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More Stories From The Hellmouth

Posted by JonKatz on Tue Apr 27, 1999 12:00 PM
from the struggling-to-understand dept.
More stories from the Hellmouth that is High School for many bright, individualistic American kids continued to pour in yesterday. They are jarring testimonials from kids, adults, men and women. In the past four days, I've gotten well over 2000. These stories, many of them painful and engraged, tell us more about what happened in Littleton, Colorado -- a lot more -- than the dumb, exaggerated, frightening alarms about video games, Goths and geek monsters pouring out of much of the mainstream media. Update: 04/27 07:44 by CT : Sharon Isaak from Dateline NBC wants to get in touch with folks to do a story on this subject for this show. She's specifically seeking Jay of the Southeast, Anika78 of suburban Chicago, ZBird of New Jersey, Dan in Boise, Idaho, but he'd also like anyone who's been targetted as a result of this thing to contact her. Wonder if they make ya wear pancake makeup...

The messages started coming in a trickle Friday afternoon, then a torrent by Monday. They were wrenching, sometimes astonishing, an electronic outpouring of anger and compassion.

These jarring testimonials explained more - a lot more - about Littleton than all the vapid media stories about video violence, Goths, game-crazed geeks.

For a writer, there? s nothing more humbling than to be at a loss for words. I can't do more justice to these stories than to let them speak for themselves.

By last night, I had received thousands of e-mails about life in junior and high school. Few remembered it fondly - none, in fact. Some had unbearable memories. Some are still recovering. Many more are still there, suffering every day.

Many of you wrote asking if you could help these kids. Others wondered if there was any way to get the message about their lives out beyond Slashdot, if these stories might reach the mainstream media in some form.

Don't worry about that. The column and the responses to it richocheted all over the world, via e-mail, mailing lists, links, even faxes. There were scores of requests to reprint. For any others, and on behalf of Slashdot, be my guest.

On the Net, ideas don't need to be pushed. They find their own audience and stand or fall of their own weight. Eventually, I will answer each e-mail, and am grateful for them.

In the wake of the killings in Littleton, Colorado, here are more stories from The Hellmouth, from its current and former children:


From Eric near Littleton, Colorado:

"?I live just a few miles north of the school between the same streets. I'm a geek under the skin. I was a state champ in the high jump, and the leading scorer on the track team, so I was not quite the outcast that some of the geeks are, but I understand what they are going through. I wasn't very popular despite being the big athlete on campus, but I at least had respect.

I am very happy to see you and Slashdot carrying coverage of "the other side" of the story; the side nobody else wants to look at. These outcast kids are now being swept under the rug at best, and prosecuted at worst."


From Josh, a Slashdot reader:

"I was much like those kids when I was in school - weird, cast out, not much liked, alienated, all that sort of thing'I used to imagine bringing weaponry to school and making the fuckers who made my life miserable beg for mercy. (I was never sure what to do then, though. Do I let them go? They won't have learned, and after that, I could never turn my back. Do I kill them? I really just wanted to be left alone'Remember the scene in "Ender's Game.") I think my parents and their support made a lot of difference to me."


From John of Austin:

"?you can probably imagine the emotional scars that I still tote around with me at age 26. I still have yet to go to college, I have shelves upon shelves of books that I have bought, read and committed to memory. From literature to computer programming, there is no one that I can't have a meaningful and informed conversation with.

But to this day, the thought of entering another educational institution to prove that I have the facilities to be a ?meaningful? member of society makes the hair on the back of my neck stand on end and turns my stomach inside out.

"I am the father now, and as such I worry about the kind of life my son will lead, too much at times, I'm sure'A few weeks ago I was watching the TLC (The Learning Channel) or the Discovery channel, and there was a special on the social structure within the United States prison system on. While I was watching it, I was thinking to myself just how similar it was to the social structure we find in schools.."


From John, who's 37 years old:

"What this really means to all my fellow young geeks out there? Endure. It may take a year, or two or five, but we will win'All those preps, jocks, etc., etc., will have their Ms. degrees, 2.5 kids, a job at Circuit City as an assistant manager, will be wondering where their life went, when we are coming into full bloom and taking over the world."


From Dan:

"How dare you glorify these scum? They were Nazi thugs, nothing more, nothing less. They are brutal murderers. They planned this on Hitler's Birthday, for God's sake. What kind of creep are you? How dare you compare them to geeks? They deserved everything they had coming to them, and so do you. May they rot in Hell."


From Kevin, a parent:

"I am married, have two wonderful little kids, and am, by conventional measures, considered "successful." I'm also a computer geek, a nerd, and still have painful memories of the emotional and physical trauma I sustained in high school. I still attend counseling regularly. I still take anti-depressants every day and will probably continue to do so for the rest of my life.

"Did I feel hate and rage for my attackers? Oh, yes. But I could never do anything about it and couldn't get anyone to help me. The only advice I got from my parents was to just ignore the bullys and eventually they'd leave me alone. Fortunately, I don't seem to be pre-disposed to violence or was too much of a coward to consider it. I can, however, see how the wrong kid in the wrong situation could go over the edge."


From Peter in Boston:

"I am a geek, and very proud of it. I have been beaten, spit on, pushed, jeered at. Food is sometimes thrown at and on me while teachers pretend not to see, people trip me. Jocks knock me down in the hallway. They steal my notes, call me a geek and a fag and a freak, tear up my books, have pissed in my locker twice. They cut my shirt and rip it. They wait for me in the boy's room and beat me up. I have to wait an hour to leave school to make sure they're gone.

Mostly, I honestly think, this is because I'm smarter than they are, and they hate that.

The really amazing thing is, they are the most popular people in the school, while everybody thinks I'm a freak. The teachers slobber all over them. Mostly, the other kids laugh, or walk away and pretend not to see it. The whole school cheers when they play sports. Sometimes, I want very much to kill them. Sometimes, I picture how I'd do it. Wouldn't you? But unlike those guys in Littleton, I never will. I value my own life much more. When I read these messages, I would ask other geeks to try and remember that, no matter what. And get online and make contact."


From Rory in Chicago:

"Would you bring a kid abused by his family to counseling and call him the problem? If that kid expressed rage and anger toward the world, we would call it a product of his abuse, and try to help him with this rage, treating him as the victim. However when it is other kids abusing each other, we treat the abusees as the problem and ignore the abusers altogether. Hunting down and persecuting the abusees is only going to alienate them further - not only with their peers be persecuting them but so will their parents and teachers."


From Jason, a Slashdot reader:

"Jon, please take these e-mails'and take them to CNN, ABC, NBC, whoever, what ever. Make them heard, and stand up for all of us! Geeks = different, different = okay, if not better! Make my mother understand, sweeping problems under the rug, or simply not dealing with them, doesn't do jack shit! And there's a bigger problem, it's them!

The people who think being different is bad, being geek is bad, TV, Games, the Internet, all bad! It will be hard, a minority against a majority! But please do it!"


From Evan: "I am 24 years old, and a successful professional now, but the, fifteen years ago, I was in the Hellmouth. Just wanted to shout some small form of encouragement out to the kids fighting today. Take your fight for the right to be different to the people with power, and enlist your parents? help. Remember that if you can get your parents to understand your need to be creative, and non-conformist, because your brain is just plain bigger than the small world of middle and high school, your parents can make a fuss to school boards. But if they won't listen, go to the school boards yourself. Peacefully, but forcefully, assert your right to be different by speaking out against fear and oppression. Because that's what it is. It's all about the fear.

People fear what they don't understand, and let's face it, the world of a geek isn't something most people can understand, if only because it's a complicated world filled with smart folks. And most people aren't complicated smart folks. You have GOT to break them of the fear. You gotta explain that it's an outlet, like racquetball or bridge. You have to explain it's not violent, it's colorful. You want violent? Look at football, look at sports.

That's REAL ACTUAL violence, not the simulated, stylized, far from even looking-real violence of video games or D&D (Dungeons and Dragons). And for a real kicker, ask them how many geeks are arrested for violent crimes and misdemeanors when compared to popular athletes."


From Cory, a high school student:

"I go to a private high school and on Wednesday in religion class I told the class, because we were on the subject that I could understand what would drive them (the killers in Littleton, Colorado) to do it. They said that it couldn't happen at our school and I responded by saying that it could because back in my freshman year it was so bad (the jokes, abuse, etc.) that I wished I had had a gun at home. I am a Senior now and 9 days from graduation. News got to the administration and I was suspended until I received an evaluation by a psychologist and was deemed safe to return to school. I have not been back to school since."


From MishtaE: "I've been out of school for awhile (not very long) but I still physically shake, I feel adrenaline go through my system when I think about my own junior high experiences'The feeling of hopelessness, of knowing that you have no one to go to who can or will make it STOP is a very horrid feeling. It makes you consider irrational things, because the rational ones obviously don't apply.

"But make no mistake, the cruelty inflicted on kids doesn't magically go away when you graduate (or drop out and get your GED at 16 as I did). You live with it, you learn to deal with it, but it's still there, and it does change you."


From LHRunkle, a self-described geek Mom:

"?my six-year old wonders why he isn't popular on the block, but does not enjoy racing his bike, or playing soccer. (Soccer is becoming fun.) He also wonders why noone else is reading the books he is. The online community did not exist when I was in high school, but geek culture did. Dungeons & Dragons (the original three-booklet set) and science fiction saved me.

"How many scared parents have taken the time to introduce their child to the items that kept them sane in high school? How many high school libraries are even allowed to stock Theodore Sturgeon, or all of Robert Heinlein? Before we go to Net culture, we need to face local culture. How many schools enforce a respect-for-all policy, and enforce it fairly? I know that I have a budding geek, and if I can get him sane through the next thirteen years, there will be another decent adult on this planet."


From Simon:

"The mainstream is missing the point. All over the world, "geeks" are standing up and saying "This is horrible and I know what cause it" and all over the world people are saying "Oh, my God! Another killer!" I'll spell it out: "The killers are a symptom of the alienation of an unrecognized minority - the geeks." No, that doesn't make it right. No, that doesn't mean a thousand more killers are lurking in the computer rooms of your schools.

"Failure to understand this severely limits your ability to correct it. I read with dismay that geeks are being cut off from the Internet and violent online games so that they "won't become killers."

Follow my logic here:

"Given: The killers were motivated in no small part by alienation. Reducing a persons contact with like-minded people increases their alienation. Reducing a person's sense of identify increases their sense of alienation. Geeks tend to communicate with each other via the Internet and online games.

"Conclusion: Cutting geeks off from each other (Internet access) and their identity (choice of clothing) will increase rather than decrease the likelihood of violence."

"I've been wracking my brain to figure out what stopped me (from hurting someone). I've been asking myself "what can I hand to people to fix this?" The answer is very simple. The faces are very clear in my memory of the few "popular people" who took the time to talk to me and find out about me. There are maybe a half a dozen. They showed me that they were people too.

I heard a report, it may not be true [it is] that one of the killers went and told one of his classmates before the killing, "I like you. Go home." If that happened if you are that person, you know that your attitude saved your life. If there were a few more like you, maybe it would have saved everyone."


From Armadillo:

" I thought I had put this behind me but I obviously haven't. This whole past week has really torn me up inside because 15 years ago, I was one of those kids. Because HS for me was sheer and utter Hell. I have no single memory that I can recall as being good.

I have no single person who I can recall as a friend. Hell, even the OTHER rejects kicked me around. I feel like I'm seeing this all through the eyes of a refugee from a war, who by some circumstance is rescued, taken off to a land far from the conflict, far from the danger and death and constant fear and destruction.

Years later, after having made some personal peace with the past, if not the people, they hear or see a report that their former home town or village has been bombed and the people they knew killed and it all comes flooding back.

"Why is it that we as geeks, freaks, nerds, dorks, dweebs'have to suffer while the clueless, bow-headed, tostosterone poisoned "normal" people are allowed to get away with murder'I wonder just how many outcasts have been driven to suicide because of just one too many tauntings or practical jokes on a particular afternoon?

"Why do we murder the spirits of our most gifted and talented young people? THEY are the ones that are our future. THEY are the ones that are best equipped to build the world to their hopes and dreams. The prom queens and cheerleaders will have their 15 minutes and then take their places among the teeming masses of consumers. They have already shown they want to be lead around and are more than happy to let society tell them where to go and what to do."


From Nick:

" I'm a junior in high school in a suburb of.... I felt that in light of what happened last Tuesday and your recent article on Slashdot, I should respond. Recently, one of my friends, Chris, was suspended for three days. He's an athlete (football and shotput), but is no means considered a "jock" as he plays computer games, reads fantasy novels, plays Warhammer 40K, etc. One person, Ryan, considered a "nerd" by his peers, mislabeled him [Chris} as a jock and decided to taunt him verbally. Chris is normally a nice guy who's never been in a fight before, as he gets along with most students. This verbal abuse continued for almost the entire school year so far.

Last Thursday, Chris slapped Ryan upside the head due to a particularly nasty thing that was said and Ryan picked up a chair, shouting death threats and swears. They were quickly broken up by the teacher and hall monitors, and were escorted to the dean's office.

Normally, each would only get a 1 day in-school suspension for what they did, but due to the incident in Colorado, each got three days and counseling by the school psychiatrist for the remainder of the year. The deans obviously overreacted, given the circumstances. What the main problem is here is that years of torment in people like Ryan's lives have led to such "classes" -- Goths, nerds, freaks, preps, etc. People form together in cliques where people are distinctly filed into the social pecking order. The high school situation could (and is) leading to a French Revolution-esque "class war" where social outcasts decide to say enough with the years of torment. Unfortunately, this is happening sooner than we think.


From Sally:

"The irony in the current coverage, at least to me, is that I remember my leather-jacketed, spiky-haired, combat-boot wearing friends as being for the most part peaceful, gentle, sensitive types - lots of vegetarians and anti-nuke people. Sure, there were a few who probably could have benefited from some therapy, but most of them were - and are - the nicest, kindest people I knew, despite their rather alarming appearance. After all, we had to be like that - we all knew what it felt like to be shoved in a locker, spit on, have stuff thrown at us, etc. I seem to remember the football players and other jocks as being a lot more violent and given to fits of rage and other displays of aggression.

... I certainly agree that the two shooters in Littleton were deranged boys filled with hate, But it's a fine line between a supposedly "well-adjusted" teenager [who bashes freaks] and a disturbed one."


From Matthew C in Wisconsin:

"I, like many of the Slashdot audience, was one of those those kids in high school, and junior high, and elementary school. I have suffered what those kids suffered, and continue to suffer. I made it through, but apparently not everyone does. The response to your article seems to suggest that there are many of us out there who want to help do something to curb the backlash to focus on the correct issue. I was wondering, in your surely large catalogue of responses to this column, have you found any hints of where we might send letters? Or who we might contact, to start telling people what the real problems are?

I want to help. I want to write, to talk, to help ensure that geeks of today and tomorrow aren't further persecuted for pursuing differences from the norm. We have to spread the word far and wide, teachers, parents and people who should know better than to ban trenchcoats, take away computers, and further drive their kids into depression and isolation. How can we organize something meaningful?"

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  • wrong audience by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:07AM
  • The Story. Part II by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:21AM
  • kids should know that high school sucks by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:01AM
  • Cursing the killers a.k.a. 'Rot in Hell' by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:14AM
  • How To Win.... by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:33AM
  • What we can do by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:45AM
  • The only solution here... by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:59AM
  • Colorado...WHAT THE HELL IS THIS ALL FOR?! by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @09:01AM
  • Its IS NOT America, and the Guns are NOT a part. by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @09:06AM
  • Maybe it is America.... by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @09:24AM
  • Katz is off base by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @09:26AM
  • Its IS America...and guns especially by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @10:19AM
  • Dry your eyes audience, and grow up. by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @10:21AM
  • Getting the "In crowd" to understand by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @10:28AM
  • Some Thoughts Needed To be Opened by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @10:37AM
  • Sports are not inherently evil. by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @11:02AM
  • Its IS America...and guns especially by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @11:59AM
  • Shunned by geeks, too. by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @01:22PM
  • Read my plight by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @03:19PM
  • Its IS America...and guns especially by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @05:18PM
  • Daelin's theory of politics by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:44PM
  • Maybe it is Guns in America & Cars in London by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:48PM
  • Jump on the bandwagon. . . by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @09:04PM
  • HOMESCHOOLING by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @10:10PM
  • America: Ain't it grand! by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @04:45AM
  • You missed my point entirely. by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @05:46AM
  • Skewed values by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @06:07AM
  • Re:You missed my point entirely. by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Thursday May 06 1999, @06:23AM
  • brings back memories by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Friday May 07 1999, @05:03AM
  • Re:Cutting sports by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Saturday May 08 1999, @02:53PM
  • SCHOOL TORTURE by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Wednesday May 12 1999, @07:04AM
  • Re:The Story. Part II by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Friday May 14 1999, @05:45AM
  • Re:I have little sympathy by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Friday May 14 1999, @06:27AM
  • There are Happy Geeks Too by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:48AM
  • School bus mercenaries. by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Tuesday April 27 1999, @10:15AM
  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:24AM (#1914162)
    While I understand the outcries against unfair treatment that are being expressed, I think it's also scary that many of these e-mails seem to express disdain and even hatred for ALL non-geeks. What these e-mails seem to ask for is acceptance and the control of their lives, yet they don't seem to recognize that not everyone else out there is against them or insensitive to them.

    I come from a fairly unique position in this debate, having been on both sides. My experience through the 9th grade was that of the outcast. I was the guy that didn't really get much attention, was passed over in sports, ridiculed by other kids, and hit, tripped, etc in the halls and outside of school. Then, in about the 8th grade, I discovered that I could run. By my junior year I was captain of the track team, and everyone knew who I was. I still vividly remember the day in 9th grade where someone started to poke fun at me and one of the guys they were with said "Leave him alone, man, he's that runner."

    Throughout high school I still had friends who were geeks, but I also had a lot of friends who were jocks, and I found that for most of them they weren't any different. Granted, there were those who were real jerks, but there were just as many geeks as jocks that fit the jerk category. I guess my purpose in writing this is to ask that all the geeks that hate jocks, do you really hate ALL jocks? It can be just as dangerous to stereotype one's enemies as it can be to be stereotyped yourself.
  • Conformity by kovacsp (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @12:37PM
  • Solution by Luis Casillas (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @04:43PM
  • Did you even read the message clips? by Alan (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @11:06AM
  • School by drwiii (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @09:36AM
  • Becoming an Adult by Aaron M. Renn (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:11AM
  • Re:Becoming an Adult by Aaron M. Renn (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @04:17AM
  • by Aaron M. Renn (539) <arenn@urbanophile.com> on Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:50AM (#1914170) Homepage
    It is shocking to see the way the principal'a and teachers treated students, especially in the aftermath of the Colorado killings. It reminds me almost exactly of the treatment Balint Vazsonyi received when he was a student in Hungary under both the Nazis and the communists. Think the wrong thoughts and you get "counseling" or kicked out or worse. (He describes this experience in his book "America's Thirty Year's War").

    But while it offends, it is not surprising. Years of Supreme Court rulings have basically stripped students of anything resembling rights. It is legal for the school to force them to go through metal detectors to enter the building. Or to randomly search their lockers without cause. Or to censor their articles in the school newspaper. Or to install camers to monitor their every move. Or to force them to submit to drug tests if they want to participate in any extracirricular activity. For someone who spends 12 years in a school with armed police guards, cameras everywhere, random searches of their possession, metal detectors, and administrators with dictatorial powers, how will they every grow up into adults who behave as though they have freedom and rights? If you spend years with school guards who can search your locker at will, why would not think the police can search your car or home at will when you get older? It is very scary what is going on. (My description is accurate for many urban schools. Soon to be more suburban schools if I read things right).

    And of course that one letter sent home by the principal encouraging students to rat on friends they think are acting "suspicious". That's also a tactic straight out of the Soviet Union, where children were invited to inform on their peers and their parents. Witness the DARE program as well (a program that is proven not to reduce drug abuse at all, BTW) where in some schools the students are told to inform the cops on their parents if they see drugs. (Included are lies about how the parent will simply get help - no mention of arrest) What kind of a message is that? The government is putting itself up as the ultimate authority figure in children's lives, supplanting the primary role of the parents in shaping their children's values.

    There there are the "zero tolerance" policies. This is shorthand for zero intelligence in my opinion. Teachers can simply say bring a steak knife to school to cut the chicken breast your Mom packed for lunch, you're expelled (this happened in Indianapolis). It's so much easier than using judgement. You see, judgement requires intelligence, which is something far too few teachers and adminstrators have. With rare exceptions I was both smarter and more knowledgable than the teachers in my high school. Look at the average SAT scores of education students. I rest my case.

    Of course teachers also value conformity to their way of thinking. It's makes their life so much simpler when they don't have to deal with the unexpected.

    I am genuinely afraid for the future. I cannot even imagine sending my children to public schools.
  • Shout down the "child rearing authorities" by Eric Green (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @11:01AM
  • Have schools changed? by Eric Green (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @03:23PM
  • Too bad. by Eric Green (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @03:36PM
  • Human nature (Score:5)

    by maelstrom (638) on Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:35AM (#1914174) Homepage Journal
    I've made it through the hell we call Middle and High School. I had some unique experiences because my father was in the Army and I got to go to another new school every other year.

    I learned early on that you had to respond with violence in order to gain any respect. Not only was I the "new kid", but I was also a geek and I was in fist fights constantly starting in elementary school. I'm really quite a non-violent person, but if someone pushes me too far then I will fight back, and I suspect thats what happened with these latest school shootings.

    I can well remember sitting in Middle School science class quite peacefully while a little bully gave me a "red neck" which is a term describing how the giver slaps the back of the givee's neck multiple times causing it to become quite red. He did this once and I sat there and did nothing. The sound of the skin being slapped went through the whole class room and the teacher sat there and didn't say a word. The bully did it again. My friend next to me says that I mumbled one more time and I'm gonna kill him or something to that effect, but I don't remember saying anything. The next time he did it I stood up threw him against the wall and proceeded to beat the tar out of him. Of course, THEN the teacher noticed and we were broken up and sent to the office. Now due to the zero tolerence rules we were both suspended even though I had never been in the office for any kind of trouble and my attacker was well known there. So, for standing up for myself in self defense, I received the same punishment as my attacker. In fact, we sat near each other during our 3 days in In School Suspension.

    However, I could never think of doing anything like the TCM did because I had been raised with firearms. I was given a .22 rifle for my 13th birthday, I had hunter safety training and I joined the High School Rifle team (Varsity Letter no less). There's no way I could point an unloaded weapon at another human being much less a loaded one.

    I think what saved me more than anything in my High Schools (I went to 4 different ones) was that I was a member of the JROTC (Junior Reserve Officer Training Corps). It seems weird for me to say so, because it seems like such a non geek thing to be a part of. But I was a part of a large group of people that were jocks, geeks, freaks, and every other subgroup, and for the most part we all got along and had a bit of esprit d'corps to boot.

    I suspect that if I were in High School right now I would be dragged into counseling. I've always had a fascination with Military History, Military tactics, equipment and everything else. When I was in the 5th grade I had a bizzare fascination with the European theatre of WW2 (well I WAS in Germany at the time). I read every book on WW2 in the library including LOTS on Nazis and Hitler. I spent much of my free time in front of a computer often connected to BBS' (where I first downloaded Wolf-3D long distance from Apogee BBS several minutes after it came out :). And last and certainly not least I would go down several times a week and shoot a firearm downrange and receive training on how to become a better marksman.

    I'm sure it would be quite obvious to all these supposed "experts" that I was some raving psycho ready to let loose another school shooting. The worst part is, that every one of the activities I listed are what kept me sane through High School. Something about competitive shooting focused and calmed me more than almost anything could.

    Well I guess this turned into a personal story which I didn't intend when I started.. What I really meant to say was that I suspect that many Geeks if given the chance to be in the Majority would discriminate against the Jocks and everyone else. Many of the posts I've read have stereotyped negatively ALL jocks. This is no better than stereotyping geeks and we need to realize this!

    Who here would deny the fact that if Geeks ran the schools that everyone else would be taunted for running Windows and not Linux or *BSD? Or programming in Visual Basic and not C or Perl? There may not be as much physical abuse, but the mental abuse would be there...

    I don't know what the answer is.. Humans have been forming into little groups and fighting with the other groups from the very beginning... The only good thing to come from this shooting is that at least we are finally talking about this.
  • Geek Oppression Webpage by volkris (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @05:19PM
  • What we can do by spacey (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @10:00AM
  • You miss the point. by DunbarTheInept (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @11:40AM
  • I have little sympathy by pingouin (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @10:44AM
  • This is RMS speaking :) by pingouin (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @12:08PM
  • You're the exception that proves my rant by pingouin (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @05:12PM
  • Thank you for visiting by pingouin (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @05:47PM
  • We need to understand them too. by silver (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @05:00PM
  • public schools are at least part of the problem by Wansu (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @09:20AM
  • Remember the stupid in front of fraternities. by Xamot (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @09:44AM
  • Reference "Dan" in article. by Xamot (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @10:06AM
  • Alcohol and other things (way off topic) by Xamot (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @07:22AM
  • Collect the emails and publish? by mackga (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @10:14AM
  • Conditioned Response.... by Danse (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:41AM
  • No he isn't... by Danse (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @09:47AM
  • Sounds like I'm lucky... by jkovach (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @02:11PM
  • We need to be careful here by demon (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @10:42AM
  • No it is the Right Audience by chris (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:47AM
  • Take this to the Press ASAP. by Masem (Score:2) Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:38AM
  • Maybe it is Guns in America &amp;amp; Cars in by Piers Cawley (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @02:25AM
  • Maybe it is America.... by jedidiah (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @12:09PM
  • Its IS America, but the Guns are only a part. by jedidiah (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @12:13PM
  • Its IS America...and guns especially by jedidiah (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @12:15PM
  • Its IS America...and guns especially by jedidiah (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @12:18PM
  • Don't let this deter you from going to University by Lars Clausen (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:05AM
  • Ah, but they would change Barney... by root (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @11:03AM
  • by root (1428) on Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:32AM (#1914202) Homepage
    When the school reopens, the geeks will still be shunned and ridiculed. Anyone 'caught' making comments like the thousands Katz received will be subjected to the trauma of being ordered to receive 'counseling' or expelled. The lesson being that differing opinions and the improper use of words is itself a dangerous and heinous act to be suppressed. This just builds more tension and resentment toward a school system structured more like a prison than an educational institution. And no one, not the student, not the parents, not the media, will stand up to defend a different opinion because a paranoid society will only suppress such people harder. Some will, on mere reflex, curse them as nazi/homo/goth/deathsquad sympathizers. Others, particularly in the schools, where mind control is stronger, will try to convince them of the error of their wrongthink. They will be badgered, continuously, unendingly, letters written to their parents, physicians secretly notified, psychiatrists and social workers too, all behind their backs, the conformists see it as their God given mission to 'help' these people before (they just assume) they can hurt anyone else.
  • Hated Opinion by jafac (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @09:35AM
  • Please be careful by jafac (Score:2) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:11AM
  • No not martyrs... by Chris Parrinello (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:49AM
  • Congratulations. You are very wise. by Robin Hood (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @11:36AM
  • It's about time by jd (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:36AM
  • Should geeks go to High School?? by Sabby (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @10:40AM
  • Life later on is better? Heck no. by Sabby (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @11:04AM
  • Additional stuff. by Sabby (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @11:06AM
  • Time for a separate Hellmouth page? YES by Rene S. Hollan (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:35AM
  • The U.S. Culture of Victimhood by Rene S. Hollan (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @10:54AM
  • Email the article! by Muck (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:10AM
  • Remember the stupid in front of fraternities. by ksheff (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @06:25PM
  • I was a football playing geek by ksheff (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:04PM
  • let's just ban everything by ksheff (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:46PM
  • Maybe it is America.... by ksheff (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @09:03PM
  • Let us know how NBC works out! by HBK-4G (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @12:56PM
  • kids should know that high school sucks by dsfox (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:14AM
  • kids should know that high school sucks by dsfox (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @10:18AM
  • kids know high school sucks; Escape the system by dsfox (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @10:33AM
  • kids know high school sucks; Escape the system by dsfox (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @10:36AM
  • They won't give up by acb (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:02PM
  • Conformity by gas (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @09:54AM
  • Don't Abandon Public Schools by Shimmer (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @10:34AM
  • Re:Public education was NOT a Jeffersonian dream by Shimmer (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @10:18AM
  • The Story. Part II by Mickey Jameson (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:38AM
  • I think it's pretty clear that violent hazing of students lower on the totem pole of school society is both permitted, supported, and abused by school administrators and faculty in an attempt to maintain order. This simply must stop.

    While I'm offended at the flagrantly violent abuses I endured from other students while in high school, I'm outraged that the administrators actually preserved this system of order. As an individual student I simply didn't know it was this pervasive throughout the American school system, nor did I realize to the extend at which public school faculty and administrators regularly use students to impose order upon other students in a caste system; this is reminiscent of the Brown Shirts of Germany -- imposing order through violence against the minority German Jewish population during the 1930's.

    And lest you think that I'm taking this too far by drawing parallels with Nazi Germany, allow me to point out that I was assaulted several times by groups as large as six with metal chains on school grounds, and the faculty wouldn't do anything to preserve my safety because they claimed I didn't have any witnesses to back my story up. This is after they called me in to the administrative office and nursing station to find out why I had bruises all over my body, ostensibly in order to determine if my parents had been abusing me. Once they realized that in fact it was other popular students committing these crimes they lost all interest in the matter. So the school system would have called state protective services in an instant if they thought my parents had committed a violent crime against me, but once they realized it was popular students to blame they shut up and told me to go away (they didn't even suggest I should call the police). What assholes.

    Damn, I haven't thought about this in years and I find myself getting outright pissed off thinking about it as an adult. We do not accept this behavior in adult life, why should we impose this abuse on our children?

    Now I'm 31 and far from school grounds these days, but allow me to suggest to the younger audiences here on Slashdot that if you're experiencing this kind of violent abuse in school: drop out! Just go get your GED and immediately sign up for University or local Community College courses. Once you make it out of high school and start going to college (especially if you avoid those stupid fraternities), you will find that the adults behave civilized or they go to jail. Don't put up with violence, that high school diploma is meaningless compared to a decent degree and post graduate degree; never mind the emotional scaring you will likely avoid. And you don't need that high school diploma to get into college, you simply need to get good marks in a community college, or local state University, to transfer to just about any good private or public undergraduate institution.

    I will never allow my children (when I do have children) into a public school because of these experiences.
  • Lets have some perspective by nadador (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @09:22AM
  • We need to be careful here by DrPatPobox (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @09:02AM
  • Not sympathy... by cpt kangarooski (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @06:58PM
  • I liked a "Tanya" -- And if you do, TELL HER! by cpt kangarooski (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:03PM
  • Geeks Anonymous? by Ravenwing (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @09:09AM
  • The Story. Part II (Please, be real) by Palin Majere (Score:2) Tuesday April 27 1999, @03:01PM
  • I feel sympathy for both parties but... by ferret (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:31AM
  • Woah! RMS, is that you in disquise?! by ferret (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @11:42AM
  • Let's move on by robbo (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:38AM
  • How to succeed in life without really trying by rwa2 (Score:2) Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:46PM
  • I'm a geek 2...BUT by myrddin (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @09:51AM
  • Violence and Quake / Doom / etc. by Nafai (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:00AM
  • by neo (4625) on Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:33AM (#1914241) Homepage
    Understanding why these kids became monsters in no way condones what they did. While they may rot in hell for their actions, we must live in this hell... where people can't see past the mask to find the person underneath.
  • How are the outcasts supposed to deal? by rafial (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:10AM
  • Other useful sites by rafial (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:16AM
  • I had the same thought... by rafial (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:34AM
  • I hope this is a troll by rafial (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:45AM
  • Its IS NOT America, and the Guns are NOT a part. by Kythe (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @02:32PM
  • Maybe it is America.... by krital (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @11:15AM
  • Mirror, mirror... by Bjorn (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @09:01AM
  • An extension... by Bjorn (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @11:18AM
  • Shocking, but Not Surprising by jazon (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @05:25PM
  • this subject really gets to me. by mazeone (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:34AM
  • Love moderation by seva (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @01:57PM
  • Time for a separate Hellmouth page? YES by CoffeeNowDammit (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @12:04PM
  • Engineering a better society by Julian Morrison (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @02:05PM
  • It's a Two-Sided Sword by wynlyndd (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:30AM
  • Take this to the Press ASAP. by Rubinstien (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:16AM
  • Katz is off base(ha) by castle (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @11:56AM
  • Nerd Revenge/Things get better? by lungofish (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @11:09AM
  • Response to wardrobe discrimination by Vetinari (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @11:57PM
  • Re:Don't accept violent abuse in public schools! by Vetinari (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @06:45AM
  • Hey... Nothing wrong with mechanics by JerkBoB (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @12:57PM
  • School papers by tob (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @04:05AM
  • blind freedom by maskatron (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:39AM
  • The Man in the Grey Flannel Suit was a ghost by chialea (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @11:49AM
  • There IS an answer! There IS a way out! by leonbrooks (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @10:12PM
  • Re: It's a Two-Sided Sword by Orgasmatron (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @09:02AM
  • The Story. Part II by Accipiter (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:03AM
  • The Story. Part II by Accipiter (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @09:06AM
  • The Story. Part II by Accipiter (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @11:59AM
  • A different experience by Lemmy Caution (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:27AM
  • Good answer! by Thag (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @12:13PM
  • Valueless knowledge by Rotten (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:28AM
  • Is High School Really that bad? by mushroom blue (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:27PM
  • Its IS America...and guns especially by LarsWestergren (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @09:54AM
  • Its IS America...and guns especially by LarsWestergren (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:40PM
  • Re:Jump on the bandwagon. . . by LarsWestergren (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @05:45AM
  • Re:Maybe it is Guns in America & Cars in Londo by LarsWestergren (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @10:26PM
  • So... when do we see this go mainstream by Knara (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:34AM
  • A question by Felix The Cat (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:13PM
  • Witch Hunts by Felix The Cat (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:36PM
  • A Solution by Spirald (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @09:34AM
  • Time for a separate Hellmouth page? by MAXOMENOS (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:44AM
  • Great to see this wave of understanding but... by edhall (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @09:41PM
  • lack of discipline. by Aussie (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @04:16PM
  • No time for rebellion by ToastyKen (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @04:46PM
  • They won't give up by Dast (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:00AM
  • How do we get this information out to students??? by Dast (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @03:29PM
  • time for change by Tim Randolph (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:22AM
  • Some schools are OK by hmckee (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @10:22AM
  • My escape was drugs by ehintz (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:58AM
  • Conformity by daviddennis (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:56AM
  • Just why everybody assumes that a geek.. by Axe (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @12:32PM
  • Big problem in American schools... by Axe (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @05:30PM
  • Zero Tolerance by Conor6 (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @11:05AM
  • No one will ever accept the truth by FreeUser (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @08:05AM
  • For the love of god... by PsychoSpunk (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:36AM
  • Message from a fellow Geek by speedbump (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @05:39AM
  • Torn by OWJones (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @03:00PM
  • Katz is off base by Davorama (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @09:37AM
  • Kids that crack (probably off-topic, but....) by Fyndo (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @03:51PM
  • Well, I liked highschool.... by Fyndo (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @05:10PM
  • Hang on, Hang on by mikeraz (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:25AM
  • What changed me... by Geek In Training (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @10:15AM
  • Human nature by TallGuy (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @11:09AM
  • re: Congratulations. You are very wise. by ShinGouki (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:53PM
  • Living in the "Subdivisions" by ShinGouki (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:57PM
  • by ShinGouki (12500) on Tuesday April 27 1999, @10:51AM (#1914309) Homepage
    Like some of the other posters, I've no real wish to rewrite my essay-length post from the first Hellmouth article (subj: Some thoughts...) but seeing some of the responses to this article (most specifically, the one i'm responding to) have made me think a bit further on some points I had missed in my first bit.

    Life is not a game. There is no way to win.

    Some people persist in trying to live life as if it were a game (most people, in fact), keeping "score" with such things as money, posessions, power, etc. This is all bullshit. Yes, you need money to live off of, and you need money to do things (for the most part) but that is _all_ you need money for. I don't know who said this, but I once saw this quote somewhere: "In 100 years nobody will remember how much I had in my bank account, nobody will remember what kind of car I drove...but in 100 years the world may be a better place because I made a difference in the life of just one child." This explains, quite nicely, my feelings on all the "we get rich while they work at McDonalds, so we've won" posts. Life is not a competition, life is life. (this is why we have two separate words for these two ideas)

    For some people, money, fame, power, etc. may be the things they feel themselves called to chase after...these things may be what makes them truly happy, but what is right for one person is not necessarily right for everyone (or anyone) else. Conforming to non-conformity is still conforming...if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice (any other Rush fans here? :P).

    I have the technical ability to be a fairly well paid sys admin, webmaster, whatever and everyone I know boggles at the fact that I'm not...they constantly ask me why I haven't taken some position with some large (or small) company making ~60k a year for doing what is fun and natural for me. No matter how I try, I can't explain to them well enough that the last thing I want is to wake up at age 35 (i'm 22 now) and find that I've become the Man in the Grey Flannel Suit (!) type of mindless worker-ant happily trundling along and giving away bits of my life (time) to someone just so I can have a nice car or a nice apartment. For me, I need to take the time and find something that I really love to do, something that I can define by being who I am instead of something that defines me by being what I do. It is also necssary that I can make money at this since I _do_ need to eat :P The key here is that I have come to understand that this approach to life is not for everyone, in fact it may not be right for anyone besides me. That still doesn't change the fact that I'd like people to understand how I feel about it, but that may come (or not) with time.

    The greatest bit of advice I have to give is to make sure that while you're so busy trying to beat "them" you don't become them. As with my last post on the first article, I'd like to leave off with a bit of wisdom from a great philosopher...

    "'This is my way, where is yours?' I said to those who asked me 'the way,' for 'the way' does not exist. Thus spoke Zarathustra." --Friedrich Nietzsche (from Also Sprach Zarathustra (Thus Spoke Zarathustra)).


    -dk
  • Um... No! by Parity (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @12:19PM
  • Re:Nerd Revenge/Things get better? by sadist (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @03:55AM
  • Its IS America...and guns especially by Spectra72 (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @01:34PM
  • Should geeks go to High School?? by jabber (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:59AM
  • Re:Nothing wrong with mechanics - apology by jabber (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @09:43AM
  • Maybe it is Guns in America &amp; Cars in Lond by jonm (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @12:37AM
  • Lighten up on the teachers by Weasel Boy (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @09:05AM
  • Much, much better! by Weasel Boy (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @09:57AM
  • I liked a "Tanya" -- And if you do, TELL HER! by Weasel Boy (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @10:10AM
  • Jon Katz IS the mainstream media! by Weasel Boy (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @10:19AM
  • We need an underground railroad for geeks by Weasel Boy (Score:2) Tuesday April 27 1999, @09:41AM
  • The Story. Part II by BenJamin.G (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @02:27PM
  • The Story. Part II by Mark Gordon (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @06:21PM
  • Right now only people who read /. read this. by yek401 (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:49AM
  • being a geek by romana (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @12:43AM
  • We need an underground railroad for geeks by PedXing (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @10:39AM
  • Dude... by JDLazarus (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @09:07AM
  • Yes. by JDLazarus (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:55PM
  • Maybe it is Guns in America &amp; Cars in Lond by Wiseleo (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @10:57PM
  • Katz is off base by Magneto (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:45AM
  • No it is the Right Audience by KeefR (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:26AM
  • Its IS America...and guns especially by Captain Teflon (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @01:01PM
  • A different experience by jarod (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:02AM
  • Hang Tough-You'll get through it by aerobee (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @03:37AM
  • Academically advanced students in short supply? by Visoblast (Score:2) Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:41AM
  • what?? not acceptable by Null_Packet (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:42AM
  • Light at the end of a tunnel, and how to bring it by kwy (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @05:40PM
  • Thanks... by Alternity (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:40AM
  • Good feedback by Alternity (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @09:15AM
  • Great to see this wave of understanding but... by Alternity (Score:2) Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:35AM
  • Katz is off base by arcade (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @10:29AM
  • What we can do (Score:3)

    by lee (17524) <lee.pyrzqxgl@org> on Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:29AM (#1914341) Homepage
    We can speak out and start teaching children at an early age that ridiculing people who are different is wrong.

    I was a new kid in the middle of the first grade. the first teacher I had at that school thought learning to get along and fit in was part of growing up. Instead of stepping in when the kids started to tease the new kid, she let them. She let them get away with it even when I told her they were hitting me. She said if I would just ignore them they would stop. She told me not to be a tattletale and a crybaby. Her inaction taught them that their actions were ok.

    I was tortured over the next 3 years until I moved out of that school. They got away with it because they were many and I was alone. That teacher had an opportunity to prevent at least some of that, but felt the lesson I needed, to learn how to fit in, was more important.

    This week I have talked to people who echoed her sentiments. I think such attitudes are very much part of the problem. It is not always possible to make your tormenters stop without help. I was told to ignore them and they will go away. Ignoring them did not make them go away. Instead of growing bored with a captive who did not scream, they hit me harder and tried more severe tortures until I screamed. Instead of me learning to fit in, they learned how to torment.

    We can reach out to those young people we know on the net, welcome the teen geeks to our groups--from linux users groups to our weekly D&D game. We can talk to them online and let them know that life gets better, but we need to teach the others what they are doing is wrong.
  • A New Form of Racism by Coretti (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:57AM
  • a lesson of practicality by Tannin Kal (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:49AM
  • Conformity by Tardigrade (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @11:24AM
  • Its IS America...and guns especially by tm23 (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @02:49PM
  • Take this to the Press ASAP. by dillon_rinker (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @09:34AM
  • Re:Its IS America...and guns especially by Jon-o (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @10:47AM
  • Not just jocks by Seth Scali (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @12:36PM
  • kids should know that high school sucks by Sir Spank-o-tron (Score:2) Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:48AM
  • Have schools changed? by yzorderex (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:39PM
  • The U.S. Culture of Victimhood by FatSean (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @10:11AM
  • kids know high school sucks; Escape the system by Doomsayer (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @10:19AM
  • kids know high school sucks; Escape the system by Doomsayer (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @12:19PM
  • Litigation and complacency by dmw (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @09:47AM
  • "inventory test" == personality profile by AJWM (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @12:07PM
  • Don't kid yourself. by AJWM (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @12:17PM
  • Face a few facts yourself. by AJWM (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @12:29PM
  • Correction. by AJWM (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @12:38PM
  • Don't kid yourself, II by AJWM (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @12:48PM
  • The killers were EVIL. May or may not be geek. by AJWM (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @01:05PM
  • Geeks Anonymous? by warpeightbot (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:11AM
  • by magic (19621) on Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:21AM (#1914362) Homepage
    FastFood for thought:

    On the previous Hellmouth article, someone posted about Nerd Revenge, suggesting that getting a better job, a better spouse, and a better car means that you "won" and the jock working at McDonalds "lost". I like to tell myself this, but I'm not so sure it is true.

    What does it mean that you won on these criterion? You sacrificed everything you cared about when you were oppressed in high school-- freedom, deep intellectual concerns, a love of good books and good stories, general geeki-ness, and tried to beat the popular croud at their own game. So now that you are rich, well dressed, have lots of friends, and are tied 24/7 to your cell phone doing internet consulting... have you won? You bought into their ideals and sacrificed what you cared about. Sleeping with that popular person's boyfriend (or girlfriend), driving a porsche, and having them get your fries isn't what winning at life is all about.

    To the people still stuck in school: Middle school was hell. High school was hell. If you are lucky, you manage to slide by on the sidelines, keep your D&D friends, keep your computer, and keep learning. If you aren't, someone "cracks down" on you and takes away the things that are expanding your universe. Life is infinitely better in college; you'll find more people like yourself, be able to control what you buy, what you watch, what you do. You will [mostly] be rewarded for being intelligent and dedicated.

    -m



  • Boarding school for geeks by RyanGWU82 (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @11:46AM
  • School Administrators by RyanGWU82 (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @01:48PM
  • *Yawn* recap.. by Ellis-D (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:38AM
  • wrong audience? Does the audience matter? by JohnZed (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:47AM
  • The Story. Part II by Tarnar (Score:2) Tuesday April 27 1999, @06:18PM
  • Maybe it is Guns in America &amp; Cars in Lond by zmower (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @11:44PM
  • Funny, no one wrote to Jon Katz about guns by zmower (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @12:05AM
  • Insist on tracking by WesBiggs (Score:2) Tuesday April 27 1999, @01:02PM
  • Whine, Whine.. by Corbett J. Klempay (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @01:03PM
  • Some kind of web site by Kodi (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:44AM
  • Conformity by Paul Wright (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @02:28AM
  • Its IS America...and guns especially by rico23 (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @02:13PM
  • The Story. Part II by laura20 (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @03:11PM
  • Is High School Really that bad? by Baron Fundi (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @03:14AM
  • The mainstream has gotten it all backwards by arodrig6 (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:18PM
  • We need an underground railroad for geeks by arodrig6 (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:40PM
  • It's a Two-Sided Sword by sporkboy (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:50AM
  • blind freedom by t0ast (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:26AM
  • Why the teachers/principals always get it wrong by Sonus (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:48AM
  • repercussions for the rest of us by wondermop (Score:2) Tuesday April 27 1999, @01:03PM
  • Look at who has the influence by PhunkyP (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:33AM
  • England is by no means perfect by Stephen Williams (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @10:47PM
  • beat that horse! by chrisperfer (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @06:01PM
  • Unfortunately, by DannyB (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:40PM
  • Academically advanced students in short supply? by Dr. Sp0ng (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:44AM
  • Maybe it is America.... by satori (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:13AM
  • Its IS America...and guns especially by satori (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @11:50AM
  • Diversity by modok (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @02:26PM
  • College that much better?? by Merk (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:08AM
  • Much, much better! by Merk (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @01:01PM
  • College that much better?? by Merk (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @01:06PM
  • Re:Should geeks go to High School?? by Merk (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @04:50AM
  • Re:Solution by Merk (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @04:53AM
  • Well, *something* has changed since we were kids. by dmorin (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:16AM
  • Is High School Really that bad? by delirium_9 (Score:2) Tuesday April 27 1999, @10:18AM
  • At leas one clueful article... by seanb (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:47PM
  • The 1969 case has since been nullified. by gwmccull (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @10:34PM
  • No excuse! by LocalH (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @03:57PM
  • Send ALL of this to a movie produser by GauteL (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @04:08AM
  • Again look deeper, at systemic issues by cjeris (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:22AM
  • Erm...I'm asking why? by Mock (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @04:51PM
  • A high school "jocks" view by jocknerd (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @04:53AM
  • Solutions - The Golden Age fallacy by hello_c (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @12:15PM
  • Re:Solutions - Try reading my post by hello_c (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @05:12PM
  • Socialization in Our Schools - The Real Danger by IntelliTubbie (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @09:10AM
  • Maybe it is America.... by ravenskana (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:12AM
  • general question by N3MCB (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:33AM
  • re: Take this to the Press ASAP. by elspud (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:11AM
  • Definitely not martyrs by AKAJack (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:41AM
  • Hey I think you're right.... by fReNeTiK (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @09:22AM
  • Lets have some perspective by remande (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @10:22AM
  • A Solution by remande (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @10:51AM
  • From John in the direct center of paradise by remande (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @11:24AM
  • Kids that crack (love and respect) by remande (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @02:44AM
  • Re:Send ALL of this to a movie produser by remande (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @04:52AM
  • Kids that crack (Score:5)

    by remande (31154) <remande@bigfooRA ... minus herbivore> on Tuesday April 27 1999, @09:33AM (#1914434) Homepage
    From an engineering perspective, these kids were operating way the hell out of design specifications.

    Every device ever engineered has a set of design specifications. The red line on your tachometer shows one. When you exceed the redline, your engine is going too fast for its own good and you can no longer guarantee that it won't tear itself to shreds and take you with it.

    In short, when something exceeds design specs, it can fail. By "fail", I mean to stop doing the job it was designed to do. Engines explode; bridges collapse; processors release blue smoke; software crashes.

    People have design specs as well. They're more flexible specs, because a person is a wonderfully complex system. Some design specs are physical, some are mental, some are emotional.

    People can only handle so much stress before they exceed their design specs and fail. When a person emotionally fails, they become irrational. In common parlance, they "lose it".

    Who here has not exceeded design specs and lost it? I've certainly lost it, and done some incredibly stupid things as a result. But for most of us, it is but a momentary lapse of reason. We lose it, we get out of (or distanced from) the source of acute stress, and we start operating like somewhat rational human beings again.

    And then there are people who have exceeded design specs so far, or so constantly, that they lose it and never get it back. In engineering terms, they have "failed" and not recovered. In common parlance, we call these people "sickos" or "psychos".

    If this were not bad enough, the fact that we're so complex (compared to machines, anyhow) means that we fail unpredictably. It's like a girder buckling under the pressure; you don't know when it will fail, nor in which direction. Psychology texts are full of ways that people fail to deal with stress. The psych texts are incomplete, and people come up with new failure modes. One of these failure modes is suicidal and homicidal mania.

    With all the profiling, the talk about games and bands and coats, people are trying to predict the failure mode. We worry about this kid because he's likely to crack by going postal; we don't worry about that kid because she's likely to crack by popping barbituates and dropping out.

    Trying to predict which people will fail by gunning people down is a fool's errand, because we can't tell which way a person will fail. If we can, psychology is incredibly advanced, and I'd love to see some of these psychologists working in engineering firms.

    We can tell if a person is likely to fail in any sense. We can't tell when somebody will fail, because we can't accurately gauge their tolerance for stress. We can look at a person, see what causes stress for them, see what relieves stress for them, and look for a mismatch. If the stress is far above the relief, then the stress will eventually surpass any person's capacity. That person is going to break, period.

    I can't tell you whether it is possible for a school to do this for students. If it is, it is very hard. It is possible for parents to do so, if they know how and if they care. As a nation (not necessarily as a government), we must give the parents that care the knowledge to look for this. As a nation and a government, we also must require that parents do care about the well-being of their kids, including their emotional well-being. Failure to do so is criminal neglect.

    The schools are trying to make themselves safe, due to the media-hyped school shootings. First and foremost, this is a laudable goal. I believe that our schools are acting in good faith, but with bad information and the wrong tools. I'd rather have this than have intentionally malicious people attacking this problem with good information and the right tools. People with good intentions can be trained; people with poor intentions can often only be restrained.

    To all the parents and school faculty reading this and actively dealing with the issues of this tragedy, thank you. You have the right intentions. Read this thread, not just this post. Arm yourself with the knowledge and tools you need to do the job effectively.

  • The U.S. Culture of Victimhood by rana (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @09:53AM
  • by Chris Andersen (31183) on Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:58AM (#1914436)
    Computer games, Goth, black trenchcoats, loud music...

    None of these things cause tragedies like the Littleton shootings.

    All of these things are merely attempts by isolated kids to create a means of expressing their pain in a way that DOESN'T involve getting a shotgun and blowing off the face of their tormentors. They are not not unhealthy influences that corrupt otherwise innocent minds. They are mechanisms we create in order to avoid giving into our unhealthy desires to haul off and wail away on our enemies.

    Suppressing these activities won't make the problem go away. If anything, this will simply limit the recourses these kids have and increase the possibility that they will resort to more violent modes of expression.
  • Katz is off base by Script Kiddie (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @12:16AM
  • Maybe it is America.... by O_D_Bear (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @09:45AM
  • Re:Jump on the bandwagon. . . by Paul Brown (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @08:48AM
  • Face a few facts yourself. by Melbert (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:13PM
  • Hated Opinion by flesh99 (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:27AM
  • More existentialism (was: Nerd Revenge) by paul r (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @06:56PM
  • Academically advanced students in short supply? by deacent (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:20AM
  • Should geeks go to High School?? by deacent (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @09:04AM
  • College that much better?? by deacent (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @09:27AM
  • Should geeks go to High School?? by deacent (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @03:05AM
  • College that much better?? by deacent (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @03:28AM
  • You can still do something by deacent (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @06:49AM
  • Its IS America...and guns especially by I R A Aggie (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @12:22PM
  • There are Happy Geeks Too by hey! (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @09:55AM
  • Humbug by hey! (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @11:33AM
  • Who is out of control? by hey! (Score:2) Tuesday April 27 1999, @09:20AM
  • Its IS America...and guns especially by itachi (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @12:08PM
  • This is prejudice by Gischer (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:46AM
  • Re:A high school "jocks" view by junk (Score:1) Friday April 30 1999, @06:40AM
  • Hell yeah man, you know it by Madhatter (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:47AM
  • Did you even read the message clips? by Madhatter (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @10:09AM
  • Slashdot provides the question-We hold the answer by Madhatter (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @10:17AM
  • There are others that feel like this Speak up! by Madhatter (Score:2) Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:07AM
  • Typical Polar Responses of the Herd! by redemption (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @01:57AM
  • Got to disagree ! or ? by cynicthe (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @02:27PM
  • Empire of dirt (Score:4)

    by Kitarra (33898) on Tuesday April 27 1999, @02:20PM (#1914462)
    I watched the news coverage of the Littleton Massacre with dawning horror.
    There was a feeling deep in the pit of my stomach that what was going on was more
    than just wrong for the kids of Littleton. I dread that this is going to make life so
    much harder for kids like them.

    When I was in high school I was an outcast by choice. I hung with the popular
    crowed for my entire freshman year. But I felt so fake around them. I wasn't
    myself. I did not enjoy the same things they did. I was not concerned with clothes
    or parties or dances. I wanted to play with my computer and read my fiction
    books. By that point I had read my entire grade school library and was well on my
    way to devouring the paltry sci-fi/fantasy section of my High School library.

    I met my real friend my sophomore year. We got to gather through a club on
    campus called the Fiction Federation. Most of us are still friends (I graduated in
    89). We were not popular then. Though we were a registered club, we had to fight
    to get into the year book. We had to fight for a room to have meetings in and for a
    teacher willing to be a mentor. But we were lucky we found each other. And
    because we found each other we became a type of gang. We looked after each
    others emotional needs. We understood each other even if our parents and peers
    did not.

    I am terrified that since the Littleton mess that there will be no more Fiction
    Federations. That no one will be willing to help the geeks. And more than that, I am
    afraid that the geeks themselves will be too afraid to reach out. It is hard enough in
    high school to reach out to another person. Harder still if you are shy and different
    and your interests are nothing like those of the people around you. But now these
    people are going to be alienated even further, if not by their peers but by their own
    feelings.

    Where as before they might have brought a fiction book in a shy attempt to attract
    the attention of someone like them (my best friend and I got together like this), now
    they will be too terrified to even do that. It breaks my heart to think of how many of
    these people will succumb to feelings of worthlessness. How many of them will
    suffer silently in the darkness of their lonely lives. I fear that while before, loneliness
    will drive them to make contact, now it will drive them to an more permanent
    solution to their torment.

    And it will not be just the geeks who suffer. The artists, the poets... any one who
    does not fit in. High school was a prison for so many of us. Now it will be a
    concentration camp. Saddest of all is that the same people who could be helping the
    outcasts will be adding to the hysteria. Administrators, teachers, counselors...
    instead of instilling a sense of trust in these kids will now be watching them with
    suspicion. Alienating them further.

    And how many of us had parents we could turn to? I certainly didn't. Neither did
    any of my friends. If we had net met each other, it might have been one of us with
    the guns and the bombs. Certainly I have seen that much rage in some of my peers.
    And back then I was the only one with a computer and a modem (BBS days).

    I pray for their sakes that these kids can find an outlet. That they find a support
    group on line if they cannot find one locally. Find people like them. People who will
    support them and their creative efforts... or programing efforts. We need to provide
    access to the internet in every school library. In ever library period. Not everybody
    has a computer. But everyone needs an outlet. I think that a lot of doors have been
    closed for kids like these. Time we opened some up.

    That's my two cents.
  • Response to wardrobe discrimination by MrDeviant (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @12:50PM
  • Nerd Revenge/Things get better? by An Ominous Cowbird (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @10:53AM
  • Collect the emails and publish? by virid (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @05:20PM
  • Re:Redundancy by heiberg (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @03:47AM
  • Great to see this wave of understanding but... by the ignorant masses (Score:2) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:35AM
  • The Story. Part II by Slinky (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:35AM
  • Solutions - There are none by kamileon (Score:2) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:52AM
  • Redundancy (Score:3)

    by kamileon (35033) on Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:43AM (#1914470)
    Jon, while I applaud your attention to these stories, you are beginning to get a little redundant. Instead of showing us more and more of the insanity which parents are willing to perpetrate (which doesn't really show me anything new or shocking), how about a little more attention to potential solutions, instead of this hand-wringing. We know how the horror goes. Many of us lived through it. While my deepest sympathies go out to these people, I feel that I am betraying them, if the only thing I can do is sit around and say how horrible it is. That makes us as bad as the regular media.

    What can we, as a community, do about it?

  • Similar story happened in Russia (with an adult) by beholder (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @04:27PM
  • My experiences... by penguinboy (Score:1) Thursday May 06 1999, @02:22PM
  • Re:"The land of the Free" by penguinboy (Score:1) Friday May 07 1999, @09:50AM
  • HOMESCHOOLING by Kento (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @03:01PM
  • Erm...I'm asking why? by {*} (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @03:44PM
  • Whine, Whine.. by Jason R (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @06:34PM
  • All it takes for evil to triumph... by coyote-san (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @11:37AM
  • Abuse of authority! by coyote-san (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @12:07PM
  • Charter schools by coyote-san (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @03:27PM
  • Trenchcoats by coyote-san (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @03:43PM
  • Solutions - There are none by Kohath (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:05AM
  • Solutions - There are none by Kohath (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:57AM
  • Solutions - Try reading my post by Kohath (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @05:20PM
  • A Solution that makes things worse by Kohath (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @05:25PM
  • Funny, no one wrote to Jon Katz about guns by Kohath (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @06:25PM
  • Re:Funny, no one wrote to Jon Katz about guns by Kohath (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @05:14AM
  • Maybe it is America.... by number6 (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @12:35PM
  • Kids that crack (love and respect) by sufi (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @11:37PM
  • We need an underground railroad for geeks by apirkle (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @01:10PM
  • Re:My escape was drugs by zaw (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @05:22AM
  • Re:Nerd Revenge/Things get better? by zaw (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @05:26AM
  • Academically advanced students in short supply? by crazymennonite (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @10:35AM
  • High school hell was all worth it when......... by bluesclues (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:37AM
  • Teachers by parvati (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @05:58PM
  • My view of The Zen of it all by Jeff Archambeault (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @04:44PM
  • Maybe it is America.... by DdR (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:15AM
  • Public education was NOT a Jeffersonian dream by Stormhound (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @03:50AM
  • Update from the Geek-Profiling dept. by Dark Angel (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @01:11PM
  • It doesn't ALWAYS get better after school... by funaho (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:55PM
  • Its IS America...and guns especially by Steve B (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @05:22PM
  • I have little sympathy by Steve B (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @05:31PM
  • Academically advanced students in short supply? by Steve B (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @05:39PM
  • Sports are not inherently evil. by Steve B (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @06:18PM
  • All it takes for evil to triumph... by Steve B (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @01:29AM
  • It's a Two-Sided Sword by AhNewBis (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:30AM
  • A Different Perspective by VegWill (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:45AM
  • Who is to blame really? by Griswold (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:59AM
  • The Story. Part II by Petruchio1 (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @09:59AM
  • It doesn't ALWAYS get better after school... by visigoth (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @10:02AM
  • The Story. Part II (Score:3)

    by ashkte (43047) on Tuesday April 27 1999, @09:58AM (#1914510)
    ok, first of all, expect no quotes/single quotes. they are not getting translated properly. we shall see what other symbols do not come across properly.

    i am 30, female, a mother, and a fringe geek chick. basically, i like being around people more intelligent than i am. while good enough for work standards with a puter (and could be better if i pushed it) i am working more on developing the >>people>too busy>group
    anyway ... my point, you ask? intelligence shaped the right way can be a benefit to everyone. open your eyes, yes, educators; stop thinking the world revolves around sports and athletics. when the body is old and feeble, what are you left with, if you have never worked to develop your mind?

    but by that same token, i made it through high school without ever hurting anyone. and i made it through a home life that was actually more traumatic than high school was, and i made it out alive. yes, geeks, nerds, what-have-you -- you are the upper class when it comes to brains and intelligence.

    i do not say this to say that it gets easier, or that one should sit idly by and allow oneself or a friend to be abused. but look at what MADD has done in this country about drunk driving in the last 20 years, alone. if you cry, do not keep it inside. find an outlet, raise your voice, be heard, speak up, ask for help and ask and ask again, until you are heard.

    but keep your fist to your side, unless to defend yourself from physical harm. let us speak to those parents who are too busy to make time for their children, let us teach them. let us speak to the educators, to the media; let us open eyes and minds to what is truly a horrendous situation. yes, yes, i am preaching to the choir. but if this goes beyond slashdot.org, then perhaps some parents will begin to twinge with guilt, and some educators to sit back and say, well now. maybe i SHOULD open my eyes.

    because -- take my word for it people -- this is not the end of it. it begins one person at a time, but things have a way of growing. let us see if we cannot influence the right things to begin growing, rather than a public outpouring of hatred. this is the easiest thing to do, to hate a group or class for what one or two of its fellows did. but i think we should push for something with a little more weight behind it; something like personal responsibility, and parental responsibility.

    and open-mindedness would not be so bad, either!
  • Television shows by OttBear (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @10:27AM
  • What highschool was to me by OttBear (Score:2) Tuesday April 27 1999, @10:18AM
  • Maybe it is public education... by Alanzilla (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @11:12AM
  • College is what you make of it by Flashback Fred (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @11:04AM
  • There is obviously something wrong by bahwi (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @10:41AM
  • by Cheshyre (43113) on Tuesday April 27 1999, @02:05PM (#1914516) Homepage
    [Hey, I'm a library science student -- I love this kind of research]

    If you want to find out just what your rights are as a student, go to http://www.aclu.org/issues/student/hmes.html, which solely focuses on the civil liberties of students.

    Several "Student Briefer" documents deliniate what rights you actually have.
    • http://www.aclu.org/students/slfree.html covers free expression, including dress codes and censorship issues.
    • http://www.aclu.org/students/slprivacy.html discusses privacy issues, including what to do when a school official or police officer wants to question or search you.
    • http://www.aclu.org/students/slfair.html has information on fair treatment and due process -- permissible school punishment and what rights you have if threatened with suspension.

    Again, a couple excerpts:

    FREE EXPRESSION:

    In 1969 in Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District the Supreme Court held that students in public schools -- which are run by the government -- do not leave their First Amendment rights at the schoolhouse gate. This means that you can express your opinions orally and in writing -- in leaflets or on buttons, armbands or T-shirts.

    You have a right to express your opinions as long as you do so in a way that doesn't "materially and substantially" disrupt classes or other school activities.
    If you hold a protest on the school steps and block the entrance to the building, school officials can stop you. They can probably also stop you from using language that they think is "vulgar or indecent," so watch out for the dirty words, OK?

    Also, school officials may not censor only one side of a controversy. If they permit an article in the official school paper that says that premarital sex is bad, they may not censor an article that says premarital sex is good.
    . . .
    If you think your school's dress codes and hair codes are unfair and you want to challenge them, be aware that a court probably won't overturn the codes unless the judge finds that they're really unreasonable, or that they're discriminatory.

    PRIVACY:

    You've all heard cops on TV or in the movies say, "you have the right to remain silent..." Well, that's exactly what you should do if the police ask you questions. Remember anything you say can be used against you.

    Just give the police your name and address and say you want to speak to your parents and a lawyer. As soon as you do that, the police must stop questioning you.

    The police aren't allowed to search you unless they have a warrant signed by a judge or unless they are arresting you. However, if they believe that you have a weapon, they can frisk you, and if they feel a weapon, they can then search you. If the cops ask to search you or your car, don't resist the search, but let them know that you don't consent to it.
    . . .
    You have the right to remain silent if you're questioned by a school official. Usually there is no problem with answering a few questions to clear something up. But if you think that a teacher suspects you of having committed a crime, don't explain, don't lie and don't confess, because anything you say could be used against you. Ask to see your parents or a lawyer.

    The Supreme Court ruled in 1985 in New Jersey v. T.L.O. that school officials, unlike police, may search students without a warrant when they have "reasonable grounds for suspecting that the search will turn up evidence that the student has violated... either the law or rules of the school." But school officials may not search you unless they have a good reason to believe that you in particular -- not just "someone" -- broke a law or a school rule.

    So, if a teacher thinks she saw you selling drugs to another student, she can ask you to empty your pockets and can search your backpack. But just because they think some students have drugs doesn't give them the authority to search all students.

    And no matter what, the search must be conducted in a "reasonable" way, based on your age and what they're looking for. Strip searching is illegal in many states, and where it is allowed, there has to be a solid reason to suspect a particular student of having committed a really serious crime.

    In some states, courts have ruled that a student's locker is school property, so the school can search it. But in other states, school officials must have "reasonable suspicion" that you are hiding something illegal before they can search your locker. Your local ACLU can fill you in on your state laws. But here's a word to the wise: don't keep anything in your locker that you wouldn't want other people to see.

    DUE PROCESS/FAIR TREATMENT:

    The Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution guarantees everyone in the United States something called "due process of law," which means you have the right to be treated fairly by people who are in positions of authority -- teachers, school administrators, -- and the police.

    Let's say a teacher or school official accuses you of having done something wrong and wants to suspend you. Well, they can't just throw you out! You have a right to a hearing so you can tell your side of the story. This right was established by the U.S. Supreme Court way back in 1975 when it decided a case called Goss v. Lopez that involved some high school students who had been suspended without a hearing.

    Another thing: if you're found guilt of something, the punishment can't be more serious than the misconduct was. So your school can't suspend you for just a minor violation. Or for something other kids did and only got detention for.
    . . .
    No matter how long the suspension, you have a right to notice of the charges against you -- that means being told exactly what you did that was wrong. You also have the right to a hearing before a person or people who are impartial, meaning they don't have anything to do with the incident, and they don't have any attitude towards you one way or the other.

    If you deny the charges, the school officials have to tell you what evidence they have, and give you the chance to tell your side of the story. And if you're facing serious punishment, like suspension for more than 10 days, you have the right to be represented by a lawyer who can call witnesses. You also have the right to question or cross-examine your accusers and the witnesses against you. And you have the right to ask that a record be made of everything that happens at the hearing. You can use this record if you decide to appeal the decision.

    But you don't have the right to a hearing for a minor punishment, such as being made to sit at the back of the class or detention.

    The only way you school can suspend or expel a student without notice or a hearing is if they think the student is a danger to other students or to school property. But even then, they're obligated by law to give the student notice and a hearing as soon as possible after the expulsion.
    . . .
    And schools don't have the right to punish you if you broke a rule you had no reason to know even existed.

    So you do have protections. Obviously, you'll have to check the rules at your school district, but if the officials mistreat you, make a stink. The more people who hear how ludicrious these policies are, the quicker they'll be dissolved. Try these on for size:
    • You can't be punished for violating the dress code unless they clearly told you beforehand what the rules are.
    • If a school official wants to search you, demand to know their reasons.
    • If officials insist on punishing you, make them explain exactly why they are punishing you. Not the general charge, like "dress code violations" but get specific -- coat was too long, outfit too black, whatever their excuse. That could sound extremely silly before an impartial hearing.
      If you think you can win, challenge it.
    • The punishment can't be more serious than the misconduct. So what punishments are less serious than a dress code violation? Changing outfits or a brief detention.
    • If you don't want to use ignorance as a defence, then go the other way.
      Ask the school for a written copy of their dress code. Get every detail. If they use a vague phrase like "Gothic attire" then demand an exact definition of what exactly is forbidden clothing. Then find all the loopholes or places where rules are arbitrary, unreasonable and/or discriminatory.
      Can't bar hats unless there's an exception for yamulkes (Religious Jews keep their head covered at all times). If nobody is allowed to dress in black, then what are people in mourning supposed to do? If combat boots are prohibited, then what happens to ROTC? If miniskirts are forbidden, find out how many inches that is.
      Now you have three options:
      1. Dress as provocatively as you can while always staying within the loopholes. [Wear skirts 1/2 inch longer than the limit. If all-black outfits are forbidden, wear mostlyblack. In my high school, students couldn't wear shorts, but girls could still wear skirts. So a large group of guys started wearing miniskirts to class.]
      2. Be good little citizens and point out all the "good" kids who are also violating these new rules. If combat boots are forbidden, make the hall monitors write up the ROTC. If all black wardrobe is verbotten, ticket the entire swim team. Either the school will refuse to apply the code in these situations (which proves discriminatory enforcement) or the popular kids will get so fed up that theywill get these codes repealed.
      3. Or, if you find enough holes, go ahead and challenge them in court.

    Hope this information / these ideas helped. If there's a local branch of the ACLU in your neighborhood, they may have the specific rules for your neck of the wood. Otherwise, I do enjoy digging for data like this, so if you have further questions, post them as a response and I'll see what I can find out.
  • by Cheshyre (43113) on Tuesday April 27 1999, @11:17AM (#1914517) Homepage
    Schools have sent gothic children home to change clothes, confiscated students' trenchcoats and books, forced some kids into counseling, and suspended, warned and otherwise punished students solely due to their wardrobes. Wardrobes, mind you, that were no different than what they wore without incident only one week ago. The Federal Way school district in Washington State passed an ordinance forbidding anyone from wearing trenchcoats or dressing in all black (I guess mourners are just out of luck, huh?)

    But this is still America, where the Constitution promises us freedom of speech, the right to peaceably assemble, and security against unreasonable search and seizures without probable cause.

    Take a look at the 1969 Supreme Court case called Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School Disctrict. This argument could be very helpful for people trying to challenge these prejuicial policies.

    In summary:
    Petitioners, three public school pupils in Des Moines, Iowa, were suspended from school for wearing black armbands to protest the Government's policy in Vietnam. They sought nominal damages and an injunction against a regulation that the respondents had promulgated banning the wearing of armbands. The District Court dismissed the complaint on the ground that the regulation was within the Board's power, despite the absence of any finding of substantial interference with the conduct of school activities. The Court of Appeals, sitting en banc, affirmed by an equally divided court.

    The Supreme Court ruled in favor of the students, noting that:
    1. In wearing armbands, the petitioners were quiet and passive. They were not disruptive, and did not impinge upon the rights of others. In these circumstances, their conduct was within the protection of the Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment and the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth.

    2. First Amendment rights are available to teachers and students, subject to application in light of the special characteristics of the school environment.
    3. A prohibition against expression of opinion, without any evidence that the rule is necessary to avoid substantial interference with school discipline or the rights of others, is not permissible under the First and Fourteenth Amendments.

    To read the full text of the decision, go to http://caselaw.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navb y=case&court=US&vol=393&page=503 or go to http://www.findlaw.com/casecode/supreme.html and perform a citation search for 393 US 503.

    There are some really good arguments here, and it doesn't get too bogged down in legalese. Much of it is still relevant to the recent cases wardrobe harassment. The following extracts all come from the full decision:
    The District Court recognized that the wearing of an armband for the purpose of expressing certain views is the type of symbolic act that is within the Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment.


    As we shall discuss, the wearing of armbands in the circumstances of this case was entirely divorced from actually or potentially disruptive conduct by those participating in it. It was closely akin to "pure speech" [393 U.S. 503, 506] which, we have repeatedly held, is entitled to comprehensive protection under the First Amendment.

    First Amendment rights, applied in light of the special characteristics of the school environment, are available to teachers and students. It can hardly be argued that either students or teachers shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate. This has been the unmistakable holding of this Court for almost 50 years.

    The Fourteenth Amendment, as now applied to the States, protects the citizen against the State itself and all of its creatures - Boards of Education not excepted. These have, of course, important, delicate, and highly discretionary functions, but none that they may not perform within the limits of the Bill of Rights. That they are educating the young for citizenship is reason for scrupulous protection of Constitutional freedoms of the individual, if we are not to strangle the free mind at its source and teach youth to discount important principles of our government as mere platitudes."

    The school officials banned and sought to punish petitioners for a silent, passive expression of opinion, unaccompanied by any disorder or disturbance on the part of petitioners. There is here no evidence whatever of petitioners' interference, actual or nascent, with the schools' work or of collision with the rights of other students to be secure and to be let alone. Accordingly, this case does not concern speech or action that intrudes upon the work of the schools or the rights of other students.
    Only a few of the 18,000 students in the school system wore the black armbands. Only five students were suspended for wearing them. There is no indication that the work of the schools or any class was disrupted. Outside the classrooms, a few students made hostile remarks to the children wearing armbands, but there were no threats or acts of violence on school premises.
    The District Court concluded that the action of the school authorities was reasonable because it was based upon their fear of a disturbance from the wearing of the armbands. But, in our system, undifferentiated fear or apprehension of disturbance is not enough to overcome the right to freedom of expression. Any departure from absolute regimentation may cause trouble. Any variation from the majority's opinion may inspire fear. Any word spoken, in class, in the lunchroom, or on the campus, that deviates from the views of another person may start an argument or cause a disturbance. But our Constitution says we must take this risk, Terminiello v. Chicago, 337 U.S. 1 (1949); and our history says that it is this sort of hazardous freedom - this kind of openness - that is [393 U.S. 503, 509] the basis of our national strength and of the independence and vigor of Americans who grow up and live in this relatively permissive, often disputatious, society.
    In order for the State in the person of school officials to justify prohibition of a particular expression of opinion, it must be able to show that its action was caused by something more than a mere desire to avoid the discomfort and unpleasantness that always accompany an unpopular viewpoint. Certainly where there is no finding and no showing that engaging in the forbidden conduct would "materially and substantially interfere with the requirements of appropriate discipline in the operation of the school," the prohibition cannot be sustained. Burnside v. Byars, supra, at 749.
    In the present case, the District Court made no such finding, and our independent examination of the record fails to yield evidence that the school authorities had reason to anticipate that the wearing of the armbands would substantially interfere with the work of the school or impinge upon the rights of other students. Even an official memorandum prepared after the suspension that listed the reasons for the ban on wearing the armbands made no reference to the anticipation of such disruption.
    On the contrary, the action of the school authorities appears to have been based upon an urgent wish to avoid the controversy which might result from the expression, even by the silent symbol of armbands, of opposition to this Nation's part in the conflagration in Vietnam.4 It is revealing, in this respect, that the meeting at which the school principals decided to issue the contested regulation was called in response to a student's statement to the journalism teacher in one of the schools that he wanted to write an article on Vietnam and have it published in the school paper.
    It is also relevant that the school authorities did not purport to prohibit the wearing of all symbols of political or controversial significance. The record shows that students in some of the schools wore buttons relating to national political campaigns, and some even wore the Iron Cross, traditionally a symbol of Nazism. The order prohibiting the wearing of armbands did not extend to these. Instead, a particular symbol - black armbands worn to exhibit opposition to this Nation's involvement [393 U.S. 503, 511] in Vietnam - was singled out for prohibition. Clearly, the prohibition of expression of one particular opinion, at least without evidence that it is necessary to avoid material and substantial interference with schoolwork or discipline, is not constitutionally permissible.
    In our system, state-operated schools may not be enclaves of totalitarianism. School officials do not possess absolute authority over their students. Students in school as well as out of school are "persons" under our Constitution. They are possessed of fundamental rights which the State must respect, just as they themselves must respect their obligations to the State. In our system, students may not be regarded as closed-circuit recipients of only that which the State chooses to communicate. They may not be confined to the expression of those sentiments that are officially approved. In the absence of a specific showing of constitutionally valid reasons to regulate their speech, students are entitled to freedom of expression of their views. As Judge Gewin, speaking for the Fifth Circuit, said, school officials cannot suppress "expressions of feelings with which they do not wish to contend."

    As we have discussed, the record does not demonstrate any facts which might reasonably have led school authorities to forecast substantial disruption of or material interference with school activities, and no disturbances or disorders on the school premises in fact occurred. These petitioners merely went about their ordained rounds in school. Their deviation consisted only in wearing on their sleeve a band of black cloth, not more than two inches wide. They wore it to exhibit their disapproval of the Vietnam hostilities and their advocacy of a truce, to make their views known, and, by their example, to influence others to adopt them. They neither interrupted school activities nor sought to intrude in the school affairs or the lives of others. They caused discussion outside of the classrooms, but no interference with work and no disorder. In the circumstances, our Constitution does not permit officials of the State to deny their form of expression.


    So, if you are still wearing Goth clothing to make a statement you may have a case here. If you do get harassed by officials, see what they make out of this. And otherwise contact your local ACLU, who may be in a position to help.
  • Nerd Revenge/Things get better? by bigjohn (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @11:50AM
  • One more experience from an older person by Bearitone (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @12:51PM
  • Were they Geeks??? Is is O.K. to be a Nazi? by fauxwings (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @01:09PM
  • The killers were EVIL. May or may not be geek. by fauxwings (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @01:14PM
  • You know what? by fauxwings (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @01:23PM
  • Response to wardrobe discrimination by fauxwings (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @01:38PM
  • Segregating smart kids won't work by tEbIng (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @01:57PM
  • You aren't alone. by Kenneth (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @03:41PM
  • I'm a geek 2...BUT by Jenithea (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @04:11PM
  • You miss the point. by Yupi (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @05:17PM
  • Let's try this again by Yupi (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @06:29PM
  • Maybe its time to stop funding the jocks by thogard (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @06:27PM
  • It's time to SUE SUE SUE!! by DavidP (Score:2) Tuesday April 27 1999, @07:47PM
  • teachers come from the bottom 1/3 of college stude by phulish (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @09:01PM
  • Re:Shocking, but Not Surprising by mom/of/boys (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @08:35AM
  • Re:Were they Geeks??? Is is O.K. to be a Nazi? by mom/of/boys (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @08:53AM
  • Re:A high school "jocks" view by mom/of/boys (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @09:09AM
  • Re:nerds can be oppressors,too by mom/of/boys (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @09:26AM
  • Re:It can happen ANYWHERE. Canadian kid shoots two by mom/of/boys (Score:1) Thursday April 29 1999, @06:42AM
  • Re:There are others that feel like this Speak up! by Bostongrrl (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @09:50AM
  • Re:Am I the ONLY one? by noire (Score:1) Thursday May 06 1999, @10:27PM
  • Am I the ONLY one? by Roeperian (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @08:03PM
  • Re:HOMESCHOOLING by Tia (Score:1) Sunday May 02 1999, @08:17PM
  • Re:Living in the "Subdivisions" by fable2112 (Score:1) Friday May 07 1999, @03:57AM
  • To all self-professed geeks, plus spiel on society by tofuman (Score:1) Tuesday May 11 1999, @08:15PM
  • Dammit!! by zantispam (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @12:55PM
  • They won't give up by zantispam (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @01:11PM
  • Stop whining and stand up for yourself by Russian (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @09:16AM
  • An outside view of the situation. by try67 (Score:1) Wednesday April 28 1999, @01:56AM
  • wrong audience? not necessarily. by denial (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @03:22PM
  • ...yicky formatting... by denial (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @03:23PM
  • Dry your eyes audience, and grow up. by denial (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @03:29PM
  • I liked a "Tanya" -- And if you do, TELL HER! by denial (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @03:32PM
  • Whine, Whine.. by denial (Score:2) Tuesday April 27 1999, @03:19PM
  • The geek shall inherit the earth by JJC (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:16AM
  • Re:The killers were EVIL. May or may not be geek. by ninsaki (Score:1) Wednesday May 12 1999, @08:12AM
  • From John in the direct center of paradise by Jart (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @09:20AM
  • Thoughts on the 'Littleton Massacre' by JayK (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:59PM
  • Spreading the word- by JayK (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @09:01PM
  • School was Hell, and the scars linger... by Drifter (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @04:59PM
  • "The land of the Free" by TommyV (Score:1) Saturday May 01 1999, @08:34AM
  • The Story. Part II by Bridge (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @11:23AM
  • spreading the word by reive (Score:1) Tuesday April 27 1999, @08:49AM
  • 149 replies beneath your current threshold.
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