More Oblivion Re-Rating Fallout 279
The ESRB has a retort to the criticism leveled against it after rating Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion Mature. The move has required Bethesda Softworks to pull all of the current stock of the game to relabel. From the GameDailyBiz article: "When we brought the topless female images to Bethesda Softworks' attention, they confirmed that the art file existed in a fully rendered form in the code on the game disc. The ESRB's investigation found that the mod allowed users to change the filename for the female character mesh in order to access the art file that was created by Bethesda. While true that a modification was required to access this file, the changes we implemented last year - expanding our disclosure rules to include locked-out content - were made to prevent these kinds of situations" Via Cathode Tan, who has his own commentary, an opinion piece by John Romero has yet another view of the complicated situation.
movies v. videogames (Score:5, Insightful)
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:movies v. videogames (Score:5, Insightful)
They're not the same organization, not controlled by the same people, not rating the same media, nothin'. They don't necessarily have the same leadership or employees.
To consumers, I'm sure, media is media is media, and consistent standards and enforcement should be obvious. But consistent standards and enforcement is not required and in the minds of some might be anti-competetive.
You expect consistency where there is no reason (other than in your expectations) for there to be any. The only place to enforce that "media-is-media" ratings consistency is government, and that's the LAST thing any sane consumer or producer wants.
Re:movies v. videogames (Score:5, Insightful)
Pointing to that as an example of ill intent by Bethseda is just flat-out irresponsible by those who are arguably supposed to be industry insiders.
Complicated Situation? (Score:4, Insightful)
Far more offensive than pixellated boobies. Hell, the kids are likely on the internet in the first place to find out about the hack. If kids aren't already corrupted by all of the boobies [and worse!] on the internet, some scantly clad model isn't going to harm them.
Does anyone know the background? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Changing the rating (Score:5, Insightful)
This will change things... (Score:2, Insightful)
This is getting crazy (Score:4, Insightful)
While not necessarily right (and maybe not on point), it is absurd to think that the difference between 'T' and 'M' is going to make a difference in who buys these games. Now, the kids (I actually do not know any kids who play ES IV) just have to get their parents, who have shown total disregard for what their children are doing (see complaints about movie, television and game ratings...and the recent "myspace scare"), will blatantly ignore the ratings and purchase it anyway.
I would love to see some game makers stop using the ESRB all-together. Like the MPAA movie rating system, it is completely voluntary and even if a few places won't carry an un-rated game, I am sure plenty of legitimate video game retailers will be more then glad to sell such a game. Unfortunately, this probably will not happen because I would imagine that some of the larger retailers would be the ones refusing.
Re:Does anyone know the background? (Score:3, Insightful)
The bigger issue at play here is why is everybody such a fucking prude. Its womans breasts, for crying out loud, what a freaking repressed society. Games should be rated for violence, and graphic sex, but boobies that can't be seen without a hack? Holy fuck, what is wrong with parents?!
Re:Changing the rating (Score:3, Insightful)
Obviously it depends on the context, but on the whole, you can stir up some trouble by mixing women (clothed or not) and violence.
Take a game, replace all the killable Monsters/Nazis/bad guys with women and watch the fury boil over.
Re:This is getting crazy (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Decent underwear (Score:3, Insightful)
My god, its 2006, why is nudity even an issue in media?
Breasts must be kept secret! (Score:5, Insightful)
Face it, any kid with access to the Internet will find a way to view naked women, if he/she so desires. Kids are smart. They have friends with printers. The secret is out, women and girls have different parts than boys do.
If you want to make sure your kids grow up to be well-adjusted, talk to them and explain things. Make sure they have plenty of parental attention and affection. Tell them they can always come to you and talk about things. Don't let kids learn all about sex from their peers.
Oh, and teach them that there are more important matters for people to worry about than whether or not electronic models have breasts.
Re:Romero (of all people) misses the point entirel (Score:2, Insightful)
I figured another slashdotter would comment on that part of Romero's post.
Modders are not screwing the industry; if anything is in this case, (and I really think the whole thing is being blown out of proportion) it's the fact that a depiction of female anatomy which the majority of users will never see is enough to warrant a change in rating. It. Is. A. Nipple. Jesus.
Neither are modders under any obligation to "help the industry". Game studios may well release data in the hope that mods will help their game sell more, but I doubt that very many modders have as their primary motivation a desire to help the studio, and I doubt that anyone but the most blinkered suits really thinks they do. Except Romero, of course.
Teen: Let's Beat it To Death While We're At It (Score:5, Insightful)
1) Play Oblivion for 1 hour, you'll find zombies with their guts hanging out. The player is rewarded for bashing them MANY MANY times as they spray blood all over the walls. I don't see how Bethesda could have "hid" this from the ratings board - it shows up within minutes of play.
2) Talk to the various characters in the first town in the game, and you'll find out there's a "secret" guild that will let you in if you MURDER someone. In fact, you are very often rewarded for criminal activity in Oblivion. Going to jail is REQUIRED to complete at least one of the quests in the game (probably more, I don't know).
3) A nipple shows up in a downloadable mod, and OMG! change the rating to "Mature".
This isn't about Oblivion being rated "M", it's about the reason provided for the change. "More gore than initially disclosed" is ridiculous, because the game is chock full of gore and it's central to the gameplay itself. When the ESRB initially reviewed the game, did they even play it? My take is that Oblivion probably should've been rated "M" from the start. The game contains mature subject matter and it was no secret, plain and simple.
Are American Teens exposed to graphic violence through other means? Yes, certainly.
Are young children? I am reading the classic book, Farmer Boy, of the famed Little House on the Prarie series to my Kindergartner. In this book, the "older boys" in the school house gain reputation for "thrashing" teachers into submission with their fists. The replacement teacher is heralded for subdueing his attackers with a whip.
Does that make it a "good thing"(TM)? Nope. (see also: "Shikata ga nai")
Can a Teen process violence in entertainment and separate such depictions from the morality requisite to be a good citizen? Yes. "Mortal Combat" was a popular morality target in my teenage years, yet I never attempted a "Finishing Move" on any of my schoolmates, and I've grown up to be a good citizen by most accounts.
Can responsible, involved parents allow their brood to slash video game foes for fun? Yes. I enjoy such entertainment, and I'm sure my young'uns will too. Human beings are violent (see also: "history of civilization"). It'll be my decision to make concerning their maturity approaching such subject matter.
If my teen sees a booby, will all my hard parenting work unravel? God, I hope not. That would surely mean I'd done a terrible job educating my own on the birds and the bees. Believe it or not, I'd rather my kids look at boobies than bash skulls. Interest in sex is not unnatural (see also: "World Population").
ESRB claims the change is due to a lack of disclosure. Under normal circumstances, that would be an acceptable reason in my mind. However, the gratuitous and obvious violence in Oblivion calls into question the criteria by which the game was rated IN THE FIRST PLACE. The ESRB lacks credibility, and this debacle won't help that issue, that is certain.
HYPOCRACY (Score:5, Insightful)
Seeing a pair of tits seems a bit trivial, yes?
To the hypocrites at the ESRB who seem to think violence is fine and nudity is a crime... rethink your policies, and rethink your hidden agendas. Nudity is not sex, which could be misconstrued as a mature theme. Every female on the planet has a vagina and breasts. Every male has a penis. These are anatomical features. Science. Fact. They are not the subversive agendas being pushed by conservatives to have us back in the social dark ages.
I am a player of Oblivion and I don't think for a second that any of the fantasy provided by this game is not enough for a 13 year old to grasp. By rating it mature, we're taking a modification to a game and making a big mountain out of a mole hill.
Let's boil this down, folks. I'd be much more worried about my 12 year old kid murding all the townfolk, supporting the daedric lords, playing out their virtual life as a vampric character. Not that there is anything wrong with the fantasy of any of those, but I'd want to make sure they understood the difference.
The ESRB made a mistake in the first place. (Score:2, Insightful)
As a parent this is the kind of game that I would want to know my teen was playing. I probably would not mind them playing it, but I would want to talk to them about it.
The whole naked mod thing is silly. If the logic they are using were to be followed then my web browser needs an AO rating. The ESRB should have just owned up to over looking the violence.
I need the US Gov't to raise my kids! (Score:5, Insightful)
That is exactly what I need for my kids, the US Gov't writing some helpful laws to this end. Perhaps they could help by also removing those extremely violent newscasts on the cable and network news outlets. The newspapers too. They are FILLED with reports of violence and war that are to the detriment of my children. Can you believe the SCHOOL in my hometown also teaches children about sometimes very gruesome and unsettling violence in history class, and I need laws to stop this from harming them. I can't do it all!
A good law to draft would be to transport all of my children to some sort of government educational facility, where they can learn to serve their country by putting down the violent people of the world through judicious use of lethal force. In this Utopian society, there would be no sex, because it is "dirty" and "very bad", and the law would provide men in jack boots to catch the teens "in the backseat trying to pick her locks", and they could "send them back to mother in a cardboard box".
I need help with the music out there these days too. Everyone knows the only good use for so-called "Heavy Metal" music is in psychological warfare.
As for games, we need wholesome, morality-based games. America's Army could teach my kids about responsible engagement, for instance. In that game, everyone plays as Americans! They only shoot "terrorist-looking" people, the way it should be.
And offensive movies should be re-cut. Take the terrific job done on "Brazil" (the love endures all ending). That movie was a real downer before some fine studio exec had it corrected.
Re:Changing the rating (Score:4, Insightful)
Why is nudity considered mature? (Score:3, Insightful)
-matthew
Re:Decent underwear (Score:3, Insightful)
Still, that wouldn't have prevented this. As mentioned many other times already, the mod involves pasting a barechested male texture over the female body size. I'm sure the same thing could be done with any of the Resident Evil or Dynasty Warrior titles. Are they all to be relabelled "mature" now?
Re:Exactly what is this file? (Score:2, Insightful)
There's the shipped male-torso-with-nipple that is used on female bodies but covered with a bra. All that's needed to use this one is replace the bra texture with nothing; so, it's in the game, but it's not actually meant for female bodies (it's got everything in the wrong places).
Then, other modders have reskinned the female torso to make "proper" breasts. This requires installing a mod to override the textures.
Re:Why is nudity considered mature? (Score:3, Insightful)
Even ignorning that, the question still stands, what are we protecting children from? What is it about nudity that might harm a child psychologically?
What is even more stupid is how we differential between bare skin and clothing when the clothing is skin tight. Few people have any problem with bathing suits, right? You take you kid to teh beach and there are men and women walking aroudn with barely a spandex stitch covering things. What else is there to see? A nipple? A butt crack? Some pubic hair! Oooo! The horror! Not that I necessarily WANT to see everyone naked, because I don't. But that is only because I find that most people look ugly without cloths on. It certainly isn't shameful or offensive. And it most certainly isn't a negative influence on a child.
-matthew
Re:Does anyone know the background? (Score:1, Insightful)
Then along came the (predictable) third-party hack that hides the clothing, and the rest is history.
This decision by the ESRB is knee-jerk, panicky, and clueless. They should reverse the decision and publicly apologize to Bethesda.
Re:Does anyone know the background? (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Cruel! (Score:3, Insightful)
Fine by me. Bethesda is one of the few companies I'd trust to understand that "Mature" is not a synonym for soft-core pornography.
You Guys Just Don't Get It (Score:1, Insightful)
Of course the ESRB made the right decision. Those of you who complain that they are being "big brother" are right, they are. But that's their job! It's not stopping you freaks out there from downloading or buying all of the porn games you want, it is just letting parents like myself know what is included in the game - so I can keep my kids away from that smut. Some of us responsible parents actually care about our kids still these days. So do your crap - this isn't stopping it. Just let us have the info to make good decisions.
If the file is there, its there. The fact still remains - there is a pornographic image on the CD. Though it may be slightly more difficult to access, the publisher has put it there. End of story.
seriously... (Score:2, Insightful)
I'm coming in late, and I sound like Flamebait... (Score:2, Insightful)
The people these ratings laws are designed for are fucking stupid. Look around you. Your 13 year old friends probably played Mortal Kombat, right? DOOM, tons of fighting games, some R rated movies... and how many of them are killers?
I played DOOM when I was, let's see... 12. Has it messed me up for life? Other than that I'm up at 2 in the morning posting about it to Slashdot, no, I can't say that it has.
So. These people don't know themselves. They don't know their kids. They don't trust humanity. They are, in the words of Frank Zappa, Big Stupid.
And the problem with bending over for Big Stupid is that Big Stupid is never happy. Their distrust of humanity runs infinitely deep, and they will always ask for something more. Something bigger. Something should be done - to help the CHILDREN!!. Every Big Stupid retard overflows with smug self-satisfaction - it's the QED of retard debate.
And anyway, the ESRB was created in panic and fear during the MK days - much like, oh, the PATRIOT Act. And laws and institutions that are created in a panicked, stupid uproar, as far as I can figure, are always destined to fail. The ESRB, the PATRIOT Act, the Hays Office (created during the wake of the Fatty Arbuckle sex scandal, basically sanitized all movies from the mid 1930s up until the 60s), Prohibition, contraception legislation - all created from fear. Fear of angry parents (who would hurt the videogame industry... how? Oh, by denying a few sales... sort of... uh... like what they're doing now?). Fear of TERRORISTS. Fear of looking scandalous. Fear of being scandalous. Fear of the Lord God in Heaven.
Since we can say "stop making laws that are merely reactions to fear" until we're blue in the face and nothing will change, how about something like... oh, how about attack these constructions (the ESRB, RIAA, what have you) not because they're stupid (because stupid is very, very hard to objectively ram home), but because they're un-American, un-Christian (hello, tolerance?), un-profitable, un-necessary, and finally, a hazard to our continued survival.
Violence on a computer screen harms no child.
So why regulate it? Fact is that the parents who are truly upset about this are already the type who keep Little Johnny free from TV, Nintendo, flouride, evolution, and sugary cereals, and are perfectly used to micro-managing. Then you have a large army of "WELL, THIS IS THE RIGHT PRINCIPLE!!" morons who are equally harmful to society - it sounds good to them, it sounds like something nice, something that should be done!
The ESRB is set up to protect the first group, with the nod and Positive Thoughts of the second group. And it's a fucking retarded disaster.
(Devil's Advocate: The suggestable, likely superstitious child that would be harmed from violence on a computer screen (harmed = affected beyond tears and the urge to look away) is a walking schizophrenic time-bomb anyway, and there comes a point where you learn that, sadly, nothing can be done to help - lest we all live in fear and subject every instance of our existance to the kid who can send us all to the cornfield.)
Anyway. I just needed to get that off my chest, I like the words I used, and so-- (one minute later) --and good lord I'm so glad I use Firefox - somehow I navigated away from this rant (possibly a bug? It happens in IE t