Weather Balloons as Wireless Telephone Technology 153
Under the plan described in this article submitted by reader RoscoHead, "Space Data would use un-tethered weather balloons launched daily by the National Weather Service to carry lightweight wireless communications equipment to an altitude of 100,000 feet. There, at the 'SkySite,' they would relay voice and data signals to remote areas at a fraction of the cost of installing cell towers or launching satellites, company officials say."
Ugly towers (Score:1)
Hope the wind doesn't pick up too much.
Re:Ugly towers (Score:4, Funny)
Sending up weather balloons to cover large rural areas rather than putting up towers?
To answer this question, we have to look deeply into the psychie of the average rural-area yokel. Does he prefer shooting up towers with buckshot or shooting down balloons with a high-caliber rifle. Which is more economic for the redneck? Will ammunition sales at WalMart effect this decision.
Is it cheaper for the phone companies to patch holes in balloons or replate a tower.
I didn't see any mention of this in their story. One can only hope that they took this into account.
Flying saucers are cheaper (Score:3, Funny)
They float around, usually about rural areas. They usually dont draw much attention, and would be perfect for something like this. Besides unlike ballons they wont explode, burn up, or any other unpredictable situation which can happen with a balloon.
Saucers could work
Re:Flying saucers are cheaper (Score:1)
Re:Ugly towers (Score:1)
Re:Ugly towers (Score:2, Interesting)
You cant shoot them down!
There was a "rogue" weather balloon [bbc.co.uk] a while back, which two Canadian air force CF-18 fighters fired more than 1,000 rounds of cannon shells into it, and the blinking thing still wouldnt come down.
I really cant see some yokel with a blunderbuss even scratching these things.
We need to stop building flying saucers (Score:2)
Only for so long... (Score:1)
Re:Only for so long... (Score:1)
Re:Ugly towers (Score:1)
Re:Very interesting (Score:1)
Also what if one was to come back down to earth and fall onto moving traffic?
Great idea... but I don't see it working.
Re:Very interesting (Score:1)
Re:Very interesting (Score:1)
I know some people can't be bothered to read articles, but this is the first sentence of the submission.
Re:Very interesting (Score:2)
Presumably, if this was going to be a problem, it already would have been.
Re:Very interesting (Score:1, Insightful)
About the USAF vs. Balloon story - yup it's true. They tried to shoot it down, but it's too soft for AAM's. Using the cannon was useless - the balloon was at a almost standstill, wich makes you come in FAST, approching in a jet fighter. Hmm, do I see a use of WWI balloons for tactical bombing? Until someone re-invents the FLAK, that is
Another thing - this story is at least 4 years old. Maybe NASA just churned out some more precise plans?
Re:Very interesting (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Very interesting (Score:1)
"Magister" means "master" as in "teacher".
Re:Very interesting (Score:1)
Rosswell Technology (Score:1)
Isnt this the technology our government was developing that everyone claims was a flying saucer(Including the Government)
Re:Rosswell Technology (Score:2)
These would be giant balloons (as in huff huff puff puff balloons, though in this case filled with helium, like at the circus) with some transmitters tied on to them.
Not exactly high tech, just thinking about an old problem in a new way.
(though the data transmitters are likely rather nifty)
Space Junk (Score:1, Offtopic)
Its just space! (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Space Junk (Score:1)
Re:Space Junk (Score:2)
Variation on a theme (Score:2, Interesting)
Im sure there will be many impracticality's pointed out in this idea, however, hopefully it will inspire some other ideas.
Re:Variation on a theme (Score:2)
...except for the losses in the coax. You'd really need to put the transceiver up in the balloon too. However, a plain vanilla wireless AP is pretty light. Perhaps you could run something like a stripped down AP in a lightweight sealed plastic box, with power provided up the same cable as ethernet? Ideally, you'd use fibre to connect it, but since the maximum length of CAT 5 runs is around 300 feet, you'd be running into air traffic control concerns. I refer you to: The CAA's leaflet on Balloon Airmanship [caa.co.uk], which states that the maximum height a tethered balloon can reach is 60 metres (195 ft) to the top of the envelope. The loss in that length of coax carrying the 2.4GHz wireless LAN signal would just nicely kill all your RF...
Consider the impracticalities duly pointed out
But it would work, to an extent.
Re:Variation on a theme (Score:1)
Though in bad weather, it qould be interesting explaining to folks that the network is "down"
Re:Variation on a theme (Score:3, Interesting)
However, that is really interesting. I assume a very high strength kite coupled with high strength string and a coax up the side with VERY good lightning and surge protection, and you would have a very good line of sight to 10's of miles away (limited by the curvature of the earth and your altitude?). All I would be concerned about would be lightning protection, kite stability, and signal loss from long length cable.
Other than that, it's an interesting idea. Anyone else care to comment?
Re:Variation on a theme (Score:2)
Re:Variation on a theme (Score:1)
NASA's Helios (Score:5, Informative)
I realize both the weather balloons and Helios are just means to an end, but using these things for broadband internet would be way cooler than the US's second-rate cell technology, which is what they want to use the weather balloons for.
Re:NASA's Helios (Score:2)
Doh, I didn't read the article carefully enough.
Space Data wants to operate as a "carrier's carrier," serving wireless companies that in turn provide cell phone service and other wireless communication, such as paging, to consumers.
So the balloon folks are also planning on offering "broadband" services too, and they won't actually be the ones responsible for implementing CDMA cellular. Also, CDMA may be better suited for rural locations [mcommercetimes.com] than GSM.
Helios... or, how to do it the hard way... (Score:2)
http://www.airship.com/prod/prod_home.
Better alternatives? (Score:5, Interesting)
Now we know that NASA has great plans for its solar-powered airplane -- including acting as a semi-permanent flying repeater-station, but I wonder if smaller, cheaper options might not be available.
For example... what about a much smaller (say 20-30 foot span) autonomous craft designed to soar thermals during the day (while charging its batteries and gaining as much altitude as it can) -- then revert to battery power and/or gradually descend during the hours of darkness.
If the energy required to keep these craft airborn in the longer nights of winter was greater than that availble to be stored during the day then they could carry a fuel-load to power a high-efficiency internal combustion engine (probably a very small diesel engine). Every week or so the craft would have to land for refueling and maintenance -- but that's not a big deal.
Just like the US military's Predator RPV, they could be programmed to land on a runway set aside specially for the purpose.
The cost of a smaller craft, particularly one that wasn't totally reliant on solar-cells, would likely be much less than NASA's efforts -- thus allowing more of them to be built for a given budget.
By using more craft, they could cruise at a much lower altititude than either the weather balloon or the NASA craft.
Using modern composites, low cost GPS, and other "affordable" technologies, such a craft could likely be built for less than US$10K.
Assuming a 50% duty cycle, a fleet of 10 craft could cover a huge area at a much lower cost than towers, and with the ability to dynamically vary the coverage area if required -- simply by repositioning the craft.
Less than $10K? (Score:1)
Re:Ouate de phoque (Score:1)
Then it kept dropping me back to the front page when I hit the reply button.
Hey, they haven't switched it over to XP have they?
Re:Ouate de phoque (Score:1)
reliability and clutter (Score:2, Insightful)
Practical Concerns (Score:5, Insightful)
Over the summer (in the southern hemisphere), I worked to help launch ozone measuring balloons, (same idea, more equipment), and we launched them only in fairly calm conditions. A balloon full of hydrogen is a fairly scary prospect when it's getting blown around. Does this also mean a commercial company will be putting extra pressure on the NWS to launch in potentially unsafe conditions? Scary thought!
Re:Practical Concerns (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Practical Concerns (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Practical Concerns (Score:1)
sum is singular, and mundi is a genitive in this case, not a plural ("of the world"). Although "Dominus" is a better choice in this case than "Magister".
"The Teachers are the worlds" would translate as
Magistri mundi sunt.
Re:Practical Concerns (Score:2, Interesting)
I spent six months in a weather station and launced ~50 radio sondes up to great blue yonder. One almost full hydrogen balloon burst while I was handling it and it was really close (10-15 cm) to my face. The hydrogen didn't explode. However, I have to confess that I was pretty scared for a moment.
The wind was about 12 m/s that day, if I remember correctly.
Re:Practical Concerns (Score:3, Insightful)
So presumably the hydrogen blew away and dissipated immediately? I wouldn't worry too much about it. Just don't let anyone smoke near the launch site...
Re:Practical Concerns (Score:1)
"The article states that the balloons were launched day in, day out. What about the poor
weather days where the wind is gusty and fast? Does the cell coverage on those days get lost?"
Huh? Balloons get launched at 1100 & 2300 UTC, pretty much regardless of what's going on
at the release site. They even have balloons made with thicker material for release into thunderstorms
or other hazardous conditions.
Anyway, now onto the article...I won't beat around the bush here. I think
that this company's vision is a retarded idea. These balloons rarely last longer than
2hrs on the way up to ~100kft. They might take longer to fall due to the parachute
(maybe 4-5hrs), but even then what are you going to do for cell coverage once your antenna is
laying on the ground in some rancher's pasture and there's 6hrs before the next balloon goes
up? That's not even considering the fact that the equipment could land be 150+ miles away
from the launch site! Plus you'd have alot of explaining to do to your customers as to why their
service is crappy when the winds are from the north or south and ok when they are from the west.
Oh well, that's my rant for now...in the meantime check out the upper air observing
sites around this part of the globe.
http://www.rap.ucar.edu/weather/upper/
Equipment re-usage (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Equipment re-usage (Score:1)
Re:Equipment re-usage (Score:1)
Re:Equipment re-usage IP & Hackers (Score:2)
What happens to a dead weather balloon? (Score:4, Interesting)
Inside the radiosonde package there is also a self-addressed prepaid envelope so anyone who finds it can mail it back to the weather service. No kidding!
Re:What happens to a dead weather balloon? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:What happens to a dead weather balloon? (Score:2)
Weatherballoons are usually let up in area's where commercial flight is scarce. If we want to use this technology for relaying radiowaves etc. this will change.. so we have to reroute all commercial airtraffic to avoid accidents?
I don't think this idea would be viable in real life situations..
A company will think twice if it faces possible liability suits when something bad happes during the descent of the payload.
Re:What happens to a dead weather balloon? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:What happens to a dead weather balloon? (Score:1)
Re:What happens to a dead weather balloon? (Score:2)
Re:What happens to a dead weather balloon? (Score:2)
The problem is, what kind of damage can this thing do when it returns to earth and on it's way gets sucked into a jet engine?
Probably very little. If the device is small enough it might even pass undamaged through the bypass turbofan engines you typically on commercial jets.
Re:What happens to a dead weather balloon? (Score:1)
Re:What happens to a dead weather balloon? (Score:2)
Which is why jet engines are tested to withstand bird strikes.
then large weather balloon + accompanying instruments will certainly pose a danger to the engine's integrity.
No way is the envelope going to be any problem for a large fan made of high strenth materials. The instraments are not that large either. The only thing which could possiblt cause a problem for a jet engine is the helium in the envelope, it would take a very big balloon to cause combustion failure for long enough to actually stall the engine though.
Re:What happens to a dead weather balloon? (Score:2)
Assuming it dosn't wind up in the sea, sand dunes, pack ice, etc.
Re:What happens to a dead weather balloon? (Score:1)
Extra tidbits:
There are two major type of balloons. One is latex which is milky/clear and basically goes to altitude and eventually pops. The other is a aluminized mylar which RADAR tracks to get wind velocity estimates as the balloon ascends. The mylar balloon has a few hundred 'spikes' on the surface which help stabilize the balloon in flight and reduce the balloon induced 'tumbling' motion.
AMPS is the "next generation" of weather balloons and employs GPS to track the balloon instead of RADAR. Same mylar balloon with spikes, but not aluminized (so it can receive the GPS signals better).
Space Data is largely old Orbital employees which is also based in Phoenix (Chandler suburb actually).
I actually have a few friends that work at Space Data (as well as Orbital).
Someone mentioned the Helios solar flying airplane as competition for this balloon idea. Look at the numbers. The $15m a year on balloons and electronics wouldn't even by a Helios, much less maintain it. Solar cells, fuel cells, exotic lightweight materials. Nice science project that will eventually lead to something commercial, but not anytime 'real soon'.
Re:What happens to a dead weather balloon? (Score:2)
I cannot get the maths right.... (Score:2, Interesting)
About 70 launch sites would be needed to cover the continental United States.
So there would have to be more than 51,000 launches a year at an annual cost is about $15 million.
That means they will release about 140 ballons each day. Firstly, I doubt whether only 140 sites will be sufficient to cover the entire continental America. Even if that's possible, it will mean that the transmission power will be quite strong. Commnunication engineers usually talk about the reuse of comm channals. What will be the implication of this?
On the other hand, $15M/70 launch sites approx equals $210000/yr/site. It seems to be a reasonable budget for reasonably large ground based relay tower.... I really cannot see the advantage for the alternative approach.
Imagine a.. (Score:1)
Re:Imagine a.. (Score:2)
latency? (Score:1, Interesting)
Small Black Dog - I've for gotten my password
Re:latency? (Score:1)
I've been thinking of this ... (Score:1, Interesting)
You'd just need a means to keep the position, don't know how the winds are up there, and if electric motors w/ propellers will be efficient at that altitude.
http://www.airship.com/ (Score:2)
Balloon transmitters - nothing new (Score:2, Informative)
Just another symptom... (Score:3, Insightful)
-
Re:Just another symptom... (Score:2)
This weekend I went to get a replacement battery for my wife's cell phone. The cost? A mere $50, *or* I could buy a replacement phone for $39.95.
Someone tell me again why the battery (that comes with the phone in the first place) should cost so much more than the phone?!?
Re:Just another symptom... (Score:2)
Re:Just another symptom... (Score:1)
USAF is running teathered ballons (Score:3, Informative)
They have 12 and tend to operate about 50% of the time. They can carry up to 3400 pounds and are costing about 2.8 million per site per year.
One of these is sending signals TV to Cuba.
Not feasible...IMO (Score:3, Informative)
Another company doing the same with blimps (Score:2, Insightful)
http://www.lvcm.com/walden/products.html#strat [lvcm.com]
The pictures look great, they also have cargo and ecoturism lenticular blimp projects.
The annoying stick in your head song for today is: (Score:2)
"You and I in a little toy shop
buy a bag of balloons with the money we've got
Set them free at the break of dawn
'Til one by one, they were gone
Back at base, bugs in the software
Flash the message, "Something's out there"
Floating in the summer sky
99 red balloons go by."
Re:The annoying stick in your head song for today (Score:1)
Now it looks like it's time to install windows and morpheus and so some video hunting.
Hope I don't get stuck w/ the cruddy euro version again. YUCK.
Re:The annoying stick in your head song for today (Score:2)
Whatever happend to Nena? (Score:2)
Re:Look @$$hole (Score:1)
HAPS (Score:4, Informative)
It's amazing how little press these systems have received so far, since it would take hundreds of well-placed terrestrial towers or thousands of miles of buried fiber to provide similar coverage and capacity.
weather baloons (Score:1)
you're breaking up... (Score:2, Funny)
"..What?! Okay, I must be on a bad ballon, hold on... okay, wait, I see something. Lemme just drive closer to it... Drat, it's just a carnival. Hello?! Hello?!"
This will be great fun until the anti-cellphone nazis figure out they can shoot the balloons down.
Check out StratSat (Score:2, Informative)
StratSat is from Advanced Technologies Group [airship.com] and will sit at 20km altitude for up to 5 years, using photovoltaics for power.
Hopefully it will be a bit more successful than the last big British airship... [btinternet.com]
Been done by ham radio for years... (Score:2, Informative)
In a library (Score:2)
WarFlying (Score:2, Interesting)
A little more seriously, why not buy a surplus weather balloon, tether it over your house and put a passive microwave repeater on it like John Dvorak did for his "bank shot?" Might make for a nifty way to get community wireless broadband out to the suburbs.
Re:WarFlying (Score:1)
Fortunately, there is a nearby freeway, which passes between the mountains - and a cell phone tower is nearly in my back yard. I gave thought to a repeater on the mountain, but forest service is rampant in the area due to motorcross bikers using the desert for fun, so getting to the top might be hard and dangerous (rocks, snakes, scorpions, you name it). I thought maybe bouncing the signal off the cell phone tower - but thought that might not be nice - it would be too easy to pinpoint me and my friend. So, I gave thought to a tethered balloon platform - unfortunately, even that has problems - keeping it filled, in position, tethered, high winds off the mountain - and, one other thing - we live right under a flight path for a nearby (like, three miles away) airport.
So, wireless to my friend's house from here isn't likely to happen soon (not that it matters much - it was more a "what-if" experiment)...
Just great... (Score:1)
Nader and the rest of the Green Party will have a field day with this one.
Goran
Re:Just great... (Score:1)
Oops... (Score:1)
---
Sounds like SkyStation (Score:2)
American Flagg Media Balloons (Score:1)
Fun Facts about Weather Balloons (Score:1)
The balloons pop around 100,000 feet, 2.5 to 3 hours after launch. The styrofoam radiosonde (weather instrument) take awhile to float to the ground, but are not in the air for 12 hours.
There are reliablility problems, balloons every so often ice up or pop prematurely... so they don't reach full height. However, I have yet to hear of a plane running into a weather balloon and crashing.
btw, here's me [clublard.com] releasing a weather balloon back in 1992.
Re:state capitalism (Score:1)