Journal Timex's Journal: The US Constitution: Unconstitutional? 48
There has been a lot of discussion in the recent past about President George W. Bush's apparent disregard for the US Constitution, usually surrounding a comment he made that it was "just a piece of paper".
The courts of this nation, on the other hand, apparently consider it worth less than that.
The problem surrounds a growing concern that Barrack Obama is not qualified to be president, according to the requirements of the US Constitution. The courts have, time and again, refused to hear the cases brought before them to address the matter.
Most recently, a case was thrown out when Alan Keyes (et al.) asked that the California Secretary of State review Obama's eligibility. In effect, the California Supreme Court is saying that it doesn't really matter what the US Constitution says.
Other cases (in a list copied from here) that have been brought include:
- New Jersey attorney Mario Apuzzo has filed a case on behalf of Charles Kerchner and others alleging Congress didn't properly ascertain that Obama is qualified to hold the office of president.
- Pennsylvania Democrat Philip Berg has three cases pending, including Berg vs. Obama in the 3rd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, a separate Berg vs. Obama which is under seal at the U.S. District Court level and Hollister vs. Soetoro a/k/a Obama, (now dismissed) brought on behalf of a retired military member who could be facing recall to active duty by Obama.
- Leo Donofrio of New Jersey filed a lawsuit claiming Obama's dual citizenship disqualified him from serving as president. His case was considered in conference by the U.S. Supreme Court but denied a full hearing.
- Cort Wrotnowski filed suit against Connecticut's secretary of state, making a similar argument to Donofrio. His case was considered in conference by the U.S. Supreme Court, but was denied a full hearing.
- Former presidential candidate Alan Keyes headlines a list of people filing a suit in California, in a case handled by the United States Justice Foundation, that asks the secretary of state to refuse to allow the state's 55 Electoral College votes to be cast in the 2008 presidential election until Obama verifies his eligibility to hold the office. The case is pending, and lawyers are seeking the public's support. [This is the case that was recently thrown out. --T]
- Chicago attorney Andy Martin sought legal action requiring Hawaii Gov. Linda Lingle to release Obama's vital statistics record. The case was dismissed by Hawaii Circuit Court Judge Bert Ayabe.
- Lt. Col. Donald Sullivan sought a temporary restraining order to stop the Electoral College vote in North Carolina until Barack Obama's eligibility could be confirmed, alleging doubt about Obama's citizenship. His case was denied.
- In Ohio, David M. Neal sued to force the secretary of state to request documents from the Federal Elections Commission, the Democratic National Committee, the Ohio Democratic Party and Obama to show the presidential candidate was born in Hawaii. The case was denied.
- Also in Ohio, there was the Greenberg v. Brunner case which ended when the judge threatened to assess all case costs against the plaintiff.
- In Washington state, Steven Marquis sued the secretary of state seeking a determination on Obama's citizenship. The case was denied.
- In Georgia, Rev. Tom Terry asked the state Supreme Court to authenticate Obama's birth certificate. His request for an injunction against Georgia's secretary of state was denied by Georgia Superior Court Judge Jerry W. Baxter.
- California attorney Orly Taitz has brought a case, Lightfoot vs. Bowen, on behalf of Gail Lightfoot, the vice presidential candidate on the ballot with Ron Paul, four electors and two registered voters.
The common point here is that the only "evidence" provided by the Obama campaign to support his citizenship claim is a proxy document issued by the state of Hawaii. This document is usually issued when a citizen (in this case Obama's mother) wishes to register a birth that happened outside a Hawaiian hospital (either because it happened at home or outside the country). The question is where the birth happened. Sufficient doubt is raised because one family member (Obama's half sister) is quoted giving two different Hawaiian hospitals as his place of birth, while other family members (on his father's side) claim they were present at his birth in Kenya. This becomes an issue, they say, because the law at the time require had age and time requirements that Obama's mother did not meet, so the place of actual birth is an important factor.
Despite his claims that he wants to run a "transparent government", Obama continues to refuse to provide documents that would settle the question once and for all. The manner by which he is doing this only makes him look more guilty of having something to hide.
If Obama decides to have a theme song, it should be this.
Get over it (Score:2)
The sad tragedy of America died between the Mexican war and 1860.
Your ugly Empire had no real rule of law, there ever after.
What do you want him to provide? (Score:2)
Furthermore, if one believes that he was born in Kenya, then you need to explain why the birth was registered in Hawaii. One would hav
Nobody except the losers care ... (Score:2)
At this point, nobody who counts cares anyway, so "that dog won't hunt." "It's dead, Jim." "Nothing to see here - move on." "That and $2 will get you a coffee and donut." He has provided the necessary paperwork to satisfy those who count, as required by law. I'd tell everyone else to shove off too, if I were him.
The winners don't care, the losers are so discredited that it doesn't matter anyway, (though we still get a chuckle out of the latest from the Sarah Palin White Trash Saga).
In the end, we're w
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He already provided an official birth certificate from Hawaii.
No, he hasn't. In fact, when people have asked the State of Hawaii to disclose details on the original birth certificate, the state refused (as they are required to do by Hawaiian law). The Certificate of Live Birth actually attests to the fact that there is a birth certificate on file with the State of Hawaii, but it does not say much else. It certainly does not state where the birth certificate originated, else this whole line of reasoning would have been a non-issue from the start.
And why would there have been a birth announcement in the paper in Hawaii if he was born in Kenya as some claim?
For the same reason
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Myself, I have not been satisfied with anything Obama (and his legal team) has said or done on this issue, and I refuse to consider Obama anything more than a pretender to the presidency.
See my pair of replies below. You're completely off base by even questioning his citizenship and right to be President. He is a natural-born citizen, regardless of where he was born.
Unless of course you want to try questioning whether his mother really is his mother, but at that point I'd say it's time to call the men
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One cannot verify the validity of documentation that is said to exist (by Kenyan officials) but is not made available for examination.
And
People are trying to get the courts to demand the alleged documentation, so the courts can make a decision on it.
It sounds like people need to be bringing this suit up in Kenya, not the US. The US courts have no valid jurisdiction to demand anything of the Kenyan government.
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It sounds like people need to be bringing this suit up in Kenya, not the US. The US courts have no valid jurisdiction to demand anything of the Kenyan government.
There are sufficient claims to the location of BHO's birth, based on the statements of his family alone to wonder if there are documents on file in Kenya, but those documents (if they do exist) are immaterial. IF BHO was born in Kenya, then the actual birth certificate on file in Hawaii should reflect that. Hawaiian officials are quoted that they have a valid birth certificate on file in accordance with their policies and procedures, but they have not said a whit about where the birth certificate is from.
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IF (Obama) was born in Kenya, then the actual birth certificate on file in Hawaii should reflect that.
So then are you not accepting His Hawaiian Birth Certificate [factcheck.org] that was made available during the campaign? If so, what in particular are you looking for instead? We are talking about documentation related to the 1960's, remember.
Hawaiian officials are quoted that they have a valid birth certificate on file in accordance with their policies and procedures, but they have not said a whit about where the birth certificate is from.
Do you have a source for that statement? And if the "valid birth certificate" you refer to is indeed on file with the Hawaiian government, and it contradicts his birth in Honolulu as stated on the released birth certificate, what advantage would there be for the Hawaiian governm
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You may recall that several months ago I asked you to have any person of Hawaiian birth - 40 years of age or older - provide the same sort of documentation for themselves that you wish Mr. Obama to provide, to prove that such a document is possible to extract from the Hawaiian government. That is, IIRC, a "birth certificate" instead of a "certificate of live birth".
Any luck with that yet?
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I don't know anyone in (or from) Hawaii. Do you?
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Yes, but I'm not the one trying to prove the documentation you want is actually available. :-)
Seriously, there's got to be at least ONE 40+ Hawaii native willing to do this, right? Try craigslist or something.
"growing concern"? (Score:1)
Or is Rush just getting louder? Like the man said, concern over the constitution was lost a long time ago. Only I put the date a little earlier, say around 1797 or so. Now excuse me, I have to get back to my regularly scheduled panic attack over the economy.
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Or is Rush just getting louder?
I don't know what Rush has been saying. I haven't bothered to listen to him since the early 1990s. I am usually busy (read: away from radio) when he's on the air anyway.
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Just making fun. By "growing", what's growing? the level of real interest? or simply the crescendo from the same crowd screaming for attention and advertising dollars?
I think this is a distraction (Score:2)
However, there are plenty of other avenues to oppose the POTUS. I'm not sure, given the amount of crow so many in power would have to eat, that this is the best point of attack.
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Roberts' dual swearings-in would seem to put this particular question out of reach.
The dual ceremonies were to put to rest any complaints about the fact that there were several mistakes (stuttering, really) made during the first ceremony. I can't say I blame either for being nervous during the first ceremony: I was nervous enough when I enlisted in the armed forces.
WTF? (Score:2)
The Hawaii department of vital statistics says the document provided by the Obama campaign is legit and furthermore that he was indeed born in Hawaii on the stated date. Case closed. See the "full faith and credit" clause of the Constitution if you don't agree.
The department of vital statistics hasn't released any documents because under the law they can't.
In order for a court to investigate the underlying documents someone with proper standing would have to file a case in the appropriate court. I don't bel
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The Hawaii department of vital statistics says the document provided by the Obama campaign is legit and furthermore that he was indeed born in Hawaii on the stated date. Case closed.
NO. That is not what was said. KITV in Honelulu had this to say [kitv.com]:
Fukino said she and the registrar of vital statistics, Alvin Onaka, have personally verified that the health department holds Obama's original birth certificate.
"Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawaiâi, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawaiâi State Department of Health has Sen. Obamaâ(TM)s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures," Fukino said.
So... They only admitted that they have a valid birth certificate on file. They never said that Obama was actually born in Hawaii.
The department of vital statistics hasn't released any documents because under the law they can't.
This is absolutely true.
In order for a court to investigate the underlying documents someone with proper standing would have to file a case in the appropriate court.
This is also true, and it has been attempted. I think the best chance of getting any actual confirmation of information will come from a case involving several active members of our military, who argue that they, as officers charged with obeying presidential orders, must know without a do
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So... They only admitted that they have a valid birth certificate on file. They never said that Obama was actually born in Hawaii.
You are parsing that way too much.
"the Hawaii State Department of Health has Sen. Obama's original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures"
Why would that be the case if Obama wasn't born in Hawaii? Furthermore if Obama wasn't born in Hawaii wouldn't the people in the Hawaii Department of Health who have seen the documents have a duty to inform the Secretary of State and Attorney General of that fact? Conversely if the Secretary of State or Attorney General had any questi
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So... They only admitted that they have a valid birth certificate on file. They never said that Obama was actually born in Hawaii.
You are parsing that way too much.
No, I'm not. Methinks you're willfully reading into the statement more than was intended. It sounds to me like they're trying to (1) not lie, so they can't get busted if it turns out Obama wasn't born on American soil, (2) keep to the spirit and letter of Hawaiian law by not admitting to anything more than they really have to about the content of his original birth certificate.
"the Hawaii State Department of Health has Sen. Obama's original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures"
Why would that be the case if Obama wasn't born in Hawaii?
According to their own law, a CoLB could be issued if a child was born of a Hawaiian resident outside of the state of Hawaii. Thi
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I'd expect an AC to keep on topic or keep fingers off keyboard. ;) Creationism has nothing to do with this discussion.
OFFS (Score:2)
The whole Obama-born-in-Hawaii-or-not thing is a red herring. It makes no difference to whether or not he is qualified to be President. The reason is that his mother (undeniably his mother, unless you want to get really wacky) was an American citizen at the time of his birth, therefore he is by the "law of the blood" (ius sanguinis [wikipedia.org]) a natural-born citizen. He could have been born on Mars and it wouldn't make a shred of difference.
My kids, for example, were born in Germany, but (provided they spend some ti
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Addendum, since this also invariably comes up when the subject is raised: Even though my kids have dual citizenship, they still would qualify for the office of President. Multiple citizenships have no bearing on it -- you're not "half of one and half the other", but a full citizen of both countries, with all rights and obligations thereto (thus my son will have to serve in the German draft as well as register for Selective Service in the US).
Therefore Obama's having had the right to claim British Overseas
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Your children fall under a slightly different version of law.
This, from http://www.aca.ch/hisuscit.htm [www.aca.ch]:
1952 The Immigration and Nationality Act of June 27, 1952, 66 Stat. 163, 235, 8 U.S. Code Section 1401 (b). (Section 301 of the Act).
"Section 301. (a) The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth:
"(1) a person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof;
"(7) a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States, who prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than ten years, at least five of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years.
...so unless a lawyer should care to correct me, I understand this to mean that a child born outside the United States who has at least one American parent, inherited American citizenship if the American parent were at least 19 years of age and if that parent spent at least ten years in the United States or its posession(s). Last time I checked, everyone agrees that Ms Ann Dunham [wikipedia.org] was eighteen years of age
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I do believe that gurgling sound is that of your theory, going down the drain.
You could save yourself some embarrassment and trouble if you had read my link more carefully. To wit:
(g) (B)...This proviso shall be applicable to persons born on or after December 24, 1952, to the same extent as if it had become effective in its present form on that date...
The law retroactively recognized and implemented case law. Obama (born 1961) is just as much under that law as my kids are.
Cheers,
Ethelred
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Some sources have said his mother was underage at the time, and thus unable to confer natural-born citizenship [wnd.com]. His birth citizenship status would thus be determined by his father, who most definitely was not an American. There's also the minor matter of his having traveled to Pakistan [freerepublic.com] at
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The fact that the federal courts -- most of which were appointed by Republicans, including a majority of the Supreme Court, thus no partisan bias on their part -- have refused to even contemplate such arguments demonstrates their sheer stupidity.
See my other reply above. The law was changed retroactively, so even if the law at the time would have been insufficient, it is now sufficient, which is all that matters. Obama was born to an American citizen after 1952, therefore he is a natural-born citizen, no
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What proof do we have of this "fact?" The certificate of live birth doesn't provide that information. It says that Hawaii has a birth certificate on file, but it doesn't state a place of birth. The actual birth certificate would have that information, but nobody has seen it. You are aware that there are circumstances for which Hawaii will issue a birth certificate for out-of-state births,
Re:"facts" (Score:1)
What proof do we have of this "fact?" ...(snip)
-- Bush killed terrorists. Obama kills the economy.
speaking of "facts"....can you name ONE "Terrorist" that "Bush killed"?
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Don't be such a pedantic twat. We all know he didn't personally go out and blow some hajji's shit away. If you can't see the progress that has been made in Iraq and (to an admittedly lesser extent) Afghanistan, then there's no help for you.
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We all know he didn't personally go out and blow some hajji's shit away.
Very True....so Bush did NOT kill Terrorists?
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What proof do we have of this "fact?" The certificate of live birth doesn't provide that information. It says that Hawaii has a birth certificate on file, but it doesn't state a place of birth. The actual birth certificate would have that information, but nobody has seen it. You are aware that there are circumstances for which Hawaii will issue a birth certificate for out-of-state births, right?
I'm sure that even if Hawaii did produce such a document, y'all would claim it is a forgery (y'all tried that w
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Engaging in projection, aren't we? You have no idea what my reaction would be...most likely disappointment if it turns out that I'm wrong. If you're so confident that the actual birth certificate would be exculpatory with regard to 0bama's eligibility, why aren't you also clamoring for it to be produced so it'd shut up people like me?
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Well, I know why EU's not "clamouring" - it's because he doesn't care about frivolous shit. Honestly, re-read your sentence. You pretty much just told him he has a responsibility to help you push your crazy ass theories. What the fuck is that shit?
Now me, I'd be all for hiding the certificate as long as
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Engaging in projection, aren't we? You have no idea what my reaction would be...most likely disappointment if it turns out that I'm wrong.
Y'all already tried to claim the existing document is a forgery, rather than shut up, so the precedent is there. Other than that, what CS said: I'm not responsible for proving your theory.
When the Hawaii state authorities and numerous judges (from both parties!) are satisfied that the existing document is sufficient (along with the US Code bits I quoted regarding iu
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What proof do we have of this "fact?" The certificate of live birth doesn't provide that information.
Uh, yes it does. Try looking at it, real careful-like. You might notice the part that says:
CITY, TOWN OR LOCATION OF BIRTH
HONOLULU
Now, I'm no cartographer, but I'm given to understand that Honolulu is a location in Hawaii.
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See my other reply above. The law was changed retroactively, so even if the law at the time would have been insufficient, it is now sufficient, which is all that matters. Obama was born to an American citizen after 1952, therefore he is a natural-born citizen, no matter where his mother had been. (Not carrying a passport may be a felony, but it does not disprove being a citizen, which requires a formal act with the stated intent to lose American citizenship -- see 1482 USC and 1481 USC). If Obama's mother really had renounced her citizenship, the State Department would have record of it. If not, she's still as much a citizen as she ever was.
So why isn't Obama willing to let anyone see the documents that would shut the nay-sayers up? If what you say is true, then his school documents would state that he was an American citizen anyway, and the matter would be settled once and for all.
If his documents said anything else, then either of two possible situations exist: (1) Obama is not an American citizen after all, and has no business in the White House, or (2) Obama took advantage of programs intended for non-citizens. If I remember correctly (wh
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So why isn't Obama willing to let anyone see the documents that would shut the nay-sayers up?
Because the nay-sayers have already made it plain that they will move the goalposts -- such as when they claimed his Hawaiian document was a forgery. And the courts have not found any merit to the claims, so he has no reason to answer pathetic morons who don't know when to stop (present company included).
Of course, since you refuse to provide any proof that you are in fact a US citizen, I guess you must not be
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Because the nay-sayers have already made it plain that they will move the goalposts -- such as when they claimed his Hawaiian document was a forgery. And the courts have not found any merit to the claims, so he has no reason to answer pathetic morons who don't know when to stop (present company included).
I don't care if it's a forgery or not. MY point is that the terms of acquiring a Certificate of Live Birth stipulate only that the applicant had claimed Hawaii as the primary residence for at least a year before the application, and Obama's mother certainly complied with that requirement. The CoLB itself does not seem to indicate the source of the birth certificate it represents, and neither did the notice in the local paper. The CoLB only states that a birth certificate is "on file". Recent statements
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The CoLB only states that a birth certificate is "on file".
And there is your answer. Hawaii's own officials (including its Republican governor) have repeatedly said that that document is enough to prove to others that he was born in Hawaii (and if there is any further question, they do indeed have a more detailed document on file, but they are forbidden by Hawaii law from handing it out). Therefore -- end of story. The document exists, and Hawaii says so. For the rest, see the full faith and credit claus [wikipedia.org]
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And there is your answer. Hawaii's own officials (including its Republican governor) have repeatedly said that that document is enough to prove to others that he was born in Hawaii (and if there is any further question, they do indeed have a more detailed document on file, but they are forbidden by Hawaii law from handing it out). Therefore -- end of story.
You keep missing one extremely important fact: a Certificate of Live Birth does not guarantee birth within the State of Hawaii. It does not now, nor has it ever. It only guarantees that there is a birth certificate on file, regardless of where it came from. A child could have been born in Hawaii, Texas, Japan or Kenya. If a parent could have claimed Hawaii as a primary residence for a minimum of one year immediately before the birth, then that parent could have the birth certificate of the child registe
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Oh good, yet more Timex-grade blather! I LOVES ME SOME BLATHER!
You keep missing one extremely important fact: a Certificate of Live Birth does not guarantee birth within the State of Hawaii. It does not now, nor has it ever.
And you miss that Hawaii state authorities have said that it does, and that the document they have on file also does. Including its Republican governor [wikipedia.org], who said [whatreallyhappened.com], "The state registrar of the Department of Health's vital statistics record office can verify Sen. Barack Obama's bir
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You've been taking troll lessons? You're doing a bang-up job of it.
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More like "I don't suffer fools gladly".
Cheers,
Ethelred
Which is really strange (Score:2)
Since shouldn't a State of Hawaii Birth Certificate settle the matter? After all, from Wikipedia:
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After all, from Wikipedia
I think Wikipedia effectively removed themselves from the list of competent authorities when they started blackballing bits of information that were accurately reported, properly supported according to Wikipedia requirements, and properly titled.
shouldn't it be trivially easy to get a birth certificate from the State of Hawaii?
No. According to Hawaiian law, the only people that can get a birth certificate (or, in this case, a "Certificate of Live Birth", a document that only states that a birth certificate exists in the state's archives, regardless of its origin) is the person that it is