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The Price of Being Different

Posted by JonKatz on Thu Apr 29, 1999 11:15 AM
from the the-rights-of-geeks dept.
Since Littleton, the cost of being different has gone up. Thousands of powerful e-mail messages have chronicled an educational system that glorifies the traditional and the normal, and brutalizes and alienates people who are or who are perceived as different under various names -- geeks, freaks, nerds, Goths and oddballs. One of the powerful messages coming out of Colorado is that so many of these "different" kids say they find school boring, oppressive, and utterly hostile, feelings echoed by educational survivors, many of whom are now parents. The hysteria over Littleton has only made things worse. It's time geeks defined and lobbied for some new rights. From their own messages, here are some places to start.

Joan McDonald has been a teacher in a New York State suburban public high school for nearly three decades. "While deeply saddened by the tragedy in Littleton," she wrote Tuesday, "I am appalled at the resulting backlash our students are forced to suffer" in the wake of the Littleton massacre.

The last thing we need in the 20th Century, she wrote, is another witchhunt.

But that's what we're getting. McDonald described what hundreds of other teachers, administrators and students have been reporting all week - an assault on speech, dress, behavior or values that the media, politicians and some educators deem uncomfortably different a/k/a geek, nerd, Goth, the usual labels.

In a Gallup poll this week, 82 per cent of Americans surveyed said the Internet was at least partly to blame for the Colorado killings. And schools across the country were banning trench coats, backpacks, black clothing, white make-up, Goth music, computer gaming shirts and symbols. They installed hotlines and "concern" boxes for anonymous "tips" about the behavior of non-mainstream students. Kids who talked openly about anger and alienation, or who confessed thoughts of revenge or fantasies of violence against people who'd been tormenting and excluding them, were hauled off to counselors.

Thus the students already at risk, already suffering, have become suspects, linked in various thoughtless ways to mass murder and - consequently - more alienated than before.

The number of incidents involving disaffected kids and schools is growing. In Canada, a 14-year-old boy shot two students at a high school in Alberta, killing one. In Brooklyn, five boys were charged with conspiracy after allegedly compiling a list of people to be killed in an attacked planned for their schools commencement on June 26. In Oak Lawn, Illinois, a 15-year-old boy was charged with assault and disorderly conduct after an ax, knives, a rifle, shotguns, and 150 rounds of ammunition were found in his home. In California, one student was arrested for threatening to burn down a middle school and another for threatening to blow up the high school. In the city of Chicago, a 15-year-old was caught with a .22 caliber gun taped to his ankle. Pennsylvania officials reported at least 52 bomb scares and other threats at schools in 22 counties. In Washington, more than 12,000 high school students were evacuated after a caller said hed placed a bomb in one of the citys 13 public schools. In Longwood, Florida, a 13-year-old student was arrested after allegedly threatening to place a bomb at the school and kill eighth graders who had tormented him. A note on a map hes supposedly drawn included the phrase "revenge will be sweet."

"I just came right now from the counselor's office," e-mailed DrgnD. "I scored a thousand. I had on a long coat, was wearing black and loudly told the jerk sitting next to me that I'd do my best to kill him if he ever called me a " trenchcoat freak" again. I am now officially on probation. He is not."

Among the many other consequences of the Columbine High School tragedy: the cost of being different just went up.

Take the Goths, one of the distinct sub-cultures singled out by the press and linked to the Littleton bloodbath. Gothwalker says he (Drew) wrote his principal after his school made plans to ban black clothing, trenchcoats and Marylyn Manson music.

Goths have been e-mailing me for months now.

One of the most individualistic, interesting, and yes, gloomy subcultures, Goth is a style - of music, dress, state of mind. In general, Goths wear black, hang out on the Net, experiment with androgynous styles, are sometimes drawn to piercings, tattoos and white makeup; and love Bauhaus, Sisters of Mercy and the Cure. Among their cherished authors are Sartre, Burroughs, Shelley and Poe. Fascinated with death (a taboo in the media and certainly in schools, along with sex and the open discussion of religion), Goths see it as a part of life.

In general, though, Goths do not hurt people. They brood; they emote; but the idea that they are murderous is a cultural libel.

One of the educational system's pervasive responses to Littleton was to lecture oddballs and geeks about the importance of not slaughtering others. One thing geeks and nerds hardly need is patronizing, offensive lesssons about the importance of not committing massacres. They're probably one of the least likely cultures in American life to commit homicide; their weapons of choice are electronic flames, not machine guns.

Of the thousands of e-mail messages I got this week (4,000 between Friday and Wednesday is my best guess), not one advocated violence or supported assault, murder or revenge.

Although many expressed sympathy for the killers as well as the victims in Littleton (unlike, say Time Magazine, which accompanied cover photos of the killers with the headline "The Monsters Next Door"), no one threatened violence, supported it, or approved of it.

But the stories of physical, verbal, emotional and administrative abusive that came pouring in were stunning, a scandal for an educational system that makes much noise about wholesomeness and safety, but has turned a blind eye for years to the persecution of individualistic and vulnerable students.

The Voices from the Hellmouth series on Slashdot this week demonstrated the power of interactivity and connectivity. Kids passed it around to one another, to parents, friends, teachers and guidance counselors.

"My seventeen year-old son handed me a print -out of your Littleton article," wrote Bagatti. "No one seems to think that peer abuse is real or damaging. I would like to see any adult report for work and be taunted, humiliated, harassed, and degraded every single day without going stark, raving mad. Human beings are not wired for abuse."

One of the clear messages from all of the e-mail was that it's time for geeks and nerds and the assorted "others" of the world to assert themselves, to begin defining and asserting their long overdue rights, perhaps with the help of the communicative possibilities of the Net. And to begin the work of re-structuring American schools - barely changed in generations despite the ongoing Information Revolution - and their frequently warped procedures, infrastructure and value systems.


At the very top of the agenda: Freedom from abuse, humiliation and cruelty. Geeks, nerds, and oddballs have the right to attend school in safety. Teachers and administrators have an obligation to make dignity for everybody - not just the popular and the conventional -- an urgent educational concern, in the same way they've taken on racism and other forms of bigotry.

Geeks who are harassed and humiliated should report the assaults, and perhaps using the possibilities of the Internet, take their complaints farther if they are ignored or further victimized. Online, they can receive support, advice, even counseling if necessary. Judging from many of my e-mail messages, it is.


Each generation has the right to determine its own culture. Culture isn't just symphony orchestras, movies about dead British royalty and hard-bound books. For some, culture is now also gaming, websites, chat and messaging systems, TV shows, music and movies.

No generation has the right to dictate to another what its culture ought to be, or to degrade its choices as stupid and offensive. Yet geek and nerd culture is continuously denounced as isolating, addictive and, now, even murderous.

Games like Tribe, Unreal, Quake, even The Legend of Zelda, and yes, Doom, can be astoundingly creative, challenging and imaginative. They are often demanding, played in communal and interactive ways. Some people may be uncomfortable with some of their imagery.

But youth culture has frequently been offensive to adults - that's often the point - and culture has always evolved. Adults seem to have no memories of their own early lives. Early rock and roll was likened to medieval plagues by the clueless journalists and nervous educators of the time. Now, next to some extreme forms of hip-hop, Chuck Berry seems as dangerous as Beethoven.

Adolescence is a surreal world: kids who don helmets and practice banging into one another for hours each week are deemed healthy and wholesome, even heroic. Geeks are branded strange and anti-social for building and participating in one of the world's truly revolutionary new cultures - the Internet and the World Wide Web.

Or for being isolated or lacking school spirit. Or for listening to industrial music or wearing odd clothes. But perhaps geek kids are isolated partly because schools don't provide them with any means of connecting.

Educators need to radically expand their notions of what culture is, and to re-consider the messages of disdain they continuously send some of their potentially most creative and students.

Inhabitants of a new world, with a new culture, geeks often find that the old symbols don't work for them - pep rallies, proms, assemblies, etc. In fact, scholars like Janet Murray of MIT ("Hamlet On The Holodeck") are beginning to explore the ways in which interactivity and representational writing and thinking are changing the very neural systems of the young.

Instead of banning Doom and Quake, schools should be forming Doom and Quake clubs, presided over by teachers who actually know something about the online world ( my e-mail indicates that there's one frustrated geek on the faculty in most schools). Any school with a football team ought to have a computer gaming, web design or programming team as well. Geeks ought to see their interests represented in educational settings, to not simply feel pushed to the margins of everyone else's. When these new interests and values are recognized and institutionalized, geek kids may have more status, and feel less like aliens in their own schools.

Schools need to provide choices. Educators love to talk empowerment, but few seem to grasp what it means. Geek kids are not, in general, docile and obedient; their subculture is argumentative and outspoken. Online, each person makes his or her own rules, goes where he or she wants to go. Increasingly, it's a difficult transition between free-wheeling cyberspace and the oppressive, rule-bound Old Fartism that dominates American education.

"School sucks," e-mailed Jane from Florida. "It's run like a police state, and it's boring and clueless."

Kids raised in interactive environments - with zappers, Nintendos, computers, sophisticated games - complain that they sometimes struggle in environments where adults stand for hours droning at them about passive things. This doesn't mean they are dumb, just different. Their digital world is much more vital, colorful and engaging that their educational one.

Geeks are used to choice, a landmark cultural and political issue for them. It's the responsibility of schools to create more challenging and interactive environments for its students - a benefit for all younger people who need to learn how to analyze, how to question, how to reach decisions, not just how to take notes and then check the right boxes on the midterm.


And: freedom. Why does the First Amendment end at the school door, when many kids, especially geeks, have spent much of their lives in the freest part of American culture - the Internet? Online, people can speak about anything: dump on God, talk about sex, flame pundits, express themselves politically and rebelliously. In school, no one can.

Geeks, perhaps more accustomed to free expression than their non-wired peers, increasingly and disturbingly refer to schools as "fascistic" environments in which they are censored and oppressed. All kids can't have absolute freedom all the time but many kids, especially older ones raised in the Digital Age, need more than they're getting. Without it, they will become increasingly alienated.

A gaming website like PlanetQuake gets more than 70,000 visitors a day; Planet Halflife gets about 30,000. GameSpy, which helps gamers connect to local games, draws between 60,000 and 80,000. Estimates of online gamers in the United States alone run as high as 15 to 20 million people. The half-baked notion that this activity sparks kids to grab lethal weapons and murder their peers sends a particular kind of message to the millions of kids gaming on and off-line -- that the people responsible for educating and protecting them (politicians, therapists, journalists, educators - have no idea what they are talking about, and are posturing in the most ignorant and self-serving ways. It's hard to imagine a more alienating lesson for the young than that.

Finally: access to popular culture and to the Internet isn't a privilege. It's a right. For many kids, the Net isn't alienation, but its alternative; it's their intellectual, social, cultural and political wellspring. They need it to learn, to feel safe and connected, and to function economically, socially and politically in the next century. Obviously, no rights come without responsibilities - and those should be spelled out both in schools and in families. But access to the Net and to other facets of one's culture ought not be a toy that parents and teachers are willing to dispense to "good" and "normal" boys and girls. For many kids, it's their lifeblood, and it shouldn't be restricted, withdrawn or used manipulatively except under the most serious circumstances.


It already seems clear from the stories coming out of Colorado that the two young killers killers were severely disturbed, victims of mental illness about which we know, to date, very little. The media roadshow - increasingly our leading transmitter of national hysterias -- that quickly engulfs stories like these demands answers, and has an endless supply of experts happy to go on TV and supply them.

But Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, along with the completely innocent people that they slaughtered, are also victims deserving of compassion. Their illnesses may or may not have been exacerbated by social cruelty and alienation, they may or may not have been affected by access to violent imagery and/or lethal weaponry. We may never be able to answer the why's their act provoked. Human minds, for all we're learning about them, sometimes remain mysterious, human acts inexplicable.


Reading all these messages from the Hellmouth this week, I've been overwhelmed by the outpouring of suffering generated by the experience of going to school, and by the brutal price people have paid and are paying for being different. Few people commit violence in schools, but way too many have fantasized about it.

These messages were, in different ways, all saying the same thing. A humane society truly concerned about its children would worry less about oddballs, computer games and clothing, and more about creating the kind of schools kids would never dream of blowing up.

Postscript-just came in:
My life has been turned upside down over the last few days, all because I wear a trenchcoat to school. The vice principal called the local sheriff because of rumors that he herd. On Friday I had my home searched by 3 deputies when they didn't find any thing I thought that it was the end of my humiliation but it was only the start. When I got to school Friday I had to spend a entire hour talking to the vice principal and a guidance councilor. Today when I got to school I was called back to his office and this time had a nice chat with a detective from the local police. This time the person from the police was asking me about rumors that when the sheriff searched my home that they found weapons and bombs. I now have a police investigation going on about rumors of the sheriff's investigation. In the mean time I have been speeding more time out of class then in it. When will this witch hunt end? When can I get back to my life? And when will the nation learn that it is pointless to composite for long periods of inaction with extreme over reaction.

Mootar in central IL

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  • Culture evolves? by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @10:33AM
  • Please ... stop with the "I'm a Victim" crap by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @10:43AM
  • *Yawn* by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @10:53AM
  • Burroughs? by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:04AM
  • When the backlash stop, we will move on. by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:08AM
  • Re:Look at their side of it by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:20AM
  • Re:I still didn't hate high school by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:21AM
  • Re:I still didn't hate high school by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:31AM
  • Re:I still didn't hate high school by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:41AM
  • Winner in high school, loser in life by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:55AM
  • Re:When the backlash stop, we will move on. by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @12:04PM
  • Teachers, school admin can't view kids' culture by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @01:23PM
  • Not tired of it... by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Thursday April 29 1999, @10:40AM
  • More bad press by BOredAtWork (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @04:28PM
  • Kids should learn never to be bored by palpatine (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @04:23PM
  • And what kind of excuse is it? by Alex Belits (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @08:18PM
  • Society, Schools & Homes by Jordy (Score:2) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:00AM
  • Is this the beginning of what i think it is? by sanityimp (Score:1) Friday April 30 1999, @08:06AM
  • by Skyshadow (508) on Thursday April 29 1999, @10:39AM (#1910319) Homepage
    I feel isolated and alone 'cause I *didn't* hate
    high school.

    Sure, I remember a lot of bad times; times when
    administrators and teachers picked on me and my
    friends for not falling into line, times when the
    jocks and rich kids got special treatment, times
    when I got made fun of...

    Overall, though, high school was fun. I remember
    laying out in the sun with my friends, water-gun
    fights (probably banned now, eh?), bowling,
    Denny's at all hours, parties, and just plain
    hanging out.

    I see all of this angst dripping around here, and
    I almost feel like I have to defend my experience
    because it didn't suck. And yeah, I was in the
    dweeb clique -- RPGs, first person shooter games,
    trench coats et. al....

    Someone back me up here....

    ----

  • Re:Wrong. Homeschooling is an excellent option. by knghtbrd (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @03:37PM
  • Just deal with it, and don't be paranoid by gavinhall (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:40AM
  • Re:Katz Komments by gavinhall (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @12:02PM
  • schools singling out "social outcasts" by gavinhall (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @02:30PM
  • Thank you slashdot by gavinhall (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @03:57PM
  • Forgive me if I disagree by gavinhall (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @08:34PM
  • Re:Look at their side of it by gavinhall (Score:1) Friday April 30 1999, @03:56AM
  • People who think for themselves are dangerous by gavinhall (Score:1) Friday April 30 1999, @05:28AM
  • The Dark Side (Score:4)

    by gavinhall (33) on Thursday April 29 1999, @10:40AM (#1910328)
    Posted by Alf Alpha:

    I'm not sure if I have the quote correct, but in one of the SW trailers Yoda says something like this: "Fear leads to suffering, suffering leads to hate and hates leads to the Dark Side."

    One of the greatest tradgedies that has become apparent in these recent posts is how many people have given into the Dark Side. The decision whether to let hate dominate our own lives is our own choice, whether we are the oppresors or the ones being oppressed.

    And so with this latest backlash the cycles continues. However, the choice of response if ours, we can choose to forgive or to hate in return.

    May the Force be with you, always.
  • The Band-Aid Man visits again by pingouin (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @10:46AM
  • It's important, but... by pingouin (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:31AM
  • by pingouin (783) on Thursday April 29 1999, @03:17PM (#1910331) Homepage
    Sure, lots of people other than nerds are abused. Far worse things are happening out there. But that isn't on topic. If you don't think nerds are more important than the herded masses, I have to wonder why you're using our forum.

    I'm user #783, IIRC. I'm not some interloper here; I'd like to think it's my forum too -- /. is my browsers' start page. I'm as on-topic as anyone else. I love Ask Slashdot, the GPL, RMS, tarballs, OO, DSP, Java, a certain anti-trust case, and any number of "relevant" topics (turnoffs: sunlight, aspartame, bad hair days, and mean people). I have about seven toolkits installed on my box, and I'm wrestling with all of them in search of The Right One. Unfortunately, what we have here this week is a mania far removed from hardware, software, and licenses.

    You hit the nail on the head, surely by accident: "Far worse things are happening out there". That's why I'm on-topic. Geeks, being part of society, are often complicit (directly or, more often, indirectly) in those "far worse things"; that shows me that whatever they may have suffered in high school failed to register permanently on their brains -- it shows me that their radius of compassion is woefully small. (Yes, Eric, if you're reading this, you are one of many exceptions :)

    If you can't make the leap from feeling sorry for yourself (or a fellow "oppressed" geek) to feeling anger and remorse over a political prisoner or a sweatshop laborer's plight, then Katz's whole exercise is just shallow pimping. If you can't make the leap from jocks abusing geeks to being angry about the plight of the political footballs in the ghettos that your commute and your subdivision so deftly avoid, then Katz's shallow pimping is as obscene as the abuse of geek students.

    Do you get it now? If not, then please explain -- in 3000 words or more -- why you think "nerds are more important than the herded masses". Can any of you explain? It is the impression I get, just as I get the impression from Katz's peers in Big Media that the deaths of affluent suburban kids are more important than, say, deaths from malnutrition occurring in the very same country.

    Let me close with a quote from my favorite nerd, a bookish lawyer (and one-time journalist, IIRC), who never quite learned how to fight his way out of a paper bag, though he was often provoked.

    Poverty is the worst form of violence.
    We will learn far more about real solutions from reading the writings of that nerd (his name was Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi) than we will from reading Katz and the often-hysterical "Geek Power Now!" threads from our peers here.

    --

  • Re:Problems Are Fundamental to Our Society by Xamot (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @03:52PM
  • Re:Problems Are Fundamental to Our Society by Xamot (Score:1) Friday April 30 1999, @12:10PM
  • Simple solution: get rid of extramural athletics by Phaid (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @01:35PM
  • Have they contacted lawyers? by adamsc (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @02:13PM
  • Re:Look at their side of it by Groucho (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @12:19PM
  • Re:Look at their side of it by Groucho (Score:1) Friday April 30 1999, @12:21AM
  • by Groucho (1038) on Thursday April 29 1999, @10:49AM (#1910339)
    Yes, harassing people for wearing trenchcoats seems prima facie idiotic. At least it did yesterday.

    Last night I was walking along the street around midnight and I saw two young boys coming towards me. One was wearing a long black coat. I have to admit this thought crossed my mind: what if he's planning a copycat killing?

    And hey, I'm a freaky geek who was picked on in high school. Shouldn't I be sympathetic?

    The fact is, these cops and principals, who are so out of touch that they probably never noticed trenchcoats before, are suddenly struck dumb with fear at the sight of that particular piece of apparel. It's not a conspiracy to suppress individuality, it's just the honest terror of the clueless whitebread types.

    Will there be copycat killings, though? It seems there was one yesterday in Canada, with a trenchcoat-wearing gunman wounding one student and killing another.

    Try to understand that people are very afraid right now. Try to leave your trenchcoat, your Marilyn Manson t-shirts and your skull earrings at home for a few weeks. When the urge comes upon you to utter threats in a rage or say that you understand how the gunmen felt, bite your tongue and post about it later. If parents or teachers question your right to use the Internet, quietly and calmly argue that you use it for research, that you like to read the headline news, and that you need it to download antivirus updates (point to Melissa and CIH).

    This too shall pass.

    Groucho
  • Re:Katz Komments by Kyril (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @01:17PM
  • Re:At last, a voice of reason. by Piers Cawley (Score:1) Friday April 30 1999, @03:28AM
  • What is Evolution anyway? by Piers Cawley (Score:1) Friday April 30 1999, @03:35AM
  • They certainly are. by Static (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @06:48PM
  • Re:Talk is good, but let's DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! by Cobalt (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @05:58PM
  • Not all bad by jafac (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:43AM
  • Re:We need state legislation outlawing peer abuse by jafac (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @12:35PM
  • Re:The Dark Side by jafac (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @01:03PM
  • Re:What happens when these people "grow up?" by jafac (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @01:06PM
  • Re:Please ... stop with the "I'm a Victim" crap by jafac (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @01:12PM
  • Re:Stop and think. by jafac (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @01:39PM
  • Re:Jeremy by jafac (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @03:15PM
  • Re:Please ... stop with the "I'm a Victim" crap by jafac (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @04:05PM
  • Re:Will the choir become chorus? by jafac (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @04:36PM
  • Re:A comment by jafac (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @04:47PM
  • Re:Just deal with it, and don't be paranoid by jafac (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @05:05PM
  • Re:Jeremy by jafac (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @05:09PM
  • Re:School gaming clubs. by jafac (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @05:35PM
  • Re:Thank you slashdot by jafac (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @05:37PM
  • Re:My story (condensed) by jafac (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @05:47PM
  • Re:Culture evolves? by Frater 219 (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @12:05PM
  • Protect Our Geeks! (Score:3)

    by Frater 219 (1455) on Thursday April 29 1999, @11:40AM (#1910361) Journal
    It seems to me that one of the things that the Net community is good at is spontaneously organizing to point out harmful bullshit. For instance, consider the exposure of the original Pentium division bug -- leaked all over USENET while Intel was still denying its existence. If it hadn't been for USENET, it probably never would have gotten any press: bullshit ("There is no bug, and besides, it's not a very big one") would have won. More recently, the Mindcraft scam, as with countless other Microsoft crimes, might not have been exposed if it weren't for the Net in general, and Slashdot (and similar forums) in particular.

    So ... can we mobilize this ability in defense of our geek (and goth, and punk) brethren (and sistren) in America's high schools? I think we can. All we need to do is mobilize something like the Slashdot Effect -- and target it on offending schools.

    More than a few high schools now have their own Web pages. Lots of high school teachers and administrators have their own email addresses. (They're probably all on AOL, but that's no matter.) And every high school principal or headmaster, I'm sure, has a telephone.

    So perhaps what we need is for geeks, goths, and other HS outsiders to tell their stories of harassment and abuse -- but to tell them with the names and email addresses of the offending administrators. When Mr. Jones says that "it's just part of growing up" to be beaten by classmates, or Ms. Brown suspends a student for wearing black, or Dr. Smith encourages students to mock and harass those who don't attend pep rallies -- Mr. Jones, Ms. Brown, and Dr. Smith should get mailboxes full of polite condemnation from educated, intelligent, and successful geeks.

    It's just an idea ... but it just might help. Sites like High School Underground [hsunderground.com], and forums like these on Slashdot, are a start -- but in order to actually change the world, we need to meet the offenders on their own ground, and get them the message that their behavior is intolerable.
  • Re:Violent revenge fantasies by Chris Parrinello (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @03:35PM
  • Re:Look at their side of it by Nethead (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:08PM
  • Re:We need state legislation outlawing peer abuse by Iffy Bonzoolie (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @04:32PM
  • Re:We need state legislation outlawing peer abuse by Iffy Bonzoolie (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @04:57PM
  • Re:Remember, kids... by Iffy Bonzoolie (Score:2) Thursday April 29 1999, @10:52AM
  • Re:Remember, kids... by Iffy Bonzoolie (Score:2) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:02AM
  • Nerds, Geeks and Bugbears, oh my! by jd (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:30AM
  • Attention spans are good things... by Daniel (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @01:55PM
  • Re:Just deal with it, and don't be paranoid by Daniel (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @02:16PM
  • Re:Katz Komments by Mars Saxman (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @03:37PM
  • Re:Look at their side of it by shdragon (Score:1) Friday April 30 1999, @12:11AM
  • I doubt you even read it by Sasafras (Score:2) Thursday April 29 1999, @10:38AM
  • Re:"The Wall" is great background music for this by Rene S. Hollan (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @02:30PM
  • Re:Join the Black Ribbon Campaign by Rene S. Hollan (Score:1) Friday April 30 1999, @11:31AM
  • I DON'T think that "enough is enough" on /. by Rene S. Hollan (Score:2) Thursday April 29 1999, @01:30PM
  • A Different POV on Schools by MrgnPhnx (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @01:58PM
  • Re:Over the Edge by Evangelion (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:24AM
  • Re:Over the Edge by Evangelion (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:17PM
  • Re:1 word. AMERICA by Millennium (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @07:06PM
  • A compromise... by Millennium (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @07:19PM
  • Get your definition of evolution straight. by Millennium (Score:2) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:23AM
  • School gaming clubs. by suprax (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @03:24PM
  • by Will Sargent (2751) on Thursday April 29 1999, @10:30AM (#1910384) Homepage
    Reading these missives makes me hurt so badly I have trouble reading through them. It really amazes me that people can do that to children, and then keep doing it even when the consequences of abuse are so, so clear.

    I understand the problem. They don't know. They have no idea there is a problem; their behaviour is exactly what causes kids to snap and even kill.

    Ironically, the very thing which they think might be responsible could actually help them. It's a simple solution -- it's worked for Amnesty International for decades. E-mail the schools. Don't let them act without letting them know you know what they're doing, and you don't approve. Tell them about the Hellmouth. Tell them why what they're doing is wrong.

    I would love to see the Geek community united to the point where it is a force for social change as well as just the technical. This seems like an excellent place to start.

    Will.
  • Goths are (somewhat) like jocks by acb (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:40AM
  • The Kevlar Song (fwd) by acb (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @12:00PM
  • One question, where is your soapbox. by homebrewer (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @02:15PM
  • Re: AMERICA, MASS Human Rights Abuser by homebrewer (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @02:31PM
  • by Nathaniel (2984) on Thursday April 29 1999, @12:23PM (#1910389) Homepage
    Last night I was walking along the street around midnight and I saw two young boys coming towards me. One was wearing a long black coat. I have to admit this thought crossed my mind: what if he's planning a copycat killing?

    Wimp. Instead of assuming they were friendly and saying 'Hello.' you reacted out of fear.

    If we all continue to react fearfully instead of treating each other in a civil manner, we will continue to isolate each other.

    I've been wearing a black trenchcoat for months, and I will continue to do so. I believe it would be tacky for someone to rush out and buy a trenchcoat in response to Littleton, but I also believe that it would be tacky to react by discarding a trenchcoat I already wear.

    My point here is that I will continue to wear my trenchcoat because I had already decided it is what I wanted to wear. I am refusing to become more normal simply so that other people can live in a more comfortable world while clinging to labels and reacting instead of thinking.

    We all need to learn to judge people as individuals or not at all. If you don't know enough about someone to make an informed, personal judgement about them you should simply treat them in a civil manner and assume that they are a decent person. You will be right more often than not.

  • Re:Who had good teachers? by Gosub (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @02:54PM
  • Re: AMERICA, MASS Human Rights Abuser by maynard (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @01:55PM
  • Sure didn't - thanx! by SpiceWare (Score:1) Friday April 30 1999, @10:29AM
  • are you sure???? by SpiceWare (Score:1) Friday April 30 1999, @03:36PM
  • Wow - political cartoonists that have a clue! by SpiceWare (Score:2) Thursday April 29 1999, @12:57PM
  • by Dr. Evil (3501) on Thursday April 29 1999, @10:50AM (#1910396)

    The mainstream media is likely to distort any story to be as controversial and poigiant as possible while squeezing it into 22 minutes of dramatic 911 calls, crying kids and choice quotes from dime-store sociologists.

    How about snail-mailing every principal, vice principal and guidance councellor in North America?

    Perhaps a standardized letter?

    Some of them did some good things, like promoting geeky clubs in schools and not forcing people to eat in their cafeterias. Others it seems like to degrade students as much as possible.

    Or perhaps at the very least, we could create a website where the outpouring of email could have identifying markings stripped off, and focus on what seems to be the problem... parents, teachers, police officers and principals who are critical or neglegant --- along with another area where success stories could be posted. Things which saved people from bitter isolation and torment.

    There has to be a better way to handle this than to have bullies and jerks all over the country laugh at heart-felt testamonies from tortured schoolkids on NBC, while sociologists tell these kids to talk to their parents, teachers or guidance councellors.

  • The Education side of it. by Orion (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @01:01PM
  • Re:Look at their side of it by Orion (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @01:08PM
  • You Can't Say You Can't Play by Tsarnon (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:15AM
  • I've gotten so strange... by ferret (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @12:20PM
  • by jht (5006) on Thursday April 29 1999, @11:13AM (#1910401) Homepage Journal
    I disagree. The way for to fix things is to become the mangers, the leaders, the bosses. Play the game as much as you have to. Get ahead - we're smarter, more capable, more creative, and more understanding than the majority. Get to the top, and then do things your way.

    I was miserable in high school, and I drifted through (eventually dropping out) college, but once I was working for a living I realized the best way to have a good boss and to help other people was to be the boss myself. Nowadays I run a department of techs, and I have worked my butt off to give them a better environment and more dignity than they had before. I also do everything I can IRL for the same purpose.

    We shouldn't complain about it - we should take over. There's no reason we can't play the game too, and better than they do. The majority doesn't know we have our own rules and our own culture, and they don't care. We, on the other hand, know their game, understand their rules, and lord knows we're smart enough to dominate them on the field of play... So why don't we?

  • This is interesting ... by cthonious (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @08:41PM
  • Re:Please ... stop with the "I'm a Victim" crap by David Ishee (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @10:49PM
  • Your world turned upside-down by David Ishee (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @10:55PM
  • Gasp! Are you crazy? by David Ishee (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:09PM
  • Rights, freedoms, and general cluelessness by David Ishee (Score:2) Thursday April 29 1999, @10:37PM
  • We are not them. by lungofish (Score:2) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:08AM
  • Well put! by dentar (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @02:46PM
  • Re:Write the schools--> Deaf and blind? by Qeyser (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:22AM
  • At least it gets better in college by Soong (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @10:53AM
  • Re:Culture evolves? by Davidicus (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:53AM
  • Witch hunting by Signal 11 (Score:2) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:00AM
  • Us vs. them by MTDilbert (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:40AM
  • by Demona (7994) on Thursday April 29 1999, @10:58AM (#1910415) Homepage
    Yes, culture has evolved in the sense that violence is not increasing; rather, our tolerance for violence as an acceptable means of social interaction is decreasing.

    The responsibility of "who shall protect the children" rests where it always has -- with the legal guardians of the child. Every child develops the capacity to make moral judgments at a different pace. Being a parent should mean helping your child become an adult, not become a clone of yourself, and certainly not to remain a child. I see increasing numbers of people every day my age (30ish) and older who can only, as William Gibson put it in Idoru, only express their twin desires of murderous rage and infantile desire by pressing the buttons on a television remote and voting in presidential elections. Just a symptom of all the ways we teach children that Thinking Is Bad.

    It does children no service to be anything less than scrupulously honest. While four-year olds may not need to know how to use condoms, feeding them BS that says, for instance, all substances are equally morally and physically Bad, only encourages harmful patterns of abuse, not responsible use or voluntary abstention.

    Who decides what is education, and what is brainwashing and indoctrination? Only someone who believes that one size truly fits all, and has the gall to believe that they have the right to force the rest of the world into line, would dare. Try to please everyone, and you end up pleasing noone.

    And to tie this back to the beginning: The ancient Greek children who witnessed incredible violence and cruelty on a daily basis did not all grow up to become despots and tyrants. Of course, most Americans seem concerned only with themselves or the current fads-or-politically-approved-oppressed-classes.

    When Bill Clinton deplores the "culture of violence" while sending troops to shoot and bomb people in Kosovo who aren't even in his legal or political jurisdiction; when those who supposedly protect and serve us gas and burn men, women and children without a properly served warrant or any evidence of wrong doing, shoot an unarmed woman holding an infant and then taunt and mock her family through megaphones for days while their bodies rot in the sun; when a Japanese newspaper deplores "the warped strains of 'an advanced society'" when their leaders have only recently started acknowledging the Rape of Nanking and the so-called "noble class" systematically disarmed the poor for centuries by making it illegal to own swords and other weapons (thus prompting the development of many of the martial arts)....

    Then, folks, there is some serious hypocrisy and denial going on.

  • On getting organized... by Late (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @12:55PM
  • Re:Hold on a sec - those guys were Nazis! by Lemmy Caution (Score:1) Friday April 30 1999, @01:27PM
  • Re:Culture evolves? by eponymous cohort (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @10:55AM
  • A web campain!! by Slef (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @04:09PM
  • standards by Dictator For Life (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @12:31PM
  • Internet access and freedom of assembly by Dictator For Life (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @01:33PM
  • Re:Katz Komments by Dictator For Life (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @09:02PM
  • Re:Ethics and Thought by Dictator For Life (Score:1) Friday April 30 1999, @11:00PM
  • Katz Komments by Dictator For Life (Score:2) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:37AM
  • Ethics and Thought by Dictator For Life (Score:2) Thursday April 29 1999, @12:46PM
  • Self-Criticism :-) by Dictator For Life (Score:2) Thursday April 29 1999, @01:45PM
  • Re:Self-Criticism et al. by Dictator For Life (Score:2) Thursday April 29 1999, @08:39PM
  • Never assume what you hear is correct! by Accumulator (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @03:21PM
  • Excellent Situation of my schooling... by GraZZ (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @07:16PM
  • A comment by DavidTC (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @01:39PM
  • Odd by DavidTC (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @01:49PM
  • Join the Black Ribbon Campaign by Athena (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @08:21PM
  • Back in the filter with you... by K. (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:20AM
  • proofreading? by woodforc (Score:1) Friday April 30 1999, @09:10AM
  • Re:AMERICA, land of the free???? by rnturn (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:24AM
  • I got lucky. by HappyHead (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @10:54AM
  • Re:The Dark Side by HappyHead (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @10:57AM
  • Re:Look at their side of it by FreeUser (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @12:58PM
  • Fwd this to letters@time.com by Norman Lorrain (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @01:56PM
  • Re:I am sorry, you are wrong. by deathcubek (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:09AM
  • A call for action by deathcubek (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @08:19PM
  • To The Oppressed Peoples of High School by deathcubek (Score:2) Thursday April 29 1999, @10:36AM
  • The Monsters Next Door by Augusto (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @12:20PM
  • Good points by Augusto (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @02:52PM
  • Most current US public schools ... by Augusto (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @03:06PM
  • Re:It's run like a police state, and it's boring . by Augusto (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @04:56PM
  • Glad you made it by Augusto (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @06:22PM
  • It's run like a police state, and it's boring ... by Augusto (Score:2) Thursday April 29 1999, @01:03PM
  • Compliment and Call by Zonk (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @01:04PM
  • Thanks for being part of the problem. by Lx (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @08:09PM
  • Yeah, Burroughs. by Venomous Louse (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @12:20PM
  • The world turned upside-down. by Venomous Louse (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @12:48PM
  • Say what? by Venomous Louse (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @02:19PM
  • One example of a "Cause" by Venomous Louse (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @03:00PM
  • Debate my post, not somebody else's. by Venomous Louse (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @06:32PM
  • Kinda true by Venomous Louse (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @07:50PM
  • *My* worldview?! by Venomous Louse (Score:1) Friday April 30 1999, @07:51AM
  • Yeah by Venomous Louse (Score:1) Friday April 30 1999, @10:48AM
  • Stop and think. by Venomous Louse (Score:2) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:07AM
  • Last Words of The Mentor..."A Hacker's Manifesto" by ShinGouki (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @04:40PM
  • Re:Nietzsche had a great quote about youth... by ShinGouki (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @08:02PM
  • Re:Nietzsche had a great quote about youth... by ShinGouki (Score:2) Thursday April 29 1999, @04:58PM
  • Violent revenge fantasies by Bearpaw (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @10:56AM
  • Re:The Dark Side by Bearpaw (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:01AM
  • Re:Society, Schools & Homes by RocketRay (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:25AM
  • Will the choir become chorus? by Blue Lang (Score:2) Thursday April 29 1999, @10:58AM
  • Re:Why won't this thread die? by Spectra72 (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @12:56PM
  • Stop the War by meme (Score:1) Sunday May 02 1999, @04:10AM
  • Re:What happens when these people "grow up?" by Stardate (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @10:55AM
  • Re:What happens when these people "grow up?" by Stardate (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @03:19PM
  • In a nutshell: Those unlike you have rights, too by Weasel Boy (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @10:33AM
  • Bomb Threats by MrCawfee (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @06:02PM
  • "Individualistic Goths" is an oxymoron. by Zico (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:06AM
  • Re:We need state legislation outlawing peer abuse by Grey (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @10:46AM
  • Re:Katz and Slashdot doing the right thing by sjmadsen (Score:2) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:51AM
  • BillGates == GeekBully by OG (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @02:26PM
  • Who had good teachers? by OG (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @02:44PM
  • the public is noticing us... by LadyNymphaea (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @10:54AM
  • Re:Culture evolves? - more info by Captain Teflon (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @06:11PM
  • Write your senators!!! by chuckw (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @02:16PM
  • What happens when these people "grow up?" by Amoeba Protozoa (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @10:43AM
  • I am sorry, you are wrong. by Amoeba Protozoa (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @10:51AM
  • Re:I still didn't hate high school by Amoeba Protozoa (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @10:57AM
  • Re:Yeah, that makes sense. by Amoeba Protozoa (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:11AM
  • Re:I am sorry, you are wrong. by Amoeba Protozoa (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:21AM
  • Re:Its called "selling out." by Amoeba Protozoa (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:33AM
  • Re:What happens when these people "grow up?" by Skevin (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @06:21PM
  • Media Feeds the Fire by Festivious (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @10:58AM
  • Re:Have they contacted lawyers? by Tenareth (Score:1) Friday April 30 1999, @07:44AM
  • Re:Where to get HELP by Tenareth (Score:1) Friday April 30 1999, @07:47AM
  • Re:Role of parents and role models? by Anonymous Shepherd (Score:2) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:14AM
  • by Anonymous Shepherd (17338) on Thursday April 29 1999, @11:08AM (#1910495) Homepage
    It's really tough having to live through all the persecution, and I can really relate and I feel sympathy for every one else who had to suffer the same. It's easy to blame the schools, because they turned their backs, looked the other way, were understaffed, and were too jaded to care. It's not that they didn't care, actually, but that there were too many issues, too many problems, and no real solutions for them to do anything but give up.

    I don't want to justify their behavior in creating this kind of situation, but I would like to explain some of the their reasoning in all this.

    At least in my schools, there were overcrowded classrooms, aged and retiring teachers who just didn't have the energy or youth to deal with us, and and not enough funds to do anything they would have liked. In order to handle and deal with a class, conformity was stressed over performance, individuality, or creativeness. How could a teacher handle 20 wildly independent, unique, creative, inquisitive students? Whether intentional or not, they managed to convey to us the idea of conforming, of not rocking the boat. They were happy and excited whenever one of us showed initiative or intelligence, but they did not actively try to push us towards that goal.

    Kids picked up really quick; they became the enforcers of the norm, and if you were different of race, of behavior, of attitude, of anything, they'd target you for this.

    This was a school system which actively recruited for GATE students, but didn't have the resources to actually do anything with/for us once we were identified. They actually used us to gain more funding for stuff such as books, repairs, maintanence, etc. They didn't have the training or resources to manage a handful of gifted students, so we were left to our own devices, and then resented for it by all the other children.

    This goes on all the way up to high school, in which I finally figured out how to look cool, how to act cool, how to be cool. I also happened to gain a foot in height and 40 pounds of bulk, so I guess people didn't figure I was such an easy target either.

    Something does need to be done to change the system. We live in a society that does reward innovative unique and creative people, but the system we use to train and manage the kids tries to destroy and contain these things because they cause too much trouble.

    I was talking to my dad about this, and he mentioned that even private schools have this fascist need to maintain conformity, except that they raise the bar and expectations much higher than in our public school. Are there any real solutions available?

    AS
  • ..no it isn't by akintayo (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:51PM
  • Re:Look at their side of it by kmactane (Score:2) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:43AM
  • Re:Katz and Slashdot doing the right thing by evilpenguin (Score:2) Thursday April 29 1999, @12:42PM
  • by evilpenguin (18720) on Thursday April 29 1999, @10:52AM (#1910499)
    I'm 31 years old. I was a misfit in school; so much so that I never joined a distinct subculture. I just wore clothes that weren't trendy, listened to music that wasn't trendy, thought what I wanted and said what I thought. I was isolated, alienated, and generally unimpressed with my peers. My overwhelming feeling was one of pain. Pain at the casual, random cruelty that people inflicted on one another. I'm not religious at all, but I have a favorite verse of the Bible. It is the shortest. "Jesus wept." Do you know what it is like for an overweight male computer geek who cries at the pain of others?

    Now I am 31. I'm very mainstream. I've reached equilibrium between my continuing concern for my fellow living things and my relative powerlessness. I'm actually happy. All of this personal revelation is just to lay thr groundwork for what I have to say.


    Even now I am forgetting (as I think most adults have forgotten) how powerful adolescent emotions are. I wept, I raged, I suffered. In retrospect, it was a lot of wasted energy, but at the same time I miss the passion I had then.


    When I heard the news of Littleton, I heard the demonization of the children who perpetrated this crime. Adults do this so we don't have to own up to our own painful responsibility for this event and others like it. Adolescents need the involvement of caring adults in their lives, not the intrusion of fearful or mistrustful adults. These were not monsters, they were CHILDREN. What they did was monsterous, but there were not adult enough to be monsters. They were not "gunmen" as I hear in the press all the time. If anything, they were "gunboys." Until you have lived through some adult pain (like the death of a parent, etc.) until you know the emptiness of unconsolable loss you don't REALLY know what death means. To these "gunboys" death became a game. Not because they played Doom, but because they hadn't learned through loss the value that life has. They held life cheaply.


    I do actually think violent games and movies are a problem, but I do not think they are to blame. I think each of us, parent and child, game maker and movie producer, employer and worker (the economically induced absence of parents plays a part I do not hear enough about), jock and nerd, each of us needs to take a look at how we treat ourselves and one another. We need to ask ourselves if our lives should be this way. The world is not immutably a place of cruelty. We have the power to make this world what we want it to be. We just have to decide within us what has value. Money and power, or compassion and love. It is our choice. It is my choice. It is your choice. Choose.
  • Re:Its called "selling out." by FatSean (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:46AM
  • Re: AMERICA, MASS Human Rights Abuser by BenZoate (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @07:19PM
  • by BenZoate (19607) <brsheltonNO@SPAMfadedsky.com> on Thursday April 29 1999, @11:00AM (#1910502)
    I have to agree with your statement that the US is has become everything that it has fought against this century, the US was jsut as bad as the Nazis and with their asian relocation camps, and now some of the brightest thinkers and the people who have the most potential to do well in the future arre now being persicuted (sp?). sounds very similar to Nazi Germany. Now the police and other people who "enforce" the laws don't need probable cause to search anymore? So because I think, and I don't fit into the social norms, the "man" can now obtain a warrent and bust into my home and do what they please? I can't believe what is going on these days.

    Just the other day in Lincoln , NE a guy i know, who is a Goth, walks into my former High School and a teacher says, "It's because of people like that things like this happen." the teacher was of course refering to the Colorado events. What kind of society do we live in that this is tolerated? The kids mother called a lawyer and it looks like something is going to happen in the courts, but it will not be enough. I am going back to my high school to talk with the Administration, but I know it will be futile, they just cater to the jocks and the popular kids. But I feel obligated to try. This is something that we all should do, let the schools know what we think, they don't use the 'net, they know it's nothing but porn and sites that promote viloent behavior. And having never used the 'net themselves they are completely justified in their beliefs.

    no.

    High school was no picnic for me, but I found out the other night, while getting drunk with some people from high school, that I was aclutally looked up to, people liked me, and they respected my views. That blew my mind. The guy said it was because I was dtudent council president, and people thought that made me good people. When do I find out though? two years after I graduate. WTF? So to all you people still in the schools, life does get better, just hold on, we are with you.
    to the rest of us do something about the current issues, visit schools, there will be at least one group who will listen to you, start a community group, but get out and make a difference.

    just my thoughts. I am also going to move to Canada, the US is not the place I thought it was.
  • Re:In a nutshell: Those unlike you have rights, to by magic (Score:2) Thursday April 29 1999, @10:56AM
  • Re:These people are on drugs by grizzly14621 (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @01:17PM
  • Someone has to... by Mike A. (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @02:50PM
  • Re:ummm... by jaqbot (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @12:01PM
  • EXACTLY! by Corbett J. Klempay (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @12:57PM
  • Re:At last, a voice of reason. by Corbett J. Klempay (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @01:02PM
  • Programming Club by Saint Nobody (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @01:53PM
  • Re:Retarded Idea by JosefK (Score:1) Friday April 30 1999, @11:52AM
  • Where to get HELP by muadib (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @02:32PM
  • by chris.dag (22141) on Thursday April 29 1999, @10:31AM (#1910521) Homepage
    We need to get this stuff into the mainstream media instead of preaching to the converted on this and other sites. It looks like this may start to happen.

    Katz mentioned previously that reporters were trawling this site looking for people and stories. A nice followup article would be to analyze any resulting press to see how well they grasped the issues. Might let us know how well we do at communicating our views 'out there'.
  • by Flow (22148) on Thursday April 29 1999, @10:50AM (#1910522) Homepage
    I think that we have determined that many of us have gone through similar torment and hurtful teasing that the kids in Littleton went through.

    What I personally fear more than that the torment of "geeks" will continue is schools and society will make it nearly impossibel to interact with others without fear of words being taken as harassment or torment.

    Most of us who had to suffer at the hands of bullies, and the "popular" crowd did not go and blow 12, or even 1 person away. We learned to deal with. I think the most succesful of us who dealt with it had good support from our families.

    With the ever declining strength of the family unit, and lack of almost anyone in the US taking responsibility for their own actions, kids have no place to turn for support and positive reinforcement.

    I think these are the issues that need to be addressed, not the teasing that goes on, has gone and on, and probably will go on for years to come. Freedom of expression has a price, and I'd rather pay that price, and help my children pay that price, than see those freedom's restricted.

  • Re:Ethics and Thought by Moofie (Score:1) Friday April 30 1999, @05:17PM
  • Re:Katz Komments by Moofie (Score:2) Thursday April 29 1999, @12:14PM
  • Re:Problems Are Fundamental to Our Society by Rombuu (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @12:11PM
  • Re:Problems Are Fundamental to Our Society by Rombuu (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @12:54PM
  • Sample Letter. by gothwalk (Score:1) Friday April 30 1999, @02:57AM
  • Re:These people are on drugs by paulio (Score:1) Friday April 30 1999, @03:08PM
  • Re:Pink Floyd said it best: "No more turning away. by mrex (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @03:04PM
  • high school sucked by z@ph0d (Score:2) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:10AM
  • by Utoxin (26011) <utoxin@gmail.com> on Thursday April 29 1999, @10:29AM (#1910532) Homepage Journal
    I'm one of the people who fit the nerd/geek/wierdo category. This article is very thoughtful, and extremely well worded. I can say as a person who spent every year of school until my junior year of highschool being tormented, that it is worse than a lot of people can imagine. What saved me?

    One day, I stopped myself from snapping back at somone, and thought about it for a second. What exactly did 'nerd' mean to me? It meant someone who did well in school, who liked learning, who loved science, computers, and being their own person. At that moment, it stopped bothering me, and within a month of that, they stopped bothering me. They started to respect me, because I respected myself, and realized that I could be proud of myself.

    So, to all you nerds out there, I have a few words of encouragement. Stand up for yourselves. Stand tall, be proud. We are the people who really make society run.
    --
    Matthew Walker
    My DNA is Y2K compliant
  • Re:Culture evolves? by Smallest (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:16AM
  • To those of you telling JonKatz to shut up... by jalper (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:13AM
  • You're somewhat correct by snopes (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:05AM
  • Indeed, Burroughs by DrFardook (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @12:52PM
  • Re:These people are on drugs by N.O.R.A.D (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @10:47PM
  • Re:Remember, kids... by Crosseyed & Painless (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @05:28PM
  • Re:We need state legislation. NO!!!!! by LWATCDR (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @01:49PM
  • Re:We need state legislation outlawing peer abuse by LWATCDR (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @01:55PM
  • Re:I still didn't hate high school by lightPhoenix (Score:2) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:38AM
  • Pink Floyd said it best: "No more turning away.." by Josh Turpen (Score:2) Thursday April 29 1999, @10:56AM
  • Re:nice job katz / suggestion for followup by AlefNull (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @10:36AM
  • *sigh* .. the myth of "teasing" .. by BeanThere (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @04:55PM
  • Um, and while we're at it ... by BeanThere (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @05:17PM
  • Please .. stop with the "Happens to Everyone" crap by BeanThere (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @05:26PM
  • YES, EXACTLY!! Finally, Some Sense! by BeanThere (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @05:40PM
  • Yeah, right on .. by BeanThere (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @05:55PM
  • Re:School gaming clubs. by chiz (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @04:19PM
  • Re:standards by bjorng (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @05:49PM
  • Re:Self-Criticism et al. by bjorng (Score:2) Thursday April 29 1999, @05:25PM
  • Re:Pink Floyd said it best: "No more turning away. by Grandpa_Spaz (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @01:14PM
  • Re:For the good of the load, whack John Katz! by Grandpa_Spaz (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @01:57PM
  • Re:Culture evolves? It certainly does... by Grandpa_Spaz (Score:2) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:03AM
  • Wrong. Homeschooling is an excellent option. by Grandpa_Spaz (Score:2) Thursday April 29 1999, @01:48PM
  • Hatred: The Root of the Problem by fornix (Score:2) Thursday April 29 1999, @07:44PM
  • Break the Stereotype by pavon (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:33AM
  • Right on kmactane! by pavon (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @12:40PM
  • It's only us vs them if we make it. by pavon (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @01:25PM
  • It's only us vs them if we make it. by pavon (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @01:27PM
  • Katz is playing the Blame Game by fuckwit (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:55AM
  • Re:I still didn't hate high school by jonathan_b_king (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @06:11PM
  • Re:Stop and think. by zuvembi (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @01:52PM
  • The same old thing by RiverRat (Score:1) Saturday May 08 1999, @05:13PM
  • Re:We need state legislation outlawing peer abuse by dickens (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:46AM
  • Re:Not just the teacher's union. by dickens (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:50AM
  • Re:We need state legislation outlawing peer abuse by dickens (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:55AM
  • Re:We need state legislation outlawing peer abuse by dickens (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:56AM
  • Re:Suspension is a stupid solution by dickens (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @12:00PM
  • We need state legislation outlawing peer abuse by dickens (Score:2) Thursday April 29 1999, @10:34AM
  • Re:Give it a rest by fReNeTiK (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @12:46PM
  • Re:Us vs. them by remande (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @02:08PM
  • Re:The Monsters Next Door by remande (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @02:32PM
  • Re:For the good of the load, whack John Katz! by Izaak (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @12:41PM
  • Blind Eye my ass by Shad99 (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @01:10PM
  • Do Something by Shad99 (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @01:55PM
  • Re:It's run like a police state, and it's boring . by Shad99 (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @02:35PM
  • Re:Most current US public schools ... by Shad99 (Score:1) Friday April 30 1999, @05:32AM
  • Re:Remember, kids... by ripcrd (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @10:49AM
  • If they hand only read Heinlein by cpuffer_hammer (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:29AM
  • Relevant piece from The Onion by displaytest (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:37AM
  • Re:Will the choir become chorus? by Vox (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @04:27PM
  • weirdos by xburn4x (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @10:27PM
  • The educational system fails everyone. by leereyno (Score:1) Friday April 30 1999, @09:30AM
  • Re:People who think for themselves are dangerous by leereyno (Score:1) Friday April 30 1999, @09:43AM
  • I have to admit I laughed at that. by leereyno (Score:1) Friday April 30 1999, @01:24PM
  • Re:Culture evolves? by Erasmus (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:11AM
  • Youth Cry Campaign by Lord Kinbote (Score:1) Friday April 30 1999, @11:23PM
  • funny... by CrudPuppy (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @12:15PM
  • Re:We need state legislation outlawing peer abuse by black.flag (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @10:46AM
  • Re:I still didn't hate high school by black.flag (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @10:54AM
  • Yeah, that makes sense. by black.flag (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:02AM
  • Its called "selling out." by black.flag (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:13AM
  • meet the new boss, same as the old boss. by black.flag (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:29AM
  • freaks in control by black.flag (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @11:58AM
  • Re:Its called "selling out." by black.flag (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @12:05PM
  • Direct action gets satisfaction. by black.flag (Score:1) Thursday Apr