Fedora Prepares For Xorg Instead of XFree86 491
ZuperDee writes "I noticed in the development branch of Fedora today that they appear to be in the process of creating new xorg RPMs, and from the looks of the changelogs in those RPMs, it looks like their ultimate plan is to switch from XFree86 to the XOrg Foundation's implementation of X11. Anyone else here think this could signal the beginning of a new trend in Linux distributions, and that XOrg could end up becoming the new de-facto X11 implementation?" (See this earlier story,too.)
RE: Drivers (Score:5, Informative)
Re:drivers (Score:5, Informative)
Path of least resistance (Score:5, Informative)
Re:For the ignorant (like me) (Score:2, Informative)
What you want is to know the difference between XFree86 and Xorg.
Re:First X Sucks Post! (Score:5, Informative)
Of course, Gosling was never an X architect. Those were Scheifler, Gettys and Newman. Gosling was the architect of NeWS, a competing windowing system that ultimately lost out to X. Yes, IHBT. Thank you and good night.
Re:For the ignorant (like me) (Score:5, Informative)
X11 is the 11th iteration of the X protocol. XOrg, XFree86, and most commercial X servers speak X11R6 these days. Speaking the X protocol is key to interoperability from Unix to Unix.
X11 as a protocol doesn't have a license issue that i am aware of. Did you by any chance mean the differences between XFree86 and XOrg?
If that is what you meant, then the answer is simple, XOrg is a branch right before the XFree86 license change, so it's pretty safe to say that XOrg isn't too different at all at this point in time.
Re:First X Sucks Post! (Score:4, Informative)
Re:This is great news. (Score:3, Informative)
Hmm, the link is to xorg.freedesktop.org. Are you sure you got what you wanted? It looks like they ARE using the fork.
Re:For the ignorant (like me) (Score:5, Informative)
To expand more helpfully on the previous poster's comment...
XFree86 and XOrg are both implementations of X11. X11 is technically a protocol, not a particular program. This is why X11 has persisted for so long despite repeated attempts to dislodge it. Everybody who tries to do something better forgets that X11 is a protocol, and that's actually why it's so popular. They usually end up implementing something that's an API, which is just all wrong.
The XOrg implementation of X11 is a fork of the XFree86 codebase, just before XFree86 changed its license to be not quite free enough for most people to be comfortable using it.
Re:If it's compatible, they will use it ... (Score:5, Informative)
Proper Context (Score:5, Informative)
C'mon now...
Besides, if you never read the articles, and just look at the exceprts, you'd never know about the asparagus. What asparagus, I hear you ask? My point exactly.
Re:you might want to check this out (Score:5, Informative)
Re:De Facto (Score:2, Informative)
ever have an MSDN subscription?
finished? you gotta be joking
documentation? that's whats source code is for
Re:Great (Score:5, Informative)
X11 is a standard, not an implementation! Just like HTML is a standard!
That distro A uses XFree86 and distro B uses XOrg means absolutely nothing to end users. Everything's still interoperable because X11 is a standard. Everything will still Just Work(tm) and the end user won't even notice something has changed.
Re:Drivers could be a problem for a long time. (Score:2, Informative)
Re:For the ignorant (like me) (Score:5, Informative)
How about "key to interoperability between X client and X server". Remember that X was implemented on VMS as well as on Unix, not to mention the version in X terminals and various emulators for MSWindows and Mac.
Re:Drivers could be a problem for a long time. (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Drivers could be a problem for a long time. (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Drivers could be a problem for a long time. (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Drivers could be a problem for a long time. (Score:2, Informative)
OK listen up (Score:5, Informative)
First off, this new server is a snapshot of XFree86 just prior to the licence change. Basically a fork.
Second, it basically has nothing to do with X.org - I don't know why they call it that, most likely due to the licence.
Third, X11 is the protocol that X servers speak nowadays. X version 11 release 6.6 to be more precise.
Fourth, nvidia and ati drivers will work.
I hope this clears it up somewhat.
Re:I'm confused (Score:5, Informative)
Re:drivers (Score:1, Informative)
Re:This is great news. (Score:5, Informative)
Kind of strange, but not really. Just one project (freedesktop.org) providing excellent free CVS hosting for free desktop projects, and two very similar projects with very different leadership joining.
The Lowdown (Score:0, Informative)
XFree86 [xfree86.org] and FreeDesktop.org's X server [freedesktop.org] are both X11R6-compatible X servers. The FreeDesktop.org server (herein known as XOrg) is a fork of an old XFree86 project called the KDrive.
The KDrive was a tiny X server implementation originally designed for PDAs and such. When you compile it the binary comes out to about 700kB and it requires hardly anything else to function. The author of the KDrive took (read: forked) it from XFree86's tree and started adding onto it, and it became XOrg.
So X11R6 applications and libraries work almost exactly the same under XOrg. The XFree86-specific extensions to drivers and shit need to be ported but most apps don't use those.
Gentoo, RedHat, I think SuSE and Debian and soon to be more Linux distros are all slowly switching to XOrg. Until then they'll be shipping XFree86 4.3.99.902 and below as those are the ones without the evil licensing changes.
This has been in the works for some time people, so it's not a rumor or a guess.
Note: XOrg isn't the real name of the server, I just call it that cuz im lazy. XOrg is the name of a foundation that puts out this FD.O Xserver. Info here [freedesktop.org].
Re:This is great news. (Score:5, Informative)
Re:drivers (Score:3, Informative)
Corrections (Score:5, Informative)
First its based on XFree86 4.4 just before the change, with the non-contaminated further changes added and other stuff not in XFree 4.4
Secondly it has a _lot_ to do with X.org. The wheel has turned full cicle from when years back OpenGroup/X.org tried to change the license and XFree basically told them to go away to today where X.org is doing the same thing the other way around and keeping it free. X.orgi is part of this now.
NVidia and ATI drivers may work. The Nvidia ones at least are reported ot do so, although they have chronic problems working with the preferred kernel build settings like 4K stacks.
Re:I'm confused (Score:5, Informative)
Xouvert is also based on Xfree86, but it is a bit different than X.Org. Xouvert was started when it became apparent that XFree86 guys were too reluctant to change, and to commit new codes and technologies. If I am not mistaken, the Xouvert project started in summer of last year, with the goal of being a more experimental branch of Xfree86 i.e: they would accept code more easily than XFree86 guys. They also stated that they want to seperate the drivers from other parts, so that one can add a driver of a new chip, to a old release of X. I don't know how succesful they have been in this front.
And aside from all of these, is the Free Desktop.org's X Server. This X Server, mostly written by Keith Packard is not mature for every-day use yet, but I think of it as the future of Open Source X. It is mostly a complete rewrite, and it is not a fork of XFree86, though it has borrowed some libraries from the latter one.
Re:For the ignorant (like me) (Score:3, Informative)
Jeroen
Re:drivers (Score:2, Informative)
Re:I'm confused (Score:5, Informative)
XFree86, Inc. - The old organization, mainly consisting of David Dawes at this point.
Xouvert - Splinter group that forked X awhile ago, with the intention of being a cooperative competitor.
X.org - Formerly X Consortium. Bunch of companies and developers working on the X11R6.x reference codebase.
Freedesktop.org - Umbrella project for various desktop-related Linux projects
Now, there are some implementations:
XFree86 - De-facto standard on Linux, by XFree86, Inc. Based on the X11R6.x reference codebase.
Xouvert - Fork of XFree86 (circa 4.3?) by the Xouvert project.
X.org server - Don't confuse this with the X.org reference codebase. This is a fork of XFree86 4.4-RC2 (before the license change). Now its under the X.org umbrella, and is hosted on freedesktop.org (that's the confusing part
FD.O X - Keith Packard and friend's new, fancy X server. Development hotbed for new technologies like transparency, OpenGL-acceleration, etc.
There are a couple of seperate sub-components to note here. The FD.O X server supports a number of DDXs (basically, driver layers). There is the kdrive-based DDX, the XFree86-based DDX (called Xizzle, theoretically compatible with XFree86 drivers).
There will eventually be another DDX designed from the ground-up for OpenGL acceleration. The device-independent portion of the FD.O server is, IIRC, derived from an older version of XFree86.
Re:If it's compatible, they will use it ... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:drivers (Score:2, Informative)
I think.
Re:drivers (Score:5, Informative)
The X.org X server is XFree84 4.4-RC2 + bits. It is hosted on freedesktop.org
The FD.O X server is KDrive (which is derived from XFree86, in part) + bits. It is also hosted on freedesktop.org.
Re:drivers (Score:5, Informative)
The X.org X server is the XFree86 4.4 codebase, so it is binary-compatible with the ATI/NVIDIA drivers.
Re:The Lowdown (Score:5, Informative)
There are two X servers at freedesktop.org now, both with stupid and confusing names but hey :)
1) Xserver - this is the new experimental one that does pretty drop shadows and stuff. Not really mainstream yet. This is the fork of kdrive.
2) Xorg - this is the fork of XFree before the licensing change. It's not experimental and is usable just like XFree is.
Hope that helps
Re:I'm confused (Score:3, Informative)
Re: Drivers (Score:5, Informative)
The main problem was that many folks got fed up with the very closed nature of XFree86 development. Many decisions about the project were made by fiat in non-public mailing lists. These core group of developers were often unwilling to explore new features or allow new developers. The barrier to entry for obtaining CVS access to the source was high. Thus, many developers who were not part of the core group got annoyed and decided to stop submitting patches to XFree86. Thus, all these derivatives were born that promise a more community-oriented development process.
The license change was just the straw that broke the camel's back.
Re:De Facto (Score:5, Informative)
What it does do, is prevent non Free forks.
Troll, mod down (Score:1, Informative)
Re:Core 2 (Score:2, Informative)
New features will be saved for FC3.
Re:De Facto Standards (Score:3, Informative)
I've neather installed, and everything I run runs fine. All you need is the qt and gtk libs and you're fine.
Re:Ad-hoc Standard (Score:3, Informative)
On other distribututions, rpm (yes, rpm) works fine. it doesn't strip binaries it shouldn't touch (arm for instance in an x86 package), it doesn't add depenedencies it doesn't need, it basically just works as advertised.
Have you used the 'AutoReqProv: no' line in RPM? Works fine for me in preventing spurious dependancies.
there is no such thing as a minimal redhat9 installation. all we wanted was to build packages for redhat9, 2gig was as small as I could get the build.
Have we not heard of "Select individual packages?" I routinely build RH9 and FC1 boxes in the 800-900MB range. Could probably do with less if I really wanted to.
There are also the configs, the different command usages, etc. etc.
When you're using any package management system there are bound to be configs that are placed in automatically. Aside from RH basically not using
Redhat: new users and coporate users needing a good backup plan.
etc...
Blah blah blah. It's certainly as possible to tune a RH system for low-fussness, or for high performance (i386 packages don't make that much of a difference!) just as it is to mis-configure any of the other distros. Use what works for you.
Probably not. (Score:4, Informative)
I know for a fact that Debian, Gentoo, and a few others are specifically NOT touching XFree86 4.4 (i.e. post-license-change), and are looking for alternatives.
X.org sounds like it is currently the most mature alternative, and will likely have the marketshare XFree86 does within months, unless David Dawes pulls his head out of his ass and stops shooting himself in the foot. He doesn't seem to realize that his license change is going to make XFree86 a defunct project VERY quickly.
Re:Y-Windows (Score:3, Informative)
While the freedesktop.org screenshots are pretty, they ignore that X11 was developed too long ago. To many of those items in the pretty pictures would, on most X servers, give messages ranging from "extension 'this_weeks_version_of_something_like_render' not found" to "SIGSEGV".
X has some serious problems. Too much functionality has been put into optional extensions. Not to mention that widgets and toolkits should be part of the server, not compiled into the client. We've learned some things about windowing system design in the last 25 years.
The freedesktop demos wouldn't look so good if the server was running on Solaris and was displaying clients running on the other side of a 56 kbps link.
X has outlived the usefulness of its design. It's time to move on.
Re:Drivers could be a problem for a long time. (Score:3, Informative)
xorg-x11 works great (Score:5, Informative)
Comment removed (Score:2, Informative)
Comment removed (Score:2, Informative)
Not all about licenses (Score:4, Informative)
This is not all (directly) about licenses. Keith Packard has done most of the new, interesting functionality in XFree86 for some time. By going with him, they are aiming for more modern functionality in their X server. XFree86 is very conservative about new functionality.
Re:For the ignorant (like me) origin of X11 name (Score:5, Informative)
X11 was X11 right from the start as far as I remember. The 11 stands for one megapixel (as in a display 1000x1000) and one MIP (million instructions per second).
Sorry, the 11 is a version. From "man X":
I'm guessing your megapixel*MIPS was a retcon. Some of us are actually old enough to barely remember when X10 was just passing out of relevance, and I'd imagine a few of us remember before that. Versions before X10 were never really relevant outside of MIT. X10 was 1986, X11 was 1987, and there's been various X11R*s since then. Today, we use X11R6.4, but many programs want lots of extensions on top of it (eg, XRender). Since many of these have only been implemented on XFree86, that's now a de-facto standard.
Re:Questions from an illiterate X user (Score:3, Informative)
Keith Packard is, I believe, the freedesktop.org guy -- he's the guy that's pushed forward most of the new XFree86 functionality for the last few years, until his falling out with Dawes.
This is an annoyance for packagers. It will also mean that transitions to Xserver or features coming across from Xserver are more likely, which is good all around for Linux folks.
Re:drivers (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Y-Windows (Score:5, Informative)
X-Windows is, just as it says, a server.
One of the greatest things about it is it's network transparency. X-Windows, is still ahead of it's time. Microsoft introduced Terminal Services back in 97 or 98 for Windows NT Server TSE, long time after X-Windows existed, and it still is not as powerfull as X11, it only draws the whole screen through a pipe, compresses it and sends-it to a client. X11 does a lot more than that, it has security is a number of forms (e.g. ACL based), it has support for extensions - which is soo great, and it tells the client which extensions it supports, it has speed (when not over the network) using UNIX Sockets instead of TCP. Even over the network it's fast. If you think that running mozilla remotely on a 56k is slow, think of the alternatives.
Also XFS is great. Imagine you're in a DTP office. You need hundreds of fonts, an UNICODE font can have 20MBytes, or more, why should those fonts be copied on all the stations? One central station for all of them is enough.
You want remote desktop? Just thing XDMCP.
X11 should NOT have an integrated widget set in it. That is because, it's multi-os, multi-platform, you can't expect all the platforms to have the same widget set, toolkit, just think embeded devices here. Not to mention that there is already a standard widget set as defined by IEEE(or was it ISO?) standards: motif. Unfortuantely motif is getting kinda old.
Re:For the ignorant (like me) (Score:2, Informative)
The real reason that X11 is seen as slow or laggy is that window resizing/moving leaves a trail of damaged window contents that are momentarily visible to the user. Solving this problem is non-trivial, as it requires either global transactional-like synchronization or aggresive buffering, like the recent reseach into translucent windows has required.
Re:drivers (Score:5, Informative)
Answers, from the paper on the site (Score:4, Informative)
It's not one of the "greatest technologies ever created in computer world." You've got to be kidding me. Then you go into a long advertising spiel on X11.
Anyway, here are the reasons listed in Mark's paper:
"The X Window System [23] is the de facto standard graphical user interface (GUI) system on UNIX and UNIX-like platforms such as GNU/Linux. However, as X approaches its 20th year, signs of its age are beginning to show. Commonly cited problems with X include:
Aside from the user interface inconsistency, the lack of standard components also makes internationalisation difficult, particularly for languages which require a complex input method.
Although the X protocol supports extensions very well, some of the latest extensions have begun to interfere with each other. For example, when Xinerama (the extension which allows X desktops to span multiple monitors) was first released, it broke XVideo (the extension which allows X to use hardware accelerated overlays for video play back). The 'fix' for this was to allow XVideo to only work on the primary display. The latest extension, XRandR (Rotate and Resize), is also known to break many older applications which assume that the screen size will never change.
Further, the internal design of X itself is outdated. Even adding a simple feature, such a stranslucent windows, requires large changes to the server [17]. Because of the requirement to be backwardly compatible, these features must be implemented for everything that X works on, including two-colour displays.
Re:Answers, from the paper on the site (Score:2, Informative)
2) No one said that you should use Xlib. I personally think that the ones who succed in that, are both heros and masochists. Ever tried using a toolkit? Say GTK or QT or TCL/TK or motiff...etc? Most of these have nice language bindings. For GTK, you have also the very fast C and the soo easy to use C#.
3) There should be no standard toolkit. You cannot use GTK or QT on a palm or something like that, first because they are big, and consume a lot of that precious space, second because all that eye-candy doesn't fit on the display, third because they consume too much CPU power. The thing with the input methods, it's very well defined and integrated in X11, xinput works perfectly. Localization and accesibility should belong to the toolkit because they are soo related to the way the program is written.
4) X11 is a protocol not an implementation. XFree86 is one of the many implementations. True, XFree86 is reaching it's end of life. BUT that's not because it's a complete mess, because it's not, but it's due to the recent licence change. Indeed, the building process should be moved to a more GNU-like method (autoconf, automake, etc).
Indeed some of the new extensions do break a few things, and that's because translucent windows was inconceivable (is my spelling correct?) 10 years ago. There are solutions for all of them, some are hacks indeed because having an app written for X 15 years ago and still running perfectly is a reason of pride not of shame. Some apps just don't need modification.
It's great that X works even on 2 colour displays. It means that it will run also on a monocrome LCD. Cheap and efficient.
5) Nothing is easy. If it does so many things, in so many ways, on so many systems, with security and other features X has, it's great. Of course greatness comes at the cost of complexity.
The part with xine, well, that problem comes from the window-managers. The thing with the screen-saver was NOT an ugly hack, it just was the easiest way around it. YOU CAN CONFIGURE a screen-saver very easily, I'm not sure on how that is done from a program, but I can investigate.
Why do people doubt something that worked and works even on my 386 and on my dual xeon?
Y! is a cute thing. It tries to implement some things which are cute. But it gives up many of the things that make me respect X11. If it wouldn't then it would be just another X11 like software. Another thing: X has almost 20 years of programing behind it, they cannot beat that in short-term. They want to do what X and GTK (or QT or something else) do. Those are huge monsters. They are the basis of GUI, and have evolved incredibly. No matter how good they are, and how many they are, it's a gigantic task.