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More On Tragedy 2087

There's been lots more happening today - arrests and suspect taken from the Westin Hotel in Boston, as well as the Park Hotel in Newton, MA, which is right down the road for me. There's been some thoughtful submissons about people saving the feeds on their [PVR]s, so that the moment isn't lost in time. NATO has invoked Article 5, meaning that for first in history, I believe, the mutual defense clause has been activated. More news included below.
Scott Laird writes "We've received notice that our network facilities in NYC are going to run out of Diesel in ~2 hours, and there's no way to get more diesel to them until lower manhattan is opened up. Since we're located in the same facilties as most of the other major network providers in Manhattan, odds are there are going to be a lot of things dropping off the air this afternoon."

ELBnet writes It would be a godsend if the various survivor registries would pool their data, or if someone sets up a google-like search engine to reach all of them at once - and that is a great idea. I set up the search engine at but need URLs to populate it. Please e-mail me any suggested URLS and I'll add them.

Also please don't /. the site... let the people who need it get to it. Spread the word."

Radio Free Wazee writes "Radio Free Wazee has suspended its normal programming in order to provide a relay for National Public Radio. Most of the sites are slammed -- we've got room for about 320 listeners. You'll need an MP3 player (WinAMP, etc.) -- the stream is at Our web site is Howard @ radio free waee"

GatorMan writes "The Red Cross and have setup a donations page for disaster relief to aide in the recovery of our people. I've seen it jump $100,000 in an hour (thanks to my $10 I'm sure) with over 25,000 donations so far, very promising. No where else on Earth could you find support like this."

winksmith writes "as many of us look on the recent crashes in horror, we will also be pushed towards more tech solutions to some of the scenarios witnessed. i believe experts agree that the buildings may have stood up to forces of the crash had it not been for the very hot fuel burning w/i the building. the building themselves were designed to take aircraft impacts (albeit circa 1960 aircraft). this disaster may spark re-interest in fuel additives for jet fuel that would immediately put out fires upon impact.

the faa and nasa ran some very extensive tests including the purposeful crashing of a large boeing jet (B720) in december of 1984. the tests were not encouraging. details are available. figure 1-1 shows the jet crashing.

no one can second guess what would have happened, but perhaps continued research into this area might have played a role in saving a few more lives. and still may in the future."

Wiggins writes ""The Internet Fraud Complaint Center recently received several complaints that someone is using the letters, "FBI" or "" in an e-mail address in order to make it seem that the message is coming from an FBI employee. In several cases, the message said, "Your application is approved. Please fill out this form to confirm your identity" and solicited the person's name, address, credit card number and expiration date." More on the I am sure /. users know better, but the general populace doesn't (always)."

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More On Tragedy

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  • Amazon Donation Page (Score:5, Informative)

    by jeff67 ( 318942 ) on Wednesday September 12, 2001 @04:59PM (#2288255)
    It's worth mentioning that Amazon isn't charging their usual cut for the service, all money is going to Red Cross. And (this is a bit odd) it's refundable for 30 days.
  • Check Out Amazon (Score:4, Informative)

    by digitac ( 24581 ) on Wednesday September 12, 2001 @05:00PM (#2288258) Homepage
    This may not be exactly on topic with the story above but relevent.

    I've been watching's RedCross donation page today. It was mentioned here earlier. It has just passed $1 million collected with over 36,000 people contributing. Truely amazing.

    I hope everyone will consider donating at least a little bit to help the victims.

  • by Eagle7 ( 111475 ) on Wednesday September 12, 2001 @05:01PM (#2288266) Homepage
    Over 36,000 people have contributed over $1,000,000 today. Wow - amazing. Get there and give money if you haven't!
  • by AntiFreeze ( 31247 ) <antifreeze42@gmail. c o m> on Wednesday September 12, 2001 @05:03PM (#2288277) Homepage Journal
    A short while ago, there was a press conference from the Pentagon. Rumsfield and the director of the FBI both spoke. The Director said that no arrests have yet been made of any suspects. There were some "questionings" -- an uninformative word to me -- but no arrests.

    Just wanted to clarify that.

  • Re:Article 5 (Score:5, Informative)

    by Ghoser777 ( 113623 ) <fahrenba@ma[ ]om ['c.c' in gap]> on Wednesday September 12, 2001 @05:06PM (#2288294) Homepage
    The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all, and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective selfdefence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually, and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area. Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security.

  • by wdavies ( 163941 ) on Wednesday September 12, 2001 @05:08PM (#2288314) Homepage
    This article [] links the CIA with Bin Laden... Scary? I saw Orrin mouthing off yesterday as well.

    This link was discovered via Slashdot, via Michael Moore's page.


  • by Matador76 ( 518456 ) on Wednesday September 12, 2001 @05:10PM (#2288332)
    Most of the TV stations were off the air when the second building collapsed. Only WCBS-TV has a backup transmitter (@ Empire State Building.) They've since piggybacked onto other broadcasters outside of Manhattan to get a signal out. NPR FM station is now using another stations call letters and frequency.
  • Airport security (Score:5, Informative)

    by Pope ( 17780 ) on Wednesday September 12, 2001 @05:10PM (#2288336)
    I've been hearing about the proposal to beef up security for domestic flights in the USA: bravo!
    I have flown many international flights, but only 3 or 4 times within the USA, and quite frankly security always seemed a little lax, even compared to Canada. This is not to say that airport officals are directly to blame for this tragedy, but one can also look at it pragmatically: there are HUGE numbers of people flying within the USA at all times, and regular delays only seem to piss people off. What will happen now if the security becomes much stricter? I'm afraid we'll all have to deal with it when the time comes, but it's not going to be a pretty sight trying to process that many people.

    In more positive news, many hundreds of Torontonians have turned out to donate blood! (OK, me included) Please disregard the troll who has been posting that the Red Cross has lots of blood: it's been a known fact for the past year that supplies have been *very* low both here and in the US. Go for it if you can! Even if your blood is not used for this emergency. blood is ALWAYS in demand, and will NOT get thrown out like the troll has implied. It all gets stored and sorted, never has there been a surplus!

  • by mimbleton ( 467957 ) on Wednesday September 12, 2001 @05:11PM (#2288343) Homepage ml
  • by Compulawyer ( 318018 ) on Wednesday September 12, 2001 @05:13PM (#2288364)
    I believe the full text of the treaty (including Article 5) is here []

    Or copy and paste:

  • by Harper ( 5397 ) on Wednesday September 12, 2001 @05:13PM (#2288366) Homepage Journal
    I have set up a rather extensive set of image and video mirrors.
    Please mirror these.

    I have made tar balls of the images and the movies so everyone will be able to set up their own mirror. -(26985k) -(200189k)

    i am not sure on the copyright issues. But anyone is welcome to dload and set up content mirrors.
  • References (Score:2, Informative)

    by Str8Dog ( 240982 ) on Wednesday September 12, 2001 @05:23PM (#2288453) Homepage Journal
    In my haste I forgot to reference the origal thread [] Sorry about that.

    Also this is of interest:

    Origins: On June 5 1973, Canadian radio commentator Gordon Sinclair decided he'd had enough of the stream of criticism and negative press recently directed at the United States of America by foreign journalists (primarily over America's long military involvement in Vietnam, which had ended with the signing of the Paris Peace Accords six months earlier). When he arrived at radio station CFRB in Toronto that morning, he spent twenty minutes dashing off a two-page editorial defending the USA against its carping critics which he then delivered in a defiant, indignant tone during his "Let's Be Personal" spot at 11:45 AM that day.

    The unusualness of any foreign correspondent -- even one from a country with such close ties to the USA as Canada -- delivering such a caustic commentary about those who would dare to criticize the USA is best demonstrated by the fact that even thirty years later, many Americans doubt that this piece (which has been circulating on the Internet in the slightly-altered form quoted above as something "recently" printed in a Toronto newspaper) is real. It is real, and it received a great deal of attention in its day. After Sinclair's editorial was rebroadcast by a few American radio stations, it spread like wildfire all over the country. It was played again and again (often superimposed over a piece of inspirational music such as "Battle Hymn of the Republic" or "Bridge Over Troubled Waters"), read into the Congress Record multiple times, and finally released on a record (titled "The Americans"), with all royalties donated to the American Red Cross. (A Detroit radio broadcaster named Byron MacGregor recorded and released an unauthorized version of the piece that hit the record stores before Sinclair's official version; an infringement suit was avoided when MacGregor agreed to donate his profits to the Red Cross as well).

    Sinclair passed away in 1984, but he will long be remembered on both sides of the U.S.-Canadian border -- both for his contributions to journalism, and for his loudly proclaiming what no one else at the time would stand up and say.

  • by Unix_Poseur1 ( 442384 ) on Wednesday September 12, 2001 @05:23PM (#2288455)

    Here are some links for the demonstration mentioned above. They are on the Dryden Flight Research center site which has an archive of aviation related images, videos, and more. An incredible site. The videos are particularly unsettling

    videos []

    photos []

    Unity folks, unity is important

  • by TrumpetPower! ( 190615 ) <> on Wednesday September 12, 2001 @05:47PM (#2288700) Homepage

    Something I just thought of a little while ago, to help me gain some perspective on what happened:

    A Boeing 767-400ER [] has a maximum takeoff mass of a shade more than 200,000 kg. It has a typical cruise speed of 840 km/h.

    Using our favorite formula for kinetic energy, that comes to about 5.6 billion Joules, or between one and two tons of TNT.

    Or, in other words, just the force of that much mass at that speed is about the same as a WWII blockbuster bomb. Add in some twenty thousand gallons of jet fuel...and I still can't wrap my mind around that much destructive force.

    And I thought cars on the freeway were deadly!

    May such magnificient machines never again be used for such awful, awful purpose.


  • by frknfrk ( 127417 ) on Wednesday September 12, 2001 @06:12PM (#2288928) Homepage
    i found a MUCH more detailed and probably more impartial bio on [].

    in short, he forewarned Saudi of Saddam's invasions and offered the forces he had lead in Afghanistan to repel them, but instead found that the United States was coming to his country. with a degree in economics he could plainly see that the US was there to stay.

  • by erostratus ( 72103 ) on Wednesday September 12, 2001 @06:12PM (#2288935)
    If it makes you feel better, think about how much we spend on defense each year. Now think about the dollar value of the fact that Iraq didn't have nukes in 1991. Was aid to Israel cost effective?

    Well, perhaps you are not aware we funded Hussein with military weapons until six months prior to the Gulf "War" because the U.S. government supported his killing of Kurdish rebels in northern Iraq. So long as it didn't affect American oil interests, the gov't didn't care who he killed.

    I'm not going to relentlessly cheerlead Israel -- their settlement policy in the West Bank was a mistake and it's come back to haunt them. But it's worth keeping in mind that the only country in that region in which Arabs can vote is Israel. In the rest of the area, the best they can hope for is a reasonably benign king (Morocco, Jordan) or despot (Egypt). And also that the current hostility isn't because Israel denied the Palestinians a homeland but because it offered them one.

    Apparently you have never been to Israel. Go there and have a crime committed against you. See how strongly the police officials try to get you to say an Arab committed the crime. See how you can't find out what the convicted's punishment is (so he or she can be tortured by CIA-trained Israelis).

    And by the way, the CIA is involved with the Palestinians, too. It's just that the CIA supports Arafat, and Palestinians do not. The PLO is a CIA-supported, pseudo-government that doesn't care whether Palestinians have a homeland. You may be saying you're taking a neutral stance, but to underestimate the US's involvement in preventing the Palestinians from gaining a nation-state that they want (read: not PLO approved) is also wrong.

    But that's just my 2 cents.
  • by Ars-Fartsica ( 166957 ) on Wednesday September 12, 2001 @07:09PM (#2289289)
    I've got a bright idea.. don't try to take over another country and we won't come in a shoot at you.. Iraq clearly started that fight.

    Agreed. And the US was right to drive them back. But you did not protect freedom or democracy. Kuwait is a monarchist dictatorship. It is legal to hold foreig slaves in Kuwait. There Philipinos servants held in virtual bondage by their employers, with the consent of the Kuwaiti government.

    The woman who went to the UN to talk to the Assembly about her rape at the hands of Iraqi soldiers was in fact an ambassador's daughter who was not in Kuwait during the invasion.

    Note that the US has also, at other times in history, bankrolled and supported Iraq. And Iran. And Afghanistan. Every time it suited a justifiable foreign policy decision.


    How are we making anyone in the Middle East 'not free'?

    A good, if not somewhat naive, question. The US has interfered in Middle East politics for decades.

    • The US supported the corrupt regime of the Shah in Iran (so did the Brits).
    • The US supported the Afghan militias during the Soviet invasion. Osama bin Laden was trained under this support. The same people the US equipped, now rule Afghanistan.
    • The US has alternately supported and destabilized Iran and Iraq at various times.
    • The US has propped up the corrupt monarchies in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia.
    • ...and more

    I am not claiming that any of these acts were "wrong" - people need to get over the notion that nations act for "right" or "wrong" - these are simplistic notions for children. Nations act in their own interests, as the US did.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 12, 2001 @07:22PM (#2289354)
    See how you can't find out what the convicted's punishment is (so he or she can be tortured by CIA-trained Israelis).

    That is an insult. Calling the Mossad "CIA trained"? The Mossad has the best, most undetectable torture in the world that far EXCEEDS the torture capabilities of the CIA (anyone Israeli knows that). Also, crime in Israel is rarely pinned on Arabs, as Israeli-Arabs are not considered a threat.
  • by cvanaver ( 247568 ) on Wednesday September 12, 2001 @07:31PM (#2289414) as removed their normal fee for transactions in this case. Red Cross' web servers cannot handle the load that Amazon has already borne the brunt of. Their ( actions are noble and respectable. They are reaching out to the American people in this time of need by by donating their substantial infrastructure. We should not call their intentions into question, but be thankful that the resources are there to help us support those who have been afflicted by this horror. Now is not the time for petty grievances about spam and privacy. Now is the time when all of us should ban together and do what we can. Stand by your fellow Americans, whether they be private citizens, government entities or corporations. Now is not the time for dissent.
  • by Ridge ( 37884 ) on Wednesday September 12, 2001 @07:32PM (#2289420)
    At least not to where it passes my comment threshold, so I'll post a bit here.

    Someone posting in usenet newsgroup alt.prophecies.nostradamus some, well, seemingly informed messages, concerning the events of yesterday, these postings coming days in advance of the event, see this link: rt =20&hl=en&rnum=23&

    I'm sure the proper authorities are aware of this, as someone has posted they forwarded this information to said authorities.

    I don't want to comment on the typical traffic this particular newsgroup would see on a typical day outside of this tragedy, but these particular postings, while vague, do seem to be either somewhat informed or extremely cooincidental. It raises the question of how much could've been known or exposed via the internet before and after such events take place...
  • by _Bunny ( 90075 ) on Wednesday September 12, 2001 @07:40PM (#2289467) Homepage
    NASA has put some photos of the smoke plume on their website.

    They can be seen at []. Very interesting!
  • by gururise ( 263174 ) <gene.erayes@com> on Wednesday September 12, 2001 @08:28PM (#2289688) Homepage
    I've heard about several companies/people making donations and such to the Red Cross. I just wanted everyone to know that even the smaller companies are trying to help in any way they can.

    My employer is ERA Champion Realty, Inc. [], a Real Estate company based in Orange County, California with about three dozen employees.

    Our manager has committed to donating $500 for each home sale made during the next 60 days. Counting the sales we already have scheduled to close this month, we are close to the $5000 mark.

    Just wanted to let you all know that some of the smaller companies are pitching in too!

  • by NearlyHeadless ( 110901 ) on Wednesday September 12, 2001 @08:35PM (#2289722)
    Our "defense" industry is largely what caused this debacle -- the number one export for the United States is weapons. Think about that for a second -- we make more money selling weapons to the rest of the world than any other thing that we make.

    No, the US is the #1 exporter of arms, but arms sales are hardly our leading export. According to, arms deliveries from the US in 1999 were $18 billion (new contracts were $11 billion).

    By contrast, according to the latest Statistical Abstract [] (Table 1329), electrical machinery accounted for $75 billion dollars worth of exports, computers and office machinery, $40 billion, power generating machinery, $30 billion, etc. Total exports were about $960 billion, so arms sales are only about 2% of the total.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 12, 2001 @08:44PM (#2289749)
    I had a long talk this summer with a person that works at the FAA in their security division. To make a long story short, I was shocked about what I learned regarding airport checkpoints.

    1) The checkpoint are not run by the airports or the FAA, but instead are private companies contracted by the airlines.

    2) Pay is extremely poor at these checkpoints and in many airports these are the most unskilled and uneducated laborers.

    3) Turnover is extremely high at these checkpoints, which means that most of the workers there are perpetually "green" (i.e. novices).

    4) If a restaurant in the airport food court has an opening, that job is likely to be snatched up by a now "former" check point operator. Why? Because they see those fastfood jobs as a step up in the world.

    Overall, I got the impression that it would be extremely easy to sneak something through a checkpoint. We can talk about air marshalls, armoured cockpit doors, etc., but the truth is that yesterday 24 men managed to sneak 24 knives onto 4 different aircraft.

  • by TobyWong ( 168498 ) on Wednesday September 12, 2001 @08:48PM (#2289763)
    Sorry to say but a lot of those "angelic acts" had alterior motives. They helped rebuild japan to ensure a military staging point close to the western european front. For every legitimate gov't they helped support there are 3 more coups they engineered or illegitimate leaders they propped up.

    By lumping a pile of vastly different political situations in with what is certainly a tragedy, the author attempts to legitimize some very questinable acts. It's in poor taste to use this tragedy to push a political agenda.

  • by mmcdouga ( 459816 ) <mmcdouga@saMOSCO ... minus city> on Wednesday September 12, 2001 @09:02PM (#2289825) Homepage
    This was broadcast in 1973 after the US withdrew from Vietnam. Sinclair died in 1984.

    (The Europeans have started making decent planes since then.)

    More information is available here [].

    The original text is avaiable here [].

    For some reason, the email version (I received one too) omits the references to China, Israel, Egypt and Nicaragua, among others.

  • by deathcow ( 455995 ) on Wednesday September 12, 2001 @09:50PM (#2290014) c. html
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 12, 2001 @10:11PM (#2290091)
    Osama Bin Laden has been a key member of the official Afghan Taliban
    Government. Bin Laden has been serving as the Minister of Defense since Aug
    30. Bin Laden has been making money by running drugs (heroin) from Pakistan
    across Afghanistan.

    So that Taliban government is DIRECTLY involved since a key member of their
    government (Bin Laden). Also, Pakistan has been filling his coffers with
    drug money.

    ------------------Relevant Sources are listed below----------------------
    Bin Laden, a tool for Taliban, Thursday, 30 August 2001 23:07 (ET) 28 6
    "WASHINGTON, Aug. 30 (UPI) -- Recent media reports claim that Afghanistan's
    Taliban rulers have appointed suspected terrorist Osama bin Laden their
    defense minister."

    "Citing high-ranking Afghan sources, the Pakistani newspaper, Nation, has
    reported that the Taliban have appointed two international terrorists, Osama
    bin Laden and Juma Namangani, to lead military operations against the
    Northern Alliance"

    World: Taliban seeks friendship with U.S. ,July 31, 2001 10:22 a.m. EDT 38 3c.html
    "On Monday, the United Nations Security Council unanimously approved the use
    of U.N. monitors to help enforce sanctions against Afghanistan. The
    resolution calls for 15 experts to be sent to countries bordering
    Afghanistan - Pakistan, China, Iran Tajikistan, Turkmenistan and
    Uzbekistan - to ensure that weapons are not smuggled in to fuel its brutal
    civil war. The United Nations has accused Pakistan, one of only three
    countries to recognize the Taliban government, of sending weapons across the
    border. Pakistan denies the charge."

    Plot to assassinate Bush - reports, July 9, 2001 Posted: 9:23 AM EDT (1323
    GMT) a. binladen/
    MOSCOW, Russia -- Osama bin Laden has threatened to assassinate U.S.
    President George W. Bush at a G8 meeting in Italy, the head of Russia's
    Federal Bodyguard Service has said, according to reports

  • by uncadonna ( 85026 ) <mtobis AT gmail DOT com> on Wednesday September 12, 2001 @10:26PM (#2290159) Homepage Journal
    sigh, this is about 25 or 30 years old at this point. I think I first read it in the Nixon era.

    Gordon Sinclair [] died in 1984.

    The Tri-Star and DC10 airplanes mentioned as pinnacles of US technology date from 1968.

    This "recent" article is getting, ahem, a little tired.

    Obviously, regardless how the current situation was created, recent events pass any test of requiring a military response, a response neither of revenge nor of deterrence but of necessary and total elimination. This is nothing to be happy or enthusiastic about. It's like chemotherapy. It hurts the patient but if it kills the cancer, it's worth it.

    Spouting tired jingoism is neither helpful nor appropriate. Spouting jingoism that is *this* tired isn't particularly impressive either.

  • by darkonc ( 47285 ) <stephen_samuel @ b c g> on Wednesday September 12, 2001 @10:42PM (#2290214) Homepage Journal
    It's worth some meditation that after Oklahoma, some people were quick to hunt down any Muslim to vent their anger against -- but when it turned out to be McVeigh, they didn't even THINK about taking their anger out against the nearest Christian, or American, or Vet.

    I think it's because when painting with a wide brush threatens to paint ourselves, we're quicker to separate the extremists from the general population. Just like most Americans, Christians and Vets didn't agree with McVeigs actions (even those who agreed with his complaints), most Muslmims and palestinians disagree with the actions of the terrorists (even if they share the anger and/or pain).

    BTW: Islam has strict rules against the killing of non-combatants -- especially women and children. In that context, most Muslims are horrified that these kinds of attacks could take place in the name of their religion.

  • by Neil Rubin ( 11261 ) on Wednesday September 12, 2001 @10:48PM (#2290230)
    Not to protect the American civilians in the foreign country but to protect American interests in a geopolitical sense. Those bases were all over the world even before we had globalization as we know it. And before there were American bases all over the world there were European bases all over the world.

    This is an important point. Globalization is certainly not new. The amount of trade in material goods has not changed very significantly in the last century. It went down a lot during the wars, but otherwise has not changed that much. You doubt me? The effects of trade have been tremendous for centuries--slaves, weapons, gold, luxury items... For evidence that trade has been tremendously important for a long time, you need look no further than 1929 and the depression which spread through almost the entire world.

    What has changed, is the greatly increased importance of multinational corporations.

    Countries like Japan, Germany, Saudia Arabia and Taiwan have essentially no native army. The US protects those countries because they are allies. They are allies because the share US values. Even socialist-ic (not socialist!) countries like Sweden can share US values.

    Pardon me for being blunt, but your first sentence here is terribly ignorant. World defense budgets(1997, in USD billions):

    • 1. U.S. - 267.1
    • 2. Russia - 71.0
    • 3. France - 47.2
    • 4. Japan - 44.5
    • 5. Germany - 39.2
    • 6. China - 38.0
    • 7. United Kingdom - 33.5
    • 8. Italy - 23.8
    • 9. South Korea - 15.5
    • 10. Taiwan - 13.6
    • 13. Israel - 9.6
    World active troop strengths (1997, thousands)
    • 1. China - 2840
    • 2. U.S. - 1448
    • 3. Russia - 1240
    • 4. India - 1145
    • 16. France - 381
    • 17. Taiwan - 376
    • 18. Germany - 347
    • 24. Japan - 236
    • 26. United Kingdom - 214
    • 29. Israel - 175

    Source: World Almanac and Book of Facts 1999. These figures do not tell the whole story, but the overall picture is pretty clear. What would you say if I told you "Countries like the United Kingdom and Israel have essentially no native army."

    The geopolitical relationship is typically more important than the fiscal one. Japan and Germany were not great trading partners when the US set up bases there. The US would kick the asses of anyone who invaded Finland -- not because of Nokia but because they have the same values as America.

    All of these countries are also trading partners because the two tend to go hand in hand. And guess what: that's a good thing! People don't tend to go to war with their trading partners. Globalization prevents wars.

    This is a common claim, but it demonstrably false. Large-scale international trade did not stop two world wars. In fact, one could argue that the second world war in the pacific was largely caused by trade relationships. It was after the U.S. (then the largest oil producer) cut off exports to Japan that the Japanese decided they needed to take the oil fields of Malaya and Indonesia and that conflict with the U.S. was inevitable.

    Your argument reminds me of one from the New York Times Editorial writer Thomas Friedman--I think he called it the "Big Mac effect" or something. He pointed out that no two countries with McDonald's have ever gone to war. He then had to come up some way to explain away the McDonald's in Belgrade...

  • by Arandir ( 19206 ) on Wednesday September 12, 2001 @11:01PM (#2290274) Homepage Journal
    Cool! Quoting phrases out of context from an anti-islam site! Let me join in!

    On veils:

    that they should draw their veils over their bosoms, Surah 24:31. Note that the complete passage here says nothing about veils over the face, but does forbid dressing in a deliberately provocative manner. The previous verse also admonishes *men* to guard their modesty as well. I can find no references to veils needing to be worn over the face.

    On murder:

    nor kill (or destroy) yourselves: for verily Allah hath been to you Most Merciful! If any do that in rancour and injustice, soon shall We cast them into the fire: and easy it is for Allah., Surah 4:29-30.

    On foreigners:

    Serve Allah, and join not any partners with Him; and do good to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, those in need, neighbours who are near neighbours who are strangers, the companion by your side, the way-farer (ye meet) and what your right hands possess: for Allah loveth not the arrogant, the vainglorious., Surah 4:36

    And about your quotes: Immediately AFTER your first quote is written:

    But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is the One that Heareth and Knoweth (all things)., Surah 8:61.

    From context, your second quote clearly refers to those who have broken oaths: Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths and initiated the aggression, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!, Surah 9:11

    As for Islamic women, I lived next door to one that went out in public daily with normal everyday American clothing, and used a bikini when at the beach. Perhaps you are confusing religion with culture, because she was not arab or Persian, but Turkish.

    Don't get me wrong, I am not Islamic, and I have extreme opposition to it on theological grounds. But as a moral code it ranks among the best. One big problem with Islam, and which tends to cause extremism in some cases, is the deliberate joining of spiritual and secular authority. In other words, they do not believe in the separation of church and state.
  • by Leif_Bloomquist ( 311286 ) on Wednesday September 12, 2001 @11:08PM (#2290303) Homepage
    From somewhere on CNN []:

    The major television networks suspended competition, agreeing to share all footage gathered during the terrorist attacks and their aftermath, on suggestion of "60 Minutes" creator Don Hewitt.

    Well done.

  • by argonaut ( 37085 ) on Thursday September 13, 2001 @12:41AM (#2290579) Homepage Journal
    I stumbled across a site that has tons of detailed reports, research, and studies about Terrorism and Counterterrorism. Many may have see nthis already but a quick search turned up no hits within ./ so here it is. The Oklahoma City National Memorial Institute for the Prevention of Terrorism [] "is dedicated to preventing and reducing terrorism and mitigating its effects."

    It has many links tons of Articles related to terrorism from various sources, Fact Sheets from Governments, Journals, Terrorism-related journals and magazines published by the United States, State Department and various Institutes. Information describing the lessons learned from past incidents. Reports on Counterterrorism and related reports from governmental and non-governmental sources. And an image gallery. This is definitely worth checking out.

    Many are in HTML but most are in PDF foramt.

    A few that I found interesting include On Terrorism's Trail: How the FBI Unraveled the Africa Embassy Bombings [] and "Combating Terrorism: In Search of a National Strategy" [].

    The URL again is []
  • by arnwald ( 468380 ) on Thursday September 13, 2001 @04:54AM (#2291061) Homepage

    what happened in NY is a real tragedy, but it's not a reason to start spreading BS.

    Scuse me,

    I read in this 'Canadian' letter there were only American airplanes ??? Do you know that Airbus is a European airplane manufacturer that beats Boeing ?

    Great speech about Americans, just not very fact based.

    Oh, and you know that the foundation of space technology ( both US & Russia)is made by EUROPEANS (German guys after WO II) right ?

    Duh, another post that will be modded down, why do I bother ?
    Duh, I wont even post anonymously.
  • Re:horror and shame (Score:2, Informative)

    by xnuandax ( 312638 ) on Thursday September 13, 2001 @05:20AM (#2291126)
    Simplistic hippy talk.

    As somebody else has pointed out, the only Middle Eastern country in which Arabs vote for their leader is Israel. It's not like America covertly bombs women and children in various countries to amuse itself. Unfortunately for America they are one of the few countries that are courageous enough to take up the fight against countries that go bad.

    What is a country that goes bad? Try Germany in 1938. The rest of the world sat on its hands behind the infamous 'appeasement policy' until it was almost too late. Poor fk'ing America has to go in everytime some tinpot nation goes bad (try Serbia & Iraq in recent times), and then they suffer the terrorist attacks afterwards.

    Meanwhile the other pissant nations of the world stand around scratching themselves preaching the whole 'America is a bully' tripe. Very convenient.

    I'm an Australian btw. One of those who is keenly aware that it was the US that stepped up for us in the battle of the Coral Sea to head off the imminent invasion of Australia near the end of WWII.

    p.s. Israel, with all due respect, get the hell out of Palestine for God's sake. You're making things that much worse.

  • New satellite image (Score:2, Informative)

    by zardor ( 452852 ) on Thursday September 13, 2001 @05:30AM (#2291150)
    Here is an IKONOS satellite image [] of the disaster area. (from yahoo news)
    The image was taken on 11:43am EDT September 12.
  • by zardor ( 452852 ) on Thursday September 13, 2001 @05:37AM (#2291165)
    Check out thespaceimaging [] web site for more satellite images, including 'before' and 'after' [] pictures of the WTC and the pentagon.
  • by Syre ( 234917 ) on Thursday September 13, 2001 @06:27AM (#2291249)

    The New York Times
    9/11 Neediest Fund

    The New York Times 9/11 Neediest Fund is a one-month campaign established to collect contributions to relieve the suffering of families struck by death or injury in the World Trade Center calamity, both civilians and rescue workers.

    The campaign is being managed by The New York Times Co. Neediest Cases Fund, which will, as with the annual Neediest Cases campaign, cover all administrative costs.

    Contributions will be accepted through October 11 and then be allocated to the seven social service agencies which disburse funds in the annual Neediest Cases campaign, plus three foundations representing the uniform services. These are the Fire Safety Foundation, the Police Foundation, and the John Jay College of Criminal Justice Foundation, on behalf of Port Authority, Sanitation, and other agencies.

    You can contribute online: y=neediest911 []

    Donations can also be sent to:

    The New York Times 9/11 Neediest Fund
    P.O. Box 5193
    General Post Office
    New York, NY 10087

  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 13, 2001 @07:24AM (#2291333)
    This story [] says: SEATTLE (Reuters) - Microsoft Corp. (Nasdaq:MSFT - news) said on Thursday it is giving $5 million in cash and $5 million in software and services to help relief groups and government agencies deal with the devastating attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon (news - web sites). The cash would go to the September 11 Fund set up by the United Way of New York and The New York Community Trust, Microsoft President Rick Belluzzo told employees in a memo made available to Reuters. The twin towers of the World Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon -- the U.S. military command center -- were hit by hijacked commercial airliners on Tuesday, leaving thousands of people believed dead. Microsoft, which makes the Windows computer operating system, also encouraged its 44,000 employees to make personal donations, for which the software giant would make matching donations of up to $12,000 per year, Belluzzo said. The Redmond, Washington-based company was also working with local blood banks to organize a campus blood drive soon, he said. Microsoft was assembling response teams to help customers in New York and at the Pentagon rebuild their computer networks, Belluzzo said. With a cash pile of about $31 billion, Microsoft is one of the richest corporations in the world. It donates tens of millions of dollars in cash, software and services each year to help charities and nonprofit and relief organizations

To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing. -- Elbert Hubbard