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One Big Bang, Or Many? 492

butterwise writes "From the Guardian Unlimited: 'The universe is at least 986 billion years older than physicists thought and is probably much older still, according to a radical new theory. The revolutionary study suggests that time did not begin with the big bang 14 billion years ago. This mammoth explosion which created all the matter we see around us, was just the most recent of many.'"
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One Big Bang, Or Many?

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  • by mapkinase ( 958129 ) on Friday May 05, 2006 @02:50PM (#15272161) Homepage Journal
    Fascinating? Yes.
    Mind-boggling? Yes.
    Good story to impress your wife or kids? Yes.

    Scientific? No.
  • Very Old theory (Score:5, Insightful)

    by paladinwannabe2 ( 889776 ) on Friday May 05, 2006 @02:54PM (#15272207)
    Scientists and Philosophers have been waving this theory around for at least 30 years. The problem in the past has always been that even though they really, really wanted this theory to be true, they didn't have any good evidence for it. As far as I can tell from TFA, that is still the case.
  • by packeteer ( 566398 ) <packeteer AT subdimension DOT com> on Friday May 05, 2006 @02:55PM (#15272216)
    It sounds to me like someone guessed the number 1 trillion (1,000 billion) as the age of the universe and now its being quoted as fact. You cant say the universe is 986 billion years older then previously thought becuase it makes people think your using an exact science becuase you are using exact numbers. This is sensationalist science at its worst.

    Whether or not the theory will hold up in the future nobody knows but as for right now everyone needs to remember this is a theory like any and decieving people into thinking its otherwise is unfair.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05, 2006 @02:55PM (#15272224)
    To me the universe seems to act as a giant recycling system, everything within it gets reused over and over creating what we see around us as the systems evolve, evidence of it exists all around us on this planet so it makes sense that it would be the same out there in other areas of our universe.
  • Re:what? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by hunterx11 ( 778171 ) <hunterx11@g[ ]l.com ['mai' in gap]> on Friday May 05, 2006 @02:58PM (#15272247) Homepage Journal
    I'm not an astro-physicist and have no data to back this up.

    Then why, pray tell, did you bother to enlighten us with your "theories?"

    Common sense told Aristotle that objects fall because they are trying to return to a natural state of rest. Common sense and intuition are ridiculously bad tools for scientific inquiry. Esthetically-pleasing deductions with no empirical evidence are even worse.

  • Re:Hindu Cosmology (Score:4, Insightful)

    by KefabiMe ( 730997 ) <garth@jhon[ ]com ['or.' in gap]> on Friday May 05, 2006 @03:05PM (#15272302) Journal

    Strange how this coincides with the theory of "Cosmic cycles" in Hinduism and other Vedic religions like Buddhism

    It's not strange at all. With many different religions and each religion having many different sects, how scientists describe how our universe works will seem similar to some religion somewhere.

    If you think about it, religion is one way for people to describe what is happening in the world around them.

    Personally, I say keep your faith and your science seperate.

  • by TopShelf ( 92521 ) on Friday May 05, 2006 @03:14PM (#15272385) Homepage Journal
    Well, the difference in explanations is obvious. In the first case (big bang, big crunch, rinse and repeat) they are referring to the standard big bang theory. The new theory (as far as TFA says) doesn't involve a crunch, just another big bang after the current matter in the universe dissipates.

    How that part works out would be an interesting read. One aspect of the duality that binds the various aspects of M-Theory is that for certain branches of the theory, what is true at one geometric scale n is true in the opposing theory at the scale 1/n. Perhaps they are using relationship to argue that complete dissipation in one perspective constitutes absolute concentration (i.e. a big crunch) from a different perspective.

    Beats me, I'm 15 years removed from my undergraduate physics courses, and I jumped ship on physics just before string theory started revving up big-time in the early 1990's.
  • Re:Yet... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by XxtraLarGe ( 551297 ) on Friday May 05, 2006 @03:20PM (#15272426) Journal
    You CAN wrap your mind around time NOT having a beginning?

    This is exactly the dilemma. You can't imagine absolutely nothing, but there's no reasonable explanation for existence either.

  • by misleb ( 129952 ) on Friday May 05, 2006 @03:20PM (#15272431)
    Well, if this property holds true for the universe, and eventually our universe will expand a whole lot and lead to a new bang, exactly where in the known universe will this bang occur?

    Everywhere.

    -matthew
  • Re:Very Old theory (Score:3, Insightful)

    by SetupWeasel ( 54062 ) on Friday May 05, 2006 @03:27PM (#15272501) Homepage
    Right now, astronomers have some serious blinders on literally and figuratively. There are very few places in the sky where we can actually see objects that are far enough away to have cosmological significance. Even then, we can only see that far and not further. Modern cosmology is based on a limited view of the universe.

    Now we are finding some crazy shit. Stuff doesn't move the way it is supposed to. The crazy double super secret invisible "cosmological constant" and "dark matter" sound more to me like modern day epicycles than actual scientific theory. The scientific community does not like people who rock the boat, because they like to be right. Competing theories are pushed to the wayside, and something as innocent as sugesting that this universe or a universe existed before us and may have caused what we see today is contriversial.

    I could be wrong about things like the cosmoligical constant and dark matter or any other crazy theory I have in my head. My problem is that there are very few healthy debates on any of these untouchable theories. What debates that do occur can jeopardize dissenters' positions and funding. Now is not a good time for science in my view.
  • by davidwr ( 791652 ) on Friday May 05, 2006 @03:28PM (#15272516) Homepage Journal
    Unless there is a way to test this theory, it's just yet-another-untestable-hypothesis, and belongs to the realm of philosophy and religion more than hard science.

    Let me know when they've got a good way to prove or disprove the hypothesis.

    After all, I can say the universe was created "in progress" 30 seconds ago, and you can neither prove nor disprove it. It's an untestable theory. Even if I am right, it's scientifically useless to take such a theory seriously as a scientific theory.
  • Re:what? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by hunterx11 ( 778171 ) <hunterx11@g[ ]l.com ['mai' in gap]> on Friday May 05, 2006 @03:36PM (#15272609) Homepage Journal
    Not even a hypothesis, actually. Valid hypotheses are falsifiable. "Nothing in nature has a true beginning and end, everything is part of a larger cycle" is not.

    There is nothing magical about scientists that separates them from non-scientists. Science is a method anyone can use. Fanciful statements about the grand order of things and how natural phenomena are governed by laws inferred from common sense, however, do not science make. We should accept whatever theory is most consistent with the evidence, with a degree of reservation proportional to said theory's contradictions or shortcomings, be they internal inconsistencies or empirical evidence that it cannot explain.

    Besides, if you want a common sense system to explain the universe, I recommend basing it on the Ptolemaic system [wikipedia.org]--at least that one has had some pretty good mileage.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05, 2006 @03:36PM (#15272611)
    look around, isn't the fact thet you are alive proof enough that there is some force inthe universerse muchmore powerful then anything you have ever experienced.

    No.
  • Re:Hindu Cosmology (Score:2, Insightful)

    by thePig ( 964303 ) <rajmohan_h@NOSPam.yahoo.com> on Friday May 05, 2006 @03:51PM (#15272776) Journal
    Proabably because Hinduism/Hindus is the religion/civilization where the concept of zero originated.
    Without zero (which basically implies -power of- ) one will be unable to think of any size bigger than say 10000 or so.

    Zero indeed is the greatest of inventions
  • Yeah, so? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Crazyscottie ( 947072 ) on Friday May 05, 2006 @03:52PM (#15272793)
    Just because it isn't scientific doesn't mean it isn't interesting news. Nor does it mean that the theory is necessarily bunk.
  • by ceoyoyo ( 59147 ) on Friday May 05, 2006 @04:17PM (#15273007)
    "It's just a theory, there's no proof" is a complete contradiction

    You mean "tautology." If it's a scientific theory then by definition it cannot be proved, only disproved.

    From the article it's hard to say whether this is a theory, a modification to an existing theory, or a hypothesis.

    A theory isn't just an accepted hypothesis, it's a descriptive edifice that lets you make predictions. Those predictions are hypotheses.
  • by internic ( 453511 ) on Friday May 05, 2006 @04:33PM (#15273163)

    I'm also curious about where these new "big bangs" occur, since the big bang in normal cosmology (i.e. the Friedman-Robertson-Walker based on General Relativity) happens everywhere, not in one particular place. It's not clear that that is the picture in this new theory. This actually sounds less like F-R-W cosmology and more like a steady state model that Fred Hoyle was pushing a while back.

    On to the point about providing an absolute reference frame, that might not be such a big issue. The difference here is between what's called weak lorentz symmetry breaking and strong lorentz symmetry breaking (if I'm not mistaken). Relativity says the laws of physics are the same in all frames, but it could be that one frame ends up being easily recognized, even though it doesn't have special laws (this is the weak sort of symmetry breaking). In fact, we already have this because of the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR). The CMBR defines the average rest frame of the observable Universe. On Earth, the CMBR looks blue shifted in one direction and redshifted in the opposite direction, because we're moving with respect to the CMBR rest frame. So, you could argue that if you get in your spaceship and turn on the thrusters until this redshift effect goes away, you'll really be "at rest" (that is, you'll be at rest in the average rest frame of matter in the universe). So there is a sort of sign post (for a particular velocity, not a particular position), but the laws of physics aren't any different in that frame, so this doesn't break relativity.

  • Re:No center? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by kdemetter ( 965669 ) on Friday May 05, 2006 @05:15PM (#15273458)
    actually , if the universe is infitily big , than every point in the universe is the center of that universe . There would be an infinite amount of centers. OK , i'm losing my mind here
  • by Ricken ( 797341 ) on Friday May 05, 2006 @07:48PM (#15274370)
    Quite cool, a few weeks ago I was thinking about the big bang and black holes, and that all life we know of goes in circles. So I kinda got the revolutionary idea that the "big bang" was not the first or the last big bang. I thought that black holes eventually grew so strong that they sucked in whole galaxies, and, ultimately the whole universe, and when that happened, when everything was in one single black hole, it would go BOOM! and everything would spread out again, just like the theorised big bang. Fun to find a similar theory :)

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