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The Internet

EU Ministers Approve ".eu" Top-Level Domain 112

Kooki Monster writes: "The Council of Ministers unanimously approved on Wednesday the European Commission's proposition to create a ".eu" domain name. European institutions as well as private users and corporations should benefit from the new domain, as it is expected to improve the Internet's image and commercial infrastructure in Europe. Its organisation will be managed either by a non-profit institution, a private company, or an existing public administration." Note the reference to "rules recommended by the World Organisation for Intellectual Property" -- probably no hope of squatting in dot-eu.
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EU Ministers Approve ".eu" Top-Level Domain

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  • "Its organisation will be managed either by a non-profit institution, a private company, or an existing public administration."

    One of the better non-statements I've seen here on Slashdot.

  • gee-whiz! i am sure they needed a big comittee for this and will work on rules and regulations for the next ten years.

    what is the -bleep- point of the TLDs anyways? why can't we have -really_bad_word- arbitrary TLDs? because... then all the -dont_call_them_that- companies who paid lots of money for their bank.com domains look even -filthy_word- than today? or because horrible people will register .-expletive- domains? -slang_for_coital_activity- that -metabolic_result-!

    fuck you, lameness filter!
  • Simply put: this .eu appears to be the equivalent of .us I don't think .eu should be used for commerce as it says, and we all know .us isn't

    "spare the lachrymosity when the fulminations have inveighed"
  • ... since "eu", in portuguese, means "I". :-)
  • I for once feel a need to register the following as top level domains: "rom" and "mir". At last will I be able to create electronic sites under my own TLD, I think they will become quite popular with general public and known for their unique presentation style of Natalie Portman.
  • They called their currency the Euro. Then they named the an expensive fighter plane the Eurofighter. I suggest that the US name their next plane the DollarKiller or the CashBuster.
  • I heard somewhere that uk wasn't an ISO two letter code though. Great Britain should have .gb This apparently makes gb/uk the only country to break IANA rules (until now).
  • You're right -- imagine if there was a .rox or .bom.. anything that sounds simple and strong will be successful.
  • For example, .dot.
    Imagine:
    • Sun could take all domain names in it, because they are the dot and all
    • http://Slashdot.dot/ would be even more awkward
    • dot.com's would become com.dots.
    • etc...
  • by Yardley ( 135408 ) on Wednesday May 10, 2000 @09:07PM (#1079893) Homepage
    The problem is that Network Solutions was (and still is) a private (only) for-profit company. They sought to relax all the requirements between org, com, & net tld's and then *sold* as many of them as they could. Instead of the domain naming system acting to help people find or create things on the Internet, we have the majority of domain names going unused, having been secured by individuals and companies hoping to profit just as NSI did with their original sale. (And NSI gets yearly rent.) It is very unfortunate that the company put in charge of domain name registration many years ago was a profit-driven company. Somebody pocketed a lot of money for that to have happended.

    It has been a little over a year ago since registrar competition was introduced. But it is much too late to fix this system. The whole thing should be scrapped and new domains should be given out much like vanity license plates -- you can't sell yours to another: if you don't want it or use it, it goes back to the state to be reused. And NSI should have nothing to do with it.
  • by chrisvdb ( 149510 ) on Wednesday May 10, 2000 @10:16PM (#1079894) Homepage
    Yes! We really need this TLD! Maybe it is different for non-european people. But for us it is much easier to trust a .be/.nl/... (or other european domain) e-commerce site, than a .com site that could be anywhere in the world where our justice system doesn't reach. But for a somebody with a good idea, it is a tedious and expensive business to go out and buy all European country domains. It is also impossible as for example a .be domain can only be purchased by Belgian people who own their own business. A .eu domain could change this, and I think this is very important. An important concern is the manner in which those new domain names will be assigned. Anybody with a good proposal? Chris. http://www.vandenberghe.org ---- 24 hours in a day...24 beers in a case...coincidence?
  • no.

    In fact, to keep things more intuitive and descriptive, one would need to do:

    something.uk.eu, giving rise to unneeded extraneous data '.eu'.

    It's nice though... but that's what apeals to politicians.

    :)
  • by Colin Smith ( 2679 ) on Wednesday May 10, 2000 @10:20PM (#1079896)

    I've said it before and I'll say it again. The DNS is not being used appropriately.

    It's a heirarchical system that has been abused by the registrars to the point where it's effectively a flat naming system; *.com.

    End users should not have access to domains above 3rd or 4th level. First, second and maybe even the third level domains should be reserved exclusively for domain administration purposes. Think of it as a filing system. Would you allow users to randomly create directories off root or /usr or even /home? No. You administer that heirarchy and create areas where users can create and access information.

    The DNS needs to be re-organised or even just organised. ICANN and the registrars should design the heirarchy rather than completely abdicating responsibility and allowing chaos to ensue.

    A properly designed heirarchy would allow everyone to have their place without all this domain squatting and trademark infringement bullshit.

    The new TLDs and the .eu TLD will simply cause more chaos. They will not solve anything. Do you really think that the IBMs, Microsofts and Apples of this world will not simply register their name in every existing TLD? They can and will.

  • Well, acctualy "European Currency Unit" was just made up by the French in order to get the ECU name into non-french ppl's "hearts". Ecu is an old, even very old, French currency, and someone there simply thought it would be nice of them to influence EU with a bit of French class.

  • I will personally object to the creation of this TLD. IANA's rules state quite categorically that only country codes which are present in ISO 3166 will be considered for delegation.

    The EU is not a country. EU is not in ISO 3166. Indeed, EU could never be put in ISO 3166 under the current rules [www.din.de].

    If the EU was able to get a country code despite not being a country, it could potentially set a precedent which would allow the creation of a very large number of new TLDs "by the back door".

  • I just wait for EU to self destruct. It will take a lot of time and cost us money but can't wait :-)

    My feelings are the same. While I feel that we must be in the EU at the moment and that ultimately, there will be Europe (and maybe one day global) wide unification, I think that the current administration is leading us on a road to hell, increasing hatred and mistrust between its member nations rather than promoting harmony and unity. The way I see it, there's going to be a lot of bloodshed and the administration wil collapse into the rubble and then hopefully, a truly collaborative partnership can be realised which doesn't incorporate all the corruption, backstabbing and politicking that the body which is the current EU stands for.

    Rich

  • sigh - a lot of large corporates do this.

    They see .com as showing off their multi-national empire.

    Personally I love to see the .au,.uk or whatever as it shows a pride in their country of origin, and think .com (or whatever) makes the company seem uninterested in its heritage.
  • a quote from the ISO 3166 page [www.din.de]:

    The name European Union is not officially listed in ISO 3166-1 because the standard contains codes of names of countries and not names of groupings of countries or names of organizations.
    However, the ISO 3166 Maintenance Agency advises all users of the ISO 3166-1 Alpha-2 code to apply the code element EU if they need to represent the name European Union.


    ICANN is just a user of ISO 3166 and can decide to use the EU code.

    Benno
  • "worldwide TLDs (and yes, they are WORLDWIDE, NOT AMERICAN TLDs..."

    They're american tlds, which we let you use. You have the option of using your country code, whereas in the US that's a more difficult process.

    Of course, you don't WANT to use your country code, due to a combination of being too lazy and wanting to ride on the prestige of the US naming convention. The same combination of laziness and sheep-like following of American ideas that resulted in us inventing all of this instead of you, ironically.

  • I have to agree with you even though I normally hate seeing ALL CAPS REPLIES. Mind you, all lowercase, a la ee cummings, can be pretty annoying too although it seems to be more in the domain of little girls and i's dotted with hearts.

    I would suggest, if anyone would listen, that you propose changing the lameness filter to apply only to anonymous posts. That way OOG_THE_CAVEMAN could continue to provide us with his insightful comments here at slashdot.

    Censorship is bad enough when applied by people. But when it is applied with machines it is just plain bad ... IT'S LIKE 1984 MAN!

    sort of

  • The DNS heirarchy is total anarchy at the moment. Someone needs to put a little thought into a structure which will meet future needs.

    A flat .com, .net, .org (and all the new ones that'll appear soon) simply will no longer do.
  • I can't blame the US for assuming the .com etc. TLD's. It a bit like England and postage stamps - from what I'm aware, England is the only country that doesn't put the name of the country on the stamp itself - but they invented them as we know it, so why did they need to originally?
    This is the same as the US and the most commonly known TLD's. The US came up with the whole idea in the first place....
  • I have a US domain name. You know how much I paid to register it three years ago? $10. You know how much I've paid since then? Zilch. Nothing.

    Not bad. I'm paying $10 a year for my nice TLD. OpenSRS [opensrs.org] rocks!

    I think the only conclusion that can be made is that the whole naming system is totally screwed and there really isn't any way to fix it. Everyone wants IPv6 and that will take years (if not decades) to complete. Not everyone will want a new naming system (in fact quite a few people won't): you think that anyone will be able to fix it anytime this century?
  • The .int (international) TLD is so secret that you can't even find out the rules and requirements or see an application form to even apply for a domain in the .int TLD.

    Don't believe me? Check out their registrar site http://www.nic.int/ [nic.int]

    That's right. Even the root page on the registrars web site requires a mysterious password. And cypherpunks/cypherpunks does not work.

    I guess they think they're 5UP3R 31337, eh?

  • I have to say I'm disappointed that there will be an .eu domain, for no other reason than that I've been a webmaster for 6 1/2 years and one of my favorite things has been to look at the stats generated each month and checking out what new countries have hit my sites.

    Think of it like techno stamp collecting.

    But if some country I haven't received hits from only has sites in the .eu domain there won't likely be a way to figure this out (although I think I have all of Europe at this point).

  • And it's less filling!


    --

  • Telstra wants to be part of the "eRevolution" and decided to drop the .au off of telstra.com.au (or bigpond.com.au) and wants everyone to ignore the fact that its Australian. telstra.com? Bleh.
  • pico.de/gallo
  • The WIPO's FAQ about ICANN and domain name arbitration can be found here [wipo.int].
    Do a search on 'ICANN'. Sorry for not including the final link, but they use frames.
  • Wouldn't they insist on the .ue suffix, since the union's name in French must be Union Europeane (sp?) or something like that? Or have they finally come to their senses? No, that can't be true...
  • I have made it my quest to get 31337.int. Then I will be truly cool.
  • The *.com namespace could be a little less crowded if three U.S. states were to open up domains to outsiders. If the State of Colorado opened up its domain registration process, we'd have *.co.us like the Brits have *.co.uk. Then get Oregon to do it, and nonprofits (*.or.us) can jump in. ISPs can come in on Nebraska's domain (*.ne.us).
  • by Anonymous Coward
    http://www.iana.org/cctld/cctld.htm

    The codes IANA uses are two-letter codes from the ISO 3166 standard. IANA is not in the business of deciding what is and what is not a country, nor what code letters are appropriate for a particular country.

    .eu could set some interesting precidents.
  • .com IS a country.
    "In money we trust".
    "You can't make 'unfounded' accusations against a company. If we say you did it, you must present evidence as to otherwise yourself. You're considered guilty until proven not to."
    'Work of an employee is company's property (as is the employee btw.)
    etc...
  • by Monty Worm ( 7264 ) on Wednesday May 10, 2000 @07:33PM (#1079919) Journal
    Do we really need another TLD? How much are they going to charge for them anyway?

    When Tuvalu sold off .tv , one of my bosses asked for us to get a domain in that space (id.tv), where it matched one of our trademarks (idtv, a local digital television service).
    We were told: auction, starting at us$10k. Sorry, no. Not interested.

    Adding a TLD is a good money-spinner, but it doesn't make much sense: getting the existing space re-organised (yes, I know, painful idea) would be so much more beneficial IMHO

  • Everybody knows the big US domains (.com, .org, .net, .edu, .gov).

    Boy now weren't most of those international domains? For your info, the US top domain is.... (drumroll please) .us! The fact that almost noone uses it makes .com a US domain just as much as the fact that .se is hardly used by swedish companies makes .com a swedish domain.

  • I believe the main intent behind the .eu domian is to provide a seperate identity for European companies rather than to eliminate domain squatting. Currently .com is generally reagarded as a US origin (over .US which is difficult to use). But a European company (that operates accross all of the EU) will not want to have to register seperate .fr, .de, .uk to establish their Euro identity.

    The company I am working with uses the messy fix of .com for the US sites and .one.com for European sites.


    -----------------------------

  • They were never intended to "help people locate sites". They were intended to be a convenient name for a physical machine somewhere out there.
  • Everybody knows the big US domains (.com, .org, .net, .edu, .gov)

    US domains?????????? I don't think so

    Jeroen

  • I AGREE, OOG. Will BLOW SOME KARMA to SHOW MY SUPPORT. I also do not think OOG is a troll. (An all bold filter would be much more useful.) Caps are like yelling, but THEY ARE NOT. They are caps. Easily moderated down if the content is not liked. I can understand the 70 second rule, but this is ridiculous. I've recommended this before, but a fractional point system where each moderator gets about 25 one-fifth Troll points to apply would solve much of Trolling. Five people with moderation would have to agree a post is a Troll. Then it would get moderated down 1 point. Easy cake. Filtering of what gets posted is simple censorship. I thought that was what moderation was suppose to avoid -- censorship. :(

  • That's the fscking problem with nationalism. We should have only one domain .earth

    All well and good and I believe this was recently considered at the secret illuminati meeting for which the recent WTO conference in Seattle was just a cover. It was rejected on the grounds of the confusion and cost to corporations that would ensue. However, a functionally equivalent alternative was decided on.

    Welcome to the planet "com"

    Rich

  • They were never intended to "help people locate sites". They were intended to be a convenient name for a physical machine somewhere out there.

    Exactly. They're more like street addresses. True, a few companies can manage "Canda House" or even (as here in Basingstoke) "Wella Rd" but generally, most will have to settle for "29 Generic St" or suchlike. If you want to find a company, you go to a directory. Problem is, there is no standard directory on the web (Yahoo comes close) and for actually finding things, search engines are somewhat hit or miss. I don't have any answers but some kind of non-hierarchical, distributed system is needed but with the way browsers work, it would mean rewriting gethostbyname for every OS out there.

    Rich

  • We got our own domain folks! We must be important! Perhaps the Euro will stop heading for the basement now.
  • I have a US domain name. You know how much I paid to register it three years ago? $10. You know how much I've paid since then? Zilch. Nothing.

    Were it not for those profiteering bastards at NSI, people would have used the .US domain, and we wouldn't have this whole damn domain name squatting controversy. Say I owned a store with a terribly cliched name -- let's make it the "New Leaf Bookstore." And we'll say I'm in Olympia, Washington. I'm www.newleaf.olympia.wa.us. Say there's a totally unrelated New Leaf bookstore in Tacoma. They're www.newleaf.tacoma.wa.us. How hard is that? You gotta remember a city instead of a com, org, or net. Then apply the related state and dot-us. That would SEVERELY cut down on the quibbling. Sure, there would still be a problem between me and the guy who owns the new leaf health store in Olympia, but that's a hell of a lot less of a problem than every New Leaf bookstore, health store, grain refinery and horticulture joint fighting over newleaf.com (out of curiosity, I looked it up -- turns out to be a "community market").

    Remember fraud and misrepresentation laws still apply -- someone couldn't register newleaf.lubbock.tx.us and claim to be me. More over, squatting wouldn't be profitable because A) lubbock obviously isn't me and B) They'd have to buy thousands of domain names, not just three.

    Moreover, the entire co-op way the US domain is put together should appeal to the hacker ethic -- there's no giant corporation holding all the strings, each region (i.e. olympia) is done by someone in the community who elected to do it. Like I said, I paid a one-time ten buck fee, but I'm in LA (california) -- lots of regions don't charge a dime. The workload is distributed.

    But no, big money prevailed over reason, prices were inflated and service dissipated.

    I urge you all to at least LOOK at the .us system and understand its beauty before you run off and buy a shiny new dot-com. Pisses me off when sites bounce my email address as "not a valid email address" 'cos the dumbass site admin has never heard of .us.

    Whew! Bitterness vented. I thank you.

  • Unless, of course, you live in a certain northern member country in which the directives are taken as the word of God by the administration.

    Yeah, those damn Dutch! Oh! you mean the English.

    Yes, Prime Minister put it something like this:

    "The Germans love it, the French ignore it, the Spanish and Italians are too chaotic to enforce it" (This isn't an exact quote. They managed to include all the European countries)
  • Duh! What about mil, edu, gov, com, .....

    AFAIK, some European regions have also asked for a TLD. Why not? And who really cares!

  • But has anybody found a .nato address?

    There shouldn't be any; .nato was a TLD formed on the whim of one Mark Pullen at DARPA, before nato.int was sorted out. No subdomains were allocated and it should have died out by now.

    http://www.netplanet.org/i-files/file 001.html [netplanet.org] (German)

    Here's hoping the .eu registers enforce some kind of rule to stop all the domains being instantly sold to the foul parasitic domain brokers that have so royally fucked up the existing namespace, charging stupid prices for what was once a public good.


    --
    This comment was brought to you by And Clover.
  • What about .mil, .edu, .gov and .com? They are not ccTLDs. Go read the IANA pages and come back when you have a clue.
  • I currently abuse the moderation system as much as possible. I do it because I can and it'll hasten the change to an improved system.

    Problem: Too many moderators with too many points.

    It's far too easy to become a moderator at the moment.
  • The high value of the british currency is already creating a lot of problems for england.

    shouldn't that be Britain ? Besides, sterling is not currently overvalued, check it;s value against the dollar or the yen and it's fine - it's only overvalued against the euro because the euro is going down faster than an intern on bill clinton. That said it seems to have caught itself now so maybe it'll go up again.

    rover crisis would not be as dangerous as it is

    Personally I don't see the loss of a car manufacturer that has demonstrated over the years a stunning ability to make cars that people don't want and another ability to not make any profit whatsoever as a particularly bad thing.

    True, the ecu is underrated at the moment

    Underrated ? it's simply a weak currency cause they let any old dodgy economy join and then don't have control over tax rates and cash relief over those economies. Until they reorganise the EU along lines of a single monetary source and single controlling authority it'll never work - and that'll be a long time in coming because of the nationalistic aspects to iron out.

    J

  • I agree completely that the current DNS system is a total mess. However, no matter how bad it is, it's too late to be changed, because its use is entrenced too deeply by now. The only hope is that a completely new system running parallel to the old one will be invented that is good enough to eventually replace the onld one in direct competition. But I wouldn't hold my breath...
  • Actualy I doubt ICANN would aprove this domain (or rather in order to do so they would have to break their own guidelines)

    In short the 2 letter domain has to appear in ISO 3166-1 [www.din.de], which is in turn based on the UN Statistical servises lists. eu does not appear as a 'country or teritory' in either.

    Have a look at their report on asigning the .pl [icann.org] TLD to Palestine

  • by holzp ( 87423 ) on Wednesday May 10, 2000 @06:52PM (#1079937)
    think of all the .edu or .eu confusion!
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 10, 2000 @06:47PM (#1079938)
    fuck.eu
  • by titus-g ( 38578 ) on Wednesday May 10, 2000 @06:52PM (#1079939) Homepage
    can just see all the companies rushing to be known as [company] dot ewwwww

    would .com be so popular if it didn't sound like it does?

  • It seems to me that lots of people, presumably mostly Americans, have problems understanding why the .eu domain is needed.

    But imagine that every US state had its own TLD with no common TLD; then you'd have www.microsoft.wa, www.redhat.nc (or is that www.redhat.sc?), www.nytimes.ny, and so on. It'd be completely messy -- you would have to remember for every company where it's based, and companies based in several states would have to settle on one TLD as the primary one.

    That's how it is in Europe: It a common market, so it's becoming increasingly irrelevant where a company or organisation is based, and very often there simply is no good choice -- hence the European Union has to use .eu.int, and most companies prefer .com domains.

    For large monolithic states like the USA, India, the European Union, or China, country codes may make some sense, but I really think that it would be better to abolish this country-based system.

    If you really want to distinguish between geographic entities, it can easily be done as e.g. eu.redhat.com vs. us.redhat.com or eu.parl.gov vs. us.parl.gov vs. zh.parl.gov.

  • by Zen ( 8377 )
    Heh. Looks like Katz's annoying ' == ? script got applied to Timothy by mistake. I'm gonna get my Squadron of Psycho Midgets to go fix it now.
  • by Anonymous Coward
    I thought the .eu will be parallel to .uk and others. It's a new TLD, not a replacement.

    So something.uk will exist, whereas you could also have something.eu for more international needs.
  • ECU was already the name of a pseudo-currency that contained most European currencies (including UKP for example).

    The Euro is a new, single currency, that effectively replaced this old non-currency, so a new name was needed.

    So, by pushing the name ECU in the first place for the old "currency", they actually lost it when the Euro replaced it.

  • I'm sure that they are thinking - 'lets give the companies an alternative TLD to use'. Unfortunately, if I was a EU company, I would still register the .com, .net and .org TLDs anyway, so this doesn't really reduce domain squatting at all does it?

    I guess they could prevent it in the EU TLD by imposing crazy rules to actually register a domain, like here in Hong Kong, myself as an individial, I can't even register a domain, .com needs a business license, .net an ISP license, and .org a non-profit organisation license. So I really had no choice but to register on the .org TLD for my own use...

    I thinking the same thing is going to happen with this EU TLD from the looks of it. Maybe the EU TLD will be 'cleaner' in the sense that so many people won't squat in it, but by no stretch of the imagination is it going to improve the situation with the worldwide TLDs (and yes, they are WORLDWIDE, NOT AMERICAN TLDs...which so many people seem confuse them for).
  • I strongly disagree with having a lameness filter. The notion of pre-judging a comment based on the ratio of capital to lower-case letters is just an excess restriction we don't need. A moderation system is in place, and although it is biased because it is based upon input of humans(the moderators on $3 crack don't help either) it at least isn't the total knee-jerk reaction of machine moderation. If any of the last few stories is any indication of the result on the amount of trolls, I would have to say it is increasing the troll posts, not decreasing. this is as offtopic as it gets, but i know it is blocking the poster who i find gives the most insightful commentaries in /. threads, OOG_THE_CAVEMAN, and since this system has made him uncapable of speaking up for himself without changing the very nature of his posts. please, cast your vote for OOG and mail rob about getting this bug fixed.
  • There are those of us suffering under the naming system invented by a totalitarian regime that is more interested in stifling innovation than in allowing "reasonble" access to the domain. Getting anything registered on the .ca domain is a fruitless exercise to the point where anybody not directly related to gov't usually gives up and gets a .com or .org domain. -AD
  • There is a country code for the United States. It's .us
  • Just a thought, since they're breaking it up and the Europeans don't like them ...

    It's not like anyone's using it, after all.

  • The new TLDs and the .eu TLD will simply cause more chaos. They will not solve anything. Do you really think that the IBMs, Microsofts and Apples of this world will not simply register their name in every existing TLD? They can and will.

    They can, and they will, and they are expected to... What solve is it you are looking for? The solve they intend, and will probably achieve is for the dumb end user who can't figure out what to type at the end of a name, the hope was it would become easier for him, since all he has to remember is that he lieves in the EU and that his internet address ends with EU - simple for him...if they register their names.

    --
  • No, that's just our politicians!

    j.

  • I don't mean to be a troll but isn't this up to ICANN (The Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers) [icann.org]?

    To quote their about page [icann.org]:

    The Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (ICANN) is the non-profit corporation that was formed to assume responsibility for the IP address space allocation, protocol parameter assignment, domain name system management, and root server system management functions previously performed under U.S. Government contract by IANA and other entities.

    I'm all for people/countries agreeing (including the EU folks) but as I understand it without ICANN [icann.org] or maybe IANA [iana.org] playing along, this doesn't mean much.

    Yes, I'm aware that the article says:

    The domain name itself will be
    protected by the ICANN rules recommended by the World Organisation for Intellectual Property.
    but that says nothing about ICANN [icann.org] supporting this decision. It just says they are going to uses the guidelines that ICANN [icann.org] reccomend.

    I don't mean to piss anyone off but as I understand it, the internet is still largely American due to it's roots in ARPA and that most "authorities" on the internet are American.


    Citrix

  • Is it possible to register a .us domain??
  • think of all the .edu or .eu confusion!

    Yeah.. but that already exists:

    .com, .cm (Cameroon), .co (Colombia)
    .net, .ne (Niger)
    .mil, .ml (Mali)

  • I prefer fuck.mil, fuck.gov and fuck.edu. Oh, and Fuck-yankees.com is not registered.

    Somebody has their panties in a twist. I believe the original poster was making light of the phonetic resemblance of "eu" to "you", especially in certain accents.

  • Is it possible to register a .us domain?

    I hear it is only possible to register .us domains in a wierd regional scheme. So a school in Los Angeles, California would be: something.k12.la.ca.us Which is pretty horrible. Otherwise I would register help.us, or pay.us, or lick.us.

  • No, .com and .firm aren't countries. That's why they don't have country-code TLDs. They are so-called "generic TLDs" which are not associated with a geographic area. .eu, on the other hand, would have to be geographic (Europe being a continent and all).

    It's really quite simple. There are two ways a new domain can be added. Either because it's a generic TLD open to anyone (which EU wouldn't be) or because it's an ISO-3166 country code which hasn't been delegated. Which EU isn't.

    The point is that under the current rules there is no avenue by which .eu could be delegated.

  • Keep in mind, in German, it'll be dot-Oi!, which kinda does have that short-strong combination. Not to mention it could become a favorite of German punks and ska-heads.

    "If I removed everything here that I thought was pointless, there would be like two messages here."

  • Boy now weren't most of those international domains?

    Interesting question. From back in the day, I thought that they were all US only. (And it's pretty believable that the US would have an ego like that, isn't it?) But RFC1591 [isi.edu] and IANA [iana.org] seem to agree with you. .com, .org, and .net are all intented to be international in nature.

    To save you a click, IANA says:

    • GOV = US only
    • EDU = US only
    • MIL = US only
    • COM = anybody
    • NET = anybody
    • ORG = anybody
    • INT = organizations established by international treaties between governments

    But you can find plenty [thrall.org] of [njit.edu] people [njit.edu] that state or imply that .com is for US commercial interests, so I don't feel too bad for being confused.

    Oh well. I'm going to try to get myself registered as a .int [iana.org] just for the hell of it.

  • I'd better go register linux.eu . No more of the problems we got into when http://www.linux.nl was suddenly registered by a company.
  • Jesus, I didn't know .int was a valid TLD anymore -- I'd never even seen it mentioned except in reference material from years back. Yet there it is. Oddly, almost all of the .int's that google found were European, including eu.int.

    Well, I guess you learn something new every day.

    -jcl

  • Re: How can they add .eu if Europe is not a country?

    ICANN doesn't necessarily allocate TLDs only by country. Many territories of countries get one too: step forward Jersey, Guernsey, CoCos Islands, etc.

    ICANN, who say they are not in the business of determining what is or is not a country, gets its two-letter TLD names from the INTERNATIONAL STANDARDS ORGANIZATION 3166 group.

    They have agreed that Europe gets its own TLD. ICANN merely has to ratify it. http://www.din.de/gremien/nas/nabd/iso3166ma/new02 _00.html

  • .eu means European Union, not Europe. It would not cover those countries in Europe that aren't in the Union, so it can't be considered geographic.

    What ccTLD would you suggest for the EU parliament? .eu.com? .eu.org? It just looks messy. .gov.eu makes a lot more sense.
  • It is true that the EU is not a country, but if I remember correctly, ISO 3166 lists 'territories', not 'countries'. One of the articles on the cited page says that:

    The new domain has to be approved by the International Organisation for Standardisation (ISO) and added to the list of established country codes. ISO has reserved it for Europe but still there is no clear-cut answer.

    Looks to me like they are still making up their minds... :-)

    This quasi-country-code issue also features in the choice of EUR as the three-letter abbreviation for the euro. The currency TLAs are usually formed from a territory code plus a letter (so 'pounds sterling' is abbreviated 'GBP'). It follows that 'EUR' also implies a territory called 'EU'.

  • But you can find plenty of people that state or imply that .com is for US commercial interests.

    Yep, not surprising since USofAers are unlikely to visit non-US .com sites. However, down here in France everybody, and especially companies wants a .com domain rather than a .fr one, possibly because it sounds more "professional". There's also the fact that if you simply type "foo", most browsers will try to reach "www.foo.com" but not "www.foo.fr". I guess it's the same in other countries, and so we have that stupid *.com flat hierarchy
  • You are mostly right about EU not being a country at all. It's only a union of independent countries. But those states are willing to create tight form of co-operation. According to Schengen declaration, you can drive across EU without being stopped at any border, except the outermost one (between EU member and another country). There is free trade (with some exceptions, too). And, not to forget, currency union.

    I think EU is moving towards creating "a state of states" with political and economical power. Think about elections in Austria a bit - EU had pushed down the leader of FPO by political and economical attacks to whole Austria. But Austria isn't the topic now.

    That's why I think the .eu domain would be good for companies operating across whole Europe (Union).

    BTW. What about "Russia"? It isn't one state, it's group of states having one president and a cross-republic parliament... Those states have their own domains. Russia (the most-known state of them) has .ru. The whole group had .su domain, now the .su-NIC is .ru-NIC [ripn.net]. .ru is domain available for every state in Russia (the group of states) and another states have their own (.tj, .tm) plus .ru. Strange, isn't it?

  • 1) Countries in the European Union are not that different from states in the USA. Are you up-to-date on recent developments of the EU?

    2) Commerce is not everything, but it is important for European dot-com companies. But anyhow, my arguments apply just as well for organisations, universities etc.

  • Okay. So they've run out of .coms. Easy answer: set up a new top level domain.

    Nope. Sorry, it won't work.
    The trouble here is that all those companies with .com or .co.uk or .de addresses already will simply buy the equivalent .eu address as well. Once the initial buying boom has settled, all the same names will be taken by the same companies for the same sites. The only difference will be that all the DNS servers around the world will need an upgrade.

    The solution is not to set up more and more geographical domains. Consider: The only people who really want those (rather than .com) are organisations which are geographically fixed, but the internet's biggest asset is the way it breaks down geographical boundaries.

    The solution is to have type-based domains, rather than locality-based. We already see this with .org, and such. The newly liberated .tv would have been another good step in the right direction if they hadn't gotten greedy (although I think your average tv company can afford it). Now we need things like .fun, .shop, .news, and so on.
  • If it doesn't cover some countries in the area, that's evidence that it is geographic.

    Ah, but not in any simple, "this patch of land here" sort of way. There are "isolated" countries that are members of the EU (ie member countries that do not share a border with any other member countries).

    Note that I'm neither for nor against this new TLD. Personally, I think the entire system needs a good rethink and overhaul. However, with the system as it is, it's only really fair enough that the EU gets a TLD of it's own. Otherwise, it would kind of be like each individual US state having a TLD, while the US itself did not.

    Cheers,

    Tim
  • They're american tlds, which we let you use.

    No, they're not american TLDs. Where does it say so?
    Remember the name Internet. .org, for example, was created mainly for non-profit organizations, but not just for the US to use. These TLDs were made generic. If they were just for the US, they would have been like .org.us or something like that.

    Granted, these TLDs were used when the Internet was just a thing in the US, and before the system with two-letter country TLDs became widely used. That doesn't mean that their use still is, or should be, restricted to the US. Quite the contrary. They're country-generic.

    You have the option of using your country code, whereas in the US that's a more difficult process. Of course, you don't WANT to use your country code, due to a combination of being too lazy and wanting to ride on the prestige of the US naming convention.

    Whooa. Hold your horses. If this is what you believe, I'm really scared.
    First of all, using a country TLD is a really painful process in many countries. Companies in the UK are, for example, forced to use .co.uk. mycompany.co.uk doesn't sound as good as mycompany.com, does it?

    I'll continue with the Swedish domain name system, as it is the one which I am most familiar with. In my opinion it's one of the mot brain-dead systems too.

    Here are the rules:

    • Swedish companies and organizations are allowed to register directly under .se, but only with a domain name that is identical to the officially registered company name. Just one domain name per company, too. If you have a virtually unknown company name, but a product with a famous brand name, you're lost, as you're not allowed to register the brand name.
    • You're also lost if your small, private company or organization doesn't have a nation-wide registration, as you won't be able to get a domain name directly under .se. These entities must get a domain name with a one-letter code in, denoting the region. These letters are a-z. So you might have to register your sports club or local LUG under for example ourlug.z.se. Given that this still requires an official local organization registration, and that most Swedish don't even know these local one-letter region codes, this is a really bad idea. Your visitors might not know that your domain is not under .se but under a local region code, and even then, they might not know which one of a-z.
    • Ordinary people are only allowed to register under .pp.se. This is the only domain name registration that doesn't require an officially registrered entity with that name. You can register whateveryouwant.pp.se, but of course this .pp.se ending sucks.
    Add to this that domain name registrations under .se are waaay more expensive than under .com, .net and .org. Not to speak of that you have to register a company (with your wanted domain name as company name) for ten thousands of dollars just to ensure that you can get a .se domain name with the domain name you want.

    So no, it's not laziness that makes people register under .com. Only big companies in Sweden can get a proper .se domain, and in some situations even the biggest pile of money won't help with these stupid rules.

    See why people appreciate .com?

  • by cnvogel ( 3905 ) <chrisNO@SPAMhedonism.cx> on Wednesday May 10, 2000 @07:03PM (#1079970) Homepage
    One point often made when discussing the new domain (or domains like .shop, .bank, ...) is, that it will make it easier for companies with simmilar names to have "nice and short" domain-names, so that one takes smith.com and the other smith.eu....

    But the big-ones will just register their name in every .xx they can get their hands on and will sue everyone who has registered this domain before...

    As long as people do not understand, that there is such a thing like www.de.company.com (instead of company.de) or www.company.com/de or www.company.de/product (instead of e.g. www.hp2000.com for HP's 2000-Printer) this just makes no sense....
  • Wouldn't www.dot.dot actually be "www dot dot dot dot"?

    ;-)

  • Oh yeah.. forgot .int, .in (India), .it (Italy)
  • Everybody knows the big US domains (.com, .org, .net, .edu, .gov). And anybody halfway with it knows about country codes [uci.edu] too. (.de, .uk, etc.)

    Additionally, most old timers remember when .mil addresses used to be more common (and often used, too!), and some of use even remember the old .arpa addresses. And the European Union [eu.int] currently has a .int address. But has anybody found a .nato address? In theory, the exist, but the closest I've ever come has been the NATO [nato.int] home page.

  • I agree. I think .eu could also be a political thing...be part of a greater nation(-like) thing and not struggle in fights against others... as europe always did.
  • by iCEBaLM ( 34905 ) <icebalm&icebalm,com> on Wednesday May 10, 2000 @07:09PM (#1079975)
    The Euopean Union tonight unanimously agreed to create the toplevel internet domain ".eu". Our France correspondant went on record stating "Ewww!". Puzzling isn't it?

    Elsewhere around the globe the United Guatamala Hegemony is going to lobby for the toplevel domain ".ugh", while the Urguay National Federation plans on aquiring ".unf".

    Sources close to the Micronesia Open Organization say they would enjoy ".moo" but it looks like they would be turned down as they aren't big enough to aquire it, unlike the Hundouras Organization of Tribbles who want ".hot" and the Guam Rightously Inspired Troll Service who want ".grits".

    -- iCEBaLM
  • Reading, "they are WORLDWIDE, NOT AMERICAN TLDs.", along with, "I'm sure that they are thinking - 'lets give the companies an alternative TLD to use'. Unfortunately, if I was an EU company, I would still register the .com, .net and .org TLDs anyway."

    I am reminded of 2600s current battle with Verizon. In the May 2nd (I believe)issue of Off The Hook [2600.com] 2600 mentioned Verizon buying up all available TLDs, including misspellings of Verizon along with... get this, VerizonSucks.com. To outdo them, 2600 mentioned "Hey, why don't we register VerizonREALLYsucks.com, it doesn't appear they got that one yet". Apparently they did follow through and register it, within a few days they received a letter demanding the domain rights [2600.com] be handed over, and over-night mail be sent back to Verizon with the required information to transfer the domain.

    (For those of you who don't know, Verizon is a recent merger involving Bell Atlantic and various other phone companies)

    Needless to say, 2600 is now ensnared in about 5 court cases including this new one. I find it interesting that with SO many legitimate TLDs for a domain, Corporate rights are still maintained over every one. It appears a precedent setting case will be involved with this new threat by Verizon.

    Somebody should register VerizonSucks.EU or .TV, I would like to know how American law holds out over in Europe or Tuvulu. 8-).

    My point though is simply that we should really question what the validity of these TLDs really are. I mean, is a phone company really an Organization, a Commerce, a Network, a US, a CA, an EU.... all at the same time? If nobody follows the rules on these TLDs, and corporate America can do what they wish with any of them, why the hell have anything but .SO? (sellout). That's my pun.

    If we're going to standardize naming conventions, I think we should require that Everybody follow them. Especially Corporate America, as it has the least right to be on the internet. The internet was certainly not built by "www.Flowers.Org (roses.com)" [flowers.org], and it is certainly not alive because of them.

    When I go to hotsex.org I expect an organization of dedicated non-profit sexual professionals. If I wanted to pay, I'd be at the COM site.

    Get my drift?

  • shhhh! I make good money registering domains for people, more domains more money :)

    Seriously though, how much longer are they going to keep expanding the current system and making it more and more confusing?

    if .com & .net are now basically the same thing (and to a lesser extent .org, /. doesn't create money?) why bother having 3 seperate TLD's anyway?

    if .com can be,

    • a multinational
    • a personal homepage dedicated to navel fluff
    • a butcher, a baker, a candlestickmaker...
    then what does .com mean? if almost everyone uses is then why have it at all?

    just think it is time for something new, preferably something that works for the numbers involved these days, this is just going to make the eventual transition harder slower, and mean that more people are throwing away cash (not just the reg fee, but advertising etc.) on something that in a few years will be obselete...kinda like buying vinyl a decade ago or CDs/VHS now...

  • Should you wish, you may email me at

    mistress@fuckyou.co.uk

  • Euro, not ECU (wich stood for european currency unit).
  • The .dot actually sounds like a good idea to me.

    Pronouncing things "Slashdot dot org" or "IBM dot com" just seems awful wordy. It's even worse when you have to say www first too.

    I'd much prefer saying "website dot dot." Seems easier to say to me.

    Of course i'd have to fight for the rights to dot.dot. I'd love that domain. "www dot dot dot"
  • by QuMa ( 19440 )
    host -l int.

    int name server ns0.ja.net
    int name server ns1.cs.ucl.ac.uk
    int name server ns.uu.net
    int name server ns.isi.edu
    int name server dot.ep.net
    int name server ns.itu.ch
    ices.int name server danpost2.uni-c.dk
    ices.int name server danpost.uni-c.dk
    ippc.int name server homer.alpha.net
    ippc.int name server jer.mia.net
    oecd.int name server delphi.iea.org
    oecd.int name server bastion.oecd.org
    ecb.int name server auth02.ns.de.uu.net
    ecb.int name server auth52.ns.de.uu.net
    ecb.int name server ns.ecb.int
    ns.ecb.int has address 195.126.128.11
    imf.int name server imfaix5s.imf.org
    imf.int name server imfaix4s.imf.org
    ilo.int name server dxmon.cern.ch.int
    ilo.int name server ns.unicc.org
    intelsat.int name server ns.intelsat.int
    ns.intelsat.int has address 164.86.102.11
    intelsat.int name server ns.mci.net
    kedo.int name server orcu.or.br.np.els-gms.att.net
    kedo.int name server ohcu.oh.mt.np.els-gms.att.net
    nasco.int name server ns1.ednet.co.uk
    nasco.int name server ns0.ednet.co.uk
    era.int name server ns00.ns0.com
    era.int name server ns21.pair.com
    bceao.int name server ns2.bceao.int
    ns2.bceao.int has address 196.1.95.1
    bceao.int name server ns.bceao.int
    ns.bceao.int has address 207.50.234.1
    redcross.int name server ns.ifrc.org
    redcross.int name server ns.eunet.ch
    oie.int name server armor.allaban.fr
    oie.int name server ns1.mlc-las.com
    reliefweb.int name server ns.itu.ch
    reliefweb.int name server ns1.ip-plus.net
    reliefweb.int name server ns.isi.edu
    esa.int name server esacom42.esoc.esa.de
    esa.int name server esacom43.esoc.esa.de
    upu.int name server aphrodite.upu.int
    aphrodite.upu.int has address 193.247.55.1
    upu.int name server hestia.upu.int
    hestia.upu.int has address 193.247.54.1
    ohr.int name server ns.bru.tfi.be
    ohr.int name server ns.sto.telegate.se
    ohr.int name server ns.ams.telegate.nl
    unfccc.int name server merlin.unfccc.de
    unfccc.int name server ludwig.unv.org
    soia.int name server dns.jrc.it
    soia.int name server nic.jrc.it
    cto.int name server bilbo.globalnet.co.uk
    cto.int name server gandalf.globalnet.co.uk
    cto.int name server anorak.fourthnet.co.uk
    iai.int name server www.iai.int
    www.iai.int has address 150.163.35.1
    iai.int name server yabae.cptec.inpe.br
    iai.int name server ns.iai.int
    ns.iai.int has address 150.163.35.1
    basel.int name server info.unep.ch
    basel.int name server keeper.unep.ch
    adsn.int name server ns.nc3a.nato.int
    ns.nc3a.nato.int has address 192.41.140.35
    adsn.int name server auth04.ns.de.uu.net
    adsn.int name server auth54.ns.de.uu.net
    iom.int name server vtserver2.firstswiss.net
    iom.int name server vtserver1.firstswiss.net
    eurocontrol.int name server gate.eurocontrol.int
    gate.eurocontrol.int has address 193.221.170.196
    eurocontrol.int name server ns.hasselt.hostit.be
    oiv.int name server ns1.axnet.fr
    oiv.int name server ns1.technologia.net
    apnic.int name server ns.apnic.net
    apnic.int name server svc01.apnic.net
    iana.int name server flag.ep.net
    iana.int name server dot.ep.net
    efo.int name server Resolver.Chaney.Net
    efo.int name server NS3.CHANEY.NET
    idb.int name server gate.iadb.org
    idb.int name server ns1.sprintlink.net
    idb.int name server ns2.sprintlink.net
    idb.int name server ns3.sprintlink.net
    ip4.int name server flag.ep.net
    ip4.int name server dot.ep.net
    ip4.int name server NS.ISI.EDU
    idea.int name server ideapub.idea.int
    ideapub.idea.int has address 193.15.42.69
    idea.int name server ideamail.idea.int
    ideamail.idea.int has address 193.15.42.66
    nsap.int name server knock.ser.bbnplanet.net
    nsap.int name server ns.eu.net
    nsap.int name server auth03.ns.uu.net
    nsap.int name server ns.ripe.net
    ip6.int name server imag.imag.fr
    ip6.int name server ns.isi.edu
    ip6.int name server dot.ep.net
    ip6.int name server munnari.oz.au
    nato-pa.int name server ns2.grmbl.be
    nato-pa.int name server ns.grmbl.be
    upov.int name server gatekeeper.unicc.org
    upov.int name server dxmon.cern.ch
    abis.int name server dns.jrc.it
    abis.int name server nic.jrc.it
    commonwealth.int name server ns0.demon.co.uk
    commonwealth.int name server ns1.demon.co.uk
    commonwealth.int name server ns2.demon.net
    efta.int name server dns.riv.be
    efta.int name server ns2.eu.concert.net
    tpc.int name server ns1.tpc.int
    ns1.tpc.int has address 207.102.129.130
    tpc.int name server auth02.ns.uu.net
    tpc.int name server ns1.covalent.net
    interpol.int name server bow.rain.fr
    interpol.int name server proof.rain.fr
    cis.int name server ns1.cityline.ru
    cis.int name server ns.cl.spb.ru
    emep.int name server guide.oslo.dnmi.no
    emep.int name server tell.oslo.dnmi.no
    worldbank.int name server dns1.worldbank.org
    worldbank.int name server dns2.worldbank.org
    eu.int name server ns.restena.lu
    eu.int name server tcbru22.cec.be
    eu.int name server dnsCC.eu.int
    dnsCC.eu.int has address 195.46.228.67
    eu.int name server tclux1.cec.lu
    ifc.int name server IFCDNS2.ifc.int
    IFCDNS2.ifc.int has address 164.114.250.1
    ifc.int name server IFCDNS1.ifc.int
    IFCDNS1.ifc.int has address 164.114.1.7
    palestine.int name server ns.doleh.com
    palestine.int name server pappsrv.papp.undp.org
    nato.int name server ns1.drenet.dnd.ca
    nato.int name server ns1.cs.ucl.ac.uk
    nato.int name server relay.mod.uk
    nato.int name server ns.nra.nato.int
    ns.nra.nato.int has address 192.101.252.69
    rdi.int name server dot.ep.net
    rdi.int name server ns.isi.edu
    weu.int name server ns.grmbl.com
    weu.int name server ns2.grmbl.com
    weu.int name server ns.weu.int
    ns.weu.int has address 194.119.233.10
    wipo.int name server NS.UNICC.ORG
    wipo.int name server DXMON.CERN.CH
    wipo.int name server NS1.IP-PLUS.NET
    wto.int name server ns.unicc.org
    wto.int name server dxmon.cern.ch
    nic.int name server ns.itu.ch
    sita.int name server wjao001.sita.int
    wjao001.sita.int has address 57.250.224.18
    sita.int name server wjao002.sita.int
    wjao002.sita.int has address 57.250.224.19
    sita.int name server auth02.ns.uu.net
    reg.int name server flag.ep.net
    reg.int name server ns.isi.edu
    un.int name server unhqint1.un.org
    un.int name server ns.uu.net
    icao.int name server dns1.videotron.net
    icao.int name server dns2.videotron.net
    itu.int name server ns.itu.ch
    itu.int name server ns1.ip-plus.net
    itu.int name server ns.isi.edu
    iaea.int name server ns.iaea.org
    iaea.int name server nesirs05.iaea.org
    who.int name server dxmon.cern.ch
    who.int name server ns.who.int
    ns.who.int has address 158.232.17.1
    pic.int name server info.unep.ch
    pic.int name server keeper.unep.ch
    ivi.int name server ns.ivi.org
    ivi.int name server hibserver.ivi.org
    gip.int name server tclux1.cec.lu
    gip.int name server ns.ispo.cec.be
    comesa.int name server puku.zamnet.zm
    comesa.int name server lechwe.zamnet.zm
    maris.int name server www.ispo.cec.be
    maris.int name server cobalt.aliis.be
    iic.int name server gate.iadb.org
    iic.int name server ns1.sprintlink.net
    iic.int name server ns2.sprintlink.net
    iic.int name server ns3.sprintlink.net
    atma.int name server NS.ISI.EDU
    atma.int name server dot.ep.net
    coe.int name server neon.coe.int
    neon.coe.int has address 194.250.50.99
    coe.int name server cuivre.coe.int
    cuivre.coe.int has address 194.250.50.94
    coe.int name server sky.obs.coe.int
    sky.obs.coe.int has address 195.132.12.73
    ffa.int name server albacore.ffa.int
    albacore.ffa.int has address 202.63.254.1
    ffa.int name server yarrina.connect.com.au
    ffa.int name server warrane.connect.com.au
    ffa.int name server rip.psg.com
    ripe.int name server ns.ripe.int
    ns.ripe.int has address 193.0.0.193
    ripe.int name server ns.eu.net
    ripe.int name server auth02.ns.uu.net
    ripe.int name server ns3.nic.fr
    ripe.int name server munnari.OZ.AU
    ripe.int name server sunic.sunet.se
    etc-waste.int name server ns.uni2.net
    etc-waste.int name server ns2.uni2.net
    sopac.int name server flag.ep.net
    sopac.int name server cobalt.sopac.org.fj
    sopac.int name server sopacsun.sopac.org.fj
    ymca.int name server dns1.petrel.ch
    ymca.int name server dns.petrel.ch
    unesco.int name server ns.unesco.int
    ns.unesco.int has address 193.242.192.2
    unesco.int name server io.aurif.fr
    ecmwf.int name server ns0.ecmwf.int
    ns0.ecmwf.int has address 193.61.196.131
    ecmwf.int name server ns1.ecmwf.int
    ns1.ecmwf.int has address 193.61.196.132
    seanet.int name server dns0.whoi.edu
    seanet.int name server dns1.whoi.edu
    seanet.int name server dns.omnet.com
    issa.int name server ns.unicc.org
    issa.int name server dxmon.cern.ch
    spc.int name server idefix.spc.org.nc
    spc.int name server yarrina.connect.com.au
    unilat.int name server ns0.easynet.fr
    unilat.int name server ns1.easynet.fr
    sol.int name server ns0.verio.net
    sol.int name server ns1.verio.net
    espace.int name server ns.austria.eu.net
    espace.int name server ns.eu.net
    SADC.int name server ns.SADC.int
    ns.SADC.int has address 196.24.200.129
    SADC.int name server ns.proxima.alt.za
    SADC.int name server johan.sprintlink.co.za
    beac.int name server sbeacscxi.beac.int
    sbeacscxi.beac.int has address 195.24.194.82
    beac.int name server sbeacscxm.beac.int
    sbeacscxm.beac.int has address 195.24.194.81
  • OK, OK, I get the hint -- I promise never to comment about a TLD without switching to my BSD box and hecking first. ;-)

    Anyway, I just thought it was odd that you so rarely see it referenced, considering the subject matter it covers. I could it just be a side-effect of it actually being run properly (no metoo.int, etc).

    -jcl

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