Train Your Own Replacement 1011
An anonymous reader writes "Yahoo reports on how some employers are asking the workers they're laying off to train their foreign replacements - having them dig their own unemployment graves. 'Almost one in five information technology workers has lost a job or knows someone who lost a job after training a foreign worker, according to a new survey by the Washington Alliance of Technology Workers.' It looks like a real dilemma where if you refuse to hire your replacement, you are fired without severance and are ineligible for unemployment benefits, and if you quit, you don't receive severance and are ineligible for unemployment."
Lock and Load (Score:1, Informative)
Common practice (Score:4, Informative)
When we sign a new contract for an agency, we send computer operators and other staff there for a week to get trained by the state employees that are about to get laid off
Unemployment (Score:5, Informative)
He worked for Lockheed Martin and was going to be fired.
Instead, he resigned and received benefits. No severence though...
Re:Train My Replacement? (Score:1, Informative)
In Australia, if you do not have a job, you are entitled to unemployment benefits, and the only way you can lose them is if you continuously refuse to apply for jobs.
Re:Train My Replacement? (Score:5, Informative)
In most cases if you quit, you cannot get benefits. However, I quit once and received full benefits. The reason was because they wanted to cut my salary by 40% and wanted me to work russian time (midnight to 8am - they were outsourcing to Russia, this was in 2001.) I said I would not accept the changes and if they wouldn't keep my at my current salary and hours, I would quit. They said no, I quit immediately. I layed this out to the unemployment people and they said I was justified in quiting. I am not sure if 'not wanting to train a replacement' would go over quite the same.
It's at least a fuzzy percent. (Score:2, Informative)
Basically, the statistic they came up with is worthless, and, as you point out, is used in an inflammatory and misleading fashion. I hadn't even thought about it until you brought it up. Thank you.
Re:A third option (Score:5, Informative)
Yes they worked here and the dates they worked were from X to Y...
That's it. The problem is, employers are afraid of law suits from former employees that might get wind that they were the ones that cost them the job. A former employeer can't even tell them if you quit, were fired, laid off, etc...
Now, employers that know little about the law will probably continue to "spill the beans", and if you use a former manager as a reference, then things change...but that's obvious...
It happened to me, twice... (Score:5, Informative)
First time was a crusher, guys sent from India, working for an offshore vendor - my primary task was to train them to take over for me, since I was terminated in lieu of them taking over systems support and development. Funny thing was my friend got me the gig there four years earlier but just about all of my training was of the OJT variety, though as a seasoned programmer, it doesn't take me too long to get the underpinnings of the system after I dig a bit. I got another offer, and even though it was for less pay and temporary, gladly took it to escape the burden. One of my team members trained a fellow for six months, thinking that the guy was going back to India. Then he suffered the ultimate insult as the individual got to relocate here and take his work from home position.
Second time I didn't have a job lined up and a team in Mexico took over my function. While I didn't train these folks in person, I was charged with preparing a comprehensive how-to guide that covered every facet of system support and development on that particular application domain. Knowledge transfer was conducted via email and my prepared HTML kit that covered everything from overviews to FAQ on the system. It was easier to stomach, minus the person to person mode.
You do it because as long as you're accepting a paycheck, you're obligated to serve as directed. At least that is the way I was brought up. A honest days work for an honest days pay and all that jazz.
Within a 45 minute drive of my house, I tally >5-10K jobs gone, either to India or handled by immigrant visa worker here in the states. By those numbers, you may be assured that these arn't rinky dink outfits, these are corporate giants in finance, defense industry, semiconductors, etc...
Maybe it's not come to your IT department yet. But the prospect will come soon to the executive management, unless you work for a very small shop, and they will consider it. I served a contract in the summer at a pharmaceutical company and the staff there boasted no way would offshoring and/or outsourcing pervade their organization. A few months into the assignment, senior management there announced a bold new initiative, a partnership with IBM that did indeed involve wholesale migration of their application and systems programming to Indian locales.
Here's a list of firms that have indeed embarked upon campaigns that involved US workers training foreign replacements:
You can read about more companies here [rescueamericanjobs.com] that have ex-IT workers that can share the same stories. These arn't satellite systems out on the peripheral horizon, only impacting a small percentage. If anything, I'd say the numbers quoted in the story are way under the mark, given these are core systems like accounts payable, accounts receivable, payroll, financial capture, EDI, MRP, reservation scheduling, accounting, etc...
Yay globalism.
Re:A third option (Score:2, Informative)
You don't need to worry about references.
Train Your Replacement (Score:1, Informative)
As a professional I did the best job that I could to train the people in what they were going to be doing. I also took notes and documented what I thought their shortcomings ( no note taking was a big one) were in case there were any complaints after I left. I have good references, performance awards and a hefty severance to show for it. Was I happy about the situation? No! Did I act in a manner I would expect any professional would? Yes!
In case anyone is wondering it is not "your" job, if it were you would be paying someone else. It is the company's job and they are paying you to do it.
Re:knowing more about the INS than I wish I did (Score:1, Informative)
Re:Train My Replacement? (Score:5, Informative)
Please. . . Most, if not all job descriptions I have ever seen (most had to also be signed, with an extra copy I can have), have including these very valuable words at the end: "Any other assigned tasks".
Thanks, Bush! (Score:5, Informative)
Thank god I am safe at Vandelay Industries...
If you are already laid off how can you be fired? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Train My Replacement? (Score:4, Informative)
It is perfectly normal to say it is not in my job description when indeed it is not. Organizing all your work and documents into a nice neat folder should be all you have to do. I personally would write a letter clearly expressing my dissatisfaction and say no and that If they wish, they can retain my services as a contractor after I leave.
Something Worse (or not) (Score:3, Informative)
Well, whether this is worse or isn't worse, is up to you to decide, but it is a similiar situation I went through.
At a company I had previously worked for, I got promoted/transferred to a new position within the company, the rules at the time, is that you have to hold a position for at least 6 months before being eligible for a transfer. I had transferred positions in under that 6 month period; it was approved by HR for a couple reasons, including that I was going from a medial position that required almost no training (printer operator), and that it was within the same department I was transfering (IT).
Problem was, my new manager was an a--hole, and I was going from a full-time position to a part-time position. I got a dollar raise from going to printer operator to mainframe/network operator, which is complete bulls--t.
So eventually, a full-time position became open, at the same position I was at, so of course, I took it. With taking this job, I never got a raise to the amount that beginning network/mainframe operator were getting paid (about $2 more than I was currently getting paid).
Continuing working the position, hoping my manager/supervisor comes to his senses; there was a little bit of shake-up in the department, and a few operators left, so they were hiring on some more operators to replace them. It came down to me training new people, for my exact same position that got paid more than $2/hr more than me. Although, they didn't force me out of my position, like the companies in the article are doing, it is quite an embarrasment to work and train people who are getting paid a substantial more amount of money more than you.
Re:Thanks, Bush! (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Thanks, unions, government, and greedy employee (Score:0, Informative)
The big problem occurs when someone is worth $4/h, is willing to work $4/h, but it is illegal for him to do so. That is the argument against minimum wage.
CEOs are not swimming in cash as you would purport. Some are, yes, and deservedly so. Being the president of a company is no small task. And while there are several people wealthy CEOs, there are many more failures.
I believe it is your turn to get a clue.
Re:Xenophobia ? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Train them poorly (Score:2, Informative)
You can't anyway. [cio.com] We spend millions bringing Indians to the US for IT education at our best (publicly funded) universities. We allow indians to move here. Yet, Americans are not allowed to move to India for work.
train your own replacement (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Train My Replacement? (Score:5, Informative)
The reason was because they wanted to cut my salary by 40% and wanted me to work russian time (midnight to 8am - they were outsourcing to Russia, this was in 2001.)
This could be construed as constructive dismissal - making unreasonable demands or not paying salary is usually the same as outright firing someone.
Exact rules for MN (Score:4, Informative)
Minnesota rules [uimn.org] I'm unemployed right now, so I have to go through these... the relavant parts:
2. Partially or Totally Unemployed Through No Fault of Your Own Even with enough wages to qualify for unemployment benefits, the reason for your job separation could disqualify you from receiving benefits. Some reasons are:
Quit without a good reason caused by the employer - Leaving for personal reasons or circumstances, not because it was the employer's fault.
Discharged for misconduct - For actions such as continued, unexcused absences and/or tardiness; breaking company rules; neglect of duties; insubordination; being impaired by drugs or alcohol on the job; fighting; harassment.
Refused a job or failed to apply for a suitable job without "good cause"- For refusing work that was suitable for you based on your work history, training, skills, ability, the pay scale in the local labor market, the distance to the job, and how long you have been out of work.
On strike -When off work because you are a member of the striking union or are participating in the strike by honoring a picket line.
NOTE: If you were not laid off due to lack of work from your last job, a Customer Service Center representative will contact you and your last employer for additional information. If you are disqualified from benefits because of a job separation, you will be mailed a written determination explaining the reason.
I've also heard it from court papers that "if a reasonable person would quit in this situation" Thus you can quit if you are assigned a job that while you can do, is not safe. They might agree that being asked to train your replacement before you are laid off counts, or might not, hard to say. A reasonable person might not quit, but would agree that it is a reasonable thing to do, OTOH, it is a safe job that you are qualified to do. You better be able to prove they were intending to lay your off after this though.
I wouldn't expect unemployment offices to have much sympathy for a company moving your job offshore though. They have some ability to make life hard on companies, but I'm not sure how much (likely very little)
I write my own referances (Score:5, Informative)
One just signs it in the name of a manager that's no longer employed there, using a date when he was there. So on the infinitesimally small chance that they actually ring up & check, things will still appear above board.
The result is that things don't work any more. (Score:3, Informative)
I don't see anyone else mentioning this:
The result of all of this job upheaval is that things don't work any more. Companies have tech support departments, but they don't really offer tech support. Wang and Sanjay can't support a product unless they are supported by the company for which they work, and they aren't.
We are seeing amazing product failures of a kind we never saw before. Products have problems, and the companies don't fix them. They simply aren't maintaining the level of expertise necessary to staying in a highly technical business.
It's illegal. (Score:5, Informative)
it's not all that bad (Score:5, Informative)
I work at a smallish company (around 250 employees including our offshore team) comprised of an engineering group split roughly 50/50 between our Boston-area (Mass., USA) office and our offshore contractors in Bangalore, India. Over the course of the last 2 years we've struggled with, and eventually found, a working balance between onshore and offshore talent. A 50/50 split (for most teams -- some are mostly offshore, and for others we can't find any good candidates outside the states) seems to work out best. More of the seniors/principals/architect roles are onshore, but we have some very senior people from india as well. Some of them come onshore for months at a time. In general they're treated just like regular employees. (In my personal experience I've actually preferred the personalities, dedication and skills of these workers on at least an equal basis with their local counterparts.)
It is a model that does more than allow our young business to keep costs down. If we hadn't moved our callcenter offshore, the increase cost per customer care call might well have bankrupted us, or forced a major extra round of financing we might not have been able to obtain. The whole thing could have tanked and we'd all be out of a job. As it is now, we're enabling a booming middle class in a poverty-stricken 3rd-world country (which in the long view is a very good thing for the world), at the same time that we've gradually improved the quality of our average developer (and CSR rep) and found a stable, economically viable, harmonious balance.
I know this is not the same experience many bitter recently-laid-off engineers have gone through, but it is *my* experience, and a perspective that doesn't get heard much.
I honestly believe there will always be a market for onshore talent. startups will never be able to immediately get a whole operation offshore from the get-go. fledgeling companies will need local people on local hours able to meet face to face at any time. my take is, I'm going to continue to train both on and offshore developers, do the best damn job I can, keep honing my own skills the best I can, and it ALL improves my situation -- and my resume.
working with people all over the world is a phenomenon that's not going to go away. so to the posters who suggest mis-training their potential replacements, I ask, which would you rather be: a whining dishonest saboteur who left a shambles behind in their position? or someone with solid experience working with international teams to create good software? to me the choice is clear.
like anything in life, make the best of it, and of yourself.
ps perhaps in this case my
Re:Train them poorly (Score:5, Informative)
Don't subject the rest of the Slashdot crowd to the talking out of your ass. Employment visas for India [indianembassy.org] are available to Americans as well. It's the companies who don't want to employ Americans in India because they sure as hell will end up raising the wages in India and reducing the cost advantage of offshoring jobs.
Re:Bad Training = Lawsuit? (Score:4, Informative)
Also, it's very difficult to prove someone was trained "badly". How much the person picks up is entirely up to them. If the person is so daft and just doesn't "get it" in the time allotted, oh well... what's a guy to do??
Also, if you're training your replacement, your co-workers will likely being doing the same thing soon, so there's no worry about "sabotaging" them, since they'll be joining you shortly in the unemployment line.
GJC
Re:Train My Replacement? (Score:2, Informative)
Immunity from termination is also not in your job description.
Re:Train them poorly (Score:1, Informative)
We are indeed subsidizing the education of foreign students on a massive level. Unfortuantely I've been unable to get hard numbers yet, but a very siginificant percentage of the CS/EE undergraduate population at the University of Texas at Austin is foreign. While foreign students are expected to pay out of state tuition, AFAIK they're competing for basically the same scholarships otherwise. There are also a decent number of 20 hour/week jobs on campus that will qualify you for an out-of-state tuition waiver. I ran into this when attempting to find my own part-time job this semester on campus. Apparently a decent number of the jobs in the various IT departments on the UT campus offer this special deferrment -- so what is just a $7-8/hr be a desk monitor in a computer lab job to me is a ticket to instate tuition for foreign students -- and these jobs are completely dominated by foreigners, not non-resident US citizens.
The number of foreign undergrads in CS/EE is nothing in comparison to the graduate department in CS/EE. UT has very highly rated graduate departments in both areas, but the *overwhelming majority* of CS/EE graduate students are not US citizens, and these students are subsidized through research grants, TA and grader positions, and there are other schemes to get out of out of state tuition as a grad student as well.
Anyway, getting numbers out of the university on these sort of statistics is difficult, but I'll get there. Call me a xenophobe, but I find it rather disturbing that American taxpayers are subsidizing the education of foreigners to the level its at at the University of Texas..
Re:Train My Replacement? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Train My Replacement? (Score:2, Informative)
It seems to be an American-specific thing that unions are only for blue-collar workers.
Re:Train My Replacement? (Score:1, Informative)
Unfortunately, at BofA (Bunch of Assholes), your severance package is made dependent on the "Quality of training" of your replacement. Fuck up the training and you can kiss off your package. I'm sure it will go no better for their current employees as they finish their merger with Fleet. In San Francisco, they have a long-standing reputation of terminating in this manner: you are escorted from your desk to a room where you and others are informed you have been terminated; you are given one hour to fill out all the forms; failure to fill out _all_ forms = no severance; one of the forms you must sign says you are resigning voluntarily; a list of those who sign the form is sent to EDD, so you'll be ineligible for unemployment, as you have agreed you weren't fired; upon leaving the room, you are escorted to the front door by someone carrying a box containing the contents of your desk which were deemed "personal" by the person who cleaned out your desk on your behalf and in your absence.
Cost cutting at all costs. (Score:2, Informative)
Unlike the original visionaries who drove the original development, our new management were pure short termists. They didn't listen when we told them that the development practices they were adopting would come back to bite them. Over the preceding year, purely as a result of a management drive to win each new customer by agreeing to anything they wanted, the system had become kludged to hell - by now we were scared of parts of it, and we wrote it. Guess how much good quality documentation existed?
Three people were sent over to London to learn all they could about the system we'd spent 3 years creating. I felt sorry for these three guys, so far from their families, struggling to understand something they had no realistic hope of ever getting to grips with. My job was toast anyway - the writing had been on the wall. We were courteous and friendly to them. We tried to help them understand the system. They failed - it was inevitable. The company didn't allocate very much time for the transfer either - it would have cost too much to keep us much longer, apparently.
I'm now in a much more interesting and visionary organisation, from where I've had the bittersweet pleasure of watching that company slowly die. Don't blame your replacements - they're normally nice and intelligent people, who'll normally feel quite bad about the situation too.
Any system complex and interesting enough to be worthy of your time is going to be very hard, if not impossible, to transfer working knowledge to a completely new bunch of people all in one go.
Especially if your management is already in the mindset of cost cutting at all costs.
Re:Train My Replacement? (Score:2, Informative)