Maine School & Linux 432
Feztaa writes "This story talks about a private school in Maine that has introduced linux into their computer labs, with smashing success. Apparently, they spent less than half of the money that other schools spent on new computer labs, and got better hardware to boot."
Computer lab or vocational education? (Score:5, Interesting)
Using Linux in the computer lab is closer IMHO to a real computer science lab like at the university level, where one learns how computers work.
It all depends on your intent. If the intent is to teach business apps, Windows is the right choice because that's what businesses use. But Linux offers a richer environment for understanding computer principles.
Yup (Score:5, Interesting)
Windows does its damndest to prevent users from accidently encountering any confusing internals. Good, I suppose, for someone who doesn't care, but lousy if you are trying to teach those internals.
Re:Yup (Score:2)
Or reaching those internals.
Re:Yup - except (Score:5, Funny)
Except for when windows gives the blue screen of death. That's enough to scare the average user away.
Re:Yup (Score:4, Funny)
Are you sure you want to view the contents of c:\winnt? Changing the files in here could cause your computer to stop working.
Show me the files, dammit!
Re:Computer lab or vocational education? (Score:4, Insightful)
Applicationspecific learning does not yield any exceptionally good students. Also, the software range is much larger for linux, and in addition it has more fun software which they can try out.
If you wanna try out random software in windows, you're subjected to a lot of crappy software. Eg. are there any good free astronomy programs for windows? And are they just as freely available?
Re:Computer lab or vocational education? (Score:3, Insightful)
Therefore, a lot of our users are still using Office 97. We are in the midst of planning an upgrade to Office XP, but that will take at least a year and half to achieve.
*Plus* most users don't know a lick about Linux, and quite frankly, don't have the inclination to go through the 'hassle' of learning how it works and how to install the various packages required for a given application.
Reconcile these two statements, if you don't mind. :) In a business, do the individual users who don't know jack about computers handle such mission-critical tasks as upgrading software on their machines?
Furthermore, to upgrade the software on a GNU/Linux network, you only need to upgrade the software on the server. Mount /usr on all the clients and it's magically done. Does that take a year and a half to perform? Not when you do it during your initial setup, it doesn't. Then upgrades are just a matter of installing the new software on the server. There's some fine points, still, such as upgrading the kernel. But since you can spend a small amount of money putting small hard drives in a machine (or no hard drive at all!) and having it boot from the network, you can easily make it possible to upgrade kernels as simply as changing a floppy.
Bring on the flame, but Linux still isn't ready for prime-user use. It just isn't and it's gonna take a very long time before it gets to the point that companies are going to be ready to adopt it.
My 4-year-old doesn't have any trouble at all using KDE, and you mean to tell me that a grown adult can't use it? My little girl can barely read, but she has an easier time understanding single-clicking over double-clicking to open an application. (read: game)
The #1 reason GNU/Linux isn't ready for prime-time use is because people don't believe it is. It has nothing to do with technical capabilities or anything else of the sort. It's all about believing in it, or not, as the case may be. In a business setting, it's not only irresponsible, but blatantly stupid to depend on everyone in the company to be able to install software. Let the administrators do it, and you'll find GNU/Linux is not only ready for prime-time use, but indeed it is the best solution available.
Re:Computer lab or vocational education? (Score:3, Interesting)
Yup. Kids (and young adults) pick up new things much more quickly, like languages or interfaces. A well-designed interface or program should be easy for the average adult to learn - not just geeks and kids. Kids also have less of a problem asking adults for help. Adults don't like to feel stupid, and trying to use Linux makes most people feel stupid.
Ok, you shot down my point about the 4-year-old, so I'll mention the wife that only knows (knew) how to use IE, Word, and a smattering of other windows apps. Now she prefers GNU/LInux, and one reason she prefers it has to do with my next point...
Windows operates under the assumption that the user *is* an idiot, and it treats them accordingly. Between all the stupid "Ok" dialogs and "Are you sure?" and Clippy, Windows does an excellent job of getting across the point that "you aren't smart enough to use a computer, so I have to hold your hand like a little kid crossing the street." So the users are told constantly by the interface that they're too stupid to use this OS, and sooner or later they even believe it. Contrast to GNU/Linux, which actually does treat you with a bit of respect (most of the time, but it certainly has its moments), when people use it they feel like they know what they're doing. This can be a bad thing, I know. The point is that rather than beat up on the user, GNU/Linux builds up the user, and they get more and more willing to try different things.
It seems strange to me to talk about how a computer treats its user, but that is the guts of the matter, isn't it? Microsoft has demonstrated a superiority complex along with a driving need to rule the world, whereas Free Software developers have demonstrated a willingness to help people and make peoples' lives better both en masse and individually. The respective interfaces reflect these basic drives by the respective developers. What does an average person prefer from a friend? Someone who treats them with respect, a bit of deference, and allows them the freedom to do as they wish? Or would they rather have Bill Gates as a friend? :)
Add to this the knowledge that adults tend to be more set in their ways, and are less likely to try (or stick with) new things, in favor of what's old and comfortable... and it seems clear that Linux has to do several things before it can be adopted by the masses. One of those things is, most likely, a better (perceived) compatibility with Windows.
I can agree that there's more that GNU/Linux can do to help the masses to look upon it favorably, but IMHO, it's ready for the masses. At least, Mandrake LInux 9.0 is, I'm sure I don't want the masses to have their first experience with Gentoo. I also agree that people in general prefer not to change from their old, nasty habits. I still smoke cigarettes, for example. I'm certainly not on a high horse about not resisting change. OTOH, I have benefitted personally by adopting technology (starting with CDs, moving on to mp3s and so forth) that really benefits me in a direct, personal fashion. My own experience is that GNU/Linux benefits me in a direct, personal fashion, and it adds pleasure to my life. Windows removed pleasure from my life and replaced it with more negative emotions best left unmentioned. My own anecdotal story is hardly evidence to support a revolution, though. :)
When it comes down to it, KDE (not sure about Gnome) is easy for the average adult to learn. IN fact, in many ways it acts the way people expect it to act, ways in which windows doesn't (single-clicking vs double-clicking). The catch is, this isn't exactly true since people have learned the windows ass-backwards way already. When it comes to troubleshooting driver problems and so forth, Windows errs on the part of thinking the user is too stupid, whereas GNU/Linux errs on the part of expecting the user to know more than they do. In both cases, I find it difficult to fix driver problems. It's the same, I've found, in most of the administration tasks on each OS. But I've also found that after you get past the steep learning curve of GNU/Linux, you can fix things faster and more efficiently than you can ever achieve with Windows.
When it comes to administering a machine, whether its a home machine or a work machine, or the one you use at school, it amounts to having two choices. You can try to fix it yourself, or you can get someone who knows what they're doing to fix it. (The third choice is irrelevant, because it means offloading the problem onto someone else who will then be faced with the same two choices) Your average idiot will get someone who knows what they're doing to fix it, and it makes no difference if it's their home machine or their work machine or whatever. Your average techie (or wanna-be techie) will try to fix it themselves, and if they fail they'll look for help. In either case, someone who knows what they're doing gets involved eventually anyway. I've *never* seen your average idiot (to whom Windows is targetted) fix their broken computer by themselves. That doesn't mean it hasn't happened, but I've never seen it. :)
Re:Computer lab or vocational education? (Score:5, Insightful)
I think a lot of businesses get hung up on this, too. "We can't use Linux, we'd have to re-train all our people to use new applications." How long do they really thing it would take someone that used to use IE, to use Mozilla? The "back" button works the same way. The "Bold" button in OpenOffice works the same way as in Word. Evolution has folders for mail just like outlook.
There's just not much of a learning curve at all for standard office apps. Once you learn to use one spreadsheet, it just ain't that hard to pick up another one. 95% of the concepts are the same.
Re:Computer lab or vocational education? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's even simpler than that, especially in reference to the fact that the software that "everyone uses" changes through time. Because it changes to what? Mostly to the software that they were using at school and uni. So if you let kids play with linux instead of windows at school, and extend that through uni by giving them good and preferential access to linux computers, when they come out of school/uni and their employers realise that all these kids can use linux software, which is cheaper, and so don't need retraining, they'll switch to linux without a second thought.
Daniel
Circular Argument (Score:2, Insightful)
Many people seem stuck in this reasoning:
Why should everyone learn Windows? Because everyone uses Windows.
Why should everyone use Windows? Because everyone is learning Windows.
I'm sure there's more to it than that, but it is an easy mistake. (And I posted this from a Redhat 8.0 box.)
Re:Computer lab or vocational education? (Score:5, Insightful)
Not only that but when the current students get out into the workforce in 5 or so years time there is _no_ guarantee that Windows or Word will be the 'required' product to know.
In 1981 the hot products were CP/M, WordStar and Supercalc. In 1986 this was dead and MS-DOS, WordPerfect and Loyus 123 were used by business. Another 5 years and the switch was to Windows 3.1 and early Word and Excell (or Multiplan).
MS has only held on so long since then through strangling the competition, but in 5 years time MS Office may be obsolete, possibly just because of the punitive licence fees, or possibly just because a better product can survive long enough to be noticed.
It may not be Star Office or OpenOffice.org either, but why throw money at MS when these will do the task.
Teaching business apps. (Score:5, Insightful)
If you're teaching a student how to use a spreadsheet, it really doesn't make a difference whether they learn gnumeric or excel. The _principles_ are what you want to teach, not the specific application.
The same thing with word processors. It should take more than 15 minutes for the average highschooler to adjust from Word to WordPerfect to Abiword. It's not like they're learning how to automatically generate table of contents or advanced table formatting; they're kids who are learning computers so they can write term papers...
Especially since school computers don't get updated as frequently, it makes sense to use free software. What's the difference:
I assert that both of them will equally prepare the average kid for the 'real' business world (Word 2002 on Windows XP).
Re:Computer lab or vocational education? (Score:2)
My experience is that you are wrong, not on the idea, but the reality.
When I went to high school they were proud of there up to date computer lab running what buisness was running. Students were mostly taught WordPerfect5.1 for dos, on a Novell network (generally 8086 computers, which were plenty fast for that job). By the time I got out of college a 486 was slow, Nobody ran dos anymore. Most people had novell, but were making plans to move to NT (now implimented for the majority). Companies did not use products like Exchange, which now run the company, often getting more use than the word processor.
In short technology is still changing far too fast to worry about teaching exactly the products used in school. Teach the concepts and let the kids learn the specific implimentation when they get there. Otherwise they will find themselves an expert in office2003 in a world where everyone uses office2006 (I'm just guessing on versions of course).
Re:Computer lab or vocational education? (Score:3, Interesting)
No, no, NO! That's exactly what any good middle or high school (or liberal arts college for that matter) should NOT do. That is the single biggest reason Microsoft has a monopoly. Training on specific apps makes for inflexible users. They should have a class which exposes people to as many platforms as they possibly can, and make people learn basic operations on all of them. Then teach basic word processing and spreadsheets, also making them do basic stuff on all of them. Teach the concepts, then make people learn the different implimentations. That way, when they see another one at work, they will adapt quickly. After a certain point a person learns how the logic of most computer interfaces works, and can figure out new variations fairly quickly. THAT is what schools should be teaching. Businesses can do specific training on applications/macros/whatever that the specific job uses, and people will be fast and flexible at it once they know how to learn new computer apps.
Sorry about the rant, but that's a pet annoyance of mine.
Cloning (Score:5, Interesting)
Surely this isn't correct... is it?
Not even MS would do this - it makes no sense.
Re:Cloning (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Cloning (Score:5, Insightful)
In fact (as someone else mentioned), Microsoft created a utility called sysprep that preps Windows 2000 machines for being cloned (see here [microsoft.com] - "The Windows 2000 System Preparation Tool (Sysprep) Version 1.1 enables administrators to prepare Windows 2000 System Images as part of an automated deployment.") It resets stuff like SIDs (which are used by Windows NT -- each machine should have a unique one on the network) so that after cloning, the boxes will eventually be unique as well.
Re:Cloning (Score:2)
FUD and MISINFORMATION ABOUND!! see link (Score:5, Informative)
From 2000 to XP you can prepare a hard drive. Use a tool called SYSPREP which prepares a drive for cloning.
Once you clone the drive to x number of systems(as covered by your site licenses). The initial boot of the system conigures each one with a seperate SID. It also automates user responses. You can accept the EULA automatically.
MS reccomends this for roll outs and even teaches you how to do it on their site.
I have used this many times. Nothing against the EULA.
See below link.
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/treeview/defau
I love Linux. And thing MS is evil in a lotta ways. But above all hate misinformation.
Puto.
Re:FUD and MISINFORMATION ABOUND!! see link (Score:4, Insightful)
I have used Sysprep and even RIS on W2K. It is NOT as easy or fast as doing straight "ghosting" of images. Problems can and do occur.
Despite what any pro-MS people want to believe, licensing is just one more step that isn't necessary in what should be an otherwise simple process.
IMHO, that is exactly why free software will succeed faster in most cases than proprietary. If you have an image with nothing but free software, you don't have to even stop to think about whether you have enough licenses to intall.
I think RedHat is barking up the right tree by charging for access to their RH Network. Then if companies want to make it easier to update software, they pay per machine. If they don't really care about some workstation set up in a dark room for nothing but scanning and it isn't even hooked to the internet, do they really need to pay for support/updates?
Re:Cloning (Score:2)
However, Microsoft's EULA prevents a user from doing this, even if they have 20 copies of Windows.
Surely this isn't correct... is it?
I'm afraid it is, but companies/schools/everyone ignores this all the time with products like Norton Ghost [symantec.com] or PQDI [powerquest.com].
With NT4 and 2K Ghost Walker (or some other tool) was also required to make sure your cloned machines had different sids (I'm not sure if that is still true with XP).
At every company I've ever worked all desktop windows boxes are made from one of these cloning programs, so it can't be that illegal, right :)
Re:Cloning (Score:3, Informative)
You are correct. Legally, you must use the MS Sysprep utility to prepare a CD image and answer file for cloning purposes like this. IMHO, It is a little disappointing that a number of people responded to this article and didn't know that. Looks like some people like to bash MS without actually learning anything about MS....
Oh well, just another reminder that you need to take whatever you read on /. with a grain of salt (and double-check the answer)
For those of you who are wondering, legally, MS has the right to request a Corporation to remove all their Ghost-installed systems and re-install using the Sysprep utility. Bet you didn't know that, now did ya?
Re:Cloning (Score:2)
So your clients have site licenses. But every new machine arrives with a Windows license affixed?
1. You can get PC's without windows on them. Even from the big guys.
2. ANY big company will sell you a PC without a windows license if you provide them with a verifiable fax of your current MS license status.
I have ordered from 20 to 500 machines a throw from Dell. Provided them with my site license, and they came empty.
MS also reccomends using Ghost.
PUTO
And here comes Slashdot... (Score:4, Funny)
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
It's about time. (Score:5, Insightful)
Instead of going with decent free software, it seems like the majority of public schools are so Windows-dependent that they'd rather keep Windows 95 until the end of time than switch. And that's just dumb. Sure, if the school system has enough to keep upgrading, it might be a little easier... but they never do.
The primary reason usually lies somewhere along the lines of 'but we have this database and our database guy doesn't know how to do anything but Access!' Sigh.
Windows has its merits. Continuing to use it when the only merits left are 'we're lazy and our tech people are ignorant'... that's not good.
Re:It's about time. (Score:2)
Re:It's about time. (Score:2)
Re:It's about time. (Score:2, Informative)
Whenever we go in there for research (or anything on the internet), I remind myself to bring my KNOPPIX cd tomorrow.
KNOPPIX is wonderful, ain't it?
Re:It's about time. (Score:3, Informative)
the linux labs at my university are running a two-year-old Red hat distro, and I have a colleague who can't use them because there is absolutely no obvious way to change the refresh rate the something sensible like there is on Windows.
That's because you have to edit a text file, and the file you have to edit requires su priviledges. It's in the x.conf file, I believe. Or rather, it's in the x config file, whatever it's called. Then you have to restart the x server.
Not exactly intuitive, I know. I find that editing text files is usually faster, though, than going through all the windows hoops.
Re:It's about time. (Score:3, Interesting)
The primary reason usually lies somewhere along the lines of 'but we have this database and our database guy doesn't know how to do anything but Access!' Sigh.
UNQUOTE
This I suspect is a chicken or the egg situation. It's all about user-base, which is why this story made slashdot, for example. The kids learning on linux today might grow up tomorrow to be 'the database guy who knows postgres'.
Also, there may be a more subtle reason why institutions keep older windows licenses active; annual depreciation is written off as expenses. I suppose if they canned the licenses, they'd a. lose this incentive b. have to write off what remained of the value of the licenses.
If indeed the amortization period of f.ex. win9[58] exceeds [85] years...
Necessity is the mother of invention (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:It's about time. (Score:3, Informative)
Plus, retraining the teachers will be hard. I think most teachers have this natural inability to learn computers
Actually, most teachers have this natural inability to learn. End of sentence.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. And they can't teach either.
Forgive the rant, but I'm disgusted with the general state of affairs in the education system.
Maine & Linux (Score:3, Interesting)
Without proper training, this is bound to fail. I know all of the public schools in the state of Maine have iBooks for their 7th and 8th graders. It's been given quite a bit of praise under that program. While I'd LOVE to see Linux make it here, I don't think that it's ready yet.
My $0.02
Re:Maine & Linux (Score:5, Insightful)
I guess I don't understand why this is a sticking point for Linux not being ready, nor why this is different from the Windows experience.
Worst case scenario would be pulling the plug and restarting the machine (journaling file systems would help with this atrocity?).
Am I missing something?
(there are other sticking points, like maybe some websites that won't work w/o IE
Re:Maine & Linux (Score:2)
Re:Maine & Linux (Score:2)
Probably the same thing she does when she sees the BSOD.
Wait a minute... that must mean that Windows isn't ready yet either.
Re:Maine & Linux - from a Mainiac Tuxer (Score:5, Interesting)
That said, I taught a Linux class to several people a couple of months ago. Maine recently began a program to distribute laptops to all 7th graders. Since most schools had Apple systems, they were at a loss on how to integrate them.
Enter Linux. In two days, I taught a group of Apple and Windows skilled folks Linux basics, stressing command line skills and how to use Google for support. I was blown away by how quickly they came up to speed. Since they already had basic computer skills, all they needed to do was learn a slightly different way to apply them. All but one were able to build Linux boxes with SAMBA and DHCP services that both the Apple and MS boxes could tap into. The one that couldn't refused to adapt and constantly whined about using the command line. (I know, almost all of this can be done with a GUI. But I wanted them to learn more than how to point, click, select the defaults.)
So, I say hogwash to this failing. Those that don't want to learn, won't, you can't change that. Those that are able to take knowledge and apply it to new ideas will flourish.
People that can learn and adapt will be the people most sought after in our society because they will move it forward.
More interesting story than I had expected (Score:4, Interesting)
That was a pretty bold move considering his previous experience was very light on Linux. I found the bit about the common questions he was asked particularly interesting. I'm used to the assumptions about Windows and Linux that exist in an IT environment, but hadn't considered that education IT had it's own set of Linux/Windows shibboleths... ;-)
Hm... speaking of shibboleths, I wonder how many posts it will take before someone seriously handwrings about it being a "Christian" academy adopting Linux... ;-)
Christians adopting Linux (Score:5, Funny)
Imagine how the school's board would have reacted if the instructor had chosen FreeBSD [freebsd.org] instead.
Great market for Linux (Score:3, Insightful)
Linux also makes a lot of sense from a durability standpoint in primary/secondary education lab situations. The machines can be administered remotely, and can easily be kept in a consitent state. Administration becomes a breeze, keeping the Linux machines up and running can be a pretty much automated process. Try and do that with a Windows lab!
The only problem I see with using Linux in these situations is finding trained personell to staff the labs. Good Linux people are still hard to find, especially with the lower-than-typical pay scale in primary/secondary education. I suppose this will change little by little as more users adopt Linux both in education and enterprise applications.
Re:Great market for Linux (Score:3, Informative)
I don't really get this. It's a school, right? Why can the teachers not do what this guy did and teach themselves? I'd bet 99% of all Linux users ever had to learn themselves as opposed to going on a training course. Obviously they may have been helped by others, but I learnt it all myself and via IRC. Maybe for businesses where time is short, but schools are in no hurry.
I get the feeling the "we need training" mentality is a bad one to have, if IT teachers can't learn new things themselves (or are scared to), why are they teaching IT?
Kids and computers (Score:5, Interesting)
Currently, there are old farts that work at our place that take about 20 minutes to position the mouse cursor over the appropriate widget, and another 4 minutes to pluck up the courage to actually click on it.
Last weekend I watched my 4 year old nephew as he fired up a PC, quickly and confidently navigated the START menu to his games folder, loaded a football game, and equally quickly and confidently maximimsed the window etc. What made it more interesting was that I then showed him Microsoft Paint. This was the first time he'd seen the program - but he immediately went for the Maximise button to make the application fill the screen.
This means that he'd learnt the concept of the Maximise button - i.e. his understanding was deeper than simply pressing it as part of the start-up procedure of playing his football game.
I guess I may just be underestimating the abilities of 4 year olds, but I tell you, when this generation leave school and get jobs tech support will be a thing of the past...
Re:Kids and computers (Score:2)
Re:Kids and computers (Score:2)
When a professor calls with a computer problem, it's generally because the printer isn't turned on. Maybe coke got spilled in a keyboard.
When a student calls with a computer problem, it's because he's gotten his computer infected with a virus or deleted KERN32.DLL while cleaning out his hard drive ("I never used it, so I assumed I didn't need it!").
Re:Kids and computers (Score:2)
In my opinion, I don't see tech support jobs being a thing of the past. Certainly - the overcharging of certain companies to solve problems might slowly fizzle away as home users would be knowledgeble with general maintanence problems, but in the office scene, there are so many variables like Exchange servers, Intranet servers, and a whole host of different systems integrated - this is where tech support of the future will still be needed.
Tim
Re:Kids and computers (Score:2, Interesting)
Really? You say that because a four year old is displaying pattern recognition and functionality association? That strikes me as being extemely similar to seeing a four year old accurately insert shaped blocks into appropriately shaped holes on the first try and saying, "Welp, aint gonna need any carpenters when this generation grows up."
Seriously, IT is about providing computer maintenance services for an enterpise that can't afford to have its staff sidetracked fixing their own computer problems. When you hire an individual to maintain your computer systems, what you are really buying is more productivity time for your employees.
This linux in schools idea has a definite chance and the doubters who suggest that linux is ready for 'the real world,' as neat as it is, forget that these kids when they're done with their computer classes will not fear a command line, and will indeed have abstract computer knowledge that passes between OSs.
Of course we'll see if Microsoft raises some sort of challenge to this as they hate losing school customers.
OK, OK, (Score:2)
Re:Kids and computers (Score:3, Informative)
Trust me, as a member of the age group, many of us just run Kazaa (not Lite), ICQ, AIM, YIM and MSN (not trillian, just all 4 at once) with only 64MB of RAM.
Re:Kids and computers (Score:2)
Re:Kids and computers (Score:2)
50FPS on a 66$ vid card? What card is it?
Re:Kids and computers (Score:5, Insightful)
I guess I may just be underestimating the abilities of 4 year olds, but I tell you, when this generation leave school and get jobs tech support will be a thing of the past...
There will be a point where you won't be able to / won't want to keep up with all the new stuff, and just stick to the old stuff that you know. Then, that 4 year old who has grown up to be a 24 year old, has to give you tech support for whatever cyberspace/brainlink/Windows2023 we use then, and it'll be just as boring to him as it is to you now...
Re:Kids and computers (Score:2)
Son, we live in a world that has passwords! When a user forgets his password to email because, it is different from his password in the accounting application. Who is going to reset his password?
You!??
Face it son, you want tech support on that wall! You need tech support on that wall.
But seriously, Tech support may morph into something more than basic user hand-holding. Just keep in mind a user with a little knowledge who thinks he is an expert, is far more dangerous than a user who is terrified of the computer. The ones who "think" they are computer experts are the ones who really keep tech support in business, since they are capable of inflicting the most damage.
Re:Kids and computers (Score:2)
If companies like IBM have their way with autonomic computing and self-healing systems (http://www-1.ibm.com/servers/autonomic/)then you may find tech support to be a once-in-blue-moon kinda thing.
Don't get me wrong though. I read the Autonomic Computing white paper a while ago and it sounds like a solid idea. I just get a little skeptical when I hear silver bullet statements like that. I don't work in tech support nor do I even doing any sort of system administration (besides my own dev environment) so I don't have a job security bias. But getting autonomic computing to the point where it works will take time (years, decades?) and in the meantime businesses don't need all their employees taking time to complete understand how to maintain their computers. Even after we have solid advancements in autonomic computing we still have plenty of other problems, namely figuring out ways to make computers useful (and not just a pain in the ass) from a business and functional point of fiew.
The Problem with Autonomic Computing (Score:2)
I know that IBM is talking more about hardware failures, but your point seems to be that tech support could be rare because the authors of the software would anticipate every possible use.
My solution for everything: (Score:3, Informative)
Hey presto, everyone is happy.
They save loads of money on harddisks, client OS's, but yet they keep their Windows users happy.
Obviously, it'd be even better if they booted and ran X -query big.chunky.server, but you've got to walk before you can run.
Re:My solution for everything: (Score:2)
Still, you save on the 10, 100, or 1000 client licences you'd need.
Personally, I think that any "standard" office worker can be fine with Linux, and Open Office. Have you tried it? I can't find anything that it can't do. (Here is where I get 20 posts telling me...)
Software Liscensing (Score:2)
Re:Software Liscensing (Score:2)
We have a lot of computers.
There's six apple/macintosh labs at my school. Now, this is a high school, with about 1500 students. Each lab houses about 25 computers. Now, the annoying thing is that two of the labs have brand new Emacs (you know, the bright white ones with the CRTs instead of the LCDs), running.... os9. Because it's what the techs know.
The PC Labs are better. They're running win2k or mandrake 9 (about 20% of the machines in each lab are running it, to the students choice), but they're done by a different admin.
Another thought... (Score:2)
The site is already half-/.ed (Score:3, Informative)
Moving the school computer lab to Linux was not an easy decision to make--but it was a beneficial one.
As the bell rings to begin class at Greater Houlton Christian Academy, enthusiastic students sit down at their shiny, new computer workstations. In one corner, the red cabinet housing the server hums quietly as two stuffed penguins look on fondly from their perch. Other penguins keep watch from different locations as the students enter their user names and passwords to access their accounts. Ask a student who ``Tux'' is, and he or she will point to the large penguin painted on the front wall of the computer lab and say, ``He's the Linux penguin!'' About this time KDE has loaded, and young boys and girls are opening the application they need for class as easily as kicking a ball.
Now for a little history. Greater Houlton Christian Academy (GHCA) is a private school and nonprofit organization in Maine. As such, it does not have the same access to funding as the public school system. As the computer science teacher and system administrator, this means I have to be creative about providing our students with computer technology while working with a tight budget. In the past I relied on area businesses and generous individuals to donate their used computers. While these donations were a great blessing to us, they were a temporary solution at best.
Last year it became quite evident that we would need to replace our old, secondhand computers running Windows 95. The decision to move from donated computers to new computers was based on many factors, though our primary goal was to make sure our students had the best technology available for the enhancement of their educational experience. Therefore, this would be a software upgrade as well as a hardware upgrade. In fact, choosing the software was by far the bigger challenge.
Interestingly enough, it was during this time that many schools in the western US were being audited by Microsoft concerning the school's use of Windows and Office software. I began to realize my ignorance concerning exactly how strict and inflexible the Microsoft EULA is. It was also during this time that Microsoft's new licensing initiative, called Software Assurance, was causing quite a stir in the tech headlines. As my research opened my eyes to the various limitations to proprietary software, I began to think that the answer for us might be found in open-source software.
The decision to switch to an open-source platform for our new computer lab was not an easy one. My experience was with DOS and various versions of Windows and not with UNIX-compatible operating systems. I had experimented with Linux a few years earlier but found it somewhat difficult and incomplete. Because some time had passed, I decided to give Linux another try. Going with Mandrake's 8.0 distribution, I installed Linux at home to see if it could replace Windows in a desktop environment. To my amazement, I found Linux to be much more capable this time around. I was one step closer to making my decision to switch our computer lab to the Linux OS.
Other factors went into the final decision to go with open-source software, not the least of which was cost. By purchasing bare-bones computer ``kits'', we were able to save considerable money on the hardware. Part of the savings in purchasing a bare-bones system is that the computer does not come with an operating system. We knew by then we would have to spend more money on software than we did on hardware if we went with Microsoft. Not only would I need to consider the initial purchase of the operating system and application software, but I would also need to factor in the costs of upgrading our software every couple of years. Needless to say, going with an open-source platform would save us considerable money now and in the future.
Another key issue was flexibility. As many of you know, it takes time to install an operating system, customize it for the particular hardware it runs on and install the desired applications. Having purchased 20 new, identical computers, it made sense to completely configure one machine and then clone the hard drive to the other 19 computers. However, Microsoft's EULA prevents a user from doing this, even if they have 20 copies of Windows. Not only would Linux save me considerable time by allowing me to clone my configured PC, it also gave me great flexibility in the degree to which I could customize the OS for the hardware. By recompiling the kernel to take advantage of our specific hardware, I could fine-tune the OS to run at peak performance. Linux would even save us money in the cloning process, thanks to the dd command.
A few aspects, however, made the decision to switch to Linux a difficult one. The smaller software base to choose from and the lack of mature drivers for our hardware were among the lesser obstacles. The major obstacle was my own lack of experience with the Linux OS. In fact, most of the money and time spent in the software upgrade of our computer lab was for a shelf full of books I had to purchase and read to really feel confident using and teaching Linux. It isn't always easy to teach an old dog new tricks, but I found the experience one of the most challenging and rewarding experiences of my IT career.
Today our private school of over 170 students has one of the finest computer labs in Maine. We have 20 computers with Athlon 1600+ XP processors, 128MB of RAM, 20GB hard drives and all the accessories--3-D graphics, sound, 17" monitors and 100Mbps Ethernet networking. Our computers run Mandrake Linux 8.2 with KDE 3.0.2. What is most amazing is we upgraded our computer lab for under half the cost of what many neighboring schools paid for inferior equipment. Most of this savings was the result of switching to Linux.
Our servers also run Linux. Using NFS, students can access their accounts from any computer in the lab. Student- and staff-owned files are backed up on a daily basis, so gone are the days of ``the computer lost my homework.'' Our proxy server runs Squid to help speed our wireless internet connection to 20 workstations, and we use proxy software along with iptables to provide firewall protection. A nice program called Dansguardian provides filtering to protect our children from pornography and other inappropriate content.
Many of you may be asking at this point, ``How do you use Linux in teaching your students?'' GHCA is a K-12 school, and so we strive to offer some level of computer training for each grade. Kindergarten students, for example, can use such programs as Potato Guy to practice hand-eye coordination and familiarize themselves with how to use a mouse to manipulate objects on the computer screen. Elementary and secondary teachers integrate the computer lab into their curriculum by using the computer for research, multimedia enhancements or even something simple as coloring digital pictures.
Starting with grade seven, education in computer science takes a more formal approach. Seventh graders are taught keyboarding skills using programs such as KTouch and TuxTyping. Grade-eight students are taught the basics of programming with the kate editor and yabasic interpreter. It is during this class that students gain a better understanding of how computers process instructions.
Computer Fundamentals is a one-credit course that introduces the ninth-grade student to ``how a computer works'' and ``how to work a computer''. During the second semester, students learn about the purpose and use of the operating system and various applications, such as word processors, spreadsheets and web browsers. Because our computers run Linux, it is the Linux OS and open-source software that students learn in this class. Being sensitive to the fact that Microsoft currently dominates the PC market in corporate America, I do spend time discussing the similarities and differences between Linux and Windows.
Tenth- through twelfth-grade students can chose from a variety of computer electives, including how to upgrade and repair computers, web site design, advanced programming and even an upcoming course in robotics. In making the switch to Linux, I easily found all the tools needed to teach these courses using open-source software. In many cases, the open-source software we now use is superior to the proprietary software originally donated to us.
This is our first year with our new computer lab, and I am very pleased with how it is progressing. One of the most pleasing experiences I am having as a system administrator of a Linux-based lab is the actual ease of administration. Once I set something up in Linux, I rarely need to worry about it again. This was not the case with Windows. Last year we were constantly suffering from system crashes, frozen servers, strange bugs and the infamous ``blue screen of death''. Needless to say, it was a frustrating situation for many students. While Linux is not bug-free, it has been a far more stable operating system for both our workstations and servers. Linux also has shown itself to be a much more versatile operating system to administer in a network environment. My job is more pleasurable thanks to our switch to Linux.
As a teacher of computer science, I am finding this year a fascinating test for Linux. Very few of our students, parents or teachers knew what Linux was before this year. I have actually found this to be a great advantage in teaching computers. In the past, I have found students to be disinterested in learning about the personal computer running Windows, because it is something most of them grew up with at home. This lack of interest made it more difficult to teach the more-advanced aspects of the operating system. However, Linux is something completely new, different and unexplored. Instead of being intimidated by the change, as many adults might be, young people are excited to explore the ``uncharted territory''. This opens a door for me as a teacher, allowing me to educate eager minds in the more-advanced aspects of computer operating systems and software. In fact, it only took two weeks until students began to ask me, ``Where can I get Linux?''
People sometimes ask me, ``Is teaching our students Linux preparing them for the workplace?'' This question is based on the fact that Microsoft is the current dominating presence in operating systems and office software. It is a question I have thought over a long time, and the answer I always come up with is, ``Yes, most definitely.'' The basic principles of any type of operating system, office application or other similarly grouped software are the same. A student who becomes proficient in Linux will not find themselves lost in a Windows environment. I have found Linux to be the more advanced of the two operating systems, yet our students are very quickly and easily learning it. The process of copying a file or formatting a paragraph is not so different between one operating system and the other. The important thing is we are able to offer the latest in hardware and software tools to train our students in these fundamental principles--something we could not do if we went with proprietary software.
Another question that may be even more important to ask is, ``What is the future of Linux?'' When our students graduate a few years from now, will they enter a Microsoft-dominated workplace or will the tide have changed? Even in our small New England town of Houlton, Maine, businesses are beginning to look to Linux as an alternative to proprietary operating systems. These businesses will need qualified personnel familiar with the Linux operating system and open-source applications. Greater Houlton Christian Academy will be graduating young men and women who will be able to meet that need, a claim not many schools in our nation can currently make. In fact, some of our students may go on to write the future applications for Linux, giving back to the community that helped them during their school years.
For us, switching to open-source software running on the Linux operating system has been the right choice, allowing us to provide our students with modern equipment and software for a fraction of the cost of a computer lab running proprietary software. If Linux continues to grow in popularity and gain a foothold in the workplace, we will look back at our choice as one of the most important decisions we've ever made.
__________
The problem with using Linux is that the children won't learn how to use Windows, which is what most people use, but they will probably have Windows at home anyways. Maybe they'll even try Linux at home!
Educational programs + wine (Score:2)
Re:Educational programs + wine (Score:2, Interesting)
This is the main problem I'm facing right now.
I am the technical guy on my kid's school board(8 people plus the principal).
This is a private k-8 school with about 300 students.
Linux completely makes sense for this school barring one thing. Educational software. Among other pieces they have Reader Rabbit(tm) and HyperStudio. Neither of which I have been able to emulate in Linux.
What we really need now is an organization to push the importance of having this software ported to Linux. As people start to realize that school's techonology budgets should go towards hardware instead of Microsoft licenses, Linux is becoming more and more important.
OpenOffice.org is perfect for an office suite, but these other eductional software pieces really need to be ported.
Many of these programs are DOS-based or even win32 + quicktime based(yuck). They are flashy noisy programs that younger kids really seem to like.
The use SDL [libsdl.org] would make a lot more sense as a foundation for educational software. Bill Kendrick's Tuxpaint is one example of a fun little program that is cross-platform using SDL.
If there's already an organization out there pushing Linux educational software, I haven't heard of it.
It doesn't have have to be free as in beer or speech, but It should be cross-platform from the get go.
Re:Educational programs + wine (Score:2)
Keep in touch and I'll keep you up to date on what I get working (if any - heh)
Re:Educational programs + wine (Score:2, Informative)
They don't. They run under KDE [kde.com].
If Only More Schools Would Do This... (Score:5, Informative)
After working in a public school district, the fear of Microsoft had certainly struck us. We had an entire room devoted to holding the "Welcome to Windows" manuals, licenses, and EULA's, and were hoping never to get that dreaded audit.
While we were unable to make the switch to Linux while I was working at the district (we had entered into contracts beta-testing new Windows-based attendance/grading software), it certainly struck me as the way to go.
In addition, the quality general computer instruction available at this school is something to strive for. I think that students are quite capable of utilizing Linux efficiently, especially if they are familiarized with it early on.
More ways to save money. (Score:5, Funny)
As we all know, nuclear tests have been banned for quite some time now. And government research labs all over the fruited plain spend enormous amounts of money on supercomputers that simulate nuclear explosions.
Well, it should be much cheaper just to set up a bunch of cheap earthquake monitors in the northwest US; have someone print that picture from the story; mail it to Steve Ballmer's house; and carefully watch the monitors for the next couple of days.
Seriously, if that article ever makes its way over to Redmond HQ, it's not going to get a warm reception. Given what I've observed about Microsoft's mentality, just the photo itself is good enough for a few ulcers. Seriously speaking, this is not a cheap yuck. That small picture clearly shows the biggest threat to the monopoly that Microsoft has spent the last decade building up. Stuff like this has to be a pepto-bismol moment for the MS bigwigs that read it.
they must hate Microsoft (Score:2)
religious connotations of OS's (Score:5, Funny)
A Brit named William Tyndale had the same idea, he printed 50 copies of the
Bible *in English*, the establishment was that shocked at this idea, they burnt
him at the stake. Probably because they thought the idea of the common people
having direct access to the 'holy writ' would lead to them thinking for
themselves and having dangerous ideas.
How like the current debate between open source and closed source this all
sounds. Just substitute operating system for Bible, money for God, the stock
market for the Holy Roman Empire and Bill Gates as the Pope and it all lines up
Re:religious connotations of OS's (Score:3, Funny)
And Palladium would be the Inquisition?
What? (Score:2)
Does this mean that low end hardware won't boot at that school?
What Microsoft counts on (Score:5, Insightful)
Microsoft makes a lot of money off of schools and governments with this ploy. The truth is that very few organizations can keep track of that information (the physical licenses) over a long period of time. If nothing else it tends to get lost in the mounds of paperwork that any organization produces. Lets see; did we file that under computers, licenses, software, Microsoft, EULA etc.
I seriously doubt that the expenses of dealing with BSA thugs and having to pay multiple times for the same software, gets figured into the total cost of ownership figures that Microsoft touts.
Schools could save even more money with Linux by taking advantage of the multi-user ability of Linux; convert old PC's into diskless X-terminals and have a few central machines running Linux for the whole school. Not only can the cost of the hardware go way down, but the system admin expenses can shrink enormously.
Ask MS to be the custodian (Score:3, Interesting)
Idea:
Why make MS custodian of the Licenses. Make that a requirement during negotiation. Second the information should be available via web so you can make a hardcopy at the schools discretion. Thirdly this would allow the Independant schools district to get an overview on what they have and what they spend.
If MS does not want to do this then make the dicision to phase MS out over a certain number of years and turn the Licensing tracking over to Apple or a Linux Services company that provides in education support.
If such a services company does not exist, then lets make one.
Linux in the Public Schools (Score:2, Insightful)
Dell, Gateway, IBM - Schools can't buy from them.. (Score:4, Informative)
We had to build our own as do most schools using Linux. http://k12ltsp.org/rhs_casestudy.html [k12ltsp.org]
When will large vendors realize that there is a market in K12 for Linux? EVERY install I see is the result of one or two hard working teachers, often supported by local LUGs working to save $$$ and provide technology to classrooms.
It's great to see this but these teachers are the exception not the norm.
LTSP!! (Score:4, Informative)
I do find the following humorous:
I had experimented with Linux a few years earlier but found it somewhat difficult and incomplete. Because some time had passed, I decided to give Linux another try. Going with Mandrake's 8.0 distribution, I installed Linux at home to see if it could replace Windows in a desktop environment. To my amazement, I found Linux to be much more capable this time around. I was one step closer to making my decision to switch our computer lab to the Linux OS.
Yes, it's quite amazing how software changes over the years!
Re:Great, and when they graduate with zero Windows (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Great, and when they graduate with zero Windows (Score:2)
Re:Great, and when they graduate with zero Windows (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Great, and when they graduate with zero Windows (Score:2)
The school is question [agaweb.com] is an elaborate joke promulgated by the people at landover baptist [landoverbaptist.org], with a yearly tuition of US $2290 [ghca.com]. Colleges cost more, but only for four years. I imagine that even students on their scholarship program (the tuition is minimally US $590 per anum) mostly go on to college, especially the nerds in the computer room.
If the parents can afford to send their kids to private school, they can probably afford to send them to college. The ones in the computer room are likely to want to go.
For that matter, if the parents can afford to send their kids to a private school, they probably have computers at home, and they probably run windows; the hippies-for-christ up in Maine may choose to avoid computers in their homes, but I don't really think it's much of an issue.
Parent is not polite, but not wrong (Score:2, Insightful)
While I like Linux myself, using Linux over Windows is a public-good problem. Everyone is better off if everyone uses Linux over Windows, but if a single school gives students experience with Linux and the rest Windows, it's doing a worse job of helping its students.
People these days put *applications* down as job skills. "Excel", "Word", etc. To not have your students be familiar with these when the vast majority of businesses use these (and likely will for at least a few more years) is doing the school's students a disservice. If you have a choice between hiring Jonny, who knows Word (which your company uses) and Jimmy, who knows KWord (which you've never heard of)...well, you're going to grab the one that's going to generate less support costs.
And simply using Linux does not turn students into experienced computer scientists or IT personnel, doesn't make them suddenly far more capable of learning to use different software packages.
I realize that there are budget issues involved, I realize that there are stability issues involved, and I still have to say that the majority of students are currently better off being familiarized with Microsoft's operating system and application suite than Open Office and Linux or KWord and Linux or AbiWord and Linux.
Finally, for the people that say that school is for teaching you general concepts, not a specific skill set -- yes, that's true. In twenty years, it's very unlikely if people will be using something much like the current iteration of MS Word *or* Open Office. But there is a not insignificant short-term benefit, and I don't think it's entirely fair to the students to deprive them of that edge. Word and Excel are nearly everwhere, whether we like it or not.
Wrong, need something extra (Score:4, Insightful)
Stating linux skills and alternative applications is a good way to show that you can think for yourselves and at least for now makes you stand out.
Re:Parent is not polite, but not wrong (Score:4, Insightful)
"Business students"???????"
Yeah, all those twelve-year-olds leaving GHCA to join the job market will suffer greatly.
At worst, all that this will mean is an awkward year of adjustment when they first get to college, though even there, a solid knowledge of Linux will, in fact, give them other edges including better odds of getting junior IT work (such as helping out in the labs for work-study or managing some department's local server problems) during college. Hmmmm, other kids trying to get jobs as waiters, these kids already qualified for minor sysadmin work; sounds like a win-win to me.
I love how the Redmond-damaged always pull that one out when somebody suggests anything but Windoze. Especially in a case like this where the article points out that most of their students already use Win. at home. If you'ld read it you would know that.
So, I'm curious, 0x0d0a, should I put you down as sloppy, bigoted, or foolish?
Doggone brain washed, narrowminded, lazy-brained, sad-assed . . . .
-Rustin
I'd argue again (Score:2)
Hmm. I'm not sure whether that's the right term. I meant a broader spectrum. Business students, yes, but also non-managerial office workers, professional workers that need to interact with non-specialized computer systems, that sort of thing.
Yeah, all those twelve-year-olds leaving GHCA to join the job market will suffer greatly.
Where do you propose they start learning Windows and MS apps? Junior high? High school? College? Should they tell a business that they'll need on-the-job training with the software packages? Sure, it'd be nice to find a job where you *don't* use MS apps, but to be honest, the majority of them do.
At worst, all that this will mean is an awkward year of adjustment when they first get to college, though even there, a solid knowledge of Linux will, in fact, give them other edges including better odds of getting junior IT work (such as helping out in the labs for work-study or managing some department's local server problems) during college. Hmmmm, other kids trying to get jobs as waiters, these kids already qualified for minor sysadmin work; sounds like a win-win to me.
No, this I have to disagree with. I tried to mention this in my original post. Slapping Joe User on a Linux box in a user-level environment where they see windows and icons simply doesn't automatically make them a sysadmin -- having "used Linux" isn't a magic wand that makes people technically competent. Sure, lots of Linux users *are* technically competent -- but that's because technically competent users often graviate to Linux. The cause and effect is, I'd argue, more in the other direction.
Finally, I also mentioned that I'm not talking about IS or CS students. They may possibly (and keep in mind, there are still a lot more Windows-based jobs out there...I'd like to work at Red Hat, but I suspect it's a bitch to get in) be better off using Linux. However, they are also a small minority.
I love how the Redmond-damaged always pull that one out when somebody suggests anything but Windoze.
I can't say that really applies -- I *have* used Windows before, and people ask me to help me with their Windows computers, but I've really had a Windows only box for about six months, between years of Mac OS only and years of Linux only. I don't think Linux is a bad thing, and it's great if you're into software development or sysadmin work. I just don't think it's currently the best thing to be teaching all elementary school students (from the students' perspective).
Especially in a case like this where the article points out that most of their students already use Win. at home. If you'ld read it you would know that.
What, so the economically-privileged, most-likely-to-be-college-bound should be the only ones to have Windows experience? The whole idea of putting computers in public schools was so that the US population had mass, applicable experience with computer usage, so we don't have masses being turned out each year that have to be trained on the job or deal with things in college.
So, I'm curious, 0x0d0a, should I put you down as sloppy, bigoted, or foolish?
Well, I guess it's kind of hard for me to argue against slanted terms like those. I don't think I'm particularly bigoted. *I* use LaTeX when I write documents, have only Linux on my computer (and have for years), use Open Office to deal with MS documents, try to convince people I interact with to use open file formats like RTF instead of Word documents, use gnumeric, develop with the GNU suite even when I'm stuck working on Windows, and have contributed plenty of patches to Linux software. I really think that any argument about bigotry would have to be that I'm biased towards Linux. I just don't think that it's in the best interest of the kids at this school to be using Linux instead of becoming familiar with the MS suite and Windows.
Sorry, parent was wrong. (Score:5, Insightful)
Everyone is better off if everyone uses Linux over Windows, but if a single school gives students experience with Linux and the rest Windows, it's doing a worse job of helping its students.
Using Word is like operating a television set: anyone can do it. Not everyone is familiar with UNIX based operating systems. That gives them an edge. If they don't know how to make a borderless text box in Word, they can pick it up in a day. Applications are honestly dirt easy if you have a broad enough experience base. It is virtually impossible to avoid MS Office these days, and enough to put down on a resume is trivial. Being able to add Linux on a resume at least is interesting and at most shows competence.
Quite honestly, Putting MS Office on your resume is like putting "Can use Pencil."
If you have a choice between hiring Jonny, who knows Word (which your company uses) and Jimmy, who knows KWord (which you've never heard of)...well, you're going to grab the one that's going to generate less support costs.
And if Jimmy comes to you and says that he can save your organization tens of thousands of dollars per year by switching you to an OS and an Office Suite you have never heard of, you are going to like that initiative. Even if you are hesitant and don't follow through with it, you will see Jimmy as a managerial material, rather than another office drone.
In twenty years, it's very unlikely if people will be using something much like the current iteration of MS Word *or* Open Office. But there is a not insignificant short-term benefit, and I don't think it's entirely fair to the students to deprive them of that edge.
Sorry, it's pretty insignificant, compared to being able to offer a programming elective. These kids are growing up in a world where the average 5 year old is more familiar with a computer than the average current office worker. They can undo in their sleep. What you hold prescious and dear just isn't that impressive. There may have been some debate originally about whether to use rotary or numeric phones in diagrams for children, but the distinction was, quite honestly, a trivial one. The ability to use MS Office and Open Office is trivial, but using MS Office is unavoidable while having used Open Office is at least a little special. Picking up a windowed interface is unavoidable, but picking up a powerful command line is actually useful (even in a business setting, typing ftp somehost@somewhere.com is much easier than opening Internet Explorer, going to a download site, getting administrator priveledges...).
You're probably trolling too (as judging from your previous comments you don't seem to be experienced), but this is exactly the sort of argument that you hear from many computer-illiterate managers who are struggling to learn the "industry standard" interface. To the next generation, Office is a 4-th grade computer literacy level. We can do better.
Re:Parent is not polite, but not wrong (Score:2)
Everyone is better off if everyone uses Linux over Windows, but if a single school gives students experience with Linux and the rest Windows, it's doing a worse job of helping its students.
You seem to be totally missing the point. There's not a chance in hell that the whole world will just pick a day and switch to LInux. You have to do it damn near one person at a time. First this school does it (they're not first, I know), then another school sees it and does it. Especially if this school starts spewing out higher test scores because their students are using an OS that respects them. It's called a "snowball" or a "domino" effect, and it's the only way change can be enacted.
And simply using Linux does not turn students into experienced computer scientists or IT personnel, doesn't make them suddenly far more capable of learning to use different software packages.
Actually, it does. :) Just like once upon a time DOS hackers instantly became transformed into "experts". Nowadays everyone can use windows, and one reason for that is because of a dictated "this is how an app should work" standard. While I think such things are good things, and many GNU/Linux apps follow some sort of standard interface, there's still a lot of variety. Free Software is about choice as much as it is anything else. Freedom of choice is the first, and foremost freedom, without which all other freedoms fall by the wayside. Most KDE apps work in similar fashions, so when yo uknow how to use one KDE app you quickly learn how to use the rest. Most GNOME apps also work in similar fashions. However, most KDE apps and most GNOME apps do not work similar. And it's damn near impossible to get one desktop or the other to do everything for you. Inevitably, you *will* run a GNOME app under KDE or vice versa. ANd this is where it happens that people who use GNU/Linux automatically learn how to adapt to changing interfaces.
This last point is mostly irrelevant, however, because you forgot the most important thing this school is doing. It's teaching kids about their freedom by showing them a free OS. Whether or not the kids learn it is up to them, but the school is making the information available. You don't even have *that* in a windows-dominated school. Furthermore, it's freeing the kids as individuals to chose their own OS, their own platform in general, and showing them *how* to stand up for themselves. (I realize it's different than standing up to the playground bully)
I disagree that a school's purpose is to prepare kids for the workplace, because that smacks of slavery to me. We should all be preparing our kids to live as responsible, free adults. Education is the single most valuable tool we can give them, and that is what school is for. It's not about just teaching them how to be good worker drones. We also have to teach our kids how to cook, clean their homes, mend their pants (it's not always possible to buy new pants), make and maintain relationships, and so forth. We have to hand this world down to our kids when they reach adulthood, and we fuckin' better prepare them.
Speaking as a parent of two, with a third on the way. :)
Re:Great, and when they graduate with zero Windows (Score:2, Interesting)
These kids will have linux experience.
Thanks to our former governor, many students have Macs.
While I'm not convinced the program was a good idea, I am very glad that they went with something non-MS.
Breadth of knowledge is important - the more exposure kids have to the differences between these systems the more likely it is that we will continue to see some diversity in operating systems. Moving between Aqua, X and Windows isn't much of a stretch, none of them will suffer in the market place for having exposure to these systems. Most will not delve into these machines any deeper then the UI. But they will know that there are choices.
Re:terrible (Score:2, Funny)
Puh-lease.
Re:terrible (Score:5, Insightful)
Now, we all know that a deep understanding of DOS is not of critical importance for 99%+ of those working in the "real world." Applicatios, OSes and even interface paradigms change. If you ask me, the use of computers in school should be geared towards in no particular order.
1) Becoming familiar and comfortable with how to use computers; not teaching kids how to hack the kernel, but more geared towards general computing concepts that will carry over from one platform to another, one appication to another, etc.
2) Using computers as tools to do research and write papers. By this, I don't mean making sure kids use computers to do stuff; but help kids identify when the computer is the most appropiate tool for a task. General research is done well on a computer, so it preparation for deep research, but at some point you have to go to the library to do serious work. Using a spreadsheet to keep track of expenses for a business class is a great idea, but only well after the principles are understood.
Computers are tools and should be treated as much. The best way to learn how to use a tool is by using it; guidance is nice, but I bet the kids who learn the most about computers are those who use them as an integrated part of study to get stuff done. Because THAT'S how there used in the real world.
Re:terrible (Score:4, Insightful)
Children should be taught the fundamental computer applications such as Ms Word, Visual Basic, Internet Explorer, Excel, ect... not the hacked together "gnu" versions featured in linux.
I apologize to other /. readers for troll-feeding, but this one was just too much to pass up...
Re:terrible (Score:3, Insightful)
Heck, to me the real crime is teaching kids nothing BUT Windows, by which I mean not really teaching them anything but to click A to make B happen, and to go into a panic if they can't find a button labelled "Start". People should be subjected to all sorts of different computer environments, otherwise how will they really know what they prefer? And since these kids will inevitably see windows later in life if they haven't already, school doesn't really need to spend much time on it.
Computers are all basically the same. The important thing is that when they're faced with Windows, or Linux, or MacOS, or *BSD, or whatever, that they're not immediately put off by it, because after all, a computer is a computer is a computer.
Re:terrible (Score:2, Interesting)
The basic functions of all of the programs you listed work similar enough in Linux that it won't make an iota of difference in 'preparation' for the 'real world' (back, forward buttons, reload buttons look and behave identically on IE and on Phoenix running on Linux, for example). VB I guess is the obvious exception, but I'm not sure how you can be so confident that VB won't be anything other than a historical footnote in 10 or 15 yrs. (or so morphed from what it is today) that again it doesn't matter -- this also applies to all applications btw.
I've seen people (Ma, and GF) just pick up AbiWord (never before been in anything other than a MS enviroment, mind you) and know how to change fonts, save and create a document, etc.
The difference will be in the minutiae of, let's say the exact layout of the options under 'Edit' -- which will change anyways as Windows and Windows applications evolve. I really don't think anything will be lost at all.
The advantage, IMHO, is that students with the interest/ability to dig deeper into what the computer is doing will be able to, unlike in a Windows enviroment where things are purposedly (and, again IMHO, unnecessarily) obscured, and the cash savings part of it are important too.
I say, hurrah for the school, someone there 'gets it' (IMHO!)
Re:terrible (Score:3, Funny)
I'll start with Internet Explorer here. The main interaction w/ a web browser is via the adress bar, clicking on links, and some bookmarks. Obviously there is no chance that these poor kids will ever be able to surf the web w/ IE if they learn the basics using mozilla. (although there might be the chance that they don't WANT to use IE if they know mozilla)
On to MS Word. While it is true that there is some difference in word processing programs, the core operations and abstractions are the same on each. Ditto for Excel.
And i won't event talk about Visual Basic. I'll only say that while i oppose the death penalty, i still think that the person who came up with the idea to build some wierd object-oriented bastard BASIC should be shot. sorry. almost went on a rant here.
Re:terrible (Score:4, Insightful)
I've been to college (CS major), been around computers my ENTIRE life, and been deep in Unix for the past 7 years. (And I'm only 24.)
You know what I do with User Manuals? I throw them the fuck away, because I understand how computers work, and the thought process that developers are going through when they write software. Because of this understanding, I'm able to be proficient at new software within a matter of minutes, and an expert within a few days.
I think we are better off teaching our children the fundemental computer application TYPES. Fuck the specific apps. MS Word and Open Office are the same as far as 90% of users are concerned. They provide text formatting, spell check, and can print.
Instead of teaching Visual Basic, teach them programming concepts. Variables, loops, arrays, functions, data structures. Visual Basic is a syntax. You can take the same basic concepts and apply them to C, Java, Fortran, Shell scripting, etc.
Instead of Excel, teach them about SPREADSHEETS. How they work. Some cells contain data, some contain functions. What good are spreadsheets? When should we use them?
Don't teach Access. Teach database concepts. Tables, select statements, how joins work. How to think like a database optimizer to keep your statements from taking 9 years to complete.
Instead of Internet Explorer, teach them about the internet in general. What is it? How does it work? How to I make a website? How do you make dynamic websites? How do I find the information I'm looking for on the internet?
Computers are general machines. They are completely programmable, and to teach our children any specific application is a sure waste of time. Any application you teach them in 5th grade can easily be obsolete by the time they graduate highschool. Teach them the real fundamentals, and they'll have the knowldege to adapt to the industry as it changes.
And don't whine about having to relearn computers after school. Buttons are buttons, a cursor is a cursor, an icon is an icon, and a command line is a command line. The desktop paradigm hasn't changed since Xerox invented the fucking thing. When it happened, everyone relearned the interface. When it happens again, everyone will again relearn. (Including the "lucky" children that were taught the way you seem to prefer.) However, when the paradigm shifts, those with the true fundamental knowledge will adapt more quickly. The rest will be playing catch-up.
On a more personal note, I could give less of a fuck what the school system teaches when it comes to computers. I've had a computer my whole life, and so will my children, and you can bet your ass that they will know how things really work in the 5th grade, just as I did.
Cheers!
Re:terrible (Score:2, Interesting)
Similarly, teaching kids Linux in school will likely result in kids being able to efficiently use both Linux and Windows upon graduation, since they will use Linux in school, and will probably learn how to use Windows elsewhere since it is so pervasive (home, friends place, etc). Besides, even if they don't pick up Windows while in school the skills they have from Linux will make the learning curve short and easy when the time comes.
There is more to computers than the 'fundamental' applications such as MS Word, Excel, VB and IE. If you restrict your teaching to those topics then you are doing you children a disservice by refusing to teach them how a computer works. We're not training tomorrows secretaries here, we're training tomorrows computer scientists.
flamebait !?!? (Score:4, Insightful)
While I think he's wrong, it's a common point of view and the pilar or the "switch / lock-in" problem.
If the kids know linux and main GNU apps , those apps he mentions (bloated pieces of software) can be learnt in 10 minutes. At least, the important 10% we use 99% of the time.
Another thing you should think about is unstability in the IT world. When I was 15, Wordperfect was dominant (5.1 for MSDOS then 6.0 for windows 16bit) and some people still used wordstar. I learnt Ashton Tate's Framework 3 and dBase. Those were the standards by then. I had to relearn EVERYTHING because in some years windows took over and then win95 (completely different BTW). I spent hundreds of hours getting used to countless key combos - things are a lot easier now.
Doesn't matter what those kids learn, it will be outdated when they leave college for a job.
Re:terrible (Score:5, Insightful)
Ok, again, from the top. These are CHILDREN. They learn well, have access to Windows in other places (read the article, Stan), and are somewhere between five and eighteen years from the job market.
In other words, what you're saying is the equivalent of "these kids aren't learning DOS 4.0 so they'll be utterly crippled when they try and get jobs using Windows 98".
Oh, and by the way, as somebody with about a decade in corporate IT, who has helped out in quite a few schools, and who has taught remedial computer skills classes for middle-aged unemployables, I can tell you that the amount of time that it takes to learn one OS if one is truly comfortable in another (please note that Curran at this school made a point of teaching that) is measured in weeks at most.
And I can also tell you from hard experience with hundreds of users that the biggest obstacle to learning how to use a given OS is crashing/failure. Put a user in front of a machine that is out of date and keeps crashing and they will blame first themselves, then the OS, then you, the teacher. All of these translate into resentment and all of them will create long-term barriers to use. So if this guy says that his system saves tons of money and thereby cuts seriously down on crashes then that right there will make the kids more computer-capable.
I'll try and say this over in small words to help you out.
1.) Linux today and Windoze today both are very different from whatever these kids will need to know when they graduate.
2.) These kids are nowhere near the job market.
3.) It gets easier every year to teach people to switch OSes.
and 4.) An approach that let the school buy and maintain better computers will right there help these kids on the way to being good with computers. All computers.
There. Was that so hard?
I swear, one of these days . . .
Rustin
Re:Smashing Success? (Score:2, Insightful)
Most jobs don't need skill with Word or Excel either. Basic familiarity with how a spreadsheet and word processor work are more useful than having used Word a lot. I don't know about you, but when I learned to use a word processor. And when I was taught to use a spread sheet, I was told what it does, not just how to put little numbers into the boxes. Too many people were clearly not taught this, and think that a spreadsheet is just for presentations. They use a frickin calculator with it!
A Linux spreadsheet will probably be more use if this is the case.
Re:I'm curious... (Score:3, Funny)
What an excellent troll.
--Linux makes my mouse hot. The heat actually destroyed my mouse. It also causes cancer and
helps fund terrorists.--
LOL.