Sony Already Lost Media War to Apple? 325
Declan McCullagh writes "Sony's Walkman was the king of media players. Now Apple's iPod is, and Sony Connect was a flop. But Sony's problems may soon be even bigger: the company is having a remarkably difficult time coordinating software development across different divisions and continents, and some managers are worried that things may be getting worse. Will Apple's recent forays into the living room create even more of a problem for Sony?"
You have got to be kidding me. (Score:3, Insightful)
Okay, and now a crappy $300 stereo for the den.
Sony is a player in almost every personal electronics market there is, with the possible exception of "massage wand" marital aids. They can afford to lag behind in one or two market segments for a few years and bounce back.
I dunno... (Score:5, Insightful)
You can afford to behave as stupidly as Sony has for only so long in today's marketplace. If they don't split up their conglomerate into separate entities that can actually innovate and compete without interfering with each other, the market will do it for them.
Re:I dunno... (Score:3, Interesting)
If they get their company to work together better, they become the 800-pound gorilla that they are naturally set up to be.
Re:I dunno... (Score:3, Insightful)
There was a point we were talking about possibly putting our technology [kiyon.com] onto handheld devices. (We were way too late to be able to hit the DS' launch date, which is a true tragedy.) But the problem with Sony, our Japanese rep explained to us, was the way the company was structured: Even though our contact knew the CEOs of both companies well, that wasn't sufficient with Sony because of the independent nature of the silos.
It'd be one thing if the independent pieces
Re:You have got to be kidding me. (Score:4, Insightful)
Of course that was before the Second Coming of Jobs.
Re:You have got to be kidding me. (Score:4, Informative)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Pippin [wikipedia.org]
I think that if they used the X-Box as a prototype, that they could do just fine with this. They sell iPods for as much as video game consoles, and all that those are is beefed up mp3 players with their own clothing line.
Nope, not kidding you. (Score:4, Insightful)
Sony keeps trying to force unattractive standards on the market. From the Memory Stick, to Betamax to Blu-Ray it just never fucknig seems to learn its lesson about using open standards. That pisses people off and its why their consumer electronics division is getting its butt kicked by Apple and Samsung.
Re:Nope, not kidding you. (Score:2)
It's too bad, because I feel like they're a company that has just great ideas, but then takes those same ideas
What are you talking about? (Score:5, Informative)
This piece seems to suggest you're lying: http://www.forbes.com/home/feeds/afx/2005/10/27/a
Operating profit for Sony march-september 2005: 50.98 billion yen
Operating profit for Sony gaming division: 2.3 billion yen
Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you like. - Mark Twain
Re:You have got to be kidding me. (Score:2)
Which is a winning strategy: I don't have to research, since I know Sony will be among the best in any category. If I really want the best, I can figure out which specialist it is, but otherwise I can pick Sony.
Used to be (Score:2)
What you are describing is a marketdroid's wet dream: Complete, total, utterly mindless, brand identification.
It is the only reason that Sony has held on so long.
Re:Used to be (Score:5, Insightful)
Sony isn't the best at anything, and is overpriced at everything, but if you don't feel like doing any market research, buy a Sony and you will do okay.
- The Sony Cybershot is a pretty good camera.
- The Sony Receivers are feature-rich, support lots of inputs, and sound good.
- The Sony DVD player is a pretty good unit for $100 which plays most formats.
- The Sony car stereos work well, are reasonably powerful, and sound nice.
- The Sony laptops are slick little units which do a pretty good job of staving off "iBook envy" among Windows bigots.
- The Sony ear buds are actually a small step up from the iPod's offerings for only ten bucks.
- The Sony phase-cancelling headphones are a much better choice than the Bose ones you see pushed in most stores.
- The Sony cabinet speakers... are total crap, sure, but they're not really in the high-end speaker market.
The grandparent post is right. They've got a reputation for being "pretty good" in almost every market where they have a presense, and an easy brand to look for if you're a busy yuppy with no desire to study reviews and compare prices all day.
Not sure about that... Samsung? (Score:4, Interesting)
Honestly I am not sure your statement is as true at a general level for Sony any longer as it is for Samsung in the minds of most consumers, and I have heard less technically ept people express the same sentiments.
When I am not sure about a purchase today and have no time to look up product details, I am a heck of a lot more likely to go with Samsung because I can be sure of a general level of quality. I would say I have had some Sony duds over the last few years and do not consider the brand quite as reliable as you note.
Sure my 20 year old Sony CD player is great and still works. But I would not be likley to buy a CD player from them today.
Go into a Best Buy and look to see which electronics have the least number of boxes left on the lower shelf. Very illuminating...
It's not the stereo, it's the Mini and ITMS (Score:2)
And a somewhat expensive but easy to use HTPC for the living room? Only an HTPC that understand what people fundamentally want on TV's is in the end video, not programming schedules?
All of the sudden Apple has bypassed Microsoft and Sony into the living room. It supports optical out, and HDMI - so it will hook into whatever HDTV you decide to use. It has software that integrates well with the devices around it (sound familiar yet?), and a store with a lot of
Re:It's not the stereo, it's the Mini and ITMS (Score:2)
I already said "computers." And that was after mentioning that a Mac runs my media room. Sheesh, pay attention.
But it's more than a computer now (Score:2)
In fact I was paying more attention than you know.
This is exaclty the problem that most people have - thinking of the HTPC as a "computer". If you are trying to get something a lot of people will use in the lviing room this is not what you want to sell to them, because people have zero interest in complexity in teh area where they choose to relax.
Sure the mini is technically a computer. But did y
Be realistic (Score:2)
The new mini is the first Mac that can honestly be treated as a first-class video component nad not a computer you are jerry-rigging into the system. In short, something msot people can accept and use.
I am happy to point out to you
Re:It's not the stereo, it's the Mini and ITMS (Score:2)
There's a lot to be said for the freedom to do whatever I want with the files I've recorded, and pa
Freedom to do... (Score:2)
But I can do anything I want with the ITMS videos:
I can watch them on the TV.
I can transfer them onto my laptop for travel
I can transfer them into a video iPod for portable view
Re:It's not the stereo, it's the Mini and ITMS (Score:2)
Not for copy-protected HD movies, it does not. For that, HDMI requires HDCP (aka High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection) which is not implemented by any video card currently available. Nevermind the fact that the Mini comes with a DVD only - so no Hi-Def disks for you anyway. But yeah, you can use a HDTV as a glorified monitor, but that's a rather expensive one (why go with the Mini then?)
R
Re:It's not the stereo, it's the Mini and ITMS (Score:3, Insightful)
And how long until you can buy HD H.264 videos from iTMS? I think this is the biggest threat to Sony. If Apple can deliver HD content without needing Blu-Ray or HD DVD, then I can see both formats suffering, especially if Apple are first to market and if they offer a rental model (e.g. $1 for a 7-day version, $5 for a version you can archive). Plug in a few hundred GB of FireWire storage to your Mac Mini, and yo
Re:It's not the stereo, it's the Mini and ITMS (Score:3, Interesting)
Apple can start out not worrying a
Why I say "expensive" (Score:2)
I am talking about expensive in terms of common consumer electronics price point, whcih is around $200 I think for components... thus until until a media suited mini came to around $400 or so it probably will not see large adoption rates.
Then again the iPod was kind of pricy but the benefits it gave were large enough to convince people to buy them, which could be the case here.
I don't consider it so expensive that I could resist buy
Re:You have got to be kidding me. (Score:5, Insightful)
This battlefield is suited for Apple, where they have control of software and hardware. Sony, not being an OS or software maker, is at a huge disadvantage. Brilliant of Steve Jobs to lead the computer industry into this arena.
Re:You have got to be kidding me. (Score:2)
Most Mac TOSLink cables are getting plugged into Sony receivers to play music from Sony lables and movies from Sony-owned studios. If you buy
Re:You have got to be kidding me. (Score:3, Interesting)
True, but Sony music and Sony movies are not physical devices sitting in your living room, which is what the original article describes. Sony's still going to make money from their studios, but in affect, they've been booted out of the living room.
The exception to
Have you compared Market Cap? (Score:2, Interesting)
It's the same with online music stores (Score:2)
What a shame (Score:2)
That would be a real shame. I was hoping to purchase as many products with rootkits, backdoors, and viruses as possible. Here's to hoping that Sony regains marketshare so they can bring more fine rootkits to the market.
Re:What a shame (Score:2)
I wonder if that's the same model I have. Mine's about the same age and only been moved a half-dozen times, but still working great. The Sony TV we purchased around the same time is still working too -though I wish it would die so I had an excuse to replace it.
Re:What a shame (Score:3, Informative)
And on the MMORPG Front... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:And on the MMORPG Front... (Score:2)
Now Krispy Kreme... well, those bastards closed the shop I've been getting donuts at for the last 7 years, so I've been a bit more pissed at them than at Sony.
*About half way down the page
http://www.penny-arcade.com/ [penny-arcade.com]
The problem with Sony is (Score:2)
They can do thing that can eventualy and may be remove some little part of the profit of the media division !
So Sony will be in 5 (or lest) year a Media company only !(...)
Well if they don't change !
That is so true (Score:2)
Sony's experienced here (Score:3, Interesting)
But what exactly is Apple going to do?
What would they do for stereo equipment? iPod docks? It's been done.
Re:Sony's experienced here (Score:2)
RTFBlurd, fer cryin' out loud (Score:2)
Oh, I dunno, they could do... this? [apple.com]
Two reasons why Sony lost to Apple (Score:4, Insightful)
but the social practices they make possible." - Howard Rheingold
The Sony 'iPod killers' are just using new technology to accomplish the same social purpose. The only difference between the Sony products and the Apple ones is that the Sony ones are less sexy. If Sony wants to succeed, they need to make a product that A) serves a new social purpose and B) is more sexy. Let's face it: the iPod is already sexy. But the iPod is sexy as in sexy to look at. That was good enough five years ago, but not today. I want REAL sexy. Not just sexy as in sexy to look at sexy, but sexy as in dripping down your face sexy.
2) "The real 'iPod killer' won't be an mp3 player."
The world doesn't need a new mp3 player. The iPod is already good enough. The real iPod killer won't be an mp3 player. It won't even play mp3s. It will do something entirely different. The problem is the people who run these companies like Sony are a little slow and don't get this, so we get these people investing 100 million dollars to create shit products that any five year old knows won't sell when they could be creating the next patent pending paradigm shifting curve jumping technology for 1/20th of that much.
Re:Two reasons why Sony lost to Apple (Score:2)
(And no, I'm not just a serial entrepreneur, I also do consulting)
Um...no... (Score:4, Interesting)
Apple didn't succeed because new social practices become possible. This is obvious - mp3 players were available before the iPod came along. (And anyway, half the social practices associated with iPods are mythical - like random strangers jacking into each other's iPods.)
When are people going to stop making up ever more fanciful notions about why the iPod is so popular and just look at the device and software itself? Unless you're a geek who likes to waste their day messing about with clunky hard to use software and devices it's pretty obvious why the iPod is a superior product to its competition.
Re:Um...no... (Score:2)
*hint* You can buy a better mp3 player for less money than the iPod.
Re:Um...no... (Score:2)
Re:Um...no... (Score:2)
It's because walking around with a Sony MP3 player won't get you laid.
Why do you think people spend four bucks on a cup of coffee on Starbucks even though only 30% of the people surveyed actually like Starbuck's coffee?
Re:Um...no... (Score:2)
Because the Mom-and-Pop diner next door sells filter coffee coffee that tastes like battery acid, like in most of America before Starbucks arrived.
Because it's fashionable to dis Starbucks (for largely political reasons) and claim that you prefer Peet's even though you can barely detect a difference.
Re:Um...no... (Score:2)
Note to self: locate and reread iPod instruction manual.
Re:Um...no... (Score:3, Funny)
My friend James and I both work in media here in NY. We were invited to a screening for an independent film. James has a Rio something or other (this is about a year ago). Hot blond chick gets in line behind us. She's checking James out. James pulls out his Rio to turn down the volume so he can make his move. She looks at his Rio with distaste.
HBC: what's that? an ipod?
James: no, it's a Rio ____; it's just as good, and it has more features.
HBC: (already checked out)
Re:Um...no... (Score:5, Interesting)
Carrying all your music with you; a soundtrack to your life.
Prior to the iPod you had three choices:
1) Unit based players, like a CD player or a tape cassette with limited music selection
2) Network based players, like a AM/FM radio with limited music selection
3) MP3 players, like the Nomad or Rio with crude design and usability
The iPod, in one package, provide three things the other three existing devices did not have:
1) Wide music selection (your entire music collection)
2) Easy music selection (not only your entire collection, but being to easily browse through it)
3) Portable music selection (smaller than everything out there with a comparable storage density; the Rio was smaller, but only could store 128mb!)
Re:Two reasons why Sony lost to Apple (Score:2)
Well.. you go crceate the next paradigm shifting curve jumping technology since you think it's so bloody easy, meanwhile the rest of us will remain firmly stuck here in the real world.
Re:Two reasons why Sony lost to Apple (Score:2)
Re:Two reasons why Sony lost to Apple (Score:2)
Re:Two reasons why Sony lost to Apple (Score:2)
Apple's doing bukkake? Sounds sticky, not sexy.
Apple won't challenge Sony in at least one AV area (Score:2, Interesting)
For me to consider putting Apple into my AV cabinet they need equipment that fits the form factor that both industry and I have chosen. I can put a cheap PC into a rack mount server chassis and use that
Re:Apple won't challenge Sony in at least one AV a (Score:2)
So how does the Mini not fit that criteria? (Score:2)
Seriously why not use a mini as another kind of component that acts as a media hub for the rest of the computers in your house (iTunes sharing, for example).
One other nice thing about the Mini is that if you enable desktop sharing you can use VNC to connect to and control what the computer is doing, making a laptop (or a
Re:Apple won't challenge Sony in at least one AV a (Score:2)
Re:Apple won't challenge Sony in at least one AV a (Score:2)
I, on the other hand, greatly value your business and will happily sell you a Mac Mini in a 17" wide box for just $1399. Also, Monster Cables are 10% off with any WideBody Mini purchase.
Sony's big problem (Score:5, Insightful)
Sony's biggest problem is the contempt it has shown it's customers.
Re:Sony's big problem (Score:2)
Sony makes very cool gadgets and develops great technology - but they are hindered by the content division adding DRM and other crap that makes it less competitive. Because the content division did so well at the expense of it's electronics division, the suits in charge believe that content should rule. That's why they hired the idiot Howard Stringer as CEO. The guy came from the con
Re:Sony's big problem (Score:2)
Sony's hardwar
The difference between Sony and Apple? (Score:4, Insightful)
/Two more: never forget.
six of one, half a dozen of the other (Score:2)
Both companies thrive on vendor lock-in. so why really differentiate between the two?
Sony was a Cool Company (Score:2)
Re:Sony was a Cool Company (Score:2)
Hate to tell you this, but it might be because you're getting old(er). Don't worry, I won't tell anyone.
But yes, Sony has lost a bit of the "Cool Factor".
"pour" (Score:2)
Yes, well, let's keep your sexual paraphilias out of the conversation, shall we?
It's the nature of DRM (Score:5, Insightful)
Hardly surprising, then, that it has that effect on distributed development. Apple has the advantage of keeping its developers together, which is fine as long as you have a narrow product base.
Not the point (Score:2)
That's not really the point, it's to protect the path of video or other media to the consumer.
A side effect is indeed lack of interoperability.
That is a key distinction to understanding why Apple's DRM has been more successful, because initially they did in fact provide interoperability with CD players and other computers. Then the network effect took hold and competitors had to do more; but there they ran into a wall because DRM only allows so much f
Re:Not the point (Score:2)
Bullshit, that's the perfect excuse to convince media conglomerates to only support drm products.
Itunes? Oh yes, really nice, except than in 5 years, you're not going to be able to play your music in anything else than apple's music players, and if other company starts doing better and more beautiful players than apple you're screwed - you've to buy an apple music player.
Being the most succesful online music store
Sony is losing to themselves. (Score:5, Insightful)
But as for now, when people think of Sony, they think of a company that produces mediocre products and treats them like criminals. And that's not going to help the company move its merchandise.
Re:Sony is losing to themselves. (Score:2)
It couldn't happen to a better company (Score:2)
Re:It couldn't happen to a better company (Score:2)
love/hate relationship (Score:2)
I would have had several sony mp3 players by now if it wasn't for the several restrictions on filetype (ok, they finally took care of that one) and how you put songs on the player. Battery life and style almost have me wanting one anyway.
I wish they would just spin-off some of their hardware to a completely independent line that doesn't have to care about the content that their other half is so worried about us pirating. Then they would be able to put out some easy to
Watching Closely (Score:2)
It appears that Apple is slowly putting the peices in place to have the Mini as a frontend solution for media serving or an "iPod for the living room". Its not all integrated yet, and there are lots more technical and legal problems with video that didn't apply
Re:Watching Closely (Score:2)
But as a major stockholder and CEO of Pixar, he was already on both sides.
I still remember the NYTimes article when then Disney CEO Eisner was sitting in front of a congressional panel crying about how Monsters, Inc. was on the internet and blasting Apple for its irresponsible Rip, Mix, Burn campaign. The Times article had a picture of Eisner re
It's here today! (Score:2)
Check out the connection options and TV tips [apple.com] they offer today. The thing is fully ready to live in harmony with any TV or HDTV you might have.
And if Jobs is sitting over both sides of the DRM debate as you say, then we already know which way he is predisposed to come down on the issue. DRM but not to a crippling extreme.
If the mini as it stands is basic
One way to fix this (Score:2)
Then, select your brightest people and create a division for the sole purpose of developing the next portable consumer entertainment device (not necessarily just a music player. who knows).
Give this division complete autonomy and make bonuses directly reflect market performance of the end product. Emulate a startup within the corporate structure of Sony.
This will only work if the shareholders a
US and JAPAN software strategy (Score:2)
wtf? (Score:5, Insightful)
When I first learned how to code - I had a high school teacher named Mr. Rice - and he always admonished me to keep it simple. He'd write KISS on the board - and then say no offense - to which I'd reply, - none taken. Sony can't seem to keep it simple.
All of which is to say - all Sony has to do is SHOW UP ON TIME - and the living room is theirs. But no - they keep trying to kill every DAVID out there. If the PS3 were coming out RIGHT NOW - the console wars would be a rout - Sony would win. Even with no killer launch titles - Sony would be a hands down winner because of the installed user base and backwards compatibility. They can always add their online service later - in say the PS3.1 or whatever. Blu-Ray spec issues? Add it in PS3.2. They just need to be in the marketplace with a new product.
To win in the living room - you must deliver gaming. Because apple does not - they're not yet a living room solution. Microsoft delivers gaming in a very nice package - but they don't know how to design for the living room - meaning they design boxes that age poorly and soon seem and look anachronistic (the xbox one is so damn ugly). But the X-Box gaming experience is superior - and x-box live is a gaming solution without competition. They just can't get games out there fast enough.
The first one stop gaming/DVR/audio/movie device with already recognizable brand awareness wins the living room hands down.
Re:wtf? (Score:2)
However, in the instance you mentioned, what would PS2 have lost if they'd not launched waiting for successful HD integration?
My point specifically is that Sony stands to lose the living room if they delay launch significantly. If they lose the living room, it won't matter how perfectly they implement blu-ray and online. XBox 360 could have delayed launch until Halo 3 was ready to ship but that might have killed first mover advantage (such as it is in console wars).
Re:wtf? (Score:2)
Sony was losing it before the iPod .... (Score:2)
Those screwy mini-disc players they had a bunch of years for example. Very few people bought them. Only Sony supported them. They weren't compatible with anything else. I think they even used a proprietary format as I recall.
So now they come late-to-market with a me-too product that nobody could figure out what it does, and someone is shocked it's not selling that well??
Add in the root-kit fiasco, a f
Re:Sony was losing it before the iPod .... (Score:2)
Congratulations, 3 incorrect statements in 5 sentences.
Lots of people bought MiniDisc--in Japan. Lots of vendors supported MiniDisc, including Sharp, JVC, Denon, Kenwood, Marantz, Pioneer, Teac, and Technics. They were compatible with other audio systems via digital optical audio ou
Apple is becoming too much like Sony (Score:3, Interesting)
Why? because it will hurt their iTunes video download business? Sound like any major conglomerate you know?
I believe Apple will overcome this by developing a better movie/video, distribution/download, system/service. The service will hopefully be good enough to silence most of it's critics.
Apple would need to convince us that subscribing to their service is a better value proposition than doing all the "heavy lifting" of recording our own content.
As Apple continues to grow and venture into new territories there will be more "conflicts of interest" in the future.
Sony = n00b (Score:2)
Meanwhile, Apple and Microsoft have invested most of their resources into... guess what? SOFTWARE! Microsoft has Media Player, Internet Explorer (we learn by screwing up, so that counts
And
Sony is NOT a SOFTWARE company. (Score:2)
Where does that leave Sony in developing... an application like iTunes ?
I'll tell you where. It leaves Sony flapping in the wind, with a bunch of BMG-style media company guys yanking the chain of the guy in charge of the Walkman product development, who yanks the c
iConsole (Score:2)
All communication will be wireless, with connectivity to the iMac monitor supported preferred, with the option to have the game display as t
Sony's Problems (Score:2)
STOP WITH THE STUPID DRM and just use mp3/ogg. Done.
I actually bought one of those minidisc players... It would have been so awesome if was a hdd that took mp3s and played them. Instead, it came with some incredibly worthless software that was impossible to use (and buggy) that allowed you to make 3 copies of your songs in a format that no sane person would use.
So that's it. I win. Sony could easily make a comeback and take d
The Walkman _was_ Sonys iPod. (Score:2)
So how did the Walkman get the mindshare? Just the way Apples iPod did. By wrapping it in flashy colors and design (Walkman 2 anyone?) and make it a fashion statement rather than a boring intimidating tech device.
What Sony should have done. (Score:4, Interesting)
Five years ago, Sony's music labels should have started releasing all albums as mp3 on Memory Sticks. They should have released a Walkman with a Memory Stick Slot. Sony would have owned the music hardware scene, and limited-edition Memory Sticks with unique content would have established the Memory stick as the standard flash format.
But now Sony's hardware is languishing, and their Sony label artists are all sporting iPods. As the only label/hardware manufacturer, they had an undeniable advantage, and they blew it. Oh well.Yah, if there is one thing more annyoung then (Score:2)
If you think Sony is having troubles take a look at Philips. They been struggling for the last 2 decades and they are still around.
Big companies don't die easily and they don't get much bigger then Sony. Even now.
Oh sure, Sony can really get into trouble but it is to big to just collapse unless a scandal happens like Enron. For one thing there is employment. Sony has factories everywhere and goverments
Why (Score:4, Insightful)
Why are these "wars" always lost before anyone even knows about them?
American solutions to Japanese problems don't work (Score:3, Insightful)
The problem seems to be their attempts to apply American specialization to consumer electronics. Now the programmers are supposed to just program, the EE's just design hardware, interface design is strictly management, and needs are filled by hiring and firing instead of reusing people.
Consumer electronics aren't the kinds of things you can apply American specialization to. Those who think they can are being eaten up by the LG's and Samsungs. Apple has Slashdot on its side, and that helps a lot.
Re:Don't forget Microsoft (Score:2, Funny)
I own the previous X-Box, and I'm still waiting for the PS3 before I make up my mind about which next-gen console I want to buy. I'm sure I'm not the only one, especially when actually getting a 360 is about as challenging as getting a really good margarita in Kuwait.
Re:Don't forget Microsoft (Score:2)
So you've been down to that place on Pyramid Street too?!
They make some really good margaritas and daquiris. None of that artifical frozen crap. Only fresh fruit.
There's another place a couple blocks down, but I wouldn't rate anything they make as "really good".
Oh... wait, I bet you don't even live in Kuwait. Just because you don't know where to get a really good margarita doesn't mean that nobody else
Re:Don't forget Microsoft (Score:3, Funny)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibition#Middle_E
Re:Apple (Score:2)
Re:Apple (Score:2)
Re:The Game is just starting... (Score:2)
Re:My lounge room is mine - not Apple's, MS or Son (Score:2)