Novell vs. Microsoft - Benchmarks 177
I Just found this article in The Register which talks about KeyLabs comparing Novell's NDS eDirectory vs. MS's Windows 2000 Active Directory. Here is the KeyLabs benchmark report (requires PDF reader) and here is another link to Novell's eDirectory Benchmark. (also, here is what Novell says about it). I'm sure this is only round 1 and we will surely see some other reports...
Love that graph.. (Score:3)
The scale is between 80 and 100 percent. The low 90 that MS scores just PALES in comparision to that full-height 100.
Of course, ~10% downtime is an extremely significant number if you're talking mission critital.. But still, it's not the 50% that it looks like.
Something fishy... (Score:1)
My question is: How do we know whether the two directories were tuned to equivalent performance parameters?
Until this is answered, I would take these results with a salt lick.
Hmm what state is KeyLabs from? (Score:1)
Re:Something fishy... (Score:1)
I don't do sigs.
Book recommendation (Score:2)
Cheers,
Ben
There are four kinds of falsehoods. (Score:3)
Damn lies.
Statistics.
Benchmarks.
Re:Love that graph.. (Score:1)
Bias? (Score:1)
This doesn't mean that I don't believe that NDS is faster and more reliable than Active Directory. My gut feeling would lean that direction. But I would like to see real benchmarks from an unbiased company.
how can these be compared? (Score:2)
MoNSTeR
Microsoft Partner (Score:1)
from Novell's offical press release [novell.com]
Active Directory is Microsoft's first real attempt into the directory space, and, frankly, their inexperience is evident in important real-world functions.
Things like this give me a good laugh. A M$ certified partner saying M$ is inexperienced.
Novell is the best - but will they win? (Score:1)
Dirty little game (Score:1)
Bah, they are equal (Score:1)
Re:how can these be compared? (Score:2)
Re:Benchmarketing (Score:1)
But anyway speaking of marketing, it is all in how you put the spin on it, for example with the Mindcraft tests Linux finished second but NT4 finished second to last
Oh, it gets better (Score:2)
As Jeremy Allison said, everybody knows ahead of time who will win a particular test, and nobody will participate if they don't honestly think they are going to win. He said that when Linux' IP stack gets optimized and Solaris' file-system gets improved that you will see him repeat the Mindcraft benchmarks - but not until...
Cheers,
Ben
Errr A bit too little too late (Score:1)
Benchmark reliability and tuning (Score:3)
As a longtime /. reader, however, I say "before we slam anyone (Microsoft, Novell, the test lab, etc.) let folks familiar with Win2k post information about the test parameters to show any biases toward Novell in how the test was set up -- a la the accusations against Mindcraft which IIRC were mostly proven to be false in the 3rd run of that particular benchmark.
What I like about this particular study as published is that they were very up front about the tuning parameters, such as they are. My hope would be that Microsoft will respond with their "ideal tuning parameters", and then the benchmark can be run again, with the results posted here.
Re:Bias? (Score:1)
It's not even that big of a grain of salt. It's one the size of Utah County, Utah. Novell likely has people working for them who live farther away then that.
Having said that, their claims are likely not all that outrageous. Remember that the Mindcraft results weren't false, just not very useful because their "real world" tests involved lots of static pages being accessed at ridiculous rates instead of testing dynamic page generation. I'm not up to date with LDAP, but for authentication purposes it's unlikely you would need to authenticate 250 people a second from a single server. And if 1 out of 8 of those people can't log in right away because the server is unreliable...well, in the "real world" 3 out 8 (totally made up numbers) of those people probably mistyped their passwords anyway and would have had to try again.
However, the fact that ActiveDirectory is Win2000 or bust, while NDS is Win2000, Solaris, Linux, et al., (according to Novell of course) is much more important and is more proof that at least one vendor is trying to lock you in while the other is willing to play nicely (underdogs usually are).
Re:Dirty little game (Score:1)
Take it from me - nothing beats Novell in manageability. Nothing beats it in fileserver (=caching) performance, too.
What Novell product have you actually seen?
NetWare 2.15???
Seems like you've no idea what you're talking about here.
Re:how can these be compared? (Score:1)
Another thing to keep in mind is that Novell has been around for a quite a while - shipping networking and directory services for many years. Their expertice should result in a superior product - otherwise they should be out of business. For all I know ActiveDirectory might just be as full of bugs as the rest of Windows 2000(roumored to have 65000 bugs
Nobody ever got fired for... (Score:2)
Burris
Re:this is a great time... (Score:1)
Sounds like you need one. (Or rather, sounds like you need to stay up to date)
Re:Dirty little game (Score:1)
Re:proven (Score:1)
(Every moron can write windoze apps in visual basic
Novell recognizes this by releasing NDS for *a lot* of platforms, while m$ still believes in a one-platform world - theirs (duh).
Re:Book recommendation (Score:2)
Re:The Battle Begins (Score:1)
Have you read the article on Novell's site about the *ahem* security HOLE (it's that big) in M$'s AD?
Go read it. Change your opinion.
NDS is quite powerful (Score:1)
Novell: Large LAN File/Print servers and user auth
Linux: Web/Mail/Internet, firewalls. Samba isn't as efficient as M$'s SMB
NT: General purpose small-size File/Print/Web server, database server
Solaris: database/web
Re:hmm. maybe. (Score:1)
Is ok, though. You can still turn in into an application server. It comes with IBM websphere and VisualAge for Java. Pretty cool stuff.
Re:Novell Netware (Score:1)
Sorry dude, but if you want to stay legal you have to BUY yourself a windoze license just the same.
And surprise - it costs as much as a NetWare license!!
eDirectory v. Active Directory v. OpenLDAP? (Score:1)
Novell does kind of rule though, (Score:2)
The thing is, Novell may never become a great application platform (their Java-induced delusions notwithstanding) but you don't really need to use Netware for that. In fact, it's now downright easy to manage NT servers through NDS and use them for what their good for.. (uh, that's nothing!) well, application support. and then do file and print services with Netware.
I'm still not sure how they plan on making money off this (they have to deliver more directory apps) but Active Directory is NO compitition, it's really not even worth talking about unless you have a 100% MS shop. Now you can manage solaris, linux, etc. users with it as well (this includes file rights, group membership, password..). Then there's a product that let's you manage Exchange and Notes directories through NDS, hot damn.
While I'm babbling on about Novell.... ever notice their products just appear suddenly. No preanouncement, no nothing. Just BAM: now shipping. Unfortunately it's that kind of marketing that gets them screwed all the time. Anyway, don't mean to sound like a shill for Novell, but you don't hear much rah rah about them around here so.... here it is: rah rah Novell.
Re:Book recommendation (Score:2)
Re:Nonetheless... (Score:1)
Read the arcticle about it on Novell's site - complete with a guide how to reproduce it.
By the way, could all those assholes trying to get a first post leave?? They're clogging my view.
3rd party benchmarking.... (Score:1)
If Keylabs jumps up and down, stating "These were the given parameters of the tests required, which implies that they are not as realistic as benchmarks should be". or some such, would they suffer client backlash?
Maybe. But I think it would present a clear case of the organisation receiving better credit for presenting clear, unbiased reports. Which can only give you more business, not less.
Companies will not cease in their quest to get 3rd party endorsement of their product (however implicit), but it is important that all the circumstances are states, in bold, underlined, and maybe even restated in the conclusions of the report.
Re:Novell does kind of rule though, (Score:1)
But hey, we were ALREADY convinced....
Indeed they need to change their strategy.
By the way, one product that has been 'in the pipe' for a long time now in NDS for Linux...
Keylabs is a spinoff from Novell (Score:2)
Re:Something fishy... - Netware is like that (Score:2)
The reason why NT was not tweaked nearly as much as Novell is because that the things that were configured under Novell are simply not accessible under NT.
This underlies the fundamental difference btw NT and Novell (or NT and Linux for that matter). While Netware (or Linux) is more difficult to set up and optimize, it is far faster and far more stable because the server can be optimized far more than NT, with a lot less garbage code (Who needs a GUI on a server anyways?).
Jailbrekr.
Novell's Shortcomings are Obvious. (Score:1)
It was written by women, who are incapable of doing CS beacause their minds are wired differently than those of the average adolescent male who posts on Slashdot (e.g., they have something better to do with their time than post incoherent and indignant gibberish on Slashdot, unlike me and the rest of you, most of whom don't even exist).
Microsoft, on the other hand, has an objectively verifiable Aristotelian Epistemology, which has created vast wealth in the form of their fantastic market cap, and which also leads them to hire only men and to create superior software. This is the real reason why Janet Reno hates them so much: They are a threat to the Socialist Hermaphrodite Power Structure which she represents.
Re:yo asshole (Score:1)
SparcLinux rulez....
Re:Dirty little game (Score:1)
Re:Something fishy... - Netware is like that (Score:1)
Ever tried to increase the directory cache buffers on an NT server so it reads large dir listings faster???
Relatively simple tuning on NetWare.
Not surprising. (Score:1)
Where's Netscape (Score:3)
As a Nescape employee, I can't help but ask why Netscape Directory Server wasn't included in these tests? Since Netscape Directory Server has > than 70% market share in the LDAP market, I don't understand how it wouldn't included in a major benchmark.
I don't know the particulars of these benchmarks, but Netscape Directory Server has been benchmarked at speeds almost an order of magnitude higher. Of course, I don't know if that's comparing apples to apples. But I'd like to know!
Re:Not surprising. (Score:1)
They have not reached the end of the scale yet...
Let the fud wars begin (Score:1)
The title says it all but read on if you must.
News Flash
Today Microsoft(c) announced that according to studies, done by an independent lab, Microsoft's active directory beat out Novell's eDirectory by a wide margin in all tests used to simulate real world usage.
News Flash
In yet another update on the ongoing battle between microsoft and Novell over who's product is the best Novell anounced that yet another bug had been found in microsofts active directory found on Windows 2000. This bug accourding to Novell will expose all of you pr0n to any script kiddie with some spare time on his hands.
News Flash
After close diagnosis of a bug in their new windows 2000 product microsoft determines that the bug is less of a threat then any of the over 5000 as yet unfixed bugs in the new operating system. Although no longer CEO Bill Gates had this to say"it all comes down to inovation do you want a really secure computer that just sits their and serves web pages or do you want a machine that will do everything from fixing your breakfast in the morning to runing the latest dos game" Gates also commented that Novells product might fix breakfast for you but only if you liked eggs sunny side up.
News Flash
Bill Gates the richest man in the world was just instatutionalized. Gates seems to be halucinating penguins with computers running Novel products.
News Flash
Congress along with the president died today. Evidentaly an insane Bill Gates hired near eastern terrorists to build a giant space station on the moon and had a huge laser built to destoy Washington DC. Luckily only politicians/criminals were killed since only DC was affected by the blast. The only statement provided by Gates was a comment on the recent decision of the supreme court to strike down the Digital millinai act.
News Flash
Bill Gates was apprehended today by the new government of people's liberation. The new government first gave Gates a medal for destroying DC, then found him guilty of trying to take over the world. As punishment Gates eyelids were taped open and he was forced to look at windows blue screen of death for over 20 hours. After this he was subjected to a message that said if you don't want to see this message then close your eyes. I don't know about you folks but that message seems very like the message that you get on a windows 98 computer after having to power off because a program crashed. The message says if you do not wish to see this message again be sure to always shut down you computer in the proper way.
News Flash
It's been nearly a year since the unfortunate Bill Gates incedent. Now Novell seems to be heading in the same direction. Novell's CEO today said that since the fall of microsoft Novell has had to be the inovator in the computer industry. He went on to describe the many things that Novel had created including:Email, dos, windows, html, and almost all other computer related inventions in the last century.
I don't know about you but I think our new government ought to have Nasa look to see if another laser has been built on the moon. You know the saying about history repeating itself.
News Flash
The end is near with all disasters that have happened lately we have all ignored AOL/TimeWarner and the MPAA/RIAA they seem to have gotten together and used their recources to buy all the land on earth. Now with all broadcasts and laws being made by the AOL conglomerate we can only hope that our new masters are kind.
Moderate if you must I have Karma to burn
End Message
So what? (Score:2)
Consciousness is not what it thinks it is
Thought exists only as an abstraction
Re:Something fishy... - Netware is like that (Score:1)
*GASP!*
You mean you don't want the same OS for your server as you use for your workstations? THIS IS RANK HERESY! Quick Quasimoto! The boiling oil!
Now, if you really want a usefull test, lets test a propery patched, configured and secured server farm and see how long it takes to get root/admin/administrator access on Linux, BSD, Novell 5.0 and NT 4.0.
Now that would be a kick ankle report!
As an NT admin.. (Score:1)
Active Directory. This is the "Big New Feature." I've used Microsoft products for 9 years+. I've seen big new products, and big new features, before. Win3.1, Win95, WinNT (with no service packs, *shiver*). Anytime something this big tries to change it causes a trainwreck.
I use NT a lot. I moved every PC in our company to it. And our webroutfireservers to Linux. NT works, it gets the job done. It has problems. The biggest problems it has ALL have to do with networking; remembering network drives, using networked files, sharing, being nice to friends, etc. This code, I'm sure, is the foundation of Active Directory. Either that, or it's brand new and merged into the existing code. 30 million lines of it.
I can believe it's stable, I've seen NT stand through some interesting tasks (and balk at some babies), so I'll believe they have that part down. But I don't think Kirk, Picard, or Janeway, would trust it for the Enterprise.
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Re:Benchmark reliability and tuning (Score:1)
Re:Bias? (Score:1)
Now put that at 8-8:30 AM at a mid-large sized business, and your server ignoring 12% of the directory lookups it gets would be a bad thing.
Re:Something fishy... - Netware is like that (Score:1)
Maybe recently something changed but before
Netware is stable , in the way DOS was.
Samba isn't as efficient? (Score:2)
Mindcraft?
The problems were not in Samba, they were in the Linux TCP-IP stack being a bottle-neck with 4 network cards. And Solaris has problems with slow file-systems. Samba itself performed just fine.
Regards,
Ben
Re:The Battle Begins (Score:1)
Novel has allways been a better choice. (Score:1)
Re:Surprise? (Score:2)
If you don't know about that then obviously you know nothing about Windows
Huh,, just anonther vi expert
As the saying goes... (Score:1)
Just look at the paragraph in which the same benchmarking house releases two benchmarks, one after another, claiming that each product is superior to the other. Excuse me?
Re:Novel has allways been a better choice. (Score:2)
You should tell your friends not to play quake on their NT servers
Key Labs has a great history (Score:2)
Free suggestion to Microsoft - get these guys to run your next Linux vs. Win2k FUD benchmarks. Be sure to write them a big check.
Re:Novell does kind of rule though, (Score:2)
"Cross Platform" (Score:1)
Someone tell me what character this is: ü
Man, I hope they didn't make that page with Word.
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pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate [152.7.41.11].
Re:Surprise? (Score:2)
Re:proven (Score:1)
Yeah, but each platform has its advantages. (Every moron can write windoze apps in visual basic
I guess that's an advantage if the user is a moron who can stand using a VB app written by a moron.
Re:Novell is the best - but will they win? (Score:1)
It reminds me of a database benchmark I did a long time ago of Ingres against Oracle using a standard test suite. Ingres was much faster in every test. On one test in particular Ingres returned the result set in about 10 minutes. Oracle hadn't returned anything after 48 hours...
But who is the market leader now?
I disagree completely. (Score:2)
Windows NT has a larger percent of servers than Netware because of specific applications that require it. If you were to compare installations of Windows and Netware in a scrictly File/Print/Directory services role, I think those numbers would be completely different.
The fact is, stuff like Fax Servers, Database Servers, etc are primarily written to the MS platform . Netware doesn't compete in this segment, so including these servers in the comparison skews the results.
Also, when considering File/Print/Directory Servers, a single Netware server can out-perform NT when serving large numbers of users. Windows NT is basically a workgroup platform, so more NT servers are requred to serve the same number of users. Again, this fact skews the raw numbers when comparing number of units shipped or whatever.
Finally, people - especially the media - have been thumping the Netware is dead drum for years! Yet the platform continues to improve, and yes... sell! You might be surprised at how many Netware servers have been in production for more than five years in small offices which don't necessarily upgrade or update their systems often due to budget concerns..
They turned off indexes!? (Score:1)
Re:"Cross Platform" (Score:1)
Man, I hope they didn't make that page with Word.
that was supposed to be a checkmark. Actually the fault isn't necess arially with Word. I don't think it is too much for Adobe Acrobat to expect that most people on the plant have the wingDing font
But yeah
Creator:Microsoft Word
Producer: Acrobat PDfWriter 3.0 for windows
created last sunday even! I wonder if this Dave Eckert (listed as author) got paid overtime?
Re:Something fishy... - Netware is like that (Score:2)
Microsoft and several independent authors have warned against using Netscape LDAP with AD; it's tuned and optimized (of course) for Microsoft's LDAP3 standard. Netscape is optimized for NetWare, because that was the most prevelant when it was released. The NetWare test is on a shipped, finished, tuned product; the AD tests were on a pre-release build (2194 is the one just before the RTM build, which is NOT identical to the retail.) Finally, the tests were designed to test functions AD is not optimized for; AD is intended to fill the distributed IntraNet environment.
My point is that when you read a report, consider the facts before you slam Microsoft. There are good tools made by Microsoft; Windows 2000 is one of them. Oh, and by the way; a GUI is useful on a server for a number of reasons. To name three:
Re:Book recommendation (Score:1)
If history is a good teacher (and it is) then people will know that these reports are targeted for the people that know no better.
Microsoft is up to it's old tricks.... (Score:1)
Re:Something fishy... - Netware is like that (Score:1)
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Re:eDirectory v. Active Directory v. OpenLDAP? (Score:1)
You can use LDAP to access NDS. You can use LDAP to access ADS. And the directory you access with O-LDAP is text files.
So the ADS directory its self would have to be an insanly bad structure to be worse than non indexed , non hashed text files.
Re:Bias? (Score:1)
You want to read a file, the NDS is checked to see if you have rights. Print to printer_foo? Same thing. Computer is turned on, and sends out a dhcp request? Its in the NDS.
Every single file has an associated NDS object, and every single other object can have there own rights to that object.
Indeed, every single object properties has associated rights.. Its not difficult to get insanly large amounts of directory traffic..
that's a load of crap (Score:1)
3.11 and 3.12 servers with uptimes in the range of six
months. Yeah, NLMs were a silly, kludgy way of running
server applictions (ah, Btrieve) but they generally weren't
that bad.
Second, netware is not that old netware. It's been overhauled.
Completely. There are no more nlms. It does IP natively,
the directory services are solid (as one would hope after the debacle
that was NDS through the 4.X incarnations of netware), and
are fast. The cruft has been cleaned out of it and it's
a fairly stable, modern NOS. Give it some respect, punkass.
Re:Something fishy... - Netware is like that (Score:2)
I was under the impression that the Novell-sponsored test used the same Win2k setup as the MS-sponsored test.
Re:I disagree completely. (Score:1)
You might be surprised at how many Netware servers have been in production for more than five years in small offices
The reason Novell is "dead" is right in your comment -- a huge portion of the customer base never upgraded from 3.x, meaning Novell has to survive on mimimal revenue. Cheers to NW 3.x, I guess.
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Re:Something fishy... - Netware is like that (Score:1)
"GUIs are more impressive and boss friendly"
I never have underestimated this, and have had to fight many a battle (it isnt easy battling non-IT skilled ppl who are holding the pursestrings) In the past, I have fought tooth and nail for Netware (since I despise downtime and the screaming users it creates), and lost because they 'didnt get it', and went with NT. After 1 year, and with the IT budget spiralling out of control and horrible reliability due to 'undocumented features' in NT, the boss 'finally got it'.
All too often I have seen (or been involved in) IT projects where they think that the TCO will be less if there is a common platform for both workstation and server. All I can do is put my 2cents worth in, sit back, and enjoy the overtime *smile*.
I'm not biased. I only fight for what works (Like a Netware app server? naaaaaaah)
Re:Surprise? (Score:1)
Re:eDirectory v. Active Directory v. OpenLDAP? (Score:1)
Re:eDirectory v. Active Directory v. OpenLDAP? (Score:1)
Berkeley DB (not DBM)
Re:Dirty little game (Score:1)
Re:Something fishy... - Netware is like that (Score:1)
Crap. If you beleive this, you know little.
Re:Surprise? (Score:1)
Windows 2000? Linux distro/version?
How about a comparison of NT4.0 SMP versus Linux 2.2.9, eh?...
Although both NT and Linux serve more than twice as many dynamic pages with four CPUs as they do with one, NT in SMP mode is still just under half as fast as Linux with only one CPU.
http://www.heise.de/ct/english/99/13/186-1/
So does that make the SMP in Linux 2.2.9 more than 4 times faster than NT4.0 SMP?
Then we have Linux 2.4 coming! And with Intel's support of upcoming CPU's...
Use for a GUI on a server (Score:2)
- It's better to monitor performance by watching graphs than by waiting for error messages. Graphs show trends, which error messages never do.
- In a GUI, you can have multiple control panels open at once. A command line forces you to work one at a time.
- GUIs are more impressive and "boss friendly." Don't underestimate the importance of this one; anyone who doesn't think it's important has never had to fight for a budget.
I can do all of these with my servers, none of which have a GUI (or a monitor, for that matter). What they do have is X libraries, that let me display to any X server on my network. As for being boss friendly... do you really take your boss down to the machine room to show them a GUI? I'd say it's far friendlier to show them the same information on my personal workstation. Or even at my boss' own workstation without them having to leave their desk.Re:Something fishy... - Netware is like that (Score:1)
Re:that's a load of crap (Score:1)
Technology has advanced a little since then, and NetWare has too.
I still want to know why Undelete on an NT File server requires third party software.
Re:Where's Netscape (Score:1)
Re:Something fishy... - Netware is like that (Score:1)
The reliability graphs and figures were also shocking. 90% reliability for AD is *propostrous*. 100% reliability is key, no matter how bad it performs. I rather have my data come back *intact*, than having my data back fast and corrupted.
Sorry... Graphs? Why not generate graphs as
Obviously you have never heard of programs like screen(1), a 'window manager' for the console/terminal. I can open as much 'windows' and 'control panels' as I like.
A GUI is far from impressive. Why coerce the CPU to do all that graphics footwork, when it can use that horsepower to provide better/faster file access for example. I don't give a rats ass what my boss thinks about GUI. He can run it on his desktop, but it's staying away from *my* servers.
My 2 shekels
Novell is in this business for years - MS isn't (Score:1)
How can anybody think, MS will get it right for the first time? Do you think any reasonably sized company will switch from NDS v8 to AD 1.0? Nobody wants to lose his/her job, so...
Re:Dirty little game (Score:1)
Then *retract* your statement: ... and I know that I've NEVER been impressed with ANYTHING I've seen from Novell.
If it's obvious you know nothing about directory services, then don't post *bullshit*.
Re:Something fishy... - Netware is like that (Score:1)
But the video drivers do, and that's *much* better.
Re:Something fishy... - Netware is like that (Score:1)
Re:Bias? (Score:1)
Every single file does not have an associated NDS opject. File level security is seperate from NDS level.
No biggie, your point is still valid. When you can store every single printer, workstation, user, server, application, etc. configuration for a global 50,000 employee company in one place, that's pretty cool.
NOVELL IS THE FUTURE (Score:1)
Re:Novell does kind of rule though, (Score:1)
I beg to differ. I have been managing GroupWise systems since 1992 (it was called Word Perfect Office at that time) and in my opinion GW is the best enterprise e-mail platform around. It scales incredibly well...I have had GW systems with over 25,000 users. The current versions are fully integrated with NDS. The damn thing is bomb-proof. If you're having problems with it drop me a line and I'll help you out...
Mad Morf
ooh, ooh, I know (Score:1)
Re:So what? (Score:1)
Re:Surprise? (Score:1)
Re:Bah, they are equal (Score:2)
Novell v. Microsoft... (Score:2)
As for stability, it's an admin's dream. Power, extendibility, insert buzzword here, Novell is just plain great.
As for why you don't need those directory services, for your home machine, you don't. Now run a business. A large business. Now you need them.
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