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Dying Babies and The Myth of American Freedom

Posted by JonKatz on Wed Oct 13, 1999 09:00 AM
from the technology-forcing-us-to-face-reality dept.
One of America's most enduring and self-deluded myths about itself is that it's a free, thus morally superior country. It's not, as last weeks' feature on Princeton Bioethicist Peter Singer made clear. This society is riddled with unapproachable taboos. But technology is changing that, making some of our self-inflated notions of ourselves actually come true.

Even as technology systematically liberates the control of ideas from the hoary grip of ideologues, educators, clergymen and dogmatic politicians, the underlying tensions in culture and society grow. We are freer than ever, but we seem to like it less all the time.

In the past few weeks, a series of institutions and public figures have run headlong into America's mythology about itself, particularly the demonstrably absurd idea that this is a free country.

Censorship is a natural, perhaps even a biological instinct. Nobody likes to see himself as a censor but everybody, from school principal to parent to mayor to flamer, seems to feel the call. We almost reflexively want to quiet what disturbs, provokes and offends us.

Check out almost any topic or opinion posted on Slashdot. Even here, there's usually one or more - frequently lots more -- messages declaring that a person or idea doesn't belong here or shouldn't be expressed, assuming that the offending idea hasn't already been moderated into oblivion. And this is one of the freest places in media, new or old.

But technology, as any teenager knows, is a wicked censorship slayer. Almost all information is now available almost everywhere. Memes, ideas, arguments, opinions - none can be universally corralled or suppressed. Heretics and hell-raisers have never thrived so much.

Priests and ministers can't control dogma, lawyers can't monopolize the arcane and expensive language of law, politicians can't impose ideology, publishers can't monopolize editorial content, academics can't keep a lock on research, and journalism can't control the social agenda. Technologies like the Net and the Web have made this so.

But here's the irony. Even as technology makes censorship virtually impossible, people keep trying harder to do it.

The Brooklyn Museum of Art faces the loss of a third of its annual budget, even eviction, because the mayor of New York City finds a painting in an exhibit offensive.

Some leaders of the Reform Party are demanding Minnesota Governor Jesse Ventura's ouster because of a Playboy interview in which he said, among other things, that people who support organized religion are weak-minded and needy. (Ventura ran his campaign on the Net, by-passing traditional media and expensive campaign structures). Good thing H.L. Mencken, the legendary columnist who savagely skewered members of the clergy as hypocrites, blowhards and airheads, died a generation ago. He couldn't get a job on any paper in America today.

GOP Presidential Candidate Pat Buchanan has been told - by Senator John McCain among others -- to leave the Republican Party because his book argues that the United States had no pressing self-interest in entering World War II.

And in perhaps the ugliest and most significant of all these conflicts, Princeton bioethicist Peter Singer has been reviled as a mass murderer and attacked by politicians, university contributors and trustees, and advocates for the handicapped.

He's been forced to teach in a guarded, unmarked classroom because he's argued that in certain circumstances, parents ought to have the right to kill a severely disabled newborn in order to prevent or end the child's suffering and preserve the family's happiness and well-being. Euthanasia, he argues, is sometimes a lot more compassionate than the withdrawal of life support systems.


The First Amendment has never been a particularly popular one. Americans have always embraced freedom until somebody says something they don't like. Then they like to fire the offenders, chase them away, close them down.

Technology makes all of these options unworkable. Hundreds of cable channels, faxes and videotape, e-mail and cellphones make the notion of quelling an idea or putting the person who advocates it out of business ridiculous. The Net is inherently uncensorable. There are too many chat forums, messaging systems, mailing lists and websites, and not enough cops.

When New York Mayor Guiliani threatened to shut down the Brooklyn Museum for displaying a painting of a black Madonna with a clump of elephant dung affixed to her chest, singer David Bowie announced he was putting the "offending" exhibit up on his website.

Buchanan regularly takes to talk radio and cable interview broadcasts to explain his philosophies about World War II directly to the public.

New technologies like the Net and the Web have liberated discussions of sexuality which, until a decade or so ago, were dangerous, if not impossible for most Americans.

Earlier this week, Slashdot published a story about Peter Singer in which his actual views - rather than outrageous and simple-minded distortions - were discussed.

The Singer controversy is, in fact, a significant reason to stop and consider the new reality of freedom and technology.

Singer is a complex, brave and brilliant philosopher and teacher. He is an empassioned animal rights activist and has argued for years that affluent people have a responsibility to donate some of their money to the less fortunate (he donates a fifth of his salary to groups that feed the poor).

He is doing precisely what thinkers, academics and critics are supposed to do: raise chillingly complex ethical issues that confront society but are rarely talked about. Princeton futurist Freeman Dyson, for example, has long hailed the idea that genetic engineering will remove the physically ill from the world. Genetic engineering is rapidly pushing us towards the idea of a Master Race - at least for wealthy, techno-centered cultures which can afford it - in which all humans brought into the world are tall, lean, smart, healthy and attractive.

But Dyson's much more politic about the way in which he expresses his ideas. He's never advocated anything as extreme as killing critically-ill newborns - a jarring idea. Some say that clearly is murder. But Singer doesn't advocate genocide or the callous disposal of the disabled. He's arguing that in extreme circumstances, parents should have the right to terminate the life of severely disabled newborns who have no self-consciousness or chance to survive.

Personally, I haven't even begun to formulate what I think about this idea. But I want-need to read, mull and talk about it. The wanton use of terms like "murder" and "genocide" make that impossible, and that means we aren't free either.

Singer is no monster, and the notion that he's an advocate of mass murder seems outrageously simple-minded and hysterical, a club to shut him up rather than a way to support or refute his ideas. The United States is using medical and other technologies that may result in genetic selection to remove physical, even psychological problems like alcoholism that are increasingly being linked to heredity (see Tuesday's story on Slashdot on genetically engineered kids).

Parents using in vitro fertilization and other contemporary fertility treatments routinely participate in disturbing genetic selections. Doctors performing IVF, for example, routinely examine egg and sperm matches for the "healthy ones." Some prospective parents have sought permission to abort fetuses over concerns about gender, even cosmetic issues.

As genetic screening tells prospective parents more and more about the children they're about to bring into the world, parents will inevitably - right or wrong - make complex choices about the children they choose to raise.

Do they want tall or short ones? Boys or girls? And especially, do they want - can they cope with? -- terminally ill or severely disabled ones? Inevitably, parents will argue that they have the right to make these decisions for themselves.

Parents already can avoid bringing children with certain serious diseases into the world through prenatal testing. Do they also, as Singer suggests, have the moral right to withdraw life support, or even approve lethal injections?

This is, after all, a country which wildly celebrates techno- medical "breakthroughs" like multiple births, even though they pose enormous health risks to the children involved and require massive and expensive public and community assistance.

The McCaughey family in Iowa was showered with gifts, from diapers to a new home, for their septuplets. But the country didn't seem to want to consider the fact that the fertility drugs they'd used had created a whole new kind of high-tech welfare family, producing children whose parents couldn't possibly support them financially, and perhaps not emotionally, either. Multiple births of fewer than six or seven aren't even stories any longer, they're so common, even as many pediatricians warn that such children are at high risk for illness and disability. In a world whose population is nearing six billion, the use of medical technologies to breed human offspring - in growing multiples -- transcends religion or philosophy. It may be the 21st century's most urgent social problem, particularly as food production continues to decline.

Patriotism is invoked by blockheads in the United States so often that it's easy to lose sight of the particular genius of the people who hatched the country. Singer exemplifies America's founders prescient convictions - born out of centuries of observing the gruesome interaction between religion and monarchies and free speech -- that it's often the most upsetting ideas that warrant discussion - and need protection. If Singer focuses the country's attention on the impact of ill-considered medical research and genetic engineering, then he's a hero, not a villain.

If you're handicapped, it's easy to fear what Singer seems to be advocating. But he argues that what he's proposing is compassion and the importance of a healthy life, which he sees as much of a right as life itself.

This is as complicated and difficult a technological and philosophical debate as there is. But it's exactly the sort of discussion America needs more of, not less, in an era when supercomputing, artificial intelligence and life, and genetic engineering make the issues raised in Mary Shelley's "Frankenstein" seem simple. Genetic engineering is becoming a regular topic on this website, but not in the information spectrum off-line, where it's almost never mentioned.

Sociologists, historians and technologists argue that technology is never autonomous; it only does what we want it to do. But medical technology is, in fact, out of control, outstripping our ability to consider or comprehend it. We ought to thank Singer for having the brains and the heart to make us face these issues while craven journalists, religious leaders and pols hide their heads in the sand.

If America really were a free country, Singer would be able to talk about his ideas in the open, in a classroom without guards. He'd be able to list his classes in the catalogue along with the other profs. The Net, at least, makes it certain that these controversial memes will at least be considered.

And Gov. Ventura ought to be just as free to challenge the structure and function of organized religion, one of the most powerful institutions in American life and also one of the bloodier influences in modern history.

While the Internet has completely altered the context of free speech - online, people can and do find places to discuss anything -- these discussions take place underground, in a sense, at least for now. They're less welcome in the open, in the central institutions and outlets that collectively help set the country's political and social agenda.

Few major newspapers' op-ed pages would host a free-wheeling discussion of the issues Singer raises. No member of Congress would openly debate them or discuss them in campaigns. Few churches or synagogues would talk about them. No network news organization or newsmagazine would ever question organized religion the way Ventura has done.

In such a timid atmosphere, it's hard to know whether any of these ideas have legitimacy and are worth exploring, or whether some deserve to be roundly rejected. The so-called marketplace of ideas can't function effectively. In a country that talks so much about freedom, there isn't nearly as much as we and our elected leaders pretend.

It's ironic amidst all the commercial and patriotic drum-banging about the Millenium underway, that technology is forcing a country deluded with notions of its own self-righteousness to actually be free, rather than simply make the claim.

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  • Hmm... (Score:4)

    by pb (1020) on Tuesday October 12 1999, @07:08PM (#1618276)
    I don't really see where you're going with this one. America is legally a pretty unencumbered, free country. People can believe whatever they want to believe. Whether or not it's popular is a completely different issue.

    Censorship can be bad. Imposing censorship on other people without their knowledge or consent is generally bad. Self-censorship (like slashdot) is also called content-filtering, and it can be very good. I like being able to block ads and spam, turning off extra javascript, and I don't mind spending some time moderating comments because I think it makes slashdot a nicer, more comprehensible, relevant place for everyone.

    Natural selection pretty much took care of babies who were too ill or sickly to survive. However, people tend to take care of them now. If they want to do that, it's their business, their money, and their lives. If they want the right to decide whether a baby who wouldn't normally live should be allowed to, I suppose that's their right, but there would need to be some guidelines to prevent abuse. Genetic screening might help too.

    I wouldn't trust genetic engineering yet until it is well-proven. Why implement a technology when you know you don't understand its ramifications?

    And, finally, do you like posting complicated, controversial articles of dubious relevance on slashdot? You know the kind of response you're going to get. Maybe a little bit more self-censorship might be in order. :)
  • Jon Katz, Anti-religious. by Kid Zero (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:11AM
  • Devo by Jimhotep (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:11AM
  • My impression of this... by Kintanon (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:19AM
  • Thank you for writing this article. As much as it's going to be debated as to whether it belongs on Slashdot or not, it makes a lot of points that people don't think about.

    America is on of the freest countries in the world. But in absolute terms we still have a long ways to go - it's full of laws that have no real purpose being there, and there are plenty of people wanting to go away from freedom.

    It's easy to talk about how wonderful this country is if you're a white wealthy straight christian male. Start moving away from this type of person and watch freedoms decrease, both legal freedoms and social freedoms. You're gay? Sorry, you can't marry who you want even though we can't offer one good reason to make it illegal. You're atheist? Heck, you're not even allowed to take public office in some states, not like people would vote for you anyways.

    People should be willing to discuss any idea, no matter how radical. After all, even if the idea itself is bad and useless, it can spawn other discussions and ideas that can be useful.

    I'm hoping you're right, that the net will not only prevent censorship, but that it will help encourage the next generation to be willing to listen and discuss the controvercial ideas, not just reject them out of hand. To eliminate the remaining 'taboo' topics and opinions, such as that religion has bad effects.

    America, land of bigotry, home of censorship. Where freedom is selectively given out to those that can buy it.
    ---
  • Lawsuits are being used to censor. by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:23AM
  • Re:Hmm... (Score:5)

    by RangerElf (32760) <gustavo.cordova@gma[ ]com ['il.' in gap]> on Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:23AM (#1618285) Homepage

    Is it truly freedom, when you expect to be (at least) socially blasted for expressing controversial ideas? I don't care about the legal structure, but about society. Sure, legally they can't touch you, but you become ostracized by your peers. Is that the mark of a free and educated society?

    What makes freedom is education, the knowledge that you should not be attacked for proffering a thought-out opinion, requesting consideration, or at the least discussion. At the same time, one can not inflict one's prejudices upon others.

    Why should Jon NOT post his "complicated, controversial articles" on slashdot? I happen to like his articles; I've always considered slashdot to be the place for people who like to read thought-provoking news and articles, not a techo-sheeple palace.

    It's one thing to know many things, and it's another entirely to actually think.

  • by z1lch (35931) on Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:24AM (#1618286) Homepage
    Parents already can avoid bringing children with certain serious diseases into the world through prenatal testing. Do they also, as Singer suggests, have the moral right to withdraw life support, or even approve lethal injections?

    Yes. Absolutely. Just as a woman has the right to terminate an unwanted pregnancy. Just as any person should be able to make a decision/carry out the wishes of an individual's euthenasia. eg. cases of terminal illness. These are huge ethical decisions but should be owned by the people whose lives they most directly effect.

    Ultimately the world suffers from chronic overpopulation/suffering and it aint going to go away in a hurry. As society becomes increasingly competitive, humans may have virtually thrown the key out the window on natural selection but artificially we still have a ethical responsibility to our race and the planet not to further weaken the gene pool. At least not to experience guilt and blackmail from society for making a life changing decision. Survival of the fittest is still relevant in a synthetic kingdom.

  • Re:Jon Katz, Anti-religious. by Kintanon (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:26AM
  • Re:Hmm... by Hard_Code (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:26AM
  • Re:Hmm... by jagular (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:27AM
  • Yawn! by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:27AM
  • A double standard (Score:5)

    by noeld (43600) on Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:27AM (#1618296) Homepage
    Jonkatz says

    The wanton use of terms like "murder" and "genocide" make that impossible, and that means we aren't free either.

    Singer is no monster, and the notion that he's an advocate of mass murder seems outrageously simple-minded and hysterical, a club to shut him up rather than a way to support or refute his ideas.

    So Jon you argue that my using of my free speech to call Singer a monster is hysterical and reduces your liberties while your opinion that he is not a monster is worthy and makes us more free?

    This is an example of using a double standard to try and win an debate. You overlook the possibility that to some of us the idea of killing children is monstrous and evil and anyone that advocates this is an evil monster.

    I believe that the entire argument you make about freedoms is a smokescreen to try and reduce my freedom to speak by twisted emotional blackmail.

    Noel

    Check out the Lance Armstrong Foundation [laf.org]

  • Re:My impression of this... by Laner (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:28AM
  • Censorchip by hoppy (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:29AM
  • Re:Jon Katz, Anti-religious. by bsletten (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:29AM
  • Re:Jon Katz, Anti-religious. So? by dave_d (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:29AM
  • I usually dislike Guliani, but... by Adar (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:30AM
  • Other forms of censorship by Arcys (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:30AM
  • Censorship is a form of disagreement by Chilles (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:30AM
  • Mmmkay by MaximumBob (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:31AM
  • Re:Hmm... by ToastyKen (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:33AM
  • Re:Dung Madonna by bsletten (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:33AM
  • Re:My impression of this... by Hard_Code (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:33AM
  • Re:You cant think what you want in the USA. by Kintanon (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:33AM
  • Another fatwa? by robinjo (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:34AM
  • America is free (Score:4)

    by jd (1658) <imipak@ya[ ].com ['hoo' in gap]> on Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:34AM (#1618315) Homepage Journal
    And that includes people's responses. If you can't censor one side, you can't censor the other, either. Freedom is two-edged, which is precicely why dictators decry it.

    The artwork fiasco, and the New York mayor's response are a case in point. Yes, the art gallery should have the right to show what it likes. On the flip side, the mayor should have the right to say what goes on on property he's responsible for. You can't have one-sided freedom. It's an all or nothing deal. You cannot expect only the side you cheer for to have the right to speak up.

    The mayor has not once said the museum of art can't show what it likes, he's only said it can't show this material on Government property, with Government money. Is that really censorship, when nobody is being stopped? All that's happening is that the mayor has set boundaries - something every person does every day, because it is both healthy and necessary.

    John Katz' choice of a title has shock-value - something you expect from "The National Enquirer" or "The Sun" (the UK newspaper). What it doesn't have is relevence to the article. There's nothing about babies, dying or otherwise, in the story, either literally or figuratively.

    There IS freedom of speech in the USA, but don't expect others not to use it, too, when you say something they don't like. John Katz' arguments are just as much an attempt to censor and muzzle others as they are over censorship of things he doesn't like. So what if this faceless "they" have more power than he does? It's the attitude which matters, and what you do with it.

    I do not agree with censorship, deliberate distortion of facts to deceive or manipulate, or any other attempt to pervert reality. I DON'T differentiate between the alleged agressors and the alleged victims. If something is a definite "wrong", then who does it should not matter. As soon as it does, you have a dictatorship, with one side dictating the reality of the other. Plain and simple.

    Then, there are other aspects to this. This is not a plain and simple situation. It never is. Take the case of the museum of art, again. That pig that was cut in half - a life was sacrificed for people's viewing pleasure. Is this any better than badger baiting, hare coursing or fox hunting? Yet these are either banned or under review, in many countries, as cruel and barbaric. Not surprising, really. It doesn't take an Einstein to figure out that degrading the value and significance of life is, at best, seriously sick and diseased.

    Yet we are to believe that a mayor, who has obligations by law, is being censorus by drawing attention to the fact that he's not going to excuse an exhibit which may be illegal under State and national law. I'm not saying he's "right" - I am wary of the concepts of "right" and "wrong", they are misused so much - but I know damn well that if John Katz ever became President, we'd know censorship like we've never had before.

  • Mini-Katz by ToastyKen (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:35AM
  • short post by Shadukar (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:35AM
  • puleaze by redtoade (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:35AM
  • thank you! by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:35AM
  • Freedom by dianos (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:35AM
  • "Moral Righteousness" = national FUD by MAXOMENOS (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:36AM
  • Re:A double standard by Saige (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:38AM
  • Re:Hmm... by vyesue (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:38AM
  • Re:Hmm... by Erskin (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:38AM
  • I Now Understand. by mochaone (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:39AM
  • Freedom in the US by JustCause (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:39AM
  • Re:My impression of this... by xnixnix (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:39AM
  • gimme a break .. by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:40AM
  • Re:My impression of this... by Hard_Code (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:40AM
  • Re:My impression of this... by Kintanon (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:40AM
  • freedom is only in one's mind by graycloud (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:41AM
  • Reverse censorship by yldob (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:42AM
  • Re:My impression of this... by vyesue (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:42AM
  • Seperation of Church and State by ToastyKen (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:43AM
  • Re: Well said by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:43AM
  • by nevets (39138) on Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:44AM (#1618342) Homepage Journal
    Your right to denounce Singer is perfectly fine.

    The problem is arises when Singer needs guards to speak his mind. The problem I see, is that people are afraid to speak about things that upset them. I'm no different from anyone else. I get upset when someone states something that offends me, but instead of censoring the offending remarks, I argue against them. I try to do an intellectual debate to denounce the offending comments. People have a tendency to flame or cast insults or even worse, violence against individuals instead of pointing out the problems with there discussion.

    The best way to understand things is to listen, even if it is something you dislike.

    Sometimes censorship may be a Good Thing(tm). If you can argue that it is. I would argue that posting the instructions on making bombs on the internet is dangerous, and make a case for censorship of it. Not for opinions in general, but to show a direct consequence of the problems caused by the publishing of that content.

    Steven Rostedt
  • Formulation of Ideas by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:46AM
  • Re:My impression of this... by substrate (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:46AM
  • on the ball by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:46AM
  • Re:A double standard by nevets (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:46AM
  • Typical Katz nonsense by briancarnell (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:48AM
  • Re:The New Disenfranchised by vyesue (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:48AM
  • Being a Nazi in the US by ToastyKen (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:48AM
  • Agree by gfxguy (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:49AM
  • by DrFalkyn (102068) on Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:49AM (#1618353)

    The Brooklyn Museum of Art faces the loss of a third of its annual budget, even eviction, because the mayor of New York City finds a painting in an exhibit offensive.

    Which he is in he perfectly legal right to do so as Mayor of NY. Just because they have the right to say whatever they want doesn't mean we should be forced to fund them!

    Katz, your argument works both ways. Those who called for the removal of Singer, Ventura, and Buchanan had just as much right to free speech. In the case of witholding funding, Singer doesn't have any 'right' to be a professor of Bioethics at Princeton, and Princeton has eveery right to dismiss him if they believe his values are directly opposed to the mission of the university.

    Censorship is a government issue, not a social one. You have the right to free speech within certain bounds. You don't have the right to commit treason and claim you are protected under the first amendment. You can't threaten the president's life. You can't operate a radio station without a permit from the FCC. Yes, I'll probably get flamed for this one but I think all these limits on free speech are reasonable.

    If there was absolute freedom, there would be chaos - Aristotle

  • I Agree... by Rabbins (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:50AM
  • The real problem (Score:4)

    by netwiz (33291) on Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:50AM (#1618356) Homepage
    Is intellectual laziness on the part of the US citizenry (and the human race in general). I spoke with one of my friends at length regarding the gun issues facing our country and world. He constructed a fascinating argument using personal responsibility as the reason why guns should be legal and unencombered. Managed to use the 1920s prohibition as an example. When I brought up the fact that the _exact_same_argument_ (personal responsibility) can be used to promote the legalization of drugs (he did use prohibition as an example), his response was, "No not really. Drugs are bad."

    ?????

    How did this happen? It just amazes me that people are so often blind to flaws in their logic, just because it would force them to change their mind. Reminds me of something the fortune file served up the other day:

    "The very powerful and very stupid have something in common. Instead of changing their mind to fit the facts, they try to change the facts to fit their mind. It can get pretty nasty when you're one of the facts that needs changing."

    I forget who said this. Oh, yah, it was Dr. Who.
  • Re:Hmm... by MattTC (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:51AM
  • The point (Score:4)

    by jflynn (61543) on Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:51AM (#1618358)
    As I write this, I see five comments of six suggesting Katz shut up, or not write the article.

    This demonstrates exactly what he is talking about. As long as people can't speak without the fear of offending others, we aren't truly free. Not that Katz is going to be inhibited by the abuse he gets, but a more timid person with ideas as or more worthwhile might be.

    When someone suggests euthanasia in cases where conciousness isn't present or survival is not possible he is reviled. Maybe the idea is wrong, but a free society attacks the idea, not the person behind it.

    If I were to suggest revolution in my country, and it happened, innocent people would die. How is this any different from the euthanasia controversy? Is suggesting revolution worthy of being named a mass murderer then? And why aren't the founding fathers reviled?

    Examining an idea never hurts. It may be wrong, but in the process of honestly determining that for yourself that you can learn important things.

    Let Katz write. Filter him, or turn your eyes if you think it worthless. You at worst harm yourself that way. Inhibiting free discussion harms everyone else's right to be exposed to ideas they may find more valuable than you.
  • Euthenasia, Censorship, Poly-Ticks, Etc. by [iB] (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:51AM
  • Re:A double standard by Your_Mom (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:52AM
  • Intelligent Discussions by joefission (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:53AM
  • Re:gimme a break .. by Kintanon (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:54AM
  • Re:My impression of this... by Hard_Code (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:55AM
  • Freedoms, Humanity, Belifes.. and ofcourse Tech... by cybrthng (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:55AM
  • Re:Euthenasia + Choice = Freedom by Ray Dassen (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:55AM
  • Re:Dung Madonna by borzwazie (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:55AM
  • Good points by ragnar (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:57AM
  • by AngryMob (89923) on Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:57AM (#1618371)
    Dear noeld,

    I respond to you to say that you have completely understood the point of free speech. You suggest that by denying your right to lambast and shut down Singer, JonKatz is denying free speech. Perhaps in the literal sense this is true. But a qualifier is necessary here, perhaps one that wasn't clear to you.

    Free speech is supposed to advance the expression of ideas. John Stuart Mill presented the thesis that in an ideal society, ANY idea can be aired without fear of being stifled. That is, if you have an objection to an idea, you do not shut it down purely because you find it anathema. This is tantamount to assuming your infallibility, and that is perhaps the greatest mistake anyone can make.

    There is, of course, perfect justification for this. After all, if you find Singer offensive, so what? Is the expression of his offensive idea going to somehow sour the world? Hardly. Why do you find it so galling that someone might have a thought contrary to yours? After all, if your idea is the truth, then how can it suffer when held up against a false idea?

    The actual answer, I believe, is that people do NOT know the truth. They hold a comfortable stance because they can understand it and deal with it, but challenges to this stance therefore become vexing, uncomfortable - and thus, you reason, wrong. You are unwilling to change, even though you are not necessarily right. This is flat out wrong. This is dogmatism at its worst.

    Why do people poke fun at the Catholic Church for its calls for censorship? Because it's inherently ridiculous for any body claiming to know the truth to fear challenges to it. Can you explain for us, Mr. noeld, why you don't want Singer to say what he says? Why do you fear an idea?

    SA
  • hmmm... by Dark Fire (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:58AM
  • The Katz Worldview by Dictator For Life (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:58AM
  • Re:Devo by TheSnakeMan (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:58AM
  • Do what thou will.... by xinit (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:59AM
  • Free speech is not free (gratis) by barlowg (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @04:59AM
  • No myth by Owsley (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:01AM
  • Re:Dung Madonna by Ceallach (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:01AM
  • Hmmm... (Score:4)

    by Millennium (2451) on Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:02AM (#1618382) Homepage
    You know, it's interesting. This is going to get me in a lot of trouble on Slashdot, I already know that. But I've noticed a pattern. First, we have pro-choicers saying that fetuses aren't human (whether or not you believe that isn't the point of this post. They might be or might not be; anyone who says they can prove one way or the other is either lying or deluded in one manner or another). Now, we have a college professor (and a new movement that seems to be growing, if slowly) saying that newborns aren't human. What's next, that small children aren't human? Then adolescents? I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this.

    I respect the pro-choice movement, though I don't follow it. My main problem with it isn't even abortion itself. My problem is this: it denies humanity to a group (which might or might not be human; current technologies don't seem to be able to prove one way or the other), but then it never defines where or when (or, for that matter, why) humanity begins. There are people who would push that age further and further forward, to justify killing for just about any reason. I see this professor as the first example of that; to kill a human being for selfish reasons, justifying it by saying "but it wasn't really human." There are risks involved in having a child, and if you don't think you can handle the possibilities then you shouldn't be putting yourself in a situation where those risks could come back to bite you.

    To kill another being without that being's consent is generally considered a major taboo in just about any culture (sometimes even killing with that person's consent, such as euthanasia, is considered taboo). There's a very good reason for it, though: murder, if allowed, sets a dangerous precedent whereby a person could justify killing anyone he doesn't like. A newborn certainly can't consent to being killed, of course (at least not in any way we can currently understand). That doesn't mean we should try to guess. Ask any disabled person if they've suffered so much as a direct result of their disability that they want to die; I'll guarantee you that nearly all of them will say no. In other words, in most of these euthanasia cases, you would not be doing the child any mercy at all; you would simply be killing a kid because the parents don't want to live up to their newfound responsibilities.

    A free culture is not an anarchistic one. It doesn't mean you can do whatever you want; one must always consider others ("the right to swing my fist ends where the next man's nose begins"). Giuliani was out of line with the art exhibit; that's true. He found the exhibit offensive, but that was no fault of the artist or museum. He has no right to deny others the right to see it, whether by overtly ordering the removal of the art exhibit or by using sneaky tricks like cutting public funds. Jesse Ventura wasn't out of line with his comment about religion, but he could certainly have been more tactful (or at least explained why he believed as he did, rather than simply blurted it out). Making an intelligent argument, which implies backing up your statements ("Religion is for the weak-willed and needy, and this is why..."), is within anyone's rights; simple insults ("Religion is for weak-willed and needy people") are not.

    But enough of this, or else I'll really go into rant mode. If you don't agree, that's fine; if you want to flame, do it over e-mail.
  • Re:Yawn! by borzwazie (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:02AM
  • Re:A good reminder for everyone by dianos (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:02AM
  • Re:Hmm... by dirt_merchant (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:02AM
  • Re:The New Disenfranchised -- disturbing trend by Johann (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:03AM
  • by Wah (30840) on Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:03AM (#1618387) Homepage Journal
    Thanks for the article Jon, this one doesn't suck.

    I'm not sure how long it will take for society as a whole to realize that we have already created a monster we can't control. A monster that spits out information to whoever happens to click on it. Many more attempts will be made to cage it as powerful people learn to fear an educated (and often miseducated) populace. Rationalizing with such cliches as "ignorance is bliss".

    I watched A&E's top 100 people of the millenium the last couple nights. They picked the same #1 as a couple other lists I have seen, Johann Guttenberg (no relation to Steve), and for the same reason. More available information can have HUGE impacts on society as a whole. I couldn't help but laugh to think of the difference in power of a machine that can make paper and ink copies of information, and one that translates magnetic images, over electric line, through an electron gun, lighting up rare earth elements, with information from anywhere in the world. That's pretty impressive.

    I love Jesse Ventura. I've been saying this for a while now and not much has changed. You might not agree with his politics and his personal views. But boy does he have balls when expressing them. He'll say stuff that others are scared to, and because he isn't embarassed or guilty about it, he's gained my respect. His potential as a polititian is still debatable, but he does draw attention and focus which is a very political type thing to do.

    As far as the Singer stuff goes. When we start doing this, the first person I'm going after is Stephen Hawking. It's obvious from his physical inadequacies that he can offer absolutely no value to society and should therefore be removed for the good of the whole. Dammit people, different does not mean worse, it does not mean less, it means different.

    ..and finally..

    The United States is using medical and other technologies that may result in genetic selection to remove physical, even psychological problems like alcoholism that are increasingly being linked to heredity (see Tuesday's story on Slashdot on gentically engineered kids).

    If we start doing gene therapy for alcoholism (a horrible example, Katz) we are truly the laziest, most worthless society to ever have existed. Hey look, i've created a huge problem for myself, anybody got a Quick Fix(tm). Quick Fixes lead to nuclear weapons.

    And just because it's on-topic...

    I very highly recommend the film "American Beauty". Rarely do films shoot straight for the heart of what it is to be American (if you believe in TV commercials that is). A very well done picture that you won't soon forget.

    (*gets off soapbox, takes of rant hat, and gets back to work*)
  • Re:You cant think what you want in the USA. by Hard_Code (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:04AM
  • Debate etiquette by xinit (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:04AM
  • Re:Hmm... by Cuthalion (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:04AM
  • Re:quite obvious that you do not know what you are by TheSnakeMan (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:04AM
  • What a dog's breakfast of knee-jerk reaction by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:06AM
  • The thread ends with Hitler by admiralh (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:06AM
  • Re:A double standard by Field Marshall Stack (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:06AM
  • Slashdot censorship by ouwiyaru (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:06AM
  • Re:My impression of this... by veldrane (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:07AM
  • Re:Jon Katz, Anti-religious. by Hard_Code (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:07AM
  • Cool? by Jon Jungel (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:07AM
  • Re:Dung Madonna by borzwazie (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:07AM
  • Re:gimme a break .. by Kintanon (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:08AM
  • Re:Euthenasia + Choice = Freedom by TheAmigo (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:08AM
  • Re:You cant think what you want in the USA. by Ray Dassen (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:09AM
  • Re:The thread ends with Hitler by drwiii (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:09AM
  • Re:Hmm... by techmage (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:09AM
  • There are always reprocutions to what you say... by Rombuu (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:10AM
  • Re:My impression of this... by noeld (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:11AM
  • Re:Dung Madonna by bsletten (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:11AM
  • Murdering babies, genetic control, oh my. by pwhysall (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:12AM
  • I can so be ignerant if I wanna!! by ScrappyTheObscure (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:13AM
  • Re:America the Beautiful by Hard_Code (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:13AM
  • Chaos by LoudChris (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:13AM
  • Re:My impression of this... by Kintanon (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:13AM
  • by jht (5006) on Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:13AM (#1618417) Homepage Journal
    ...but freedom entails the right for people to be stupid, closed-minded, and sheep-like. In other words, a person is, in fact, free to say or think what they want, but they aren't therefore protected by force from the consequences of their words and thoughts.

    That may be foolish, and it may be wrong, but it's not censorship. It's society.

    I, for one, don't think taxpayer money should pay for any art, regardless of content. Im I a censor? No. I'm not interested in viewpoints or content. I simply don't think government should subsidize any businesses. But what about the Internet, you ask? Wasn't that subsidized?

    Well, the Internet was a defense research project. The bacic technology was invented under defense auspices. But it didn't become the pervasive entity it is today until it was turned over to the private sector.

    Just remember, freedom includes a nearly unlimited right to foolishness.

    - -Josh Turiel
  • Re:I Agree... by Saige (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:13AM
  • Re:Dung Madonna by JordanH (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:15AM
  • Where America sits.... by Rabbins (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:15AM
  • dissing discussion is NOT censorship by jkorty (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:15AM
  • Priorities about freedom differ by rve (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:16AM
  • Re:gimme a break .. by sydj (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:16AM
  • Re:No - we are, in fact, free... by Hard_Code (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:17AM
  • If not here, where? by eudaimonilux (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:17AM
  • Re:My impression of this... by Kintanon (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:17AM
  • Re:My impression of this... by pwhysall (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:18AM
  • Censoring the censors by indigo@dimensional.c (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:18AM
  • Debating Katz the Drooler by Dictator For Life (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:19AM
  • Re:Euthenasia + Choice = Freedom by JohnZed (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:19AM
  • My freedom to speak by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:19AM
  • Re:My impression of this... by Disco Stu (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:19AM
  • Re:Dung Madonna by borzwazie (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:19AM
  • Opinion (warning: "n"-word appears once within) by Rene S. Hollan (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:19AM
  • Definitions are key by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:20AM
  • Re:My impression of this... by arcade (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:20AM
  • Freedom by phlyboi (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:20AM
  • Trite - Problem is PC not censorship by TheBashar (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:21AM
  • Be careful what you ask for... by SpinyNorman (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:21AM
  • Threatening == Censoring by Kukester (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:21AM
  • Re:Hmmm... by Ray Dassen (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:22AM
  • Freedom -- What is it? by hugh_akston (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:22AM
  • Censorship? Anarchy? Huh? What? by zpengo (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:22AM
  • Re:My impression of this... by Disco Stu (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:23AM
  • Re:Hmm... by GnuGrendel (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:24AM
  • Re:Seperation of Church and State by whoop (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:24AM
  • Re:Seperation of Church and State by whoop (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:24AM
  • Re:A double standard by noeld (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:25AM
  • Re:My impression of this... by Biff Cool (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:25AM
  • The Abortion Thing by pwhysall (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:25AM
  • Re:Hmmm... by Hard_Code (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:26AM
  • Buchanan Censored?! Hardly! by Keith Russell (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:27AM
  • Re:Devo by Jimhotep (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:28AM
  • How Does the First Amendment Work? by David Jensen (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:28AM
  • Ventura not oppressed by melancholy_dane (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:29AM
  • Assume Nothing! (Another infinite loop warning) by turg (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:29AM
  • Re:The thread ends with Hitler by Hard_Code (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:29AM
  • Censorship? by G-Man (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:29AM
  • Re:America is free by arcade (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:30AM
  • Re:Dung Madonna by bsletten (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:30AM
  • Ventura by MoToMo (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:31AM
  • Gene pool without a lifeguard! by tilleyrw (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:33AM
  • Re:My impression of this... by Hittman (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:33AM
  • Out of subject ? Noy by Betcour (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:34AM
  • Re:My impression of this... by Rabbins (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:35AM
  • Re:My impression of this... by Kintanon (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:36AM
  • Re:Where America sits.... by Kingpin (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:36AM
  • Re:gimme a break .. by Biff Cool (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:37AM
  • Re:Hmm... by wesmills (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:39AM
  • Re:You cant think what you want in the USA. by TM22721 (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:41AM
  • The trouble with Godwin's Law ... by Zach Frey (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:42AM
  • Re:America the Beautiful by Wah (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:43AM
  • Jon Katz is dead wrong by mathematician (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:43AM
  • Re:Hmm... (Score:4)

    by chromatic (9471) on Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:43AM (#1618496) Homepage

    Is it truly freedom, when you expect to be (at least) socially blasted for expressing controversial ideas?

    Sure! Or do you want Freedom From Consequences?

    If Singer has the free-speech rights to suggest euthanizing children under certain circumstances, I have the same right to call him a murderer or a monster or a hero or a saint.

    Funny, how expressing "unpopular" views makes one heroic, while expressing "popular" views makes one vulgar. If the simple act of expressing one's views is a Good Thing, does it really matter what those views are, Jon?

    Even if the majority of them are "Welcome to my homepage, it is under construction. Click Me to go back to Yahoo!"? Or does the message actually count for something, too?

    --
    QDMerge [rmci.net] 0.4 just released!
  • Re:The point by killbill (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:44AM
  • The point is that the child can NEVER have a say by Yogurt (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:44AM
  • Re:America is free by Hard_Code (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:44AM
  • Freedom of speech by mikec (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:45AM
  • Re:America is free by Hard_Code (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:48AM
  • Bad example by gilga_mesh (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:49AM
  • What is 'freedom' ? by Cally (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:49AM
  • Good Grief by Rabbins (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:50AM
  • Typical Katz BS by Mendax Veritas (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:50AM
  • Personal Choice and Responsibility is Freedom by MadProfessor (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:50AM
  • A Bogus Argument by John Murdoch (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:50AM
  • I agree by Psychofreak (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:50AM
  • Re:The thread ends with Hitler by Tuxedo Mask (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:50AM
  • Does not associating mean censorship? by briancarnell (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:51AM
  • There is no problem except irrational people by niven (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:54AM
  • by Mr. Slippery (47854) <tms AT infamous DOT net> on Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:55AM (#1618515) Homepage
    Would you be this offended if I were trying to stop you from running full speed off of a cliff, just because you didn't know it was there?
    Well, I would be highly annoyed if you kept screaming about how, according to some ancient book of Middle Eastern folk tales there was a cliff around here somewhere and I had better watch out, when in I was standing on solid ground, flat clear out to the horizon. Especially so if I'd been hearing about this damn fictional cliff all my life and you were telling me nothing I hadn't heard before.

    I don't like the idea that you live your life in a delusional state, holding to an inconsistent and illogical system of metaphysics. But I don't go around knocking on doors telling people "There is no god!" (or better yet, "You are god!") and handing out free brouchures detailing the contradictions and inconsistencies of the Bible and Christianity, or saying the Christians shouldn't be considered citizens because this is a nation not founded upon the Christian faith. Please do me the same courtesy.

  • The Mayor is doing his job... by Camel Pilot (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:55AM
  • Re:The trouble with Godwin's Law ... by Ray Dassen (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:55AM
  • Does Mass Murder + Choice = Freedom? by FPhlyer (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:55AM
  • Re:My impression of this... by Betcour (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:55AM
  • Katz Dropped the ball on oen thing i noticed right by Fyndlorn (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:56AM
  • Censorship is restructuring by philg (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:56AM
  • Re:No - we are, in fact, free... by jht (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:56AM
  • Re:My impression of this... by clifyt (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @05:59AM
  • Re:Hmm... by radish (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:01AM
  • USA Morally Superior? Since When? by Bartmoss (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:03AM
  • Re:My impression of this... by theJeff (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:04AM
  • Re:A double standard by AngryMob (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:04AM
  • The other Slashdot effect... by Aquitaine (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:04AM
  • Re:America the Beautiful by laktar (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:04AM
  • The burden falls on you and me. by Tau Zero (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:05AM
  • Re:The New Disenfranchised -- disturbing trend by Roblimo (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:05AM
  • US=Police State? by bored (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:05AM
  • Re:quite obvious that you do not know what you are by Znork (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:08AM
  • Re:Free speech is not free (gratis) by Kintanon (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:08AM
  • Jon, your writings are NOT clear! by renoX (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:09AM
  • Completely wrong (Score:5)

    by JordanH (75307) on Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:10AM (#1618541) Homepage Journal

    This is the worst piece on Free Speech and what it means to be a free people that I think I've ever read. Jon Katz should perhaps read something about the philosophical underpinnings of our rights and the responsibilities that these rights imply.

    Somehow, supporting the right of someone to express an opinion has become conflated with supporting someone in expressing an opinion.

    Pat Buchanan, Jesse Ventura, The Brooklyn Museum, none of these are examples of censorship. There are examples of people freely expressing desenting views and people exercising their right of association (in these cases disassociating themselves with, and withdrawing their active support for, opinions they find wrong or offensive).

    There are so many absurd examples in this article that I don't have time to go over them all. The worst might be that Pat Buchanan is having some First Amendment right taken away because the Republicans don't agree with his views and don't feel that he represents their principles. I suppose if Clinton suddenly started spouting Stalinist slogans and calling for a centralized economy that it would be an abridgement of his First Amendment Rights if the Democratic party were to oust him? Patently absurd.

    Pat Buchanan is exercising his right to associate with those who agree with him by going to the Reform Party. If the Reform Party makes Pat Buchanan their Presidential candidate would the rights of Donald Trump be trampled on because the Reform Party would be withdrawing their support from him? It would seem to follow from Katzian logic.

    It's a complete strawman that H.L. Mencken couldn't get a job in any newspaper today. I see a lot of columnists who make a practice of poking fun at religion, or expressing anti-religious views, and they just seem to get more popular. Molly Ivans and Ellen Goodman come immediately to mind.

    Confusing this issue is the case of Mr. Singer. Mr. Singer enjoys the academic freedom which we have bestowed upon people with tenure. I do believe that it would be wrong, although not an abridgement of a Constitutionally guaranteed right, to fire Mr. Singer for expressing his view.

    I think it would be right for Slashdot, for example, to stop supporting a certain Feature writer. Slashdot makes frequent editorial decisions. They don't publish every feature submitted, after all. Are they censoring those that they don't print? One of the editorial criteria is supposed to be that it's well thought out and coherent. This feature doesn't pass the test, if you ask me.

    I wonder if I'll now be ostracized for suggesting that Jon Katz should be "censored"?

  • Name a country that isn't by Yuri Mironoff (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:10AM
  • Re:My impression of this... by theJeff (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:13AM
  • Re:Where America sits.... by Rabbins (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:13AM
  • Vomit Art by Camel Pilot (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:15AM
  • Re:America the Beautiful by Wah (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:15AM
  • Not getting the point by shadrack (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:15AM
  • Re:Euthenasia + Choice = Freedom by gid-foo (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:15AM
  • Ideas and their consequences by dublin (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:16AM
  • Re:The Abortion Thing by Mark J Tilford (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:17AM
  • Re:A double standard by broohaha (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:17AM
  • by !IH (33751) on Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:17AM (#1618555)
    I'm Jewish, so I couldn't care less about it's offensive value or lack thereof, but it's pretty clear it's derogatory to Catholics

    I'm not being argmentive, but did you actually ask any catholics before forming this view? For instance, I'm Catholic, and I didn't find it offensive at all. In fact, I thought it was stupid to oppose the display on religious grounds. If you refused to display something because it might offend someone, you'd end up displaying nothing. I ask you, would the Mayor have taken the same action, if it would have been offensive to say, islamics, hindu, or any other religion? I think not.

    One of my favourite sayings is "Offence is taken, never given" Yes, many people say that "free speech doesn't mean we have to pay you to say it", and that is true - to an extent. But, would you regard it as a breach of free speech, if the government gave the use of halls rent free only to people who said nice things about them? If a public official refuses access to some "offensive" material, then he should by right, refuse access to it all. If a public official decides what it offensive or not, based on his private opinion, then that is censorship.

    As an aside, it could be worse. A few years back the Monty Python film, "Life of Brian" was banned in Ireland.

    In society, there are no absolute rights. All rights are relative to how they impact on each other member of society. You are "free" to do what you like, so long as your use of your "freedom" doesn't impact adversly other people's "freedom". Of course, there is always an impact, and society, as a whole, must decide where those lines are drawn.

    To finish, a quote from the film Dead Poets Society
    "Only in dreams are men truly free ; 'twas always thus, and always thus will be"


    --
  • Re:gimme a break .. by cancrman (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:19AM
  • Re:You cant think what you want in the USA. by Kintanon (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:19AM
  • Re:dissing discussion is NOT censorship by Panaflex (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:21AM
  • Censorship? by jnhtx (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:24AM
  • Re:I usually dislike Guliani, but... by mindlace23 (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:25AM
  • Re:Jon Katz, Anti-religious. by freehand (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:25AM
  • Re:I Agree... by gid-foo (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:28AM
  • Re:Hmmm... by radish (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:28AM
  • Re:Ventura by [iB] (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:30AM
  • Re:The burden falls on you and me. by Master_Ruthless (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:31AM
  • Re: Well said by SimonK (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:31AM
  • Helth insurance by delmoi (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:32AM
  • Love 'em or hate 'em by Zamis (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:34AM
  • A slightly different view by nitehorse (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:35AM
  • Re:gimme a break .. by theJeff (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:38AM
  • Re:Freedom by Panaflex (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:39AM
  • Timely by xmedar (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:40AM
  • Re:I Agree... by Rabbins (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:41AM
  • America the "Free" by theonetruekeebler (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:41AM
  • Re:Hmm... by zosima (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:42AM
  • Re:Hmm... by ethomas8 (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:42AM
  • Re:The thread ends with Hitler by linuxdevil (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:43AM
  • Re:Euthenasia + Choice = Freedom by ~shrike~ (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:44AM
  • Re:My impression of this... by freehand (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:45AM
  • Re:Out of subject ? Noy by visigoth (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:46AM
  • Re:Hmm... by Agamemnon (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:56AM
  • Re:Jon Katz, Anti-religious. by mmoore (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:57AM
  • Re:Dung Madonna by JordanH (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @06:58AM
  • Re:Defining when life begins by phil reed (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @07:00AM
  • number of chromosomes... by delmoi (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @07:01AM
  • What is Right and Wrong? by Pedant (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @07:01AM
  • Re:A double standard by noeld (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @07:02AM
  • Content Filtering and The Myth of Jon Katz by amlutias (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @07:03AM
  • Re:Out of subject ? Noy by phil reed (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @07:03AM
  • Killing is not always murder by TheCarp (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @07:04AM
  • Re:Where America sits.... by kiatoa (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @07:06AM
  • Re:My impression of this... by phil reed (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @07:07AM
  • JonKatz is being self contradicting. by CBlue (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @07:07AM
  • Painting of Virgin Mary by L0rdJedi (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @07:08AM
  • Clear language isn't censorship by Zach Frey (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @07:08AM
  • Re:Dung Madonna by Mr. Slippery (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @07:11AM
  • I totally support Guiliani here. by FallLine (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @07:11AM
  • nope by delmoi (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @07:12AM
  • stupid whining by jackmott (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @07:12AM
  • Brother to Demons, Brother to Gods by John Marks (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @07:13AM
  • Re:Ideas and their consequences by kavi_3 (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @07:13AM
  • Re:Slashdot censorship by Woodblock (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @07:13AM
  • double standards by Absynthe (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @07:14AM
  • perhaps you should take some remedial reading clas by delmoi (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @07:14AM
  • Old media and extremism by xmedar (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @07:18AM
  • Re:My impression of this... by freehand (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @07:19AM
  • Re:puleaze by TheCarp (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @07:19AM
  • why should you have that right? by delmoi (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @07:20AM
  • Re:Good Grief by Kintanon (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @07:24AM
  • Re:Dung Madonna by freehand (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @07:29AM
  • Re:Ideas and their consequences by dublin (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @07:32AM
  • Re:Censorship a government issue by TheCarp (Score:1) Wednesday October 13 1999, @07:33AM
  • Re:gimme a break .. by Kintanon (Score:2) Wednesday October 13 1999, @07:33AM
  • Strange definition of freedom<