Fix Your Crashing X-Box 360 With String

mkraft writes "A gamer fed up with his new Xbox 360 crashing every 20 minutes has fixed the problem by raising the power supply off the ground with some string. Goldeneyemaster over at the GameSpot forums indicates that the main reason for his Xbox 360 freezing up is the power supply overheating. The solution is to lift the power supply off the floor and allow the air to circulate better around it."

Reminds me

[Bananatree3]

This reminds me of the massive original Xbox powercord recall...Seems like Microsoft has had some power control issues.... (hehe) ____________________-- Mirror for gamespot forums [mirrordot.org]

Re:Rubber feet

[mkraft]

The power supply for the XBox 360 is almost as large as the XBox 360 itself [imagelime.com]. Maybe the power supply should be stood on its side, but I doubt people are considering that when they go to use the XBox 360.

Re:Quality Repairs

[letxa2000]

Wouldn't it be easier and more reliable to buy a power supply that functions without overheating? As long as it provides the correct voltage and is rated at the correct number of amps, there's nothing special about a given power supply.

I had this problem with my Commodore 64

[Br._Fjordhr]

Back when I was in college I had a commodore 64 that tended to overheat. I ended up taking the power supply apart (the early ones could be opened) and C-clamping a big-piece-of-metal(tm) to it. This acted as a heat sink. My only thought here is that it seems that we should have come a way in product prerelease testing since then.

Re:All MS jokes aside

[thatguywhoiam]

It sounds like this one guy (is this the same one we heard about days ago?) just doesn't know how to properly ventilate electronics in the first place. Is he sticking it in some closed-off cabinet sitting between a cable box and a receiver or something?

I fail to see why this would be considered 'misuse' of the Xbox. It really ought to be able to live anywhere your stereo does. Especially with an external power brick that is dealing with much of the heat.

Re:Quality Repairs

[ZorinLynx]

Any decent power supply shouldn't have these problems.

If a power supply gets hot enough to fail under normal conditions, it's not a very efficient or well-designed power supply.

Modern switching power supplies should be able to function at temperature extremes without failing. Power supplies are mature technology; there's really no excuse for this.

Maybe MS should have gone with a well known high quality PSU maker like ASTEC for this.

-Z

Re:It crashes too

[IllForgetMyNickSoonA]

You might give this [heise.de] method a try. Brings Windows XP with SP2 down (first a short BSOD, followed by a reboot). Nothing to do with drivers and/or hardware problems.

This page is in german, but the HTML code can be seen with no problems. I managed to bring 2 out of 3 windows XP installations down by this trick (sometimes, you have to wait a little while before it crashes, but it most probably will)

that's odd, the PS doesn't get very hot...

[YesIAmAScript]

First of all, I want to mention I can run my Xbox 360 for a stonkin' forever without it crashing. I have taken a few steps though.

First of all, I separate the power supply from the 360. I have my 360 in a stereo cabinet, but I have the power supply behind the stereo cabinet on the floor. I did this because it was clear from the 24" power cable between the PS and 360 that MS intended this to be possible. Second of all, I cut some small holes in the back of my stereo cabinet for airflow. These are probably about 6 square inches total. Additionally, I don't close the cabinet completely, so I have some airflow out the front.

I also have been experimenting with fans just to see the effects. Here's a set of measurments I did with the front opening cracked a bit. This is the temperature in the stereo cabinet space (about 8 cubic feet) containg the 360.

0:00 - 73.4F (ambient)
0:30 - 89.4F
0:50 - 94.8F
1:10 - 98.1F
1:30 - 100.2F
1:50 - 101.7F
2:10 - 102.7F
2:30 - 103.5F

Then I turned on the fan in the cabinet and the temp dropped to 98.8F. With the fan on, I could close the front door completely and the temp still only rose to about 100F.

Clearly this thing is a heat monster! If I measure the temp at the output fan it, it has risen over 115F.

But, I have checked the power supply in back cursorily, and it just doesn't get all that hot on its own. This makes sense, given that if the PS is about 80% efficient, then only 50W is being dissapated by the PS back there, and 200W is being dissapated by the 360 in front.

So, although I haven't had any problems, my recommendation would be first of all, get your 360 out of that confined space. It just generates too much heat for that. Second of all, even in a semi-confined space, get the power supply away from the 360, preferably get it into its own "cooling zone".

For sure, do not put the power supply directly behind the 360 in any kind of smallish space! The 360 draws air in at the back, at the lower of the two fans (on the right if it is laying down). If you put the PS right there, it will not only block the airflow, making the 360 take in its own exhaust, but it will also heat up the intake air even further.

My guess is people who are having this problem, and don't have the 360 in a small, sealed space are mostly just putting the PS in a bad place, and putting it on strings, is just a complicated form of relocating it so it isn't there heating up the 360 intake air.

Re:It crashes too

[Anonymous Coward]

Thats not the fault of the OS.

I can bring down Linux and Mac OS X boxes in quite a similar way as well. Recursive fork()ing comes to mind as another trick that I've pulled to bring them down.

This trick will not work on a properly configured machine with limited user access and resource limits in place. You can hardly blame the OS for this.

Re:Leave it to Microsoft.

[Stupendoussteve]

In the summer it got up to the high 90's... it wasn't that it's too cold here. Maybe if they had some testers take it home to their apartments and let the kids play on it, instead of using it in an air conditioned compound, they would have had more luck.

Chances are they bought the supplies in....

[Ellis D. Tripp]

And never conducted real testing, because they relied on the QA from their power supply vendor.

The main reasons for the prevalence of external power supplies or "wall warts" are that they shift regulatory compliance (UL, CSA, TUV, or whatnot) onto a third party (the power supply vendor), and enable the same basic product to be sold worldwide with different external supplies provided to accomodate local variations in line voltage/frequency/receptacle type.

They've done worse before...

[garagekubrick]

You should contact the legal firm of Spiro Moss Barness, etc... They are one of many firms united in a class action lawsuit about the Thompson DVD drives that were used in the Xbox. Microsoft seem to have been aware of the lack of quality in these drives as later models used different manufacturers. Despite this, if you talk to their customer service reps, they continue to ask you if your discs are dirty despite the fact you tell them you just bought the damn game.

I don't give a rat's ass about Sony's problems. I'm here to ask about the awful consumer experience I had with my original Xbox and what exactly is the truth about this new product. Here are links that show what a known issue those drives were.

http://sentientcreations.com/xboxIssues/problem.ph p [sentientcreations.com]

http://www.llamma.com/xbox/Repairs/xbox_dvd_repair .htm [llamma.com]

Now there's an entire market based upon replacing your Xbox's DVD drive with a better one such as Samsung.

Microsoft's support solution: clean the disc. No matter how many times you tell them the disc is brand new, they say it's a dirty disc.

http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb; en-us;8167 [microsoft.com]

Then there was the power supply issue. A recall in which power cords were issued to cover up shoddy circuitry that could and did cause house fires. Mostly due to bad soldering. In the recall, older Xboxes were given power cords with breakers, so in the event of a short, you may burn out your Xbox but at least your house won't burn down.

http://s4.invisionfree.com/Popular_Technology/ar/t 215.htm [invisionfree.com]

So a few weeks ago we started to see Xbox 360s in demo retail models showing the dreaded Error 74. Photograph of it here.

http://joystiq.com/entry/1234000480066825/ [joystiq.com]

Now we have reports of crashes that yes, are online and could be from a vocal minority, but I have never heard of or owned a console that crashes the way photographs show us is happening to the 360 - and let's remember the people complaining about it are the ones who braved the cold and the nuisance of picking one up.

http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/xbox-360/hours-old-an d-pgr3-crashing-like-mad-138978.php [kotaku.com]

Now apparently there is a fix in the form of suspending the power supply. People are finding it's working. Ergo, the power supply is defective. Just like the one on the original Xbox which was RECALLED.

Whatever marketing spiel Microsoft want to give, I want for them to answer one thing. What exactly is Error 74 and Error 79 - what does it mean is happening to the box. They have refused, as they did with the Thompson DVD drive, to let us know what is going wrong. Even if it isolated. Does it bode poorly for the future? Why is there a SPECIFIC error message already in the box's OS that is happening to people?

Now we know for certain that the machine is not only prone to overheating, there is an inbuilt error message related to it.

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/907533/ [microsoft.com]

And did you hear about how the tech support person told that guy to "wipe his video cables with a soft cloth"? Too rich.

Re:MS has built hardware before

[King_TJ]

Yep, no mod points right now, or I'd give you one. Honestly, these days, it makes no difference who a company consists of for judging the relative quality of a hardware product they might produce. All that really matters is if they've got the money to bring it to market.

You can bet that the XBox 360 power supply was produced over in China, Taiwan, Korea, or another nation like that, where everyone else's power supplies get built too. Why does Apple have all of these well-known hardware screw-ups despite being primarily a "hardware company" full of engineers doing R&D? Same reason! When you hear complaints of inconsistent color and "pinkish edges" on the new 23" Cinema displays, exploding batteries on one model of older Powerbook, failing backplanes on revision A iMac G5's, and much more - they're primarily due to failures due to lack of quality control on shipments from these 3rd. world countries. (EG. Faulty capacitors caused the backplane problems ... just as they caused motherboard problems for Asus, Abit, and most others last year. All a result of a Chinese capacitor company trying to save money by using inferior electrolyte in them.)

Re:All MS jokes aside

[afidel]

Yeah, this just proves that MS doesn't get it when it comes to consumer electronics. Consumer electronics are used in the real world. That means they get used on carpet, the get crammed into cramped stereo cabinets, etc. You have to know how the product will be used and design it for that use, not try to design the use to your product. People just don't work that way. I think the more Sony sees, the less scared they are. MS can afford to continue to lose money on the consumer electronics sector, but at some point the shareholders are going to demand that they stop.

Re:Quality Repairs

[Sargeant Slaughter]

Do you mean Antec?

Their power supplies aren't that great either. We got in a bunch to run power testing on and they did very poorly. They had a terrible power factor rating (aprox .65), and VA was nearly 460 with AC wattage at only 290. This means that they were very inefficient and more expensive to run. For example, it would cost aprox $15 more a month to run a 500W Antec power supply when compared to a 500W Seasonic supply with all the same system components.

The supplies we tested (they were both over $100, one was that black one that is supposed to be silent) were suposed to be hot stuff, but like many of the computer products out there, it was just a name that people on the internet think is good. I suggest researching and performing relevant testing before making claims based on your own opinions regarding a company. Just because they may have made a good product a few years ago, doesn't mean everything they make will be a good buy or a quality product.

Re:Quality Repairs

[fredistheking]

The value of clean power is grosely exaggerated these days. Constant voltage is the real problem. An insufficiently rated (W) power supply will have trouble maintaining voltage expecially under varying loads. This is usually seen by crashes during games and random power downs.

The internal power circuitry of the cpu/mobo can easily "clean up" noisy power with a simple network of capacitors, however if the voltage is too low it can do nothing.

Re:Please answer me this, then:

[Anonymous Coward]

Because chips nowadays draw an insane amount of current. Trying to run everything from one voltage bus means that regulators are going to have to be scattered all over the place. Regulators are a source of heat that you'd rather not have in the main box. It's more convenient to move them to an outboard power supply.

Re:It crashes too

[vadim_t]

Because there happens to be no sane default.

You can't limit things like number of processes without knowing what the machine is supposed to do. A limit of 30 processes might be perfectly fine on a firewall, and completely insane for a machine that runs Apache. Set it to 500, and it won't prevent the firewall from becoming unusable due to a fork bomb, which may very well consume all available memory.

Same goes for things like memory limits. Databases are expected to use up most of the RAM available in the machine, very unlike a computer used for word processing, where it's very rare for any single program to consume a large fraction of RAM.

This is in no way unique to computers. You can't apply the same current limits to a residential house and a factory.

Thing is, this kind of safety measures only work when you know the setting, the expected resource usage, and put limits in the right place. They're specific for each particular situation.

Re:People who live in cramped quarters

[SquadBoy]

Duct. Duct tape.

I mean you *could* use it on ducks but it's certainly not named after that usage.

Re:All MS jokes aside

[penguinbrat]

Do not block any ventilation openings on the console or power supply. Do not place the console or power supply on a bed, sofa, or other soft surface that may block ventilation openings. Do not place the console or power supply in a confined space, such as a bookcase, rack, or stereo cabinet, unless the space is well ventilated.

Now I dont have the 360, but from these pics [gamespot.com], it looks like any other black power brick (just really big) - IE: no such ventilation openings (the power supply in your PC is what comes to mind). So throwing it on the carpet between the TV and the console seems to be following the directions, and you would think that the 5-10 foot space betwen the console on the set would be more than enough ventalation, especially if your not any kind of engineer.

Re:People who live in cramped quarters

[techwolf]

http://www.octanecreative.com/ducttape/duckvsduct. html [octanecreative.com]

It was originally Duck tape.

Re:MS has built hardware before

[nutshell42]

arg.

a) I meant the debug box

b) Here [kikizo.com] is a picture of the two. And here [kikizo.com] the article the picture's from

Re:Quality Repairs

[mkiwi]

As a both a Linear and Switching Power Supply Designer, I can say that if the supply is faulty in any way it will lead to catastrophe. If the supply gets so hot the the feedback loop (the thing that keeps XBox 360 from going nuts) is unstable, there are going to be bad consequences. A power supply also depends mainly on two types of engineers: Electrical and Mechanical. If the EE's did their job, then the ME's messed up when choosing how to place a fan or heatsink. A power supply should be able to work on carpet, bare floor, on top of a building. There is no excuse for having a bad supply on the 360.

Probably what the engineers did was "think" they had a thermally stable supply when in fact the lab bench acted like a big heatsink. The thermal resistance from a lab bench would be much less compared to carpet. Finally, lab supplies are regulated so well that even if you do place them in high heat, they maintain constant power even though they are hot. The process this uses is negative feedback, and given the correct choice of chip material for the power supply controller, should never be an issue. If it is an issue, go back to Asia and yell at your designers for giving you a crappy supply.

Re:Quality Repairs

[ThePowerGorilla]

Actually, he meant Astec. They are a very popular OEM for custom power supplies.

Additionally, a poor power factor has nothing to do with power supply efficiency.

There are many suppliers out there that could've provide a workable solution for the xbox, but they are all requirements driven. You tell them what you want, they make it for you, and get all required certifications (UL, etc). BUT, you have to give them requirements, and you can make them so detailed that you shoot yourself in the foot.

I don't pretend to know what happened here. I could come up with a million possibilities, but that doesn't make them right. I would be certain that someone, somewhere knew about this problem before release, but I imagine they had ramped up production so fast that they had to actually ship these suckers or face a huge scrap charge, or a missed deadline. They probably figured it wouldn't affect most users, and they new for sure it wasn't a safety problem... But these are just guesses for your typical scenario.

15% failure rate is a lot

[Anonymous Coward]

According to Marketplace on Thanksgiving, the failure rate of the Xbox 360 is about 15%.
http://marketplace.publicradio.org/shows/2005/11/2 4/PM200511242.html [publicradio.org]

Re:Quality Repairs

[clean_stoner]

This really is amazingly pathetic. I used to have a laptop that had a very comparable power supply (it was a Dell Inspiron 9100... basically a desktop packed into a smaller case, called for an enormous external power supply) and the only time my power supply ever overheated was once when I had it sitting on my bed and accidentally threw a pillow on top of it, and then it still ran for about another 45 minutes before cutting out. Microsoft really needs to do some more quality testing.

Re:Does it really make that much of a difference?

[theLOUDroom]

Modern electronics use cooling fans because they are cheap, and because they work good enough. For serious heat management, you are back to liquids (look at car engines, for example.)

Unless you're taling about a boat, a nuclear plant or something else similar, everything uses air cooling.

The difference between a car engine and a CPU heatsink is simply this size of the heatsink and the method of transport of the heat to that heatsink. Water cooling as it is typically described is a misnomer. The real cooling is still being done by the air. The water is simply a transport mechanism for the heat, for example moving it from the engine block of your car to the radiator.

The point is, it's all air cooling. What makes "water cooling" so much more effective, is not the use of water or any properties of water, but the ability to use a nice big radiator mounted is a place that is pretty much optimal as opposed to trying to fit cooling fins in wherever you can.

The real number to care about is thermal resistance to ambient air. (That is unless you plan on providing an EXTERNAL source of chilled water to your xbox.)