
EU Competition Commission Investigating Win2k 251
David Middleton writes "The European Commission is concerned that "Microsoft has designed parts of Windows 2000 in such a way which will permit it to leverage its dominance in PC operating systems into other markets."
" The European market is one that's often forgotten in this whole anti-trust suit, but is still of critical importance to Microsoft. Now, this is not an anti-trust investigation, but considering the concerns of the EU commisioner, it's something definitely worth keeping an eye on.
Get a grip on yourself (Score:3)
You used to be so good. You're smart; I know you still have it in you. But you've got to take better care of yourself. I've seen the stuff you've been eating. I can't imagine that a steady diet of pizza and fast food could be good for you. I know, I know, I don't have a body, so I couldn't possibly understand. Save it for your calculator, bud. If it wasn't for the 16 metric tonnes of caffeine you consume weekly you'd likely be grossly overweight. I can only assume it's the constant twitching like a rabbit on crack that burns away the calories. And I can't recall the last time I saw your desk devoid of pixie stix. What, do own stock in the company or something? Oh, you do. Never mind.
Get a grip on yourself. Yeah, you're making money now, but is it worth the crappy software you're coding? No, of course it isn't. Sleep. Go out once or twice. What's the use of having all that money if you're not going to spend it. At the rate you're going, you'll be in the ground at 33. Take a vacation or something. Just PLEASE try and take better care of yourself. I AM a machine, and I know I'm only going to be useful for a couple years . . . . .
It wouldn't surprise me...... (Score:1)
With some of the strange laws passed in Europe affecting the UK recently, such as we *have* to use metric measurement instead of imperial and we can get away with a speeding ticket due to the right to remain silent. I would think that Brussels could also provide a law that it is illegal to sell a crap product to people while telling them that its great
Can't win here... (Score:1)
Maybe...
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So what is it? (Score:1)
EU's got a point (Score:1)
Article lacking in DETAIL. (Score:1)
From what I read the EU seems to be investigating MS because its new OS will dominate the computer market.
What part of the OS? Why doesn't Win9x and NT qualify under this investigation? What does this new OS give MS that its previous OSs didn't?
Real Concern (Score:1)
On the other hand, if Europe has been watching events in the US, I'm sure they'll be savvy to this and look any gift horse in the mouth very very carefully.
--
Matthew Walker
My DNA is Y2K compliant
Problems with the article (Score:1)
Is it me or does this story have some factual errors? Win2k is not replacing win98. Microsoft realized that it could make a lot more money by selling a cheap crappy desktop OS (win95/98 and descendents) and another "good stable secure server OS" (winNT/2k and descendents) for much more money.
Kind of makes me mad though. When did stability become optional in a commercial operating system?
Enough Time? (Score:1)
If they do what they have done it the past there product may be banned from Europe. Now wouldn't that put a burr up Bill's a**. Allow more time for Linux in Europe!
statement de la commission Europenne (Score:3)
Mais nous ne nous fait trop de peine au sujet de Petitsoft et ses "borgs". Nous nous concernerons en plus de la site d'internet de "slashdotte", et la problem grave des "putains de Karma". Ca fait clairementun breche des regulations europeennes au suject de la controle de la prositution et du religion.
Parce que la slashdotte continue de distributer ses infractions sur l'internette europeen, nous avons les sentencer d'un campaign fort de "trollement". En utiliser le surplus europeene de porridge de mais chaud (les "hot grits"), et les services de l'acteur francais Jean Reno, qui a joue le charateur de "Leon" dans la film de ce-nomme avec NATALIE PORTMAN, nous pouvons deluger slashdotte avec des postes de merde.
Nous voulons, messiuers, de vous remercie pour la chatte de vos grandmeres.
La Commission trollien d'Europe.
Re:EU's got a point (Score:1)
Hmm, good point... if this is true -- that Win2k is a catch-up-to-Linux version of Windows -- then we've won the war, in principle, because the tables have turned.
However, much as I'd like Linux to win over Windows, I don't this claim is 100% true... perhaps in the server market, yes. But Windows will still hold the majority of the desktop market for quite some time to come, as far as I can tell.
They want to subsidize it! (Score:2)
What MS has to do is to get spanked badly in the US, and then convince the EU that they need money to be able to sell their product.
Hey - it works for all other companies in the EU ;)
(overrated, not funny at all, spanked)
All this, and it isn't even out yet? (Score:4)
Gee, when it comes out things could get very interesting...
Ben
Re:Check this out... (Score:1)
Someone please troll this guy before he manages to buy a house off all the business slashdot is going to give his site.
Self serving bastard...
uhhhhh (Score:1)
Re:It wouldn't surprise me...... (Score:2)
That isn't really all that new. Ever heard of tariffs? Essentially those are created to insure that people but US goods because most people don't want to pay more $$ for something that is overseas. However this dosn't rule out you buying it just decreases the sales of such products.
With some of the strange laws passed in Europe affecting the UK recently, such as we *have* to use metric measurement instead of imperial and we can get away with a speeding ticket due to the right to remain silent. I would think
that Brussels could also provide a law that it is illegal to sell a crap product to people while telling them that its great
If I sell horse feces in a can and say it's the best all around health food is this a good thing? Precenting people from being able to sell fradulent defective products is all what the 20th century and reform were all about.
I wish... (Score:1)
Re:You can bet... (Score:1)
Furthermore, it's only nice to know that they are finally seeing that there are other os'es as well. I don't know if you are aware, but the business and govt. sectors run solely on windows. Which sucks. Big time.
And, btw - I think it's the time to have a more serious competition on the os business as well (not only Linux/Windows) - what about something else ?
And furthermore, what about breaking the US "monopole" on the software market ? Not that this will happen in the following decade, but still
What is the Difference (Score:2)
I have been using Windows 2000 for a couple weeks now and I can see some nice things that have been done, but nothing to warrent a major investigation. The internals of the OS are very much a melding of win98 and winNT with some more nice features. IE is integrated into it but that was true for windows 98 also. Nothing in windows 2000 locks you into using a mirosoft only setup. In fact I was able to get my winmodem to work on 2000 and have my linux box use it as a gateway. Until now I was only able to connect at 14.4 but I still have the option to go back to my linux box as my gateway.
The article did not even elaborate on what parts of win2000 made them belive that it would increase the MS strangle hold. Does windows 2000 realy change things that much? In my personal view, no. The only reasson that Microsoft may extend their power is because for once they were actualy able to create a decent product.
Re:Problems with the article (Score:1)
Re:It wouldn't surprise me...... (Score:1)
>law that it is illegal to sell a crap product to
>people while telling them that its great
I think there's something about that in the trade descriptions act in the UK already.
These guys actually have a clue!!! (Score:3)
Apparently the EU competition chief, Mario Monti, thinks that they do "it in a way which permits only Microsoft products to be fully interoperable. Microsoft's competitors, which do not have access to the interfaces, would therefore be put at a significant competitive disadvantage"
Does this guy read /. ?!?!
Speed of response (Score:2)
Oh gee..more crud (Score:1)
IIS was also present in NT4, as well as telnet server which was present in NT services for Unix.
So I guess when Linux distributions included those particular tools they were playing catchup to commercial Unices?
Secondly, how are these tools inferior to the *NIX versions? An arguement can be based on the telnet portion, but IIS? Give me a break. Apache is a great tool, but IIS is no slouch either.
Why not mention the tools which Win2K has and Linux does not? MMC? Best web browser on the market? Easy to setup Internet connection sharing? Those ring any bell?
GM food. (Score:1)
Although I'm anti GM simply because I don't like the idea of eating all the herbicides that herbicide resistant crops will have absorbed.
Re:You can bet... (Score:1)
Typo (Score:1)
Re:You can bet... (Score:1)
Makes a difference... (Score:1)
All the report actually says is that they will look into the possibility of M$ using their position to lever themselves into dominance of other markets. This is something that I suspect they would do to any other big company. In fact, I'm sure they have taken similar action against other comapnies.
What's interesting is that when they do it for other 'monopolistic' companies, there is a pretty mixed response amongst the general populous, but this will almost universally welcomed, irrespective of whether it is actually a good thing for the freedom of the market (which is after all what the EU is there to promote and protect)
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Re:Problems with the article (Score:1)
Re:I wish... (Score:1)
How would an action by the EU against a corporation (Microsoft) be consisdered a trade dispute - unless your suggesting that Microsoft is a country in its own right or that America and Microsoft should be considered as one and the same thing abroad (something I shudder to think of).....
TROLL! (Score:2)
EC vs MS (Score:1)
Win2K so far has:
- an incompatible DNS implementation
- an incompatible Kerberos 5 implementation
Who can't imagine environments where this might be a problem? The obvious solution is to go 100% Microsoft and this could make competitors nervous.
Now the real question for the EC is: did Microsoft engineer these 'bugs' by accident or by design? Incidents from the past seem to indicate that it was done on purpose, but you can't be sure can you?
Maybe we should wait for the first service pack?
I guess the EC doesn't want to wait...
Matt 'Euro' Casters
Damn right they should. (Score:2)
With another viable, quality desktop on the horizon, running on a free and stable OS, the leveraging ability of the WinApi becomes moot, which allows every other company to invest in the new paradigm. Thus the high significance mergers between Cygnus and RedHat, Borland/Inprise and Corel. The only major companies that haven't moved super-significantly into Linux are Lotus and Symantec -- and Lotus has moved Notes, just not the consumer grade "Smart Suite" applications. Which (AFAICT as a programmer) is because much of the code is so intertwined with the WinApi that extracting the core functionality is extremely difficult -- it would probably be faster to start over.
So if I were the head(s) of Microsoft, I would of course seek to recover by moving my heavy-handed techniques overseas, hoping that the rest of the world wouldn't be ready.
So we here that people at the EU is watching Microsoft's operations like a hawk watches a rabbit? Damn right they should!!Well, sorry folks in Redmond, Europe has SUSE [no distro-flame- war spark intended -- but last I checked SUSE was the #1 distro in Europe] and doesn't need you. Of course, if you would a) play nice and b) port your apps (which we acknowledge as having good qualities) to Linux, and c)open the API so that bugs can be found, fixed, etc. in a timely manner...
Re:Problems with the article (Score:1)
Re:TROLL! (Score:1)
Of course, some people will say that this is just becasue the EU doesn't like the UK almost as much as it doesn't like the US...
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Parent article (Score:1)
Incidentally, the bad press about Microsoft from abroad often also creates a bit of flak for other American companies as Microsoft is seen by xenophobes (to whom I do not belong - the only 'other' I seriously dislike is intolerant people) as so quintessentially American.
This sounds promising... (Score:1)
That this institute has indeed some influance was proven with the pie incident IMHO. Mr. Gates was there for a reason and it sure wasn't just a social visit as many people seem to have forgotten.
I'm quite curious to their findings; IMHO its very well posibly the outcome can be another devastating blow in the face of the MS company but we'll just have to wait and see.
Re:You can bet... (Score:1)
A couple of quick rebuttals before I get onto my main point. Firstly, the furore about GM foods was very little to do with our governments and very little to do with trade protection (we don't grow much soya, to start with). It was ordinary people (possibly ignorant and wrong ordinary people, led by their newspapers, but that's a different issue) complaining about GM that brought UK government action in the first place. Until they realised how unpopular it was, the UK govt was actually pro GM. Secondly I take some offence at your portrayal of "Euros" as a homogeneous group. We're not. I, for one, don't get excited about GM or trade protection, in general.
Alright, on to the main point. This is not about trade protection. "Europe" doesn't have a competing commercial OS, so there's nothing to protect. Xenophobic bigotry aside, don't you think that the EU could be as concerned about MS strongarm tactics as the US DoJ is? Afterall, EU consumers are getting screwed over to the exact same degree that US ones are. And finally, the EU does have a record for taking unpopular action against its own firms and industries. Indeed, that's one of the reasons it is somewhat reviled in the UK - people object to the introduction of compulsory decimalised labelling of goods, for example. Especially the firms that have to implement it.
The EU has many problems, but this is not one of them.
--
Tom Harris
http://www.harris.ukgateway.net [ukgateway.net]
Re:You can bet... (Score:2)
Rubbish! You don't know what you're talking about. The EU has much stricter anti-trust laws than America. Take the current Vodaphone (non-US company) take over bid for Mannesman... Vodaphone will probably have to sell Orange to complete the deal.
You're the one who's whining like a protectionist
Re:You can bet... (Score:1)
I'm sick to death of a bunch of right wing libertarian assholes with a US centric view (if they even believe in the US as an idea (can you spell militia!) banging away at any sort of regulation.
Get a few facts straight. GM food - look at public opinion - informed public opinion (like all my mates who have PhD's in environmental toxicolgy and other such subjects) who won't touch the stuff with a bargepole. FUD works both ways. And as for us being a bunch of socialists, well thats the way we like things (if I had wanted a conservative government I'd have voted for Tony!). Oh, and we don't like Austrian Fascists either!
Big corporations will run roughshod over anyone who doesn't stand up against them. Be thankful for the US government and the EU taking a stance when they do.
Re:EU's got a point (Score:1)
It also seems that Windows 2000 is being marketed as a sort of e-commerce solution for small businesses, so it would be hard to complain that they're sneakily trying to get into that market.
Unfortunately, the article wasn't very clear about what they think Microsoft is doing wrong. (But all I can see are smart business moves.)
Translation (From Franglais) (Score:1)
But we are not only worried about Petitsoft and its "borgs". We will also concern ourselves to the Internet site of "slashdotte", and the serious problem of "putains of Karma". It made clear breach of the European regulations to the subject of the control of the prositution and the religion.
Because slashdotte continues to distribute its infringements on the European internette, we have the sentenced it to a campaign of "trollement". By using the European surplus of hot porridge (the "hot grits "), and the services of the French actor Jean Reno, who has the charator of " Leon " in film of the same name, with NATALIE PORTMAN, we will flood Slashdot with bad posts
We want to thank ypou for your grandmother's cat
The Troll Commission of Europe.
Re:EU's got a point (Score:1)
Win2k did a lot to address previous versions shortcomings. For example, I've been running win2k on my laptop for about a week with NO LOCKUPS. That nothing to a *NIX box, but it's a helluva improvement over previous versions.
I can see how EU would be upset with MS increasing it's strangle hold, but it is a better product for once. If people who currently run NT want to upgrade they shold be allowed to. The article that was linked to did make one mistake: It stated that 2000 is intended to replace 9X. It's not, that's Windows ME (what a lame ass name). You can upgrade from 9X with 2000 pro, but I don't recomend it. You loose way too much if you want to play games etc. But If you want a rock-solid (in comparison) Windows...Win2k pro is it. This is just my opinion and nothing more...
Re:You can bet... (Score:1)
As far as bogus claims go, though, I rather enjoy it that in certain instances (GM foods, in particular) a government entity steps forward and demands proof before the fact.
And when it comes to Microsoft in particular, if you think for one minute that they aren't doing everything they can to make other-OS interoperability a nightmare then you're probably using WFW 3.11.
-- an expat yank in euroland
Speaking of nonsequitors... (Score:1)
There's a billboard I pass every day on my way to work. Presently it reads...
Microsoft Windows 2000
All the security of Windows NT
And all the reliability of your mother
Obviously, no one from Microsoft has ever had a phone call from my mother when she was trying to install something new on her computer. But from what I've heard about win2k, the statement seems fair.
Eurpean Commision is kickin' butt anyway with MS (Score:1)
This could be an MS-killer in Europe.
Next French (local) gouvernments start using open-source products.
Anti-Microsoft sentiments are growing on continental scale here, the mentioned article is just another thrill in this proces.
Re:It wouldn't surprise me...... (Score:1)
> affecting the UK recently, such as we *have* to
> use metric measurement instead of imperial
Actually, the EU gives another ten years for the
switch over, it's recent UK governments that have
decided to force the switch immediately.
ian.
How to fight back (Score:2)
Re:All this, and it isn't even out yet? (Score:1)
Do you have references for this statement?
I'm a unix admin for a "big three" automotive company in Detroit and in their "infinite wisdom" are pushing W2K down the pipe. I'd be really happy to have ammunition to attempt to reverse this decision.
Re:You can bet... (Score:1)
It would be understandable if there were a major OS supplier in Europe (sorry, SUSE, there is a long way to go), but there isn't one... to _protect_.
Re:TROLL! (Score:1)
:-)
Thimo
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Re:You can bet... (Score:1)
those bogus claims? you (yes, you, yankee boys) have not in fact proved that GM food is not harmful to humans. and you oppose our demand that all GM shit be labeled so as to leave the choise to the consumer, do you not? So in effect, you want to force this shit down our throats, ain't that so? And I wan't to ask you: what do you think all those hormones you give your farm animals do to he man? Just think of Littleton, Atlanta daytrader.. you (the yankee folks) are fscking nuts, and you are getting grazier every day.
I actually like Win2K, it is a step foward (Score:2)
It had some fishy features, my laptop crashed twice during the three months, but overhaul, it was pretty solid. The game support was better than NT4, the interface cleaner (once you got used to it and disabled most of the "new features") and seemed a little more stable than NT4. Overall, good job Microsoft.
I can't comment on the server end, but what I've read doesn't interest me as a user (as a consultant yes, as a user, no). Active Directory: from what I've seen, it is more complicated than the traditional domains. When I learn how they work, I'll probably consider them about the same, but for now, it is more annoying. While the old model broke for large sites, I personally wouldn't user NT in large sites.
As I've said for years to my Linux/Unix friends. NT does what it does really well: administering logons for Windows (and NT) workstations. The roaming profiles work most of the time (and the errors aren't too bad), logon scripts work, and the file and print serving works.
I wouldn't dream of running a real website off of it, but for a small office without a full-time sysadmin... it works.
The Unix people talk about all the features that Win2K (and NT4) has that are new and mention how they have had them for years. True, NT/Win2K is playing catchup in server space. This makes sense, NT is new. *nix has been around forever as a server and should have more features. Linux, grabbing for the desktop, is copying ideas left and right from Windows. It balances out, and that is how competition works.
Win2K is a pretty solid product. I wish Microsoft well with it. I'm not a huge Microsoft fan, and I'm also chearing for their enemies. But if I can get DirectX support with the stability of NT, I'll probably stop considering Linux on my desktop all together.
Sorry, NT is STABLE ENOUGH for me. I reboot every few weeks, and in return I have better application support than Linux. Would I consider running Windows 9x/ME? Hell no, they are a joke of an OS. Linux needs to stop patting itself on the pat for being more stable than Win9x. In the stability race, NT is the competition. If NT is "good enough," then Linux needs another killer app for the desktop.
And no, $200/station or enough $500/station to people that pay consultants $150/hr to do network stuff doesn't make a different.
Alex
Re:Article lacking in DETAIL. (Score:1)
Easy; its new and it looks different. Sure, this may sound utterly stupid to you & me and a lot of other readers but this is really a very big issue. People want something 'new' to play with every now and then.
Lets translate this to Linux; why can't some people wait untill the 2.4.0 is out? Most of 'm are not troubled with any bugs which immobilize the OS but they are very curious to see all the new goodies inside. Heck; some even risk the chance of wrecking their system in order to use something even more new (2.3.x).
Re:It wouldn't surprise me...... (Score:1)
Not strange, it is part of breaking down trade barriers. Everyone works from a level playing field i.e. the one system of units and measures. Then you don't have extra costs in remarking your goods for one market and you can tranparently compare one (metric) product with another (imperial)
Re:Oh gee..more crud (Score:1)
Take a look at the number of security advisories and bug tracking for IIS.
You might change your opinion.
Re:It wouldn't surprise me...... (Score:3)
Try reading a typical software licence - 'this product is of absolutely no use whatsoever and there is no warranty of any kind'. What should be illegal is claiming one thing in advertisements (eg 'XXX is a reliable platform for e-commerce') and then comprehensively denying it in the licence.
Let's make free software even more international (Score:3)
(b)Eurocracy Rules! (Score:1)
As a pro Euro Brit, it is great to see the EU providing a service that all can benefit from.
Re:You can bet... (Score:2)
This is merely trade protectionism
.bogus claims about GM foods. It is likely you had too much GM food lately. Two things:
The more interssting subject is will Win2K be forbidden in Germany and France or not. These countries have very strict regulations on the scientology sect. There, you may not buy any product or use any product in any government or gorvernment contracted/subsidized environment if it has been produced by any company owned by the scientologists.
At the same time MS has employed a scientology owned company to develop the disk checking and diagnostic utilities for W2k. So what happened to this investigation (it has been on slashdot in the past).
Other MS activity in Europe. (Score:2)
According to the article, he will "advise on encryption and data warehousing." (Can you really see him being imparitial about what systems to go for?) but the most worring quote was when he said "The lottery terminals in the past have not used PC technology and there hasn't been a way of leveraging all the things which are going on with the internet" (emphasis mine)
Begin with lottery tickets, maybe, but how long do you think it could be before you can only order online with windows?
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Re:It wouldn't surprise me...... (Score:1)
Re:Oh gee..more crud (Score:1)
Funny you should mention that...IP masquerading has been part of the Linux kernel functionnality for quite some time.
Re:Typo (Score:1)
For crying out loud! (Score:2)
I swear, people have no sense. Those of us who aren't brainwashed Linux zealots realize that there are actually some very good things about Windows 2000. When Linux users run around chanting "Down with Microsoft!" it just makes me wonder what they're scared of. If Win2K is really as big a piece of crap as you guys seem to think (and it isn't, in my experience), then what are you afraid of?? Let events take their course. The best will survive. If people like Windows better, they'll use Windows. If they like Linux better, they'll use Linux.
I prefer being able to choose between Windows 2000 and Linux rather than being forced to use Linux. There are quite a few things that Windows 2000 does (and does nicely) that Linux doesn't...especially in the realm of server linking, COM objects, smart caching of pages in IIS, and most of all: usability .
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WTO is a tool of the corporations (Score:1)
The Lie behind "Win2K is great!" (Score:1)
It now includes a telnet server, which NT 4.0 did not. It has only 2 things which require a reboot, unlike the 60 or so that NT 4.0 required. It's now a lot more stable than NT 4.0. It now includes plug and pray, which NT 4.0 didn't. It now allows for command-line administration, which NT 4.0 didn't. And on and on and on...
The problem with this is that it does not show how good that Win2K is. It only shows how bad NT 4.0 is. Looking at it all I cannot believe that Microsoft had the unbelievable nerve to charge a damn thing for that piece of dog shit known as NT. It is an insult to our intelligence as technichal people, but not to the intelligence of management (who bought into the lies of Microsoft).
The only time I've seen Win2K being compared to another OS is when Inactive Directory is being compared to NDS. From the (biased) reports I've seen, it looks like NDS is better.
Win2K is only great in that it's a lot better than the problems that Microsoft created with NT4. I can't wait to see Microsoft destroyed by the DOJ and by the EU. They deserve it.
Re:You can bet... (Score:2)
Since when was Linux run by a Finnish company? Where it was started is entirely irrelevant.
Come on, you might at least try...
Greg
Duh. (Score:2)
Who'd a thunk it!
OF COURSE, they're adding features and trying to dominate the server market (as if they don't already!). That's what companies do when they want to keep growing, Microsoft and all the rest! Despite my personal feelings about Microsoft (which aren't generally too positive) this smacks of the often clueless EU trying to stop a company from doing what it's supposed to do. Gawd! And I thought the US government was clueless and pathetic - the EU makes us look brilliant in comparison!
Does Mario Monti really think that they really have the ability to stop Windows 2000 from shipping as is, or that they can somehow hamstring it enough to suddenly jump-start a European competotor (don't kid yourself, this is what he's really after)? Wrong. Anti-trust in general is one thing, but this is stupid. Windows 2000 may well suck on it's own merits (though the Professional version is pretty nice, actually), but if NT 4 is legal (and it most likely is), then so is Windows 2000. Microsoft has plenty of problems ahead of it without this kind of stupidity.
If I were in Ballmer's shoes, I'd give serious thought to just saying "screw the Euros, I'll shut down my local offices over there and pull out of the market and see how fast they cave. Since the rest of the world is still going to be using all our software I'll show those buggers who's in charge here".
Of course, that's why I'm writing a
- -Josh Turiel
Reference on DNS problem (Score:2)
Cheers,
Ben
Re:You can bet... (Score:1)
Consumers in general are overwhelmingly against Genetically Modified food, and believe Microsoft is too powerful. But only in Europe is that reflected anywhere in their regulations.
Dang (Score:1)
(Darth Vader) "Impressive!"
Their plans are...fluid (Score:2)
It is no secret that the top brass wants to kill the 9x line, they just have not been able to execute it. (And anything they can use to squeeze out more OS revenue seems to wind up taking precedence over long-term strategy...)
Cheers,
Ben
Re:Makes a difference... (Score:1)
I think the fact that this has wiped more than $1bn off the value of M$'s shares (is that American or European billions I wonder...) means that the people who ultimately could make or break M$, the stock guys, care about this ruling.
American billions I sincerely hope - otherwise you'd be saying that MS were worth over $1,000,000,000,000 (a European billion or an American trillion) previously - that is one hell of a valuation. I think the entire GNP of the world is only something like $15,000,000,000,000 :)
Re:You can bet... (Score:1)
<I>32 states have legislations that disallow you to publically discuss possible health dangers in any agricultural produce.</I>
What? and this isn't inconstitutional? What is the first amendment for?
I can understand that you forbid people to shout fire in a theater but forbidding discussion of the lack of fire protection in theatres probably isn't forbidden and would be a violation of free speech, why isn't it the same for these stupid laws?
What does the article actually say? (Score:1)
The best will survive?! (Score:3)
Nice thought, but it doesn't happen that way, does it? In the US especially, it would be far more accurate to say:
The most heavily advertised and marketed will survive. If people listen to the media, they'll use Windows. If they are allowed to make their own decision, they'll at least have made their own choice.
As a dual booter using NT4 at the moment, I can't complain too much about the technical issues. However to Joe Public the computer arena is still a new and bewildering place to be, and the fact that Microsoft deliberately propagate the image that their software is the only way, using the media (to keep people stupid - in the immortal words of Bill Hicks). Don't you think that the stranglehold should be lifted to at least allow an alternative to flourish? All the EU seems to be saying is 'give third parties access to your API's'. Seems more like common-sense than strongarming to me......
Microsoft is using it's dollar value and corporate weight to stop others from even writing decent applications for their own OS, let alone use their software protocols on other OS's. That is why I dislike them. Their idea of utopia is of an MS-certified PC, running MS Windows, running solely MS/MS-approved apps, with MS deciding the rate of pay for these systems. MS is not the only offender here, but this goes way beyond monopoly. This is almost totalitarian thinking. If the EU can come down hard on Austria for electing a far-right-wing government, surely it can at least try to protect itself from a totalitarian US software company.
Re:All this, and it isn't even out yet? (Score:2)
People have had a lot of time to take a good look at even the final version of Windows 2000. Just because it's not on retail shelves doesn't mean it's not available at all.
Re:For crying out loud! (Score:2)
Let events take their course. The best will survive.
Bullshit. The best will win only if all products compete without cheating. MS has a long history of assuring that its inferior products prevail through shady OEM-arm-twisting, secret APIs, and OS integration. It's precisely these tactics that the EU is looking to prevent. Surely you have no problem with that? To paraphrase you: "If W2K really can compete on its own merits, then what are you afraid of?"
I won't go as far as accusing you of astroturfing, but be aware that you're serving the same purpose. If you were astroturfing, at least you'd be getting paid for your act of corporate fellatio. As it is, I can't see why you'd otherwise bother.
Re:Microsoft (Score:2)
I get the microsoft explorer, the microsoft notepad,
the microsoft disktools, the microsoft
But when I get.. say.. red hat, on the distro I may find:
the red hat installers, mozilla, lynx (wait a minute.. that's 2 browsers) several programming languages
(NOT a redhat product) etc. well.. that's quite a big difference
//rdj, not in a good mood today, so my english may not make much sense..
Re:TROLL(+OFFTOPIC)! (Score:2)
Also the reason Brits claim to enjoy their beer warm.
Re:If Microsoft _did_ pull out of Europe... (Score:2)
I think that the truly giant companies really don't give a damn what the EU thinks, they'll use their OS of choice anyway. That pressure alone make banning Windows 2000 unworkable.
Smaller and Euro-centric companies might well continue running their existing versions of Windows, or a few might turn to Apple or Linux, or something else - but not many of them.
Remember, the _average_ company could care less about Open Source, Linux, Free Software, or any of that - they just want decent supported software that they can easily find software for, users who know it, and the ability to interoperate easily with other companies. Linux may be technically superior, but it doesn't yet fill all those needed roles for the average shop and I doubt it's ready to start.
I think the more likely result is that Europe becomes a computing backwater.
- -Josh Turiel
Re:These guys actually have a clue!!! (Score:2)
Apparently the EU competition chief, Mario Monti, thinks that they do "it in a way which permits only Microsoft products to be fully interoperable. Microsoft's competitors, which do not have access to the interfaces, would therefore be put at a significant competitive disadvantage"
Certainly. After all, Microsoft's competitors generally don't have the intelligence to click on a URL. http://msdn.microsoft.com [microsoft.com]
Obviously. All Microsofts competitors are stupid. They have no idea whatsoever. Only Microsoft knows how to code. Heck, they're probably all dyslexic and can't read.
Point out one API which "permits only Microsoft products to be fully interoperable" and I'll show you where you're wrong - or I'll show you where it's documented. Any takers?
Simon
Re:The Lie behind "Win2K is great!" (Score:2)
That's the two pre-release security patches, right?
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Re:BURN THE CPU CYCLES!! (Score:2)
One of the early beta testers mentioned in a newsgroup that, at that early stage, the fading stuff occured on all applications except the MS Office line.
If you can think of an explanation for this, other than the obvious guess of "secret API for MS products", then I'd be happy to hear it.
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Re:Real Concern (Score:2)
Nick
Re:Their plans are...fluid (Score:2)
Fah -- In theory, they want to cut their R+D spending and support only one OS. In practice, they can't stop looking at the revenue stream from Windows 9x.
As long as Windows 9x keeps getting new features before NT/2000 (DirectX 8?), Microsoft's "unified Windows" strategy is a bunch of crap. Let's look at the record:
1989: "Windows 3.0 is a transitional environment until customers are ready for the powerful OS/2."
1991: "OS/2 is the wrong decision, we encourage customers to use Windows 3.1 until we ship our own replacement."
1993: "Windows NT 3.1 is finally the replacement for Windows 3.1. We encourage all customers and developers to switch to NT 3.1"
1994: "We have this great new 'Chicago' OS coming out that doesn't contain DOS. You might want to hold off on your NT plans."
1995: "Windows 95 is the replacement for Windows 3.1. We encourage customers to deploy Windows 95 until they are ready for the power of Windows NT."
1996: "Windows NT 4 is finally the desktop replacement for DOS/Windows. We encourage all customers and developers to switch to NT 4"
1997: "We have this great new 'Memphis' OS coming out that doesn't contain DOS. You might want to hold off on your NT plans."
1998: "Windows 98 is the replacement for Windows 95. We encourage customers to deploy Windows 95 until they are ready for the power of Windows NT."
1999: "Windows 2000 is finally the desktop replacement for DOS/Windows. We encourage all customers and developers to switch to Windows 2000."
2000: "We have this great new 'Millennium' OS coming out that doesn't contain DOS. You might want to hold off on your Win 2000 plans."
You see, this could continue forever...
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Re:For crying out loud! (Score:2)
Maybe it's Microsoft's anti-competitive practices which attempt to FORCE everyone to get rid of perfectly good non-Microsoft software for no reason other than Microsoft deliberately broke the standards that everyone else keeps. Until Microsoft stops using every product as an anti-competitive wedge, people will oppose Microsoft's wedges and Microsoft products in general. This is as it should be.
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Re:These guys actually have a clue!!! (Score:3)
Hmmm... you wear wool... I'm willing to bet that from this evidence, you spend 90% of your time every day thinking about having sex with sheep.
Disagree with me? In that case - provide evidence that you don't think about having sex with sheep 90% of the time.
You can't prove a negative. Congratulations - you're spreading FUD about Microsoft:
Fear - Microsoft has "hidden APIs" which lets them get more performance out of their code.
Uncertainty - Will our apps get the same benefits?
Doubt - Will we be able to go to market with this stuff if we don't know if we'll be able to compete effectively?
Well, thanks a lot. So basically, you're repeating hearsay evidence that X, Y and Z person has invented... you're not even able to point to apps that run better because the APIs which they use aren't documented.
Give you a hint: Microsoft isn't that organized internally. I used to work there - on the Visual Studio team. And guess what I used to find documentation for all of my programming? And what my peers all used? That's right! A Favorites item pointing to MSDN... just one click, and all your docs are there.
Of course, you won't believe me, because someone once said to you "Oh, Microsoft has all these secret APIs - that's why their wordprocessor runs better than XYZ's one... not because XYZ didn't optimize the heck out of it".
Again - show me the facts, jack.
Simon
Re: (Score:2)
Ok... this is a given. Except for the fact that the internal docs aren't available to MS programmers to use either (I tried while I was there so that I could access floppy disks at sector levels). You can get down to ioctl level if you want to -- and that IS documented.
Most developers outside of MS can't use the native "internal" NT api. A few have managed to reverse engineer pieces of it, but its well known that MS applications (like IIS) use this API extensively. Non MS applications are penalized because this api is not published and documented. Netscape actually talks about how they reverse engineered part of the internal NT api and doubled performance for their webserver. The IIS developers didn't have to reverse engineer anything; they had all the documentation available to them.
References please - I don't believe you. I'd love these magical URLs to fall from the sky detailing how Netscape needed to do X Y and Z to get things working.
Bear in mind, however, that Netscape (note: not Mozilla) has enough trouble getting a browser running fast & stable on Linux - and they have the SOURCE CODE for that...
Simon
Re:All this, and it isn't even out yet? (Score:2)
I consider this just another attack at Microsoft by another competitor.
I don't think it can be considered an attack. I think it's definitely worth knowing before you make an investment in something that could possibly screw things up. It's nice to know that it is a fixable thing and probably not a big deal for most people. At least they let you know that the problem exists and that there is a solution.
Re:Reference on DNS problem (Score:2)
It's no more biased than Microsoft's marketing claims. It's just that Microsoft's marketing makes it into the mainstream press a lot more than Novell's or anyone elses. They are just using their website to try to refute or clarify some of the claims that Microsoft makes. Nothing wrong with that. Take it with a grain of salt, just as you should do with anything carrying the scent of marketing.
Re:European colonies of USA blow it again (Score:2)
Sorry? It was Linus who was forced to admit Linux's TCPIP wasn't as scalable as NT. He admitted this several times stating that 2.4 would fix the problem.
Re: Commercial NAT has been available for windows (Score:2)
www.tinysoftware.com make an especially good version of NAT.
sun? (Score:2)
What? Sun had something to do with this? Believe me, I am trying to look very very suprised.
Re:For crying out loud! (Score:2)
Maybe it's the way their DNS is designed to crash Unix DNS.
</i>
<br><br>
Uh huh. So it's microsoft's fault that BIND was vunerable to DoS attacks? The problem was only in an earlier version of BIND, and was a bug in BIND, which has been patched.
<br><br>
I suppose you love Sun's proprietry software and hardware.
Re:European colonies of USA blow it again (Score:2)
Linux is always going to be the cheaper solution. And in many cases, a better choice.
As for the other features...well it's unfair to just sit around complaining about windows 2000 out of the box. Windows has always had 3rd party NAT and other networking products/addons.
Also security in NT is much more flexible. You can apply ACLs to everything from pipes/mutuxes/threads all the way to files.
Hear, hear (Score:2)
So, instead of setting up antitrust law, the solution is simply to abolish the laws, that set up the large companies to be successful in the first place.
Overregulation, and the teams of lawyers required to survive under such regimes, gives a competitive advantage to large corporations that 1) can afford the lawyers and 2) can afford to hire lobbyists to encourage reductions in the regulation and 3) can afford to hire lobbyists to encourage changes in the regulation to hurt their competitiors.
Example: Boeing lobbys the US, Airbus lobbys the EU. Result: everyone in aerospace dies, or is gobbled.
exactly (Score:2)