (airplane hangar doors are heavier than they look) He has had great success with voice recognition software. (under Windoze admittedly) He can compose and send entire emails without touching the keyboard. The keyboard will never dissappear, but it's days as a primary interface may be limited.
  • Years ago, when the Microsoft Natural keyboard was first released I happened to win a little Microsoft contest that basically gave me a lot of free stuff.

    One such item was a MS Natural Keyboard. I love it a lot, and when i'm typing on my laptop or a regular keyboard for a while I get wrist pain.

    A word of caution however:
    1. These split keyboards often put some keys in odd places (backslash, backspace, enter, the number six and seven and a the ever so important forward slash). TRY IT OUT FIRST! Go to CompUSA or your local computer store and try one out... or make a friend buy it first... or hell, but it and return it later if you don't like it. I like the MS one because I like the layout, the large keys, and the way its split.

    2. These don't cure your wrist, and it is still up to you to start relaxing a bit. Take a break every hour (pickup a smoking habit if you have to). It is sometimes hard in the middle of hacking to leave your code, but do it anyway.

    Find a keyboard that fits your hands. You dont want to be all over the place, and you also want keys that you don't have to punch down with a lot of effort. One of the nicest feeling keyboards (and loudest) was my old Zeos AT keyboard.

    The Microsoft Natural Elite (released 98 I think) is crap. They just released a new Natural that looks the same as the original, except with these stupid internet keys up top. (do these work in linux at all.. can i remap them? anyone done this?)

    Also, look into getting a quality typing brace.. they feel good.

    Your other option is to continue using whatever keyboard you have in hopes that you can retire at 31 as a multi millionaire.

    - Hugh

  • Re:They better! (Score:3)

    by gorilla ( 36491 ) on Tuesday February 22, 2000 @12:09PM (#1253436)
    burger flipping also contributes to RSI.

  • Ugh, well... (Score:3)

    by karb ( 66692 ) on Tuesday February 22, 2000 @08:59AM (#1253437)
    Wrist strength is *not* the only factor in typing pain. In fact, it's quite possible to not be the problem at all.

    Carpal tunnel, for example, is caused by (please don't fault me because I don't know the correct terminology) friction between your tendons and the sleeves that encase them. The friction causes wounds, the wounds scar, and that's bad.

    You can have the strongest wrists in the world (try one of those martial arts that involves grabbing people. Wow!) and you can still get carpal tunnel. It's a friction thing (corrected, I believe, by better posture -- but see my advice below).

    Basically, consult a physician if you want a physical solution rather than a hardware solution. Wrist strength wouldn't help you if have carpal tunnel, better posture wouldn't help you if you had weak wrists. Only one good way to find out.

  • I swear by Kinesis kbds. (Score:4)

    by haaz ( 3346 ) on Tuesday February 22, 2000 @08:53AM (#1253438) Homepage
    I'm typing this on my Kinesis keyboard. I don't leave home without it, literally, on long trips where I'm going to be typing a lot.

    Here's my deal. Nearly 20 years of computer use have taken their toll. I remember having wrist pain when I was 12 after playing Ultima IV for waaaay too long one day. By the time I was 22, it'd become a chronic problem. Finally, last year, I started investigating ways to deal with it, as it was simply becoming debilitating and too painful to deal with. I was having trouble picking things up sometimes. Bad news.

    Thinking fast, I looked up this topic on /. Found the old discussion on the same topic. Found Kinesis recommendations. Went to their site, read endorsements from people I knew. Was impressed. Conned company into buying keyboard for me. It arrived....

    ...and wow. Two weeks of using it as directed (it comes with a manual you should definately read, and advise that you should definately follow), my wrist pain had eased tremendously. I can now do push-ups with only a hint of discomfort. Before, my wrists would have buckled.

    One of our developers has his plugged into his G4, which has no ADB ports -- it's USB only. Happily, the keyboard's "natural" port is a PS/2 keyboard port, which can easily be adapted to Apple ADB, or to USB. This is good, as sooner or later I'm going to have more USB hardware.

    I also got a good three-button mouse. Being a PowerPC (read: Apple hardware) user, my computers shipped with one-button mice. Having a three-button mouse with Linux is darn near necessary, and I was tired of using our keyboard shortcuts for the mouse buttons. The new mouse (USB, plugged in via a PCI USB card) helped a lot. Less keystrokes == good.

    Other things: I bought the foot switch for the Kinesis along with the kbd. I got the 2-btn switch, which is programmable (like the keyboard). It mostly does the shift key for me. It's nice. I should use it. ;-)

    Other: Customize .bashrc heavily. I have lots of little aliases that save me from typing things like "vi index.ph3pf" or "cd /home/httpd/com/" dozens of times per day. More macros == good, as long as they're well designed.

    So, Kinesis in my experience has turned my life around, insofar as my computing life. I get pain when I have to use other keyboards for a long time, like when my hard disk crashed and I had to use her iMac. (It's got LinuxPPC and the MacOS installed. ;) I like the feel of the little iMac kbd, but after a few days, it was killing my wrists again.

    Exercise also helps. We geeks probably don't get enough. But anyway. Kinesis. I'd endorse 'em for the company. Do you hear me, Kinesis? ;)

  • Re:Take a weeks vacation (Score:4)

    by dav ( 5309 ) on Tuesday February 22, 2000 @09:45AM (#1253439) Homepage
    This is not necessarily good advice.

    It might work for the poster, but it won't for everybody. If your wrists ache to the point of actually constituting a repetitive stress injury such as tedonitis (which I have), then you have to undertand that you are fighting a battle to improve the health of your wrists.

    What you really need is proper physical therapy. You should see your doctor of course, and she or an assigned PT should give you daily exercises which improve the strength of your wrists.

    There's probably nothing wrong with taking a week off from typing, but you can't simply let your wrists atrohpy. It is imperative that they receive proper physical therapy in order to win the battle.

    Just to share some anecdotal details: I have been typing on average of >8 hours a day for about a decade with no wrist problems. Last fall I took off on about 20 days of vacation in a 45 days period where I hardly typed at all. Soon after returning to regular work I went into a 4 day code frenzy (~15 hour days). On day 5 I had a finished project and I couldn't type my name without excruciating pain. I was in a panic for weeks, certain my career was over. I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy.

    Working with my doctor and a physical therapist, I can now function at an acceptable level.

    • Daily wrist exercises with a special rubber band you can get form a physical therapist.
    • a few minutes of wrist stretches and rest for every 20 minutes of typing.
    • Ice is your friend. I bought an ice-bag from a drug store an apply it a few times every day. Ice is your friend.
    • Do get wrist braces. Don't get the generic ones from a drugstore, get a set from your doctor or physical therapist, they are more comfortable. Wear them every night while you sleep, but only when you sleep.
    • I replaced all of my keyboards with cheap ($30) Memorex MX 3000 split-ergo keyboards. This was difficult because I've always used and loved IBM fullsized trackpoint keyboard (I hate reaching away from the keyboard for the mouse), HOWEVER I can work all day on the split keyboards, but 5 minutes on a regular flat keyboard cripples me. I would NEVER have believed a split keyoard would help this much until my wrists became so sensitive to stress. It is really a HUGE difference. EVERYONE should stop using flat keyboards.
    • I bought one of those Gyro- exercise balls which work your wrists and forearms. They are really cool, however it is still a little advanced for my stage of physical therapy.
    • My doctor put me on Naproxen which is basically an industrial strength ibuprofen.
    • When I was in my worst stage, I found that IBM ViaVoice technology was a great boon. Voice recognition technology has improved greatly in the past few years. I was able to dictate emails and IRC well enough. I'd really love to integrate viavoice with Konqueror.

    Well I know this has been long winded, but I hope this can help.

    -Dav

  • Kinesis is the worst keyboard I've ever used (Score:4)

    by instant ( 29883 ) on Tuesday February 22, 2000 @09:05AM (#1253440) Homepage
    A lot of people obviously love the Kinesis keyboard, but I'm one of the ones that hates it. The finger motions required to use it are very different from standard keyboarding motions -- very slight side-side and up-down motions -- and they aggrivated my tendinitis much more than any traditional keyboard did. The Kinesis keyboard is also very awkward to use on a desk due to the high profile, and the lap tray is heavy and takes some getting used to.

    Bottom line -- it's a very unique keyboard and has a lot of dedicated users, but it isn't for everyone and it has a high price tag and learning curve. And they lied about their money back guarantee. After I tried to return mine, I got hit with a very hefty restocking fee.

    Personally, I would love to see a speech recognition product that lets me type with noises. Forget word/phrase recognition! It should be possible to make audio character recognition much more accurate. To me, this would be the real hand-saver. Open source, anyone?

  • When does damage occur? (Score:4)

    by slashdot-terminal ( 83882 ) on Tuesday February 22, 2000 @08:47AM (#1253441) Homepage
    Hey.. Rob, I was thinking of trying that very same keyboard despite the somewhat prohibitive cost. Would you recomend using? I'de wrather keep using my regular mouse if that's possible - maybe mount it seperately on the chair
    itself... Any thoughts?

    I am wondering exactly when in the process of typing with a "normal" keyboard do you develop wrist degradation or damage. I have been typing for a while and still suffer no damage that I can tell.

    What level of actual improvement are these keyboards over standard things you would find on a typewriter or a computer.

  • Solution to Bad Wrists (Score:4)

    by Syn.Terra ( 96398 ) on Tuesday February 22, 2000 @08:33AM (#1253442) Homepage Journal

    Wrists sore? Here's your solution: Aikido.

    No, it's not a keyboard, it's not a hardware manufacturing company, or even anything (directly) related to computers. It's a martial art, and it does wonders for wrist strength.

    I've been using a dinky flat keyboard for six years, and have been training with Aikido for half that time, and believe me, the second half of those six years were the better. Though I'm not suggesting every geek join a dojo, I am suggesting that every geek with sore wrists go out and do something physically demanding which will strengthen them.

    Funny looking keyboards can help reduce strain, but if you want to be rid of bad wrists, you've got to strengthen them before you weaken them any further. Aikido worked for me, find something that works for you.


    ------------

  • Important information on Ergonomics! (Score:5)

    by swordgeek ( 112599 ) on Tuesday February 22, 2000 @09:46AM (#1253443) Journal
    Disclaimer: I'm about to marry a professional ergonomicist. :-)

    Take a look at the message subjects, ( "I don't leave home without my Kinesis kbd" and "I HATE the Kinesis kbd!" ) you'll find the single most important and fundamental truth of ergonomics.

    We're all built differently.

    There is no single solution. There is no solution that will work for more than a certain percentage of the population. Furthermore, when you start to push your limits, the percentage that a given solution works for drops drastically.

    Let's apply this specifically to keyboards.

    If you use a keyboard for an hour or two per week, you can probably get away with almost any keyboard on the market. If you use a keyboard an hour a day, then some general purpose keyboards won't work for you. Others will. If you use a keyboard eight hours a day (or more!), then you are pushing the limits of what your hands and wrists can sustain, and will have to find the _precise_ ergonomic solution that works best for you. In other words, you have to go out and try as many keyboards as you can to find the one that causes the least problems ***FOR YOU***!!! The guy beside you might have stronger forearm muscles, narrower shoulders, double-jointed knuckles, or a thousand other more subtle variations which would make his perfect solution a disaster for you. EXPERIMENT! Try 'em all out, and try 'em again.

    However, there's another side to the coin. If you're looking to minimise pain and/or damage, there's a good chance you're spending too much time at it. With the death of mechanical typewriters and manual carriages, we're currently often spending eight solid hours typing (with the odd bit of mousing on the side--the next time you give your sweetie a backrub, pay attention to where the tightest muscles are. If they use a computer extensively, I almost guarantee it'll be on their mouse side), without moving any other parts of our bodies. This is not what we were designed to do!

    Make a point of getting some flexing in during the day. Get up and walk around for a minute every half hour or so. Shake your hands out after typing a long block.

    If, after finding a good ergonomic solution and loosening up your muscles, you're still suffering, take a (real--weeks!) break, and see a professional.

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