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Journal bethanie's Journal: Article: "Many Women...Set Career Path to Motherhood" 41

Journal by bethanie
Two things:
  1. I guess I must have been ahead of my time, because 12 years ago, as I approached graduating from college and was interviewing alums and exploring career paths, one of the most important (to me) questions that I asked was about how well careers in that field could be modified to work-at -home and/or part-time positions.

    Maybe it was telling that most of the women I talked to were NOT supportive of that concept in the slightest. :-)

  2. I also am bothered by the presumption that there's such a dichotomy between "working" and "staying at home." Why is it considered "work" if a woman leaves her children with another caregiver to go work for someone else (maybe even caring for other women's children!), but raising one's children oneself is NOT?

    Maybe this is where politics enter into it, and I guess because the do-it-yourself version of parenting can't be taxed, it isn't counted as "productive" by the government. And even though everyone you talk to pays lip service to motherhood ("Oh, yes! It's the most important work there is!!"), that doesn't really seem to be codified in our society, does it?

    Well, I've worked quite a few jobs in my time, and I can say without a doubt in my mind that being a stay-at-home mother is DEFINITELY work. To be sure, most of it is fairly menial labor.

    But the implication of focusing on women at high-profile (high-cost!) universities who plan to become stay-at-home mothers is that somehow they will be "wasting" their education by doing so.

    Truth of the matter is, I use no less of my college education raising kids than I did when I worked outside the home AND it is pretty fulfilling work. What else are we supposed to be getting a higher education *for*, if not that?

This said, here's the article in question:

Many Women at Elite Colleges Set Career Path to Motherhood
By LOUISE STORY

Cynthia Liu is precisely the kind of high achiever Yale wants: smart (1510 SAT), disciplined (4.0 grade point average), competitive (finalist in Texas oratory competition), musical (pianist), athletic (runner) and altruistic (hospital volunteer). And at the start of her sophomore year at Yale, Ms. Liu is full of ambition, planning to go to law school.

So will she join the long tradition of famous Ivy League graduates? Not likely. By the time she is 30, this accomplished 19-year-old expects to be a stay-at-home mom.

"My mother's always told me you can't be the best career woman and the best mother at the same time," Ms. Liu said matter-of-factly. "You always have to choose one over the other."

At Yale and other top colleges, women are being groomed to take their place in an ever more diverse professional elite. It is almost taken for granted that, just as they make up half the students at these institutions, they will move into leadership roles on an equal basis with their male classmates.

There is just one problem with this scenario: many of these women say that is not what they want.

Many women at the nation's most elite colleges say they have already decided that they will put aside their careers in favor of raising children. Though some of these students are not planning to have children and some hope to have a family and work full time, many others, like Ms. Liu, say they will happily play a traditional female role, with motherhood their main commitment.

Much attention has been focused on career women who leave the work force to rear children. What seems to be changing is that while many women in college two or three decades ago expected to have full-time careers, their daughters, while still in college, say they have already decided to suspend or end their careers when they have children.

"At the height of the women's movement and shortly thereafter, women were much more firm in their expectation that they could somehow combine full-time work with child rearing," said Cynthia E. Russett, a professor of American history who has taught at Yale since 1967. "The women today are, in effect, turning realistic."

Dr. Russett is among more than a dozen faculty members and administrators at the most exclusive institutions who have been on campus for decades and who said in interviews that they had noticed the changing attitude.

Many students say staying home is not a shocking idea among their friends. Shannon Flynn, an 18-year-old from Guilford, Conn., who is a freshman at Harvard, says many of her girlfriends do not want to work full time.

"Most probably do feel like me, maybe even tending toward wanting to not work at all," said Ms. Flynn, who plans to work part time after having children, though she is torn because she has worked so hard in school.

"Men really aren't put in that position," she said.

Uzezi Abugo, a freshman at the University of Pennsylvania who hopes to become a lawyer, says she, too, wants to be home with her children at least until they are in school.

"I've seen the difference between kids who did have their mother stay at home and kids who didn't, and it's kind of like an obvious difference when you look at it," said Ms. Abugo, whose mother, a nurse, stayed home until Ms. Abugo was in first grade.

While the changing attitudes are difficult to quantify, the shift emerges repeatedly in interviews with Ivy League students, including 138 freshman and senior females at Yale who replied to e-mail questions sent to members of two residential colleges over the last school year.

The interviews found that 85 of the students, or roughly 60 percent, said that when they had children, they planned to cut back on work or stop working entirely. About half of those women said they planned to work part time, and about half wanted to stop work for at least a few years.

Two of the women interviewed said they expected their husbands to stay home with the children while they pursued their careers. Two others said either they or their husbands would stay home, depending on whose career was furthest along.

The women said that pursuing a rigorous college education was worth the time and money because it would help position them to work in meaningful part-time jobs when their children are young or to attain good jobs when their children leave home.

In recent years, elite colleges have emphasized the important roles they expect their alumni - both men and women - to play in society.

For example, earlier this month, Shirley M. Tilghman, the president of Princeton University, welcomed new freshmen, saying: "The goal of a Princeton education is to prepare young men and women to take up positions of leadership in the 21st century. Of course, the word 'leadership' conjures up images of presidents and C.E.O.'s, but I want to stress that my idea of a leader is much broader than that."

She listed education, medicine and engineering as other areas where students could become leaders.

In an e-mail response to a question, Dr. Tilghman added: "There is nothing inconsistent with being a leader and a stay-at-home parent. Some women (and a handful of men) whom I have known who have done this have had a powerful impact on their communities."

Yet the likelihood that so many young women plan to opt out of high-powered careers presents a conundrum.

"It really does raise this question for all of us and for the country: when we work so hard to open academics and other opportunities for women, what kind of return do we expect to get for that?" said Marlyn McGrath Lewis, director of undergraduate admissions at Harvard, who served as dean for coeducation in the late 1970's and early 1980's.

It is a complicated issue and one that most schools have not addressed. The women they are counting on to lead society are likely to marry men who will make enough money to give them a real choice about whether to be full-time mothers, unlike those women who must work out of economic necessity.

It is less than clear what universities should, or could, do about it. For one, a person's expectations at age 18 are less than perfect predictors of their life choices 10 years later. And in any case, admissions officers are not likely to ask applicants whether they plan to become stay-at-home moms.

University officials said that success meant different things to different people and that universities were trying to broaden students' minds, not simply prepare them for jobs.

"What does concern me," said Peter Salovey, the dean of Yale College, "is that so few students seem to be able to think outside the box; so few students seem to be able to imagine a life for themselves that isn't constructed along traditional gender roles."

There is, of course, nothing new about women being more likely than men to stay home to rear children.

According to a 2000 survey of Yale alumni from the classes of 1979, 1984, 1989 and 1994, conducted by the Yale Office of Institutional Research, more men from each of those classes than women said that work was their primary activity - a gap that was small among alumni in their 20's but widened as women moved into their prime child-rearing years. Among the alumni surveyed who had reached their 40's, only 56 percent of the women still worked, compared with 90 percent of the men.

A 2005 study of comparable Yale alumni classes found that the pattern had not changed. Among the alumni who had reached their early 40's, just over half said work was their primary activity, compared with 90 percent of the men. Among the women who had reached their late 40's, some said they had returned to work, but the percentage of women working was still far behind the percentage of men.

A 2001 survey of Harvard Business School graduates found that 31 percent of the women from the classes of 1981, 1985 and 1991 who answered the survey worked only part time or on contract, and another 31 percent did not work at all, levels strikingly similar to the percentages of the Yale students interviewed who predicted they would stay at home or work part time in their 30's and 40's.

What seems new is that while many of their mothers expected to have hard-charging careers, then scaled back their professional plans only after having children, the women of this generation expect their careers to take second place to child rearing.

"It never occurred to me," Rebecca W. Bushnell, dean of the School of Arts and Sciences at the University of Pennsylvania, said about working versus raising children. "Thirty years ago when I was heading out, I guess I was just taking it one step at a time."

Dr. Bushnell said young women today, in contrast, are thinking and talking about part-time or flexible work options for when they have children. "People have a heightened awareness of trying to get the right balance between work and family."

Sarah Currie, a senior at Harvard, said many of the men in her American Family class last fall approved of women's plans to stay home with their children.

"A lot of the guys were like, 'I think that's really great,' " Ms. Currie said. "One of the guys was like, 'I think that's sexy.' Staying at home with your children isn't as polarizing of an issue as I envision it is for women who are in their 30's now."

For most of the young women who responded to e-mail questions, a major factor shaping their attitudes seemed to be their experience with their own mothers, about three out of five of whom did not work at all, took several years off or worked only part time.

"My stepmom's very proud of my choice because it makes her feel more valuable," said Kellie Zesch, a Texan who graduated from the University of North Carolina two years ago and who said that once she had children, she intended to stay home for at least five years and then consider working part time. "It justified it to her, that I don't look down on her for not having a career."

Similarly, students who are committed to full-time careers, without breaks, also cited their mothers as influences. Laura Sullivan, a sophomore at Yale who wants to be a lawyer, called her mother's choice to work full time the "greatest gift."

"She showed me what it meant to be an amazing mother and maintain a career," Ms. Sullivan said.

Some of these women's mothers, who said they did not think about these issues so early in their lives, said they were surprised to hear that their college-age daughters had already formed their plans.

Emily Lechner, one of Ms. Liu's roommates, hopes to stay home a few years, then work part time as a lawyer once her children are in school.

Her mother, Carol, who once thought she would have a full-time career but gave it up when her children were born, was pleasantly surprised to hear that. "I do have this bias that the parents can do it best," she said. "I see a lot of women in their 30's who have full-time nannies, and I just question if their kids are getting the best."

For many feminists, it may come as a shock to hear how unbothered many young women at the nation's top schools are by the strictures of traditional roles.

"They are still thinking of this as a private issue; they're accepting it," said Laura Wexler, a professor of American studies and women's and gender studies at Yale. "Women have been given full-time working career opportunities and encouragement with no social changes to support it.

"I really believed 25 years ago," Dr. Wexler added, "that this would be solved by now."

Angie Ku, another of Ms. Liu's roommates who had a stay-at-home mom, talks nonchalantly about attending law or business school, having perhaps a 10-year career and then staying home with her children.

"Parents have such an influence on their children," Ms. Ku said. "I want to have that influence. Me!"

She said she did not mind if that limited her career potential.

"I'll have a career until I have two kids," she said. "It doesn't necessarily matter how far you get. It's kind of like the experience: I have tried what I wanted to do."

Ms. Ku added that she did not think it was a problem that women usually do most of the work raising kids.

"I accept things how they are," she said. "I don't mind the status quo. I don't see why I have to go against it."

After all, she added, those roles got her where she is.

"It worked so well for me," she said, "and I don't see in my life why it wouldn't work."

This discussion was created by bethanie (675210) for no Foes, but now has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Article: "Many Women...Set Career Path to Motherhood" More

Article: "Many Women...Set Career Path to Motherhood"

Comments Filter:
  • ...is when people ask what my wife does. I tell the person that my wife is a stay-at-home Mom. "Oh. So... She doesn't work, then," is their reply.

    Oh, how more wrong could they possibly BE?!?

    My wife does many things, including (but certainly not limited to!) the following hats:
    • Chef (She does the cooking. I have the gut to prove it.)
    • Teacher (She home-schools my two oldest boys.)
    • Doctor (Loosely, that is; she takes care of the rest of the family when we're sick, and when the problem is beyond anything t
    • Well, I can't speak directly for your wife, but I can assure you that I am ALWAYS delighted to receive any positive feedback Hubby has to offer. I imagine your appreciation is similarly appreciated. :-)

      ....Bethanie....
    • Hon, you forgot: Secretary: I make all appointments and file any paperwork, Accountant: I balance the checkbook and pay the bills, Maid: Cleaning, Handyman: do minor repairs and painting in house, Barber: cut hair of children and hubby and several other extended family members, Laundress: wash, iron and put away all clothing, Diplomat: who else could stop you and my mother from killing each other? ;) , Travel agent: plans family vactions, Sleuth: finds lost and missing objects, eg socks, library
      • YEAH!!

        Someone else found a good one, too!!

        T'sW, that was really beautiful. :-) Thanks for poppin' up in my journal. Come back ANY time, darlin'!

        ....Bethanie....
  • Why is it considered "work" if a woman leaves her children with another caregiver to go work for someone else (maybe even caring for other women's children!), but raising one's children oneself is NOT?

    This is sort of like the Stallmanist squabbling about "free" -- the word "work" means different things in different contexts. Caring for one's own children is "work" in one usage, obviously, but not in another. Just like making french fries is work when done at McDonalds but not at home.

    Truth of the matter i

    • Critical consumerism is a good thing to use when evaluating colleges. After all, a college degree, when it boils down to it, IS a product that one is buying. One would hope to get full value for one's dollar. I reviewed [slashdot.org] elsewhere some of the value I derived from my pseudo-Ivy League degree.

      But from the impression I got, a good 80% or so of the folks who attend schools like Harvard or Yale are the kinds of folks who don't really have to worry about getting precisely $100K out of their "investment" in a col
    • Seriously. Content-free "Many" articles based solely on anecdote are a NYTimes favorite, particularly on slow news days (read it some New Year's Day for the worst).

      Many readers of the Times wish that a few of the stories would suck less than this one.

  • I'm split on the topic. On the positive side, it's nice to know there will be a next generation despite gay marriage and alternative lifestyles and abortion. On the negative side- elite colleges have lots of women looking for a husband to take care of them? WTF are they in college for if they intend to never use the education? Are they only going to catch a husband to begin with?
    • Jaded answer: Because catching a husband doesn't mean anything anymore. Half of those women will end up divorced - at which time having an education will be a very, very useful thing.

      But besides that - as far as I'm concerned, the link between my education and my job are only vaguely related. I chose to pursue a higher education because I like to better myself as a person, and because I'm trying to live my life in the best way I know how - I'm happy that I've managed to base a good career on top of that f
      • Jaded answer: Because catching a husband doesn't mean anything anymore. Half of those women will end up divorced - at which time having an education will be a very, very useful thing.

        Those who marry for love alone- get what they deserve. Hmm- I think I made that point in a JE on gay marriage.

        But besides that - as far as I'm concerned, the link between my education and my job are only vaguely related. I chose to pursue a higher education because I like to better myself as a person, and because I'm tryi
    • Pardon me, but exactly how do you define "using" one's education?

      Is there a minimum salary required to qualify as useful in society? (And whatever shall we do with those who don't quite measure up?!)

      Is exposure to ideas, literature, philosophy, science, etc. WASTED on a woman who will do nothing with that knowledge but perhaps share it with her offspring?

      What about women who get a college education, go out and spend about 5 years in the job market (where they THEN meet their husband) and then basicall
      • One can be educated without spending money on a formal college education. Granted, I might not have the best job in the world, but I'm on the path to advancement and the only degree I have is from the School of Hard Knocks.

        I'm not saying people aren't worthy of a formal education if they're going to be a stay at home mom or dad, but career choice IS something to think about before spending the family fortune on an ivy league education when you aren't going to use that prestigious sheepskin to get a job at
      • Pardon me, but exactly how do you define "using" one's education?

        If I'm going at the same rate as how I consider myself to be failing at it- at a minimum being able to have a savings account equal to tuition + books + interest after a few years. After all, that's what you would have had if you had put the money in the bank instead.

        Is there a minimum salary required to qualify as useful in society? (And whatever shall we do with those who don't quite measure up?!)

        Nope- there's just a minimum balance
        • what did you get from that education beyond a ton of debt?

          After a 3-year college career (through strategic application of AP credits and taking a heavier-than-standard courseload) at an Ivy League [sister school -- there are some who quibble that they don't count, but they certainly cost just as much] college, I had my college loans paid off entirely (including those that my parents had taken out) within 5.5 years, or to put it into more life-relative terms, a couple months after I got married. During th
          • After a 3-year college career (through strategic application of AP credits and taking a heavier-than-standard courseload) at an Ivy League [sister school -- there are some who quibble that they don't count, but they certainly cost just as much] college, I had my college loans paid off entirely (including those that my parents had taken out) within 5.5 years, or to put it into more life-relative terms, a couple months after I got married. During that time I never earned more than $30K/year.

            Ok, so you're sm
  • I read this article yesterday and have been batting around the idea of writing a blog about it. I did have a long (IRL) discussion about it last night.

    What I don't understand is twofold: 1) why women assume that they have to be the ones to take care of the kids; and 2) why they're making these assumptions way before society dictates that they need to (when they're married or planning to get married and they discuss the prospects of having kids with their husband.)

    It seems silly to me. I've made more money a
    • Exactly. What really got under my skin was the line about women feeling they have to stay at home to be the best mom possible. Well what about the dads who work and therefore can't be the best dads? How about they both work and split taking care of their offspring?
      • Non-sexist students were less likely to answer the Times' leading questions in the first place.

      • Re:Assumptions. (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Some Woman ( 250267 ) *
        I don't even bother talking about this anymore, ever since I had two consecutive journal entries on feminism that garnered over 80 comments each, many arguing that women and women alone are uniquely suited to rearing children.

        But since the floodgates have been opened by somebody who people are less likely to flame than myself, I will point to an anecdote from Some Guy: At the time of his birth, his mother was a highly paid head nurse who loved her job and her independence. His dad was a self-employed lawy
        • SW, people don't flame you because you're you.

          We flame you because you're wrong.

          (Said with love, respect, admiration, and tongue planted firmly in cheek.)

          ....Bethanie....
          • Actually, I think it has more to do with me being young and female. People here very rarely take me seriously. Or maybe there some other reason that a certain person was lecturing me on the risks involved in getting a joint cell phone plan with my partner of (at the time) 6 years. This place is filled with people who love being paternal. Maybe they wouldn't take it out on me so much if they quit their jobs and stayed home with the kids.

            See how I started off in left field, and veered right back on topic?
            • First of all, you gotta ask yourself -- is it just you, or is it EVERYONE? Hopefully we don't take each other TOO seriously around here. That's just not fun.

              Second, I feel your pain. I *so* remember being in your position. It's totally fucked up, but anyone younger than 30 is just considered a "kid." And it's even more pronounced for women, who are generally treated fairly dismissively, anyway!

              As if there's something magical that happens the last night you're 29 and you wake up the next day with some pa
    • I got a question for ya:

      Why do you assume that women who stay home to take care of the kids have simply assumed that they are the proper ones to do so?

      Are there any circumstances under which you could change your frame of reference to be willing to believe that women who have chosen to be stay-at-home mothers have actually considered their options and alternatives, and arrived at the decision that, yea verily, they DO want to be the ones at home?

      And what is wrong with young women, pre-marriage, having
      • "Why do you assume that women who stay home to take care of the kids have simply assumed that they are the proper ones to do so?"

        From the article: "My mother's always told me you can't be the best career woman and the best mother at the same time," Ms. Liu said matter-of-factly. "You always have to choose one over the other."

        What do we know about this girl? She's obviously smart, but not yet married, and only 19 years old. Yet she's already made the decision to choose motherhood over a job... because her mo
        • From the article: "My mother's always told me you can't be the best career woman and the best mother at the same time," Ms. Liu said matter-of-factly. "You always have to choose one over the other."

          Well, that was a quote taken from a 19-y.o. girl, and probably chosen because it is pretty sensational. Helps reinforce the idea that there must be something very silly and superficial about women who would choose, in spite of being very well-equipped to accomplish "great things," to stay at home to raise chil

        • You are more sexist than any person I know. How do you like that?

          I don't care about the gender of the president. If they do a good job, great, if not, bummer, next time don't elect them.

          As far as I am concerned with raising kids, until a man has the same super powers a woman does he's not nearly as well equipped in the early stages to raise the child. Certainly after a couple years a man can raise a child, but until then a woman is more effective. Also, seeing how men are unable to carry the child and g
          • I'm going to pull out two quotes from what you just wrote:

            "...until a man has the same super powers a woman does he's not nearly as well equipped in the early stages to raise the child. Certainly after a couple years a man can raise a child, but until then a woman is more effective."

            And...

            "You simpley (sp) need to stop paying attention to gender (except ofcourse in places that it matters)."

            Okay. First of all, there is no statistical analysis that says that women, other than having biological functions desig
        • But in a way, you CAN'T have both - a woman (or a man, for that matter) who chooses to work outside the home after having children is making the decision to have someone else spend more time with their children than they do themselves as parents.

          Add it up.

          My 3-year-old son gets up at 6:30 am. He is awake until 1:00 pm, when he takes a two to three hour nap. Assuming he gets up at 3:30 and is awake until his bedtime at 8:30, that gives us 6.5 hours in the morning and 5 hours in the evening, for a total of
  • I think it is a great article, thanks for posting it. I believe women at home are indeed working, and it's definitely a cultural / political thing to call it something else. Ever since the women's movement of the 50's I think a stay-at-home mom role has been frowned upon. Even in elementary school we are taught how women and men are not / should not be different.

    Nevertheless, I think a stay-at-home mom is totally honorable. If we could afford it, my wife would prefer to be at home 100%- instead she is work
    • If being a stay-at-home mom is honorable (it is), why not a stay-at-home dad? Is it just because you think "Women tend to be more relational and nurturing"? If so, why not try to be as well?

      (Disclosure: I don't have kids, so I can't speak about what I would do in this case.)

      • You know how pissed off I'd be if someone else tried to come in and do my job? Someone who just assumed, "Oh, well it's easy enough, ANYONE can do it!"?

        No, not just ANYONE can be a stay-at-home parent. Most men aren't up to the task. Many WOMEN aren't up to it, either.

        There's nothing prejudicial in what glh has to say. He speaks the truth. Women (in general -- not specifically for each and EVERY individual [SW]) ARE more nurturing. Our bodies and BRAINS actually CHANGE when we become pregnant and give b
        • Most men aren't up to the task.

          This comment preaches about not making assumptions and yet that's the very thing you do.

          Who are you justifying all this to Bethanie? Yourself?

          We get it, you're a stay at home mom, and it's damned hard work. You love your kids very much and wouldn't want anyone else to raise them.

          Anyone who reads your journal knows what an awesome caring mom you are to your kids. There's never been any doubt. And yet, anytime some newspaper brings up a point on child rearing, you come swing
          • I lied, one more last thing: I honestly believe for the majority of people out there it should come down to economics. Who makes more money? Who can work at home instead of out in the business world more easily? I can tell you right now if/when Jen and I have kids, she's going to be the one staying home. Why? Because she makes about half what I do. If I quit my job and stayed at home, we'd be destitute. And them's the facts, Jack. If she made more than I did, well, you can bet your ass I'd be the one stayi
          • Em, why you take my quote so far out of context like that? I followed it IMMEDIATELY by saying the same thing about women.

            You know what the hardest part of being a stay-at-home mom is? That you don't get to get AWAY from it. EVER. And you don't get feedback. And your job is NEVER done. And the shittiest parts of the job are appreciated the least.

            Anyway. You've heard enough of my talking about motherhood. Now I've got to address why it is that I bother to write about it.

            Why do you write about the game y

            • Anyway. You've heard enough of my talking about motherhood.

              Not even close. I think the journals about kiddo and squirt and the stuff you guys do together are awesome.

              I think reading about your child learning to read is awesome.

              Obviously, you have the right to write about whatever the hell you want to. I was merely making the observation that it seems you have a real chip on your shoulder because of some (misguided) people's opinions that stay at home moms and dads have it easy. Anyone who has ever even b
              • I know of not one single person who thinks this way. Seriously.

                Maybe they do, maybe they don't. Anyone who asks a question, "Does your wife work?" thinks that way, at some level. When "staying at home" is distinguished from "working," that's representative of the dichotomy.

                A chip on my shoulder? You might be right. But mainly because I remember being on the other side of this scenario and how wrong I was. :-)

                And Em, you don't have to apologize for coming off as "harsh" to me. I may be a girl, but I a
  • "I really believed 25 years ago," Dr. Wexler added, "that this would be solved by now."

    What the hell? Like stay at home moms is a friggin disease or math problem that needs to be eradicated of solved? Arrogant jackass. Oh no! You don't control other people's lives! Better pass some more laws and try to use the government as your stooge to force your world view on every one else because you are so much more enlightened than they are.

    jason
  • And his comments were:

    Re:

    "It really does raise this question for all of us and for the country: when we work so hard to open academics and other opportunities for women, what kind of return do we expect to get for that?" said Marlyn McGrath Lewis, director of undergraduate admissions at Harvard, who served as dean for coeducation in the late 1970's and early 1980's"

    Uh....

    Not having our children raised by morons or slaves? Not having to be married to morons or slaves?
    Being able to come home at night and enj

    • Thank you. :-)

      ....Bethanie....
    • My mother graduated summa with a math major. She had job offers, but chose to be a stay-at-home mom. I think that she did a great job. Her expectations of us were a bit high - always a good thing. :-)

      And as to what I want in a partner these days - interests and passions are the key things. Someone intelligent and challenging.

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