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Handhelds Hardware

Cheap Linux PDAs 127

Posted by CmdrTaco from the stuff-to-hack-on dept.
An anonymous reader says: "With all the talk of the dreamcast port I figured I'd post a link to This deal - a "developer" model Agenda Linux PDA for $179 -- a bit more expensive than the DC, but it'll fit in ya pocket ;)" Apparently a soon-to-be-released color version of this PDA was being shown at LWCE (I missed it). I finally got my hands on an iPaq, so hopefully I'll have time soon to try PocketLinux (which sadly lacks a calandering app), as well as getting X11 on it. I still want to use an iPaq as a wireless X11 terminal. But first I must complete my MAME cabinet. One project at a time ;)
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Cheap Linux PDAs More

Cheap Linux PDAs

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  • I'm not proud of this, (Score:4)

    by Shoeboy ( 16224 ) on Sunday February 04, 2001 @10:30AM (#457559) Homepage
    But I'd like to get 8 PDAs and install linux on them.
    Then I'd configure them in a wireless beowulf cluster.
    It wouldn't be useful for anything, but can you imagine the bragging rights?
    Most of my friends would look at me with newfound respect.
    Which says more about my friends than it does about beowulf clusters of PDA's, but hey, what can you do?
    This idea really appeals to me.
    Maybe I should seek professional help.
    --Shoeboy
  • You've obviously never had to sit in a women's clothing store while your wife picks out the one perfect outfit in the entire universe. I have, and believe me a C++ compiler and vim would make me a happy man. And while we're at it, why do they put women's magazines on the tables at women's clothing stores? The women are the ones shopping, and the men are the ones with time to read something...

    I rest my case.
  • The people making those comments are probably young [i.e. generation y] Americans. And everybody knows we don't give a shit about our freedoms :P Just as long as you don't take Carson off TRL, we'll be just fine!!!
    -Rylfaeth
  • X is an extremely inefficient protocol when it comes to network usage, it works great when the X server is on the same machine as the client, and works tolerably over a 10 megabit network, but even over broadband it is too slow, and over a wireless connection - you must be joking.

    VNC [att.com] works much better over slower connections than X, and there are clients for most popular platforms (although I am not aware of one for the Palm pilot).

    --

  • VNC for Palm (Score:3)

    by Qube ( 17569 ) on Sunday February 04, 2001 @12:07PM (#457563)

    here [berkeley.edu].

    PocketPC version here [conduits.com].

  • My Review (Score:4)

    by Kristopher Johnson ( 129906 ) on Sunday February 04, 2001 @02:23PM (#457564)
    I've had mine for a little over a week. Here are my impressions:
    • The size is nice. You can't tell from the web site photos, but it's about the size of the Palm m100, but with a larger screen. The screen provides 160x240 pixels.
    • The kernel (2.4.0), device drivers, and basic utilities are still under development. But it's good enough to use as a development platform--very stable in my experience.
    • It's "real" Linux, with an X server, TCP/IP stack, etc. It's not a dumbed-down "embedded Linux".
    • It's slow. Part of this is due to lack of FPU. The developers are working on this.
    • FLTK is the primary API for doing GUIs. There is an FLPDA library that provides common look-and-feel across apps.
    • The handwriting recognition is not usable. You'll have to use the on-screen keyboard (or telnet in from a desktop machine).

    There's a SourceForge project, http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/agtoys, that will provide an area for developers to post their stuff. You may want to pay attention to see what people are doing. (The site is new, so there's nothing there yet.)

  • (although I am not aware of one for the Palm pilot)

    Look here [btinternet.com].

  • Yeah, and used cars are cheaper than new ones.
  • Maybe too much money?
  • Tell me when you get Quake running on those!


  • Nonsense. I use my PDA for humanistic goals only. Look at my schedule for tomorrow:

    8:30 - Fight The Man
    9:45 - Throw wooden shoe in grinding gears of capitalism
    11:00 - Sing "We Shall Overcome" on lawn at local IBM installation
    12:00 - Lunch with Greenpeace

    See? It wouldn't do to forget any of this stuff, so I put it in my Palm. Don't worry...I'll protect you from the big bad technology slavers.

    (\sarcasm)
  • FREEDOM OS?

    DOn't you see that linux OS is just as bad as any closed source OS?

    I guess YOU are too young to "value" YOUR "freedom"

    1) linus, the creator, is a millionaire about 10 time over
    2) the kernel is updated by linus, at his leisure. He also works for a company. Don't you see what can happen?? He could, at any moment, sell the kernal rights to a company, whereas they would have the ultimate power. If it were a "Free" OS, it would be released to the public under no license (NOT GNU/GPL/etc.). This is the ultimate freedom, which you fail to realize.

    3) if I want to sell gpl'd source, I am forced to give out my source as well, this isn't freedom.

    I value my freedom, do you?
  • The new REX 6000 [rex.net] has 2MBs of memory, a touch screen for data entry, all useful PIM apps (like memo pad, date book, calculator, etc), and is still the size of the original REX's. That is roughly 1/4 the size of a PalmV (about the size of a business card). The thing is small enough to fit inside your wallet!

    Last but not least, the batteries last for 6 months of normal day to day use.
  • I agree that python is great all around; useful and light. But I just don't understand this rabid anti-java sentiment here on slashdot. I mean no one is holding a gun to your head to use it.

    Also have you considered that this might be an implementation problem on Kaffe's part? Imean wouldn't something like the KVM be a better option?
  • That's the way it works on PocketLinux. But loading an application takes a 2-10 seconds, when you run it for the first time since you booted. After an app has been initally loaded, it comes up faster, but it's still a painful experience at this point.
  • Check www.yopy.com [yopy.com] for the latest.
    The kind folks at Gmate/Samsung will sell you a dev kit for a trifling $790. Granted, the unit has some nice specs, but that's a hell of a price for a beta model PDA and some free software on a CD. Compared to that, $180 for an Agenda looks pretty cheap.
  • I played doom on it. It was about 2fps but hey, it was a PDA, very slick.
  • The powerdrain has gotten MUCH better with
    more recent versions of the system software.

    Two AAA's now last about two weeks with the
    machine in 'hibernation' mode - and 6 hours
    or so if you leave it fully turned on.

    For the usage most people have for PDA's, that's
    not *too* bad.

    Note that the version that's out now is for
    developers - it is NOT the final consumer version.

    This version has more memory and more flash than
    the consumer unit will have/need - and that may
    have an impact on the battery life too.

  • Warning troll
  • It's DEFINITELY not vaporware. I bought one
    just after Xmas - and I have it in front of
    me right now - I've been happily writing
    programs for it for several weeks. It runs
    Linux and Xfree - as advertised - for real.

    You can run PPP on it - so you can telnet into it
    or out of it, use NFS with your PC and it's little
    flash memory 'disk drive', etc, etc.

    Most PC/Linux programs can be compiled to run
    on it - although the 160x240 monochrome screen
    is going to be a bit limiting and most GUI-based
    programs need some UI tweaking to make them
    usable.

    You can even run 'bash' on it's little screen.

    **BUT** the software is still pretty raw...this
    is good hardware - but the community needs to
    help out with getting the software together.

    The handwriting recognition really sucks - but
    it has a 'soft keyboard' that's moderately usable.

  • Couldn't Be Happier (Score:3)

    by mchappee ( 22897 ) on Sunday February 04, 2001 @07:42PM (#457579)
    I received my Agenda about three weeks ago and I must say that I couldn't be happier. I'm not really using it as a PDA, but as a Mobile Linux Box. For less than $200 I can use it to dial into a network, mount drives via NFS, run just about an X app locally or from a remote Xserver, send/receive e-mail, and many, many other things. The convenience factor of running Linux is amazing. Don't like to use rsync to back it up? Fine, NFS mount the Aganda's drive and tar it up! Don't like using the tiny keyboard for Agenda administration? Fine, telnet to it and do anything that you like. ftpd, httpd (Apache and smaller), fetchmail, and other daemons have already been ported.

    The "YoPaq" is nice, I'm sure, but it's too expensive. We can deploy these little guys to our entire sales force without batting an eyelash.

    Matthew
    Orasoft.org
  • Hmmm - interesting link.

    The Franklin machine doesn't run Linux though.

    A "proprietary" Franklin OS running on a
    "proprietary" RISC CPU...which means that it's
    going to be a pain to port things onto it.

    The Agenda runs a fairly standard Linux setup
    with Xfree on a MIPS CPU - which is well supported
    by the GNU utilities. People are compiling
    regular Linux utilities for it on a
    several-per-day basis without too many reported
    problems.

    The Franklin's developer version is also quite
    a bit more costly than the Agenda...although
    you may get more bang for your buck in terms
    of hardware...it's hard to tell.
  • If you're worried about this, do what I do. Don't own a PDA or a cellphone.
  • no, silly, that's what grad students are for, writing the code. However, I am an undergrad and hence do not recieve grad students, so I will focus my efforts on the science until I am accomplished enough to warrant my own lackie grad students to do my coding while I concentrate on the important stuff.
  • SysAdmin Mag ran a dilbert a few months back...Dilbert was lookin at his hand funny and dogbert asked him what he was doin....Dilbert was surfin the web on his PDA ring that displayed 1 char at a time. These PDA things are never gonna see widespread use until people can download and view large amounts of smut on them...preferably streaming color video. Maybe the guy with the PDA beofwulf cluster idea would consider running a streaming QuickTime smut server.
  • Since when was the word "calendar" a verb anyway?
  • Either that or he doesn't want to run Linux. Perhaps he wants to play Half-Life or just watch a DVD. Maybe he wants applications that are written by people whose job security depends on the quality of their work, not script kiddies trying to be more 1337 than the 15-year-old down the street. Or maybe he has a $10 Yamaha sound card like me and wants to hear more than the chirping noise that it makes when linux crashes.
    --
  • is a troll someone who is against the grain of the regular sheep?

    As long as the sheep are desciples of the Great Open Source Movement. Welcome to Slashdot, leader of the "Closed Minds for Open Source" coalition. Andover.net ownz j00!
    --
  • There are so many things wrong with that posting, I'm not sure where to start.

    First of all, PDA users are no more "beholden" to a time schedule than users of good old date books and pocket calendars. They serve the same exact function, with the PDAs offering advantages in ease of use.

    Second, tracking devices have been around for quite a while now. UPS and FedEx track ground shipments via GPS and cell technology, as do many other private shipping companies. The technique is not at all exclusive to Europe. And as for tracking individuals, cops can already track people by cell triangulation. How would PDAs make a difference?

    And what does this have to do with Linux on PDAs?

    BTW, if you're gonna use big words, you might want to consult a dictionary first.

    Oh crap, did I just feed the troll? Dammit.

    -Gabe
  • Heh heh! Touche!
  • This was a great notice. It just so happens that Icras a spinoff from the old General Magic went out of business, taking the Magic Cap OS with it. Now admittedly the OS was a market place dud. But I still think its one of the best designed PIMs out there completely integrated even with email. So I'm planning to use the Agenda to create an opensource version of the Magic Cap PIM.

  • Has anyone actually been able to buy one of these Agenda things? I've been hearing off and on about it since fall of '99, always it's "coming soon" or "prerelease" or "blah". Screw that, tell me about it when it's shipping. All the linux-running coolness doesn't count for Jack Shit if you can't actually, physically, right-now-not-next-quarter-or-"soon" buy the thing.

    Side notes to some previous posters: why linux instead of (PalmOS/WinCE/other-commercial-OS): because we said so. ;-) Why linux instead of BSD? difference is epsilon small, so if you don't like linux, quitcherbitchin' and port. whining = less time to code! (the NetBSD port proliferation in particular seems a likely avenue for a BSD-on-PDA approach)


    --
    Fuck Censorship.
  • Hrm... wireless web servers... A cool idea, although I'm not sure what the advantages would be.
    I wish you luck in your adventure for coolness.

    -Gabe
  • Check out http://www.handhelds.org/z/wiki/HandheldsApps . Someone (Tor-Åke Fransson) cut down the memory requirements of althea (http://althea.sourceforge.net) to make a great GUI IMAP e-mail client ideally suited to a low memory computing device.

    ---
    Check out http://althea.sourceforge.net for a spiffy looking Open Source, free as in speach and beer, stable IMAP e-mail client for X windows.

  • Because some people would rather spent 300 pounds (uk price, for a half decent pda) than 2 pounds on a notepad and a pen.
  • Or you can go with a vtech Helio. Same price as the Agenda, or cheaper if you're willing to dine at the amazon.com trough, but it has a faster processor, a built in voice recorder, and yeah, you can run a couple different strains of Linux on it. (I currently don't, because Linux on the Helio is only about as far along as Linux on the Agenda. You can also get the source for their "VTech OS", seemingly under the same kind of license as Java.)

    It has much less RAM, true, but for me the voice recorder was the kicker. I use it all the time.

  • LOL! "The hard-drive" that's priceless! Takes me way back to my support days! I had almost forgotten how much it sucked to have to deal with non-geeks for anything remotely technical.
  • PDA's represent a sort of slavery, as the user of the PDA is beholden to a time schedule and can never have any excuses.
    The author implies that people either rely on faulty memory to resolve their overloaded schedules or lie about having forgotten things they did not wish to do. The truth does remain an option. Just tell people you have another requirement on your time. You don't have to be a slave to
    everyone. People with paper Franklin Planners already have this issue.

    It is surely the right of the employee that he be able to do as he wish when not at work, and even to have privacy and time to think while at work, but PDA's are an incipient threat to this state of affairs.
    Wow, where to begin. First of all, for profesionals in the US at least, you do not have the right to do whatever you want outside of work. There are legal obligations, mostly forbearances, that follow you. Secondly, why on earth would you let your employer own your personal PDA? Its $149. If you wish to own a PDA then buy a PDA, use it however you like. Heck, if your employer insists you use a specific PDA for work then do so. They are small, pants have two pockets. (Trouser for you Brits, stop snickering.)

    How about a bad computer analogy. If your employer offered you a $149 discount on a PC for your home, but was going to reserve the right to record all your use and snoop your documents would you take it? Would that become next major civil liberties issue?


    Now stop whining and go create something value as penance for this sad speculation. I will resolve two Debian bugs then work on some new open software. You work up your own penance.

    Don't bother moderating this up, just take the parent down and don't clog people's minds.

  • Go out and buy a New PDA with 8M RAM and 16M of flashable space for under $180.00 US for your hardware dollar that is very affordable. Then a linux to the mix you can compile your own kernel flash our linux apps onto and rsync it with your linux workstation
  • I just acquired an old US Robotics 1 meg "Pilot"(that's what it sez on the case) that doesn't even have the backlit display. Can I still use the latest palmOS apps on it without worry? I have no clue on how to upgrade the PalmOS, or even know if I can.
  • I finally got my hands on an iPaq, so hopefully I'll have time soon to try PocketLinux (which sadly lacks a calandering app)

    Oh, you mean a calendaring app. Do you even read what you post?


    --
    People who apply the term evangelist to Linux developers should be shot.

  • Oh I'm sorry. I said they don't have the balls. I get it...
  • the batteries on mine last for about a week. it is majorly a developers version - minimal docs. you need to read the maillist archives.
  • Mod me as OT, but I thought the whole Gen X thing (as it applies to americans anyways, I dunno how it applies to anyone else, except as to copy the expression..) was about those ppl being the 10th generation of americans since 1776 or so?
    in that case, wouldn't it be Generation XI? Or am I totally off base (If it's what the above poster is using.. what happens in another couple of gens, say, after z? aa, ab, ac, etc?
    -since when did 'MTV' stand for Real World Television instead of MUSIC television?
  • This might be a little off topic, but does anyone know where I can get a PDA that has only ash, telnet, and a few other basic things, for like $40 or under. I've looked everywhere but cannot find one for under $100, which I find to be a rip-off, mostly because i don't need a calander or X or anything.
  • actually we have an 11 mbps wireless network throughout campus, which is what i'd use. Tolerable over slow ethernet = tolerable over wireless. Plus VNC doesn't really fit my needs, I don't want complete control of the system, just a small dialog window updating to my display. I realize I could just have the thing post data and write my own protocols and whatnot but X is quick and easy for me. It give me more time to code simulations and not worry about display issues
  • writing my own client would naturally be more efficient, but I am a scientist, not a programmer. To me, reinventing the wheel is pointless when something exists that fits me needs. I already do this on a laptop, using a small chunk of the screen and a wavelan card. Being able to immediately, cheaply, and most importantnly, quickly, move this to a smaller platform is very appealing to me
  • a simple pager system with pretty graphics, maybe a chart, and the ability to interact with the dialog window. not quite the same
  • Maybe I have a bad attitude, but I don't want a job that restricts what I can and cannot do outside of work. To me, a job is simply a means to obtain money to exist off of. The job itself really doesn't mean anything. Granted, if I'm not willing to go along with my employer's wishes, I'm certainly not fit for the job and should relenquish the position. Being "professional" is for the birds. Being yourself isn't.
    -Rylfaeth

  • The site at yopy.org [yopy.org] appears to be down and has been for a while.

    Personally, I think Linux handhelds are a waste of time -- it requires too many resources (memory, processor, storage, screen resolution) to be useful on a handheld. But don't let that stop you.

  • Not everyone has all the time in the world to buy a new device then start rewriting the OS and apps for it to suit them.

    What if Pocket PC does everything you wantr already? And better?

    What exactly do you want to do that Windows CE will not allow you to do? You can write your own apps using C/C++/VB/Java/More for Windows CE.

    You can write your own device drivers etc.

    Apart from politics - what is the deal?
  • Why linux on a pda? PalmOS is better suited for this app.
  • One of these yet with a PCMCIA slot in it? It would be really cool to be able to connect to the net with one of these and surf. I had a buddy at SBC who had this, but it wasn't running Linux.

    Fawking Trolls! [geekizoid.com]
  • Why not?

    "If ignorance is bliss, may I never be happy.
  • Depends on what you mean by "one of these". The iPAQ can be expanded with a PCMCIA-slot. (But you can connect it to the net through an IRDA-modem too.. (Maybe not under Linux..))
  • Cor blimey, not a 'fp' fp, I'm impressed!

    Anyway, there's no reason you shouldn't run any OS on any style device, it all depends on what you want to use it for. If you only want to play traffic jam (klotski or whatever) while on the bus, then all you need is a stylus, and it doesn't actually matter what OS you're running.

    However, if you require more from the inteface for your application, then perhaps Linux cannot provide that for you. However, as alsays, you have 2 choices - run a different OS (and Palm OS is about as slick as I've seen for these things) or write the code yourself! Remember, this $179 pricetag is the _developer_ deal.

    FatPhil
    -- Real Men Don't Use Porn. -- Morality In Media Billboards
  • The X protocol itself has no problems with low bandwidth connections - only the applications that use it.

    Some years ago I wrote a couple of "real-time" status monitoring apps. One day I ran them over a 14400 dialup connection while doing some support work for the customer. One of the apps was quite good, the other was a dog. The reason for the lack of performance was a bug in the code which made the app update the screen far too often. On the local machine, and even on a 10Mbps ethernet, the bug wasn't obvious.

    The moral of the story for X developers - always test your code on a slow link - it'll make bugs like that stick out like a sore thumb.

    Of course, I wouldn't want to use an X word-processor or something like that over a slow link, but for some applications it works just fine.
    --

  • Be Aware of the powerdrain !!! (Score:2)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I bought one last year. It blows royal dick. The two AAA cells last about overnight even if you turn the device off. There is a major power drain on the board, period. In case you don't believe me, go to http://www.agendacomputing.com and check the discussion board. My personal verdict - this thing is a waste of money. I had my whole team ready to order and we had to opt out after the first one showed up. Maybe in five more years.

  • Re:Is there... (Score:3)

    by flynt ( 248848 ) on Sunday February 04, 2001 @10:09AM (#457618)
    Ipaq's need adapters to plug stuff in like this. But there is both a PCMCIA one and a Compact flash one. There are ethernet adapters for CF slots too. There are tons of Internet apps already, besides browsers. There are IRC clients, icq clients, telnet clients, even ssh clients. It is cool to go to the library and plug in and be on IRC :)
  • A screenshot of YDK is available here : http://myhome.dreamx.net/wserver/yopy/yopy.htm enjoy.
  • What we need here is some sort of (cheap) IP connectivity for our Linux PDAs. What could be better than having a PDA running linux that you can use to ping, traceroute, ssh, read and send mail, send first posts and trolls to slashdot and so on...

    rr

  • It's an organizer? (Score:3)

    by Ravagin ( 100668 ) on Sunday February 04, 2001 @10:10AM (#457621)
    so hopefully I'll have time soon to try PocketLinux (which sadly lacks a calandering app)

    Well... uh... I certainly hope that's in development.
    Hmmm, I know that one of the most valuable parts of my Palm for me is the Datebook app... the point of a handheld at this point seems to be that it is an organizer. Now, I'm no fan of the PocketPC, but I'd rather use that than a handheld OS that lacks basic PDA functions.
    I thnk that Palm may be the best handheld OS out there in terms of functioning as a basic PDA with a flexible platform. PocketPC is good for trying to squeeze a desktop into your pocket.

    Now, I ask this question with total honesty and openness: Besides the "hey that was a cool accomplishment" factor, what is the point of having linux on a handheld?

    -J
  • Yeah, the basic Palm Pilot features are all I need too. The REX6000 supposedly has them, and since the only things that I want to change about my Palm Pilot are: its size, weight, durability, and battery life... the REX6000 looks like a tool that I would like to own. The 6 month battery life of the REX6000 is too good to be true.

    Now, they just need to make a REX6000 which is shock proof and water proof (sometimes I think best in the shower).
  • I agree. An 'hello world' app takes only 1.4K of memory (and storage). No other OS can do this.

    And PalmOS is the most open OS for palm sized devices: you can find the source of built-in apps and some parts of the OS too.

    And for more open source palmos apps, visit, www.palmopensource.com [palmopensource.com]

  • Re:It's an organizer? (Score:5)

    by MustardMan ( 52102 ) on Sunday February 04, 2001 @10:14AM (#457624)
    So you can use it to run X applications wirelessly, and easily display anything from a monitor for your seti@home progress, to a instant message session, to the GIMP, to anything else that needs more processor power than a PDA has, but can still be used in a pinch on a small screen.

    In my personal experience, one thing that I plan to use something like this as is a portable monitor for the simulations I have running on a remote supercomputer, doing nonlinear dynamics calculations for my senior research. I can easily use X to display a progress monitor/dialog/error popup box on something I can take with me, so I can monitor my simulation at lunch, or while in a class, or on the bus.

  • calendar / pim (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    i overheard the ipaq guy (the one with the ponytail) from compaq talking to the chilliware people at linuxworld. they're going to make there nexxus pim work with the ipaq and pocketlinux.
  • StarOffice obviously isn't a console app.
  • Let me take the question a little further.. Why do I need a PDA?
  • PDA's are becoming ever more ubiqitous. They are spreading everywhere, and no self respecting businessman is without one. Technologically speaking, they are marvellous, and in this respect they van only improve when better screen technologies, better batteries, better processors and better OS's, especially Linux based ones, arrive on the scene. They could become mobile desktops.

    However, what of the social implications? PDA's represent a sort of slavery, as the user of the PDA is beholden to a time schedule and can never have any excuses. The electronic brain he carrys around with him has become a millstone, as it keeps him on the straight and narrow. This is not such a concern now, as PDA's are still simple, but in the future when they are web annabled they could be used by businesses to keep an eyes on their employees at all times, much like long distance lorry drivers in Europe are watched constantly by satellite. Is the employee of the future, and indeed today, to have to privacy at all? It is surely the right of the employee that he be able to do as he wish when not at work, and even to have privacy and time to think while at work, but PDA's are an incipient threat to this state of affairs. The most insidious thing about PDA's is that everyone see's them as benevolent. I am not saying that they need be dangerous for sure, I am just saying that it could well become an important issue. If I were a betting man, I would say that PDA's are the next major civil liberties issue.

    You know exactly what to do-
    Your kiss, your fingers on my thigh-

  • To knock a bunch off the cost by not paying royalty to M$ for one. Taking say $50 off the cost of a consumer item is a big deal.
  • >calandering app

    All that and it strains spaghetti too? (okay okay, it's colander but still =P )

    E.
    www.randomdrivel.com [randomdrivel.com] -- All that is NOT fit to link to

  • I have a helio now... (Score:4)

    by SurfsUp ( 11523 ) on Sunday February 04, 2001 @11:01AM (#457631)
    Simple, cheap. I paid $140 and they cost less now. 8 MB, 2B flash, re-flashed with linux+kaffee. Specs here [myhelio.com]. Java is just wrong for this - it takes about 30 secs to start, and 15 secs to load an app. I want to put in Python instead and see if that makes it usable. I can think of a lot of things I'd do with this, with a decent software infrastructure. Java is a dead weight holding this thing down, I hope that Python will be more like wings.
    --
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • don't be a spelling nazi, it makes you look like a dickhead

  • here's another [franklin.com] one

    It's at a similar stage to the agenda, but has the advantage of an MMC slot

  • There's a point to getting a free OS when you are able to build a computer from scratch. A CPU here, case there, MB, ram, hd, video equipment and suddenly you have a computer. Except for the OS.

    In such a box, yes, it makes a lot of sense to develop & run a free os. But on a handheld, which you cannot build yourself? The OS comes with it.

    I'm not against figuring out a way to run linux on these things; maybe eventually someone will develop a linux version (or app) that actually makes it more worthwhile for people to use that instead of WinCE/PalmOS.

    I'm still waiting for the day to come where we can build our own laptops, vs. buying an overpriced offering from a specific company.

  • All the linux-running coolness doesn't count for Jack Shit if you can't actually, physically, right-now-not-next-quarter-or-"soon" buy the thing.

    Well, yeah, if you're looking for a "product" then the Agenda Developer Edition will disappoint you. I'm betting it will be at least a year before they can sell these things to the general public.

    But I like the Linux-running coolness, and it's nice to see existing Linux apps compiling without change and running on this thing. Like you say, if there's an app you want, then quitcherbitchin and port.

  • I think what we have here is a case of someone expecting the developer edition of the VR3 to be ready for development.

    I have some news, folks: when Agenda says "developer edition", they mean the unit is for developing the VR3 and its subsystem. This is NOT a device that should be expected to be ready for deployment. You're getting an advance copy of the hardware, and with this privilege (yes, privilege: you're getting a 100% flash unit for around cost) you are expected to help Agenda produce a better PDA. If you wish to develop apps for it, great! The tools are all available. But the main reason for allowing these things out the door is so that all of the bugs can be worked out for the "official" release which has not happened yet.

    The only reasons to get a developer edition of a VR3 are (a) curiosity (which is bad, because curious people tend to expect it to be fully cooked), or (b) a desire to be able to replace the entire system -- OS and everything -- with something updated or something completely different. If you're getting it to have PDAs for your sales team, or if you're just looking for something on which to develop FLTK/mipsel apps, go elsewhere or wait for the "official" VR3s to be released later this year.

    Please...

    (Note: I don't have any affiliation with Agenda whatsoever beyond my membership in their developer program and a firm belief that these puppies are going to provide serious competition for Palm devices in the near future.)

  • I'll take my turn at feeding the troll.

    Get a grip man!!! If you are so cheap that you feel your OS MUST be free, perhaps you should get a decent paying job. $100 for an OS is well worth the money.

    You're missing the point. That $100 OS does not come with source code that I can tinker with and either expand upon (witness the dozens of IP Masquerade modules which help many-to-one NAT actually work) or fix bugs on without having to wait for someone else to fix for me. Now I realize that not many people fall into the second category but those who do (like me) appreciate it and it is worth a lot.

    If you want to go design your own, fine, but it will have to be for a hobby, because the financial costs of doing so will be more than $100.

    The current trend seems to disagree with you here. Very strongly so.

    Any smart person will tell you if you spend more than $100 on your efforts for a free OS, then you may want to have someone manage your money for you. You are obviously not good at weighing cost/benefit ratios.

    Obviously you don't know many smart people, nor do you have a solid grasp on the meaning of "value".

    I just thank goodness noone pushing opensource is working for my company - I would fire them on the spot because the whole notion of open source/free os, etc... is, well, stupid and begs an attitude that things of value should be free. They should not be free, they should cost you something and that cost should be commesurate with the value it provides.

    Thank God I don't work for your company. I've worked as a contractor at other offices with management as braindead and clueless as yourself. I would also think that firing someone for a suggestion would be grounds for wrongful dismissal.

    Sometimes giving something away for free brings in much more business in other avenues. Cellphones are a prime example of this. Give away the hardware and charge for the service. Hmmm... kind of sounds like what the whole Open Source / Free Software movement is about.

    I make quite a bit of money from free software. Some I develop, some I use and sell services based on the free software. Either way, money is made. And either way, your trite little rant gets you nowhere. Just because you don't see value somewhere doesn't mean that the value isn't there.

  • Okay, I meant to say "...expecting the developer edition of the VR3 to be ready for DEPLOYMENT [emphasis added]," not ready for DEVELOPMENT.

    Duh...
  • Now, I ask this question with total honesty and openness: Besides the "hey that was a cool accomplishment" factor, what is the point of having linux on a handheld?

    Uhm. stability, open-source software, and the fact that you can boast "Hey, I'm running Linux on my handheld and you're not." ;)

  • Turn off the G-brator module - that thing sucks down the batteries really quickly!
  • It's also about supporting a hardware company that truly endorses the open-source model. It's sad to see so many open-source afficionados buying PDAs from Compaq (and thus indirectly paying license fees to Microsoft). -- Kris
  • a couple of people already responded mentioning the fact that the vr3 has more memory and whatnot than the palm. It also has a 66Mhz processor, while i believe the palm just has i think a 20Mhz or so. So basically it's better hardware than a palm, hence it CAN be called a cheap pda for that price.
  • Looks like the right answer to the RIGHT QUESTION. Anybody know anything substantive about these ?
  • Wont be the same in an iPaq at 200 Mhz!
  • I would rather use Windows CE (PocketPC) than PalmOS any day. Linux will probably be even better.
  • Why did anyone start using Linux in the first place then? If people start using it, then apps will come. Saying that I started using Linux with the 1.2 kernel impresses some people (although I don't think it's that impressive.) It's not that hard to do; most apps will be compatible with few modifications if X runs.
  • 10PRINT"Hello, world!"

    18 bytes. Runs under RISC OS perfectly.

    Do I win a prize? :^)

  • Don't drop it (Score:3)

    by doorbot.com ( 184378 ) on Sunday February 04, 2001 @10:19AM (#457652) Journal
    Where's the quality industrial design? It looks like one of those cheap iMac-inspired PCs: They use the colors from the iMac, but don't take even the smallest bit of the industrial design behind the iMac. At least the iMac looks sturdy.

    Drop your Agenda PDA and watch it shatter as it hits the ground... it looks like if you hold it with a bit to much zest you'll crush it and it's bubble-gum flavored insides will spill out. Steve Jobs would probably like it, because not only is it lickable, you probably could actually take a bite out of it.

    There are many people who dislike the iMac, but most people have to agree that at least it has quality industrial design. So why is it, that when everyone decides to copy the iMac, that they leave out one of the most important parts of it's design?

    And let's get away from the fruity colored PCs/accessories. They don't appeal to larger corporate buyers, for one. Especially in a PDA, where the buyer is probably going to be someone a bit computer savvy, they are highly unlikely to be attracted to it because of the color. In fact, they might very well not buy it (when the would have otherwise) because of the iMac-inspired colors. Then again, die hard computer guys and gals would just paint it themselves. :)

    If only all my PCs were jet black like my ThinkPad 570... there's some quality industrial design, in a color that matches everything.
  • Is the employee of the future, and indeed today, to have to privacy at all? It is surely the right of the employee that he be able to do as he wish when not at work,

    The problem isnt with PDAs. This problem you describe is based on Class Slavery and the erosion of democracy being replaced by the new idea of "Corporate Rights". Ie the Right to ask you what you do in your own time, the right to own ideas/words/symbols/colours, the right to remove any/all percieved barriers to profit at any/all times.

    Think about 'root causes' when you look at privacy issues, pollution, individual stress, bad television, corrupt politics etc etc. Usually you find Capatalist Profit Motive as being *the* major "Root Cause" of most modern problems.

  • If you don't value your freedom that much, then I see why you think it is ridiculous.

    To put it bluntly, that's just stupid. This is a PDA we're talking about - it's not a freakin' political system!

    Do you refuse to shop in any store that has a "proprietary" (oh no! not that!) point-of-sale system running on their cash registers?

    Are you boycotting VCRs until you can get a Linux-based TIVO? (so, does anybody have the source code to the "application" that runs on the oh-so-Free TIVO? Are y'all forking out the monthly fee to the Man for the "proprietary" scheduling information?)

    Are you refusing to drive until the auto manufacturers start using Embedded Linux to control all the CPUs scattered around the car?

    I'm all in favor of Ideals. But you're not working with Ideals - you're just mindlessly bleating the latest KoolRad jingoism.

  • The point is that it's ZERO cost. Because the manufacturer has to charge nothing for the OS means, to me anyway, is that they can include better hardware becuase they do not have to actively work too hard on the OS. It also means they don't have to pay X amount of dollars to Microsoft or Palm. All they might have to do is write a few apps and that's it.

  • Re:Be Aware of the powerdrain !!! (Score:3)

    by tolldog ( 1571 ) on Sunday February 04, 2001 @10:26AM (#457661) Homepage Journal
    I see... so your *developer* eddition didn't work out for you. You mean that it looks like some work could be done on it?
    I too have been a little frustrated with mine, but I understand that the system isn't final. People are still working on it, writing apps for it, tweaking the kernel for it.
    Is it a finsished product, no. But if you read the developers information, it will not be a big supprise or dissapointment.

  • Cheap? If any number of 2nd hand Palm IIIe organizers are available on eBay for about $130, how is $179 "cheap"? Especially considering the software base, quality of developer tools and resale value? For slightly more money, go IIIx or a Handspring Visor.
    Call it a fun opportunity to hack on a Linux-based PDA for not an exorbitant amount, but don't call it a cheap PDA.
  • The point of having Linux is so there's a chance that you can make the thing more useful to you. If you get a black box which you can't change, you're stuck with it and its current bugs. If you can change it, you (or someone you hire) can improve it.
  • There are many people who dislike the iMac, but most people have to agree that at least it has quality industrial design.

    So that's the term for that keyboard and mouse. I'd always figured that there was a more business oriented term than "GODDAMNED MOTHERFUCKING HUNK OF FLAMING SHIT WHAT KIND OF MUMBLEFUCK CAME UP WITH THIS FUCKING SHIT ASS STUFF DAMNIT FUCKING SHIT", that I usually hear people say when encountering the iMac keyboard and mouse.

    I think that apple really missed the mark with that one. There are only 3 parts to a computer that really matter to the non computer person, the mouse, the screen and the keyboard. Everything else is the "hard drive" that most people don't understand at all anyway, but people can tell when they're holding a cheap piece of plastic and don't like it.
    _____________

  • Since the posted link doesn't go anywhere... (Score:5)

    by PhatKat ( 78180 ) on Sunday February 04, 2001 @10:29AM (#457681) Homepage
    Here's the site:
    Agenda VR3. [agendacomputing.com]

  • Agenda VR3d (Score:5)

    by Rambo ( 2730 ) on Sunday February 04, 2001 @10:30AM (#457683)
    I got one of these units back in December, and it is a nifty little gadget... However, anyone who buys these should go into it with their eyes open. At this point, I don't consider it ready for the masses by any stretch of the imagination, so please don't buy it to replace your Visor/Palm/etc with the thought that it will be ready "out of the box". Current units (with the help of the community) are now able to auto-sleep, although there is still no way to meter the battery voltage or have it shut itself automatically when the batteries get low. Speed is still an issue, as is handwriting recognition, etc.

    I'm not trying to knock the unit, but I would hope that people who are serious about developing for the device would purchase it (hence the "developer edition"). It seems like a lot of people show up on the mailing list expecting a fully functional unit, when there is still a lot of work to be done.

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